Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #3: Martha err i mean Marth

[TheJerm]

Stopping our boomerang can be used to our advantage. Do you guys only use your projectiles for damage? They can be used to control your opponent and I dont think some of you tinks know that.

 

[Sosuke]

Boomerangs are for messing with short hops, onstage.

 

[Jash]

55/45 Marth, its only because is tipper kills us at ridiculously low percentages, and any Marth can get lucky with one of those. Other then that it can be pretty even.

 

[Remzi]

55/45 Marth, its only because is tipper kills us at ridiculously low percentages, and any Marth can get lucky with one of those. Other then that it can be pretty even.

It's more good spacing than it is luck...

 

[TLMSheikant]

^ In some cases it isnt good spacing lolol.

 

[copacetic]

I don't play marth and I can tipper half his moves consistently. The good spacing should come fairly naturally for pro marths. The lucky part is getting us to make a mistake and leave ourselves open in tipper range, and then "any Marth can get lucky with one of those" and get an early kill.

 

[Remzi]

I don't play marth and I can tipper half his moves consistently. The good spacing should come fairly naturally for pro marths. The lucky part is getting us to make a mistake and leave ourselves open in tipper range, and then "any Marth can get lucky with one of those" and get an early kill.

Still not lucky, thats just punishment for a mistake. And even then, a well spaced Marth in most casees is not in position for a tipper Fsmash. They are usually in position for a tipper dtilt or fair. It's harder than you think to land a tipped fsmash, and its hella unsafe.

 

[TLMSheikant]

45-55 Marth

Best Stage to fight Marth on:

Worst Stage to fight Marth on:

Matchup Summary:

Marth is very agile and overall a balanced character. He relies on his sword and range to keep his opponents at bay. He outranges Toon Link which is a problem. The only move Toon link has that outranges him is Zair. At times, it may be difficult to camp marth because his sword destroys boomerangs and arrows on contact. Remember to use your proyectiles to force reactions and punish them. Bombs are great in this matchup. As they set him up for your sword. At long range, Toon Link has the advantage. Unfortunately Marth is very fast and closes gaps quickly. Avoid being in tipper range at all times. At point blank range we have the advantage over Marth but remember that it will be hard to get to point blank range against a marth with good spacing. Killing is kinda even, Marth's kill moves are very unsafe except for tipper neutral air and that is sometimes hard to hit with. Toon Link isnt so safe at killing either but generally doesnt have too much trouble putting Marth in the air above him and getting the kill. Marth is horrible against people below him, abuse this with bair, upair, etc while reading their airdodge or reaction. Marth also has a lackluster recovery and can be gimped fairly easy but Marth can also gimp Toon Link.

A Marth will generally be spacing with fairs, dtilt and baiting reactions to punish with his dancing blade. His dancing blade is annoying. If you shield it, hold your shield until he completes it and then grab/nair him OoS. Beware as the Marth can also trick you with DB1 into holding your shield and then grabbing you. If Marth grabs Toon Link at 0% he can fthrow>fsmash you without any hope of escaping. Against Marth you will want to avoid small stages. Counterpick/go to big stages. Best stages to fight Marth on are FD because there are no platforms and theres a lot of room to camp, Halberd because of the low ceiling and there's enough room to camp especially in the ship and norfair because you can camp him to death and it makes it easier to kill him. Battlefield is bad because its a small stage allowing him to close the gap easier and Marth loves platforms.

Also, Marth's usual juggling game isnt as effective against Toon Link thanks to the options he has to defend himself against juggling: ibomb, bomb drops, bomb throws and the rare and risky down air. Remember to DI up if Marth hits you offstage with his fair. Also, if you manage to hit him with a down smash at the edge of the stage(as rare as that may be) its an auto stock loss for the Marth.

TL;DR- use proyectiles to bait Marth and punish his reactions, get him above you, gimp him, dont get gimped yourself.

 

[Remzi]

Sheikant, I agree with you for the most part. Except I'd say that at point blank we are about even. Also, the fact that tipper range is such a large advantage for Marth, and that's where we will be for most of the match, it's safe to say we have at least a 55:45 advantage. Also, Marth has better tools for dealing with his disadvantageous areas.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

Even 50-50

No way in hell that the matchup is even, he has a slight advantage, 55/45 Marth. If you think its even you never faced a really good Marth. Ask Marth mains, they know they got an advantage, I should know. I used to main Marth for a long time, now he's my secondary.

 

[TheJerm]

I've beaten every marth I played in tournament, and only lost to one marth ever in a MM. And it was because I got gimped because of a dumb mistake. Not my character's weakness. After playing great marths like roy r, they tell me its even also. Its not that we TL's havnt played good marths, its because marths havnt played the few viable TL's.

 

[Remzi]

RoyR and other top Marths in most cases have far less experience against TL then the good TLs have against Marth. Because Marth is obviously the more popular tournament character. This is probably a reason TLs are able to do well against Marth. But statistically and theoretically, Marth wins.

Jerm, you are attributing your wins against Marth to your character. When it's just that you are outplaying your opponents.

The facts are all there, once Marth is inside, he is in there for a while. He has a large advantage at tipper range and can control the match. He sets the pace, TL has to react to him and it's near impossible for TL to apply pressure from that zone. At long range, TL obviously wins, but Marth does not have much difficulty getting through projectiles.

Thats just my input, I don't think you guys should be setting the ratio to anything other than 55:45 or 60:40, in Marths favor. It's not even, and it's certainly not ****. Marth just has a decent advantage.

 

[TheJerm]

Roy R prlly has the most TL exp out of all the marths. Having two top TL's in texas, and I live 15 min away from him. We play semi often. And here's the way I look at it, might be wrong, but whatever..

If no marth can beat a TL, in what way is it your advantage? If I was to consistantly beat all the marths, that means the top of marths metagame cant beat the top of TL's metagame. You guys can say you have all the tools and crap, but if none of you can actually back up what you are saying, then its irrelevant to me xD

 

[Remzi]

Which Marths have you played? I know you play RoyR and I'll assume you've played takeurlife. But those are the only ones I can think of in Texas. Until you've played Neo, MikeHAZE, Kadaj, and other top Marths, is it really fair to make that assessment?

TBH, I don't think any Marth knows that matchup like I do. I've played it and studied it to the bone.

I probably can't change your mind via text, I guess I'll have to wait until you run into a Marth that you can't handle

side note: we should wi-fi again, those were fun last time haha

 

[TheJerm]

You said you know the match up well, and i beat you on wifi, my first day on wifi too. I've played mikehaze, and thats the marth that I made the mistake on that I mentioned earlier. I Had a big lead game 3 last stock, but I jumped off the stage and started messing around under him. And he got a spike. He even told me he got lucky after the match. Also, I've played broly, beaten him in two MM's. Broly is a great marth. I've beaten Dphat too, another good marth. He wont even play marth against me anymore. And i've beat takeyourlife more than once. I'll just have to beat neo and kadaj too. >=]

 

[Sosuke]

sup I'm Jerm

I **** Marths like it was no thing

 

[TLMSheikant]

sup I'm Jerm.

I **** Marths and when they **** me I have SD johns.

 

[Remzi]

You said you know the match up well, and i beat you on wifi, my first day on wifi too. I've played mikehaze, and thats the marth that I made the mistake on that I mentioned earlier. I Had a big lead game 3 last stock, but I jumped off the stage and started messing around under him. And he got a spike. He even told me he got lucky after the match. Also, I've played broly, beaten him in two MM's. Broly is a great marth. I've beaten Dphat too, another good marth. He wont even play marth against me anymore. And i've beat takeyourlife more than once. I'll just have to beat neo and kadaj too. >=]

Marth is hindered on wi-fi more than almost every other character, this is known. It's difficult to space and it becomes even harder for him to kill. Also, the fact that I couldn't PS projectiles (again thanks to wi-fi) is huuuuuge as I pretty much PS everything TL throws at me.

I'm not saying I'd beat you irl, because even though it's wi-fi, you can stll tell how good somebody is for the most part, and I know you are sick and overall better than me, lol. But you still can't count it as a totally legit match, especially considering how close they were, not like i got ***** or anything.

And I had that SD on game 3 when I was winning by like 60% >.> You did SD after that, which was cool, but it was still 60% down the drain and the match came down to last hit.

But lol, looks like you've cleaned up every Marth you've played besides Haze (sorta), so its gonna be difficult to convince you that Marth has the advantage. But yea, you haven't played any EC Marths and they are the best ones IMO (Neo, Kadaj, Pierce, etc.).

No disrespect intended in anything I've said, imo you're the 2nd best TL after Jash. Keep it up

 

[TheJerm]

Haha, thanks. I'm not trying to convince anyone that its TL's advantage, just that its even. But I already knew I wasnt gonna have much support on this from the start. And in the end, it doesnt matter much. Just because people say its a certain characters advantage wont change the way my TL plays and your marth either. Hopefully we can meet some day and have a real match =]

 

[Remzi]

Great post, the ratio really doesn't matter. Am I gonna lose to a TL in tournament just because the ratio took a 10 point swing against Marth? No, I'm gonna play it the same way I would if it was considered 90:10.

And yea dude, hopefully you can come down to MD/VA some time =D

 

[takeurlife2]

Hi im jerm and im probably better than everyone in this thread and ya im pretty good against martheven the great takeurlife

 

[Hyro]

Jerm.

I've played some of the marths you mentioned...

...just...just play Lee. For various reasons. Not only is he one of the best brawl players nationally...the fact of how well he knows this matchup and how he is ridiculous at powershielding (which is the main thing so don't judge wifi) makes this as hard as we're making it out to be.

Oh, have you ever had a tourney set with RoyR???

 

[TheJerm]

I never judged anything regarding lee. The thing is, Lee might just know how you play. And because of that, he's ****** you.You and him both told me that you guys play alot. I've played roy r in play n trade tournaments. back in like my first month of brawl. He won of course, but I doubt you wanna count things like that. TL wasnt even developed, and marth either. Plus, roy was a melee master, while I was a fresh noob =]

 

[takeurlife2]

hyro too good

 

[TheJerm]

Haha, its ok. You dont have to change your opinion, only person who really agree'd with me fromt he beginning was chipsies lol. I'll just have to beat neo for you guys ;]

Told you guys, me and chip know whats up =].

Chip beat Mike Haze today at genesis!! 80/20 TL =] lol jk, but its sounding pretty even to me people

 

[BRLNK88]

Its 50:50, and I refuse to believe otherwise.
Marth counters with Battlefield, Toon Link counters with FD.
Even match-up.
Not to mention, Tink shouldn't have any real problems finishing Marth. Just get below him, and he'll be a slave to utilt or uair. Marth is tall, and light-weight. Not to mention Tink gimps the **** out of him.
And nothing upsets a Marth player more than bombs, he has no real answer to them.
I've played plenty of Marths, and have never had any real problems with the match-up. Even on Battlefield I've done quite well.

 

[Steel]

hey guys i hear toon links meta game has changed a lot n stuff so this match is prolly wayyy diff now so um oh wait

Why do people keep saying someone is underestimating blah blah blah?

We ain't here to talk anyone's character up. We ain't here to be like, " oh well despite the fact that Marth wins TL is still a really good character cuz blah blah I-don't-give-a-D*MN!"

This is match-up discussion. You look at the characters tools and you call it like you see it based on that evidence.

We aren't here to be nice to the characters. We are here to talk about the match-up. And guess what?

There ain't much to talk about. The match is straight forward.

Baiting and blah blah, that's just player dependent stuff and that's stuff you will need to adapt to as you face better players.

TL has projectiles. Marth has the air game and the ground game and just a better movelists overall.

Marth wins due to TL's limitations as a character.

/done

Why didn't that post a few months ago end this stupid match up discussion for all time?

and not only that ^

Marth's sword has more range and is FASTER.

More range... and faster... And this **** is even? GTFO

Not to mention when you're pressured Tink can't do SH*T. Tinks roll is horrid. No glide toss to escape. It comes down to power shielding and spot dodging. THIS IS EVEN RIGHT?

And don't give me retreating zair bs. It's very easy to contend with and if that's all you have when being zoned... a measily 5%... Plus the fact you are jumping backwards puts you in a spot to get tipper fsmashed. The risk far outweighs the reward.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

hey guys i hear toon links meta game has changed a lot n stuff so this match is prolly wayyy diff now so um oh wait



Why didn't that post a few months ago end this stupid match up discussion for all time?

and not only that ^

Marth's sword has more range and is FASTER.

More range... and faster... And this **** is even? get out plz

Not to mention when you're pressured Tink can't do ****. Tinks roll is horrid. No glide toss to escape. It comes down to power shielding and spot dodging. THIS IS EVEN RIGHT?

And don't give me retreating zair bs. It's very easy to contend with and if that's all you have when being zoned... a measily 5%... Plus the fact you are jumping backwards puts you in a spot to get tipper fsmashed. The risk far outweighs the reward.

I completely agree with you. Marth has the advantage. I disagree with the Toon Link boards. Marth has the advantage and even though I main Toon Link, I gotta be realistic. Marth is a better character overall and he has the advantage. I should know, he was my main for 3 months and now he's my secondary.

 

[Sosuke]

2-3 people =/= the TL boards.
It = 2-3 people.

 

[Rutger]

Summery

That summery just screams Disadvantage. >_>

Baiting and blah blah, that's just player dependent stuff and that's stuff you will need to adapt to as you face better players.

Read it. Remember it.
I don't ever want to see player dependent stuff in debates on the TL board again.
|



Anyways, I see it as a disadvantage. Marth outranges us and he's fast. He has many attacks that are equal to or have less startup than our fastest attack(Jab, hits on frame 6.) We have no real safe way to attack up close until he misses, and yet we need to be in his attack range to land a hit. He stops two of our three projectiles easily, we won't be able to keep him away.
TL is not made for punishing, he's should be overwhelming the opponent with his versatility and building up damage. Marth shuts down not only our close range but also most of our mid-long range, forcing us to play punisher.

Though I shouldn't be talking with my lack of experience, I may be wrong on some parts but it is definitely not even. I'll have to agree with at least 60:40 Marth. :/

 

[Power of Slash]

and not only that ^

Marth's sword has more range and is FASTER.

More range... and faster... And this **** is even? GTFO

Not to mention when you're pressured Tink can't do SH*T. Tinks roll is horrid. No glide toss to escape. It comes down to power shielding and spot dodging. THIS IS EVEN RIGHT?

And don't give me retreating zair bs. It's very easy to contend with and if that's all you have when being zoned... a measily 5%... Plus the fact you are jumping backwards puts you in a spot to get tipper fsmashed. The risk far outweighs the reward.

But I already said that... D:

edit: /just read the summary

eh.... It doesn't really sit right with me, but then again it's just a ratio. As stated, I still believe this is Marths advantage anyways, but it being stated as even will not change my thoughts on the matchup.

 

[TheJerm]

You marths can talk all your theory crap, but us TL's are going to continue proving otherwise with hard evidence.

 

[Santi]

marth matchup


6-4 mk

 

[demonictoonlink]

Ya know...The thing is...This is definitely marth's advantage. About 6-4.
Regardless, I love this matchup. I borderline ALWAYS win, but I do feel like I'm always fighting an uphill battle... Maybe Marth does beat us, but this Marth community just sucks compared to us ^^
Also, Santi is posting again!!! And maining Metaknight!!! O wait...

 

[TheJerm]

You make no sense DTL. Because you borderline win, its marths favor. Wtf..

 

[Sosuke]

Jerm, it might be from my lack of experience or something, but I honestly think its 55-45 Marth.
It's just like, close, but Marth has some little stuff he can take advantage of. While TLs seem to be doing well against Marths, its probably because they have more experience with the match-up or are just a little better then the Marth.

 

[TheJerm]

No, the TL's arent that much better. There's no way to prove that. Stop all the theory bull. If a marth can come up with the idea that they can do all this stuff to beat a toon link, but not do it in a serious match, then its useless and all talk. We shut down other people when they come up with theories to do safe spikes, and other things after we test it out. So why cant we do the same for this?

 

[Power of Slash]

The difference between that and this is that the situation where Marth has the advantage isn't anywhere near as situational.

It's known that most of this matchup is spent with Marth straight in our face. We spend most of the matchup in this exact situation, which is where most get the feeling of 55-45 Marth. Toon Link I feel covers every other situation that you'd find yourself in pretty nicely, but these situations don't cover the majority of the matchup.

Just like how you aren't going to find yourself in a situation to use the Safe Spike they found a while ago much, because people don't usually linger around the bare side of the edge.

Marth's usually won't linger anywhere outside of range unless either forced to in which we alleviate the pressure, or they're trying to like... observe or something.

These ratios have absolutely nothing to do with the players themselves. The only thing that should be taken into consideration is the core of the chracters themselves, and basically how the matchup is going to be played outside of things pertaining to the player themself.

 

[TheJerm]

Sighh, I give. TL's and marths against me. I dont even know why I came back, i'll continue to play against marths fine, and leave it at that.

 

[Power of Slash]

It's not that we're neccessarily against you. Everybody has to have their own opinion and your opinion is that this matchup is even.

It's just... we kinda have to be reasonable. You gotta give more than just, I beat these Marths so it's even. Even if the Marth is RoyR.

You're factoring in too much of player skill into this.