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Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #5: Kirbeh
- Thread starter TLMSheikant
- Start date
Metatitan
Smash Master
I'll teach you to fight peach too ;o
MJG
Smash Hero
Even if the kirby is air camping they would have to approach sooner or later..I stand by my numbers...the match is even
@Kewkky: That sucks...that happen to me last summer actually and I decided just to not even attempt to get my wii fixed. Whenever you do get your wii fixed, ill be here to brawl. =D
@Kewkky: That sucks...that happen to me last summer actually and I decided just to not even attempt to get my wii fixed. Whenever you do get your wii fixed, ill be here to brawl. =D
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Summary
Even 50:50
Best Stage to fight Kirby on:
Final Destination, Halberd can also be very good.
Worst Stage to fight Kirby on:
Jungle Japes avoid at all costs.
Summary:
Kirby is a very good character with some great, ranged, speedy moves like back air and a very good grab game. Kirby's moveset is very well designed for close combat. Unfortunately for Kirby, he lacks moblity both in the air and on the ground. Making him susceptible to camping. Kirby's back air is his most used move, it can kill (but its so commonly used that the mayority of the time its too stale to kill until very high percents), comes out in frame 8 and has a lot of range so watch out for that. It can also cancel boomerang and arrows.
Bombs cannot be cancelled by Kirby's moves and it is probably the most useful thing TL has against Kirby, setting kirby up for your sword stuff. If a kirby is aircamping you and he has the lead just chuck an angled boomerang at him and throw bombs at him to force a reaction and punish accordingly with upair/back air/etc. Beware of his grab combos at low percents he can follow up his fthrow with upair and if you dont SDI/DI the upair he can reverse utilt to back air you too. Kirbies also like to down throw, wait for a reaction and punish your reaction with back air, up air, uptilt or grab to another down throw.
Kirby is very good offstage and can gimp Toon Link if you are too predictable while recovering. Remember that our upair, back air, boomerang and bombs beat his down air. Some Kirbies also downb if they see you recovering below the stage so watch out for that as it can lead to a stagespike. Kirby is very light making him die rather early even against TL. But even then, Toon Link is also rather light and with kirby's insane power on his forward smash he can generally kill you faster than you can kill him. Zair can be a little tough to space properly againt kirby. His grab range is very good and hes very short making it even harder to hit with. The reason Toon Link has the edge is because Kirby is very susceptible to camping due to his poor mobility and bombs are generally very hard for Kirby to deal with especially when combined with angled boomerangs. Kirby also dislikes disjointed hitboxes a lot and Toon Link has a lot of those so he's not exactly defenseless upclose either. Toon Link's range with back air, nair and zair can give kirby some trouble upclose.
Halberd is a very good stage to fight Kirby on due to its size and the low vertical ceiling giving Toon Link an edge in killing. Final Destination is probably the best though. It has lots of room to camp and run which is our biggest advantage in the matchup. Jungle Japes is a horrible stage for Toon Link. I suggest banning it against Kirby. It gives Kirby a very very big advantage. The ceiling is very high limiting Toon Link's killing a lot. While not affecting Kirby at all. Kirby can also gain a lead and camp the platforms which limits a lot of what you can do. He also has no trouble recovering from the water and can Kirbycide and survive while you die. The matchup becomes like 70:30 Kirby there, so ban it. Rainbow Cruise is also a very good Kirby stage but it isnt so bad as playing Kirby on Jungle Japes. So if JJ is legal in your area ban it immediately XD and if it isnt then ban Rainbow Cruise.
DI'ing Kirby's kill moves:
Forward Smash: DI up and back air fast fall/DJ dair to momentum cancel.
Back Air: Same as Fsmash.
Aerial Forward B (edgeguarding): Same as fsmash.
UpSmash (although rarely used): DI to the sides.
UpThrow: DI to the sides
TL;DR- This is a very close and even matchup. Kirby will want to get in Toon Link's face as soon as possible and try to stay there. While Toon Link will want to avoid that and play a mid/long range combat game.
Even 50:50
Best Stage to fight Kirby on:
Final Destination, Halberd can also be very good.
Worst Stage to fight Kirby on:
Jungle Japes avoid at all costs.
Summary:
Kirby is a very good character with some great, ranged, speedy moves like back air and a very good grab game. Kirby's moveset is very well designed for close combat. Unfortunately for Kirby, he lacks moblity both in the air and on the ground. Making him susceptible to camping. Kirby's back air is his most used move, it can kill (but its so commonly used that the mayority of the time its too stale to kill until very high percents), comes out in frame 8 and has a lot of range so watch out for that. It can also cancel boomerang and arrows.
Bombs cannot be cancelled by Kirby's moves and it is probably the most useful thing TL has against Kirby, setting kirby up for your sword stuff. If a kirby is aircamping you and he has the lead just chuck an angled boomerang at him and throw bombs at him to force a reaction and punish accordingly with upair/back air/etc. Beware of his grab combos at low percents he can follow up his fthrow with upair and if you dont SDI/DI the upair he can reverse utilt to back air you too. Kirbies also like to down throw, wait for a reaction and punish your reaction with back air, up air, uptilt or grab to another down throw.
Kirby is very good offstage and can gimp Toon Link if you are too predictable while recovering. Remember that our upair, back air, boomerang and bombs beat his down air. Some Kirbies also downb if they see you recovering below the stage so watch out for that as it can lead to a stagespike. Kirby is very light making him die rather early even against TL. But even then, Toon Link is also rather light and with kirby's insane power on his forward smash he can generally kill you faster than you can kill him. Zair can be a little tough to space properly againt kirby. His grab range is very good and hes very short making it even harder to hit with. The reason Toon Link has the edge is because Kirby is very susceptible to camping due to his poor mobility and bombs are generally very hard for Kirby to deal with especially when combined with angled boomerangs. Kirby also dislikes disjointed hitboxes a lot and Toon Link has a lot of those so he's not exactly defenseless upclose either. Toon Link's range with back air, nair and zair can give kirby some trouble upclose.
Halberd is a very good stage to fight Kirby on due to its size and the low vertical ceiling giving Toon Link an edge in killing. Final Destination is probably the best though. It has lots of room to camp and run which is our biggest advantage in the matchup. Jungle Japes is a horrible stage for Toon Link. I suggest banning it against Kirby. It gives Kirby a very very big advantage. The ceiling is very high limiting Toon Link's killing a lot. While not affecting Kirby at all. Kirby can also gain a lead and camp the platforms which limits a lot of what you can do. He also has no trouble recovering from the water and can Kirbycide and survive while you die. The matchup becomes like 70:30 Kirby there, so ban it. Rainbow Cruise is also a very good Kirby stage but it isnt so bad as playing Kirby on Jungle Japes. So if JJ is legal in your area ban it immediately XD and if it isnt then ban Rainbow Cruise.
DI'ing Kirby's kill moves:
Forward Smash: DI up and back air fast fall/DJ dair to momentum cancel.
Back Air: Same as Fsmash.
Aerial Forward B (edgeguarding): Same as fsmash.
UpSmash (although rarely used): DI to the sides.
UpThrow: DI to the sides
TL;DR- This is a very close and even matchup. Kirby will want to get in Toon Link's face as soon as possible and try to stay there. While Toon Link will want to avoid that and play a mid/long range combat game.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ Battlefield is more of a bad stage for Kirby than Final Destination, that stage gives more free room for Kirby to move on the ground and in the air, I'm not too sure about Halberd. Frigate Orpheon and as you put, Jungle Japes is a bad stage to take Kirby on. I'm still not on the side of Toon Link's advantage, though since I main Kirby, Ness and Toon Link, I guess I can't speak for everyone's thoughts... where the hell is Percon at this hour? He can explain much better than I can, I can only perform. >=/ ☆
Smith
Smash Ace
I beileve it's even, or at least 55:45 Kirby.
I've only played Chu Dat's Kirby in 2 sets.
I've only played Chu Dat's Kirby in 2 sets.
Percon
Smash Lord
Forget me already?
Anyway, sorry I'm late to discussion... internet Johns. Pho is my homie and I hate to leave him hanging like this.
Anyway, I'd say this matchup is 50-50. Some people in this thread are right on the money while some are a little misinformed.
Generally we can hit TL pretty hard and get him good for his mistakes. A missed grab or fsmash can mean a hammer to the face; a predictable recovery means a free down air for us; an accidental air dodge means you get to eat one of Kirby's overpowered finishers (well, baisically just fsmash and our average usmash, but still).
That being said, TL should be camping most of this match. His most effective tools are his bombs and aireals. Landing with an airdodge is a big no-no, though Toon Link can cover himself with a hitbox as he lands. That's good... but our powershielding can take care of most of those hitboxes. So what to do?
It's all about where TL lands, IMO. If he can land away from Kirby, he's in control. If he lands close to Kirby, Kirby has the upper hand. Toon Link's best tools for keeping his landing safe are Bombs and his huge double jump (coupled with his air speed).
Kirby can get TL into these bad situations if he plays his cards right. So you've escaped the third hit of the "Kirby combo"... congrats, but you're now without a double-jump, and we've just limited the time it takes for you to draw your bombs, so it'll be harder for you to save yourself that way.
TL has the advantage in the air if Kirby is directly below, to the left, or to the right. If Kirby's kind of diagonal (and has his back turned), then it's probably ok for Kirby to throw out random bairs without much worry.
TL, IMO, is one of the easier characters to edgeguard. Kirby is actually easier to edgeguard than people think, mostly because of his slow descent/ascent speed. Kirby has more tricks, though, like more jumps, fair and hammer momentum tricks. TLs need to be more agressive when edgeguarding, I find... I bet they could edgeguard Kirby fairly well (and I don't mean just dair... nair, bombs, uair are all good vs Kirby offstage)
Also, while this match may go to pretty high percents, both characters are good at revenge killing with their poking/quick air moves (Kirby's bair, TL's bair and fair). Kirby's bair is an amazing revenge killer, but TL's aren't too bad, either. For the record, a revenge kill is just what it sounds like: a kill at the beginning of a fresh stock with a move that's usually stale. This means that matches are usually close.
While this match may seem simple at first (TL = camp/ Kirby = Approach), it's a bit more complex when you take into account the number of ways either character can put the other into a bad position.
I was going to write a blurb to elaborate on the characters' fall speeds and how that gives them advantages in certain situations... but I'm tired
More later?
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
^ good summary. But just wanted to point out something...u said we can eat a hammer due to a missed fsmash or grab we rarely even use those moves LOL but otherwise good summary. ^_^ I also feel like its even but there were more ppl that said 55 45 TL than even so i gotta go with the votes.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Yea, it looks like everything that needs to be said has been said, and the majority of us seem to think it's 50:50, so I guess we're about done.
Percon
Smash Lord
And understandably so - I was just outlining that Kirby can hit hard when given the opportunity.
But yeah... 50-50 seems about the median of everyone's input
EDIT: I forgot stages!
I don't think the stage is super important in this matchup like some others, but I think TL would excel more on a stage like Delphino with the water and offbeat terrain (Kirby loves slants, but not odd allocations of solid ground), not to mention lots of space most of the time. That being said I'm pretty sure Kirby has a wall infinite against TL but I'm not sure if the reverse holds true.
I think Kirby would do great on Pictochat (my favourite stage, so there's some bias there), with the high ceiling, short sides, and some formations that really limit airspace. Flat terrain isn't all that bad in this matchup. Brinstar might be ok too, considering that when the acid rises TL is really restricted as far as safe landing options go. Not to mention it's a small stages with small sides.
Mostly, though, I think stages are more significantly influenced by the players' playstlyes rather than the characters in this matchup.
I agree. I think Battlefield is an amazingly great place for Kirby, far better than almost any other stage, but that's probably because of my own playstyle, as it seems other kirby players don't think the same as I do.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
And I hate battlefield more than any other stage in the game
. lol, I think they have a point.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
It's 50:50 just because I said so, and also because I main Kirby and T. Link. Also, they are very close together on the tier list, so it makes even more sense that the match up is 50:50.
i recently played a great kirby and i think this matchup is slightly in his favor but in general you have to canp well with all of your items and z-air. kirby beats you up close so it can be hard to find the opportunity to kill him. A good kirby has as easy a time gimping your recovery as MK, his d-air goes stright through our recovery and then he can footstool at the end of it. 55-45 kirby
Lobos
Smash Master
Percon that was almost a year ago and the metagame has changed since then....Chu's was more recent. Personally I think this match up is even, or favor in TL but 55-45 since TL's spam can be kirby's downfall.
321BOOM
Smash Journeyman
TL's bombs are actually great combo breakers. If he's slick and manages to pull out a bomb before a grab combo, it's likely that it'll explode before you manage to finish. It may sound situational, but it's actually happened to me alot T__T
pretty simple MU though. TL's strategy should just be camping, and if we get too close, bair/fair/chain attacks.
QUIVO
Smash Master
I used to think Kirby ***** us, but I now think the matchup is slight advantage to TL.
Kirby aerial camps can get really annoying, but we just have to play it slow and keep projectiles in the zair. Bair and uair can be good anti aerial camping tools. Zair follow ups have to be intelligent since he's so floaty.
Kirby's grab combos aren't that graet vs us. From what I've seen they usually fthrow, uair, and then try to follow up, but we can jump away afterwards.
The only Kirby i've placed as of late is YBM, and i didnt have that much of a problem
Kirby aerial camps can get really annoying, but we just have to play it slow and keep projectiles in the zair. Bair and uair can be good anti aerial camping tools. Zair follow ups have to be intelligent since he's so floaty.
Kirby's grab combos aren't that graet vs us. From what I've seen they usually fthrow, uair, and then try to follow up, but we can jump away afterwards.
The only Kirby i've placed as of late is YBM, and i didnt have that much of a problem
Mota
"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
Bout time, used to be 70 or 60 in Kirby favour, I never believed that lol.
TL spams and Kirby aerial 'combos' aren't that effective against TL floatiness. Even 50-50
TL spams and Kirby aerial 'combos' aren't that effective against TL floatiness. Even 50-50
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
Though I lost to Chu, I felt like I could have beaten him if I play my cards better. 55-45 us.
MJG
Smash Hero
How did you play the match up?
I personally play the match up sort of like the Metaknight match up...except i dont have to worry about getting hit in the fact with an attack that goes at 2327239329722 mph (Shuttle Loop)