Reptrode
Smash Cadet
What about just stalling in the air, and taking an opening? but for that to work the Zelda main would have to either have bad timing, or ToonLink fake 'em out...
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Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #8: Zelda
- Thread starter TLMSheikant
- Start date
1Zero99Lucia5
Smash Cadet
hmhm zelda eh?
my teammate mains zelda, so i have lots of experience against a good zelda
well here goes
Zelda really has a hard time killing Toon Link, her only kill options against Toon Link are all her aerials except NAir. Her smashes are easy to SDI out, and her Down Smash is way easily to tether safe. But her Din's Fire is really dangerous, the hitbox is insane and your airdodge won't get through the whole hitbox without a scratch. But her recovery is easily gimped by your Hookshot or just edgeguard, she will fall straight down after her recovery, so no need to be on your guard for anything. But then again Toon Link's recovery can be DAired more easy than you can count to 3. And she has nothing to outcamp Toon Link.
But it is just all about your spacing and your opponents spacing.
I think the match-up should be 60:40 for Toon Link.
byeee
my teammate mains zelda, so i have lots of experience against a good zelda
well here goes
Zelda really has a hard time killing Toon Link, her only kill options against Toon Link are all her aerials except NAir. Her smashes are easy to SDI out, and her Down Smash is way easily to tether safe. But her Din's Fire is really dangerous, the hitbox is insane and your airdodge won't get through the whole hitbox without a scratch. But her recovery is easily gimped by your Hookshot or just edgeguard, she will fall straight down after her recovery, so no need to be on your guard for anything. But then again Toon Link's recovery can be DAired more easy than you can count to 3. And she has nothing to outcamp Toon Link.
But it is just all about your spacing and your opponents spacing.
I think the match-up should be 60:40 for Toon Link.
byeee
A~Kid/ToonethLinkage
Wants His Own Custom Title
We have the clear advantage. 60 - 40, she can't Lightning Kick us, if we do then the Toon Link should just drop the controller right there. Also we can KO her before she KOs us. Her only thing is Usmash. But it can be DI'ed out of. IDK how you do it but I've done it a couple times. I think it was up and away (left or right for slow people).
yeah I think it's timing, I always get hit by it if I decide to do that, but Zelda's Usmash animation is basically her waving her finger around above her head, I think the two end points at either side of the hitbox are times when you can Dair her if the hitbox is in a corner,
other than that it breaks dair
what twink said, use bombs, go straight through Usmash
Veggie123
Smash Journeyman
Here's a tiny bit more input from a Zelda user 
Between the two, fsmash is easier to to escape from and it's relatively simple to do (holding up on the control stick). However, you're going have to have a good idea when Zelda is going to fsmash since you DI away from the weak hits to avoid the last hit with the actual knockback. With that said, I wouldn't generally consider it a kill move since it's usually never fresh and the move lasts so long that even if an opponent does get hit by it they have enough time to DI in an optimum direction. It's good range and low cooldown lag encourage the use of fsmash as a damage racker and for spacing. Usmash is considerably tougher to escape from and I don't think I've ever played someone who could get out of it consistently. Some characters like Marth and Ice Climbers can get out of it sometimes, which I think has to do with something about being hit by it while airborne and weight/fall speed...but I wouldn't scratch usmash off the KO move list.
Dsmash however is something Toon Link can zair ledge grab pretty easily since it is almost just horizontal knockback, so that's a bit of trouble for Zelda since it's actually a pretty good kill move for her.
She has quite a few more kill moves up her sleeve like fair, bair, uair (though uair is admittedly hard to hit), and utilt. Dtilt at later percents pops up your opponent in a good spot to get utilted or usmashed which can lead to a kill.
As far as the matchup goes, Toon Link definitely has an edge of sorts. Projectiles are hard to deal with and it's not terribly hard to get hit with them considering her height (which doesn't exactly compliment her light frame :embarrass). Zelda can't reflect his bombs effectively either so that's pretty troublesome. Zelda can try to countercamp (lol) with Din's but it's it'll only trade hits at best. Just know that if you hit Zelda while casting Din's Fire, the fireball will still go max range and detonate or if it is aimed towards the ground it'll explode there. If you can get her in the air, it's pretty easy to combo her and zair is a very good spacing tool for Toon Link. I just find it hard to see what kill options Toon Link has in this matchup without putting him in danger of Zelda's ground game which is one of her stronger points which makes me skeptical about the matchup being 6:4. Baiting an airdodge into uair seems like one of the better options he has. His fair looks like it can kill too but it seems slow and if it's blocked it looks like it can get punished easily (bair is one of Zelda's better moves out of shield, so be wary if she's facing away from you). If I remember correctly, it's pretty easy to jump out of fsmash after the first hit so I don't think Toon Link will be scoring KOs with it too often. Usmash seems pretty risky too since it'll put you in range of Zelda's attacks...it's probably better used when predicting where she's going to recover. And I guess a fresh utilt can kill at around 132% with bad/no DI.
Overall though, despite her light weight, I think Toon Link is going to have a bit of trouble when trying to kill which makes me lean towards 55:45 TL's favor. He still has an advantage for sure with his great projectile and aerial game, just be wary of spacing as always. There may be misconceptions in my post since I don't know the ins and outs of Toon Link as well as those who main him, so feel free to correct any errors you catch
Usmash and fsmash are SDIable, though I'm not sure where people are getting the notion of it being super easy though
Between the two, fsmash is easier to to escape from and it's relatively simple to do (holding up on the control stick). However, you're going have to have a good idea when Zelda is going to fsmash since you DI away from the weak hits to avoid the last hit with the actual knockback. With that said, I wouldn't generally consider it a kill move since it's usually never fresh and the move lasts so long that even if an opponent does get hit by it they have enough time to DI in an optimum direction. It's good range and low cooldown lag encourage the use of fsmash as a damage racker and for spacing. Usmash is considerably tougher to escape from and I don't think I've ever played someone who could get out of it consistently. Some characters like Marth and Ice Climbers can get out of it sometimes, which I think has to do with something about being hit by it while airborne and weight/fall speed...but I wouldn't scratch usmash off the KO move list.
Dsmash however is something Toon Link can zair ledge grab pretty easily since it is almost just horizontal knockback, so that's a bit of trouble for Zelda since it's actually a pretty good kill move for her.
She has quite a few more kill moves up her sleeve like fair, bair, uair (though uair is admittedly hard to hit), and utilt. Dtilt at later percents pops up your opponent in a good spot to get utilted or usmashed which can lead to a kill.
If this is because of Toon Link's height, it'd only slightly tighten the window of hitting a bair, but it is still very possible to hit Toon Link with a bair while he's grounded. I would assume he would be in the air most of the time anyway making his height a non-issue.
It can outprioritze dair but it needs almost near-perfect frame timing, so I don't really think trying to usmash a dair is a very smart choice.
As far as the matchup goes, Toon Link definitely has an edge of sorts. Projectiles are hard to deal with and it's not terribly hard to get hit with them considering her height (which doesn't exactly compliment her light frame :embarrass). Zelda can't reflect his bombs effectively either so that's pretty troublesome. Zelda can try to countercamp (lol) with Din's but it's it'll only trade hits at best. Just know that if you hit Zelda while casting Din's Fire, the fireball will still go max range and detonate or if it is aimed towards the ground it'll explode there. If you can get her in the air, it's pretty easy to combo her and zair is a very good spacing tool for Toon Link. I just find it hard to see what kill options Toon Link has in this matchup without putting him in danger of Zelda's ground game which is one of her stronger points which makes me skeptical about the matchup being 6:4. Baiting an airdodge into uair seems like one of the better options he has. His fair looks like it can kill too but it seems slow and if it's blocked it looks like it can get punished easily (bair is one of Zelda's better moves out of shield, so be wary if she's facing away from you). If I remember correctly, it's pretty easy to jump out of fsmash after the first hit so I don't think Toon Link will be scoring KOs with it too often. Usmash seems pretty risky too since it'll put you in range of Zelda's attacks...it's probably better used when predicting where she's going to recover. And I guess a fresh utilt can kill at around 132% with bad/no DI.
Overall though, despite her light weight, I think Toon Link is going to have a bit of trouble when trying to kill which makes me lean towards 55:45 TL's favor. He still has an advantage for sure with his great projectile and aerial game, just be wary of spacing as always. There may be misconceptions in my post since I don't know the ins and outs of Toon Link as well as those who main him, so feel free to correct any errors you catch
MJG
Smash Hero
@Veggie: How do you DI out of the Up Smash? My friend say that you have to DI in a circle motion? I still dont know what he means by that but i would like some input on that from you or other zelda mains (I dont think you can get out of it easily if you even CAN IMO).
Also..what are some good counterpicks for toonlinks (bans for zelda) in this match up and vice versa? Would be very helpful
I would imagine that Castle Siege would be in Zelda's favor (one of my personal favorites ^_^).
Also..what are some good counterpicks for toonlinks (bans for zelda) in this match up and vice versa? Would be very helpful
I would imagine that Castle Siege would be in Zelda's favor (one of my personal favorites ^_^).
Veggie123
Smash Journeyman
I'm not too familiar with the details, but I think it has to do with quarter circle DIing. A friend was really excited when it was discovered but ended up not being able to pull it off. It's possible to do, though probably not really worth learning anyway since Zelda is a pretty bad character and one you won't run into often enough to warrant getting down 
Floaties usually have better luck getting out of it, whereas fast fallers can usually get hit by it twice at 0%.
EDIT: actually just tried QC DIng myself for like 5 mins, it's not too hard to get down...heh. I think positioning plays a part in it too, kind of easy for TL but again quick reaction time required.
As far as counterpicks go, some stages make it really hard for her to teleport onto the edge safely which forces her to recover onto the stage where she can eat whatever smash to the face such as Pokemon Stadium. Halberd and Delfino have those thin aerial platform areas which makes it impossible to recover onto the edge if you mis-space even by a little. She can try to teleport through the stage, but again it's a laggy recovery
Luigi's mansion and Castle Siege are great for Zelda because the pillars/statues extend her already long hitboxes. Corneria and Green Greens are good for their low ceilings and she's harder to gimp on Corneria. They're probably your best bet for a stage ban if they're even legal in your respective region, that or Battlefield which is arguably her best neutral and one of her best stages to abuse usmash/nair/utilt under platforms
Floaties usually have better luck getting out of it, whereas fast fallers can usually get hit by it twice at 0%.EDIT: actually just tried QC DIng myself for like 5 mins, it's not too hard to get down...heh. I think positioning plays a part in it too, kind of easy for TL but again quick reaction time required.
As far as counterpicks go, some stages make it really hard for her to teleport onto the edge safely which forces her to recover onto the stage where she can eat whatever smash to the face such as Pokemon Stadium. Halberd and Delfino have those thin aerial platform areas which makes it impossible to recover onto the edge if you mis-space even by a little. She can try to teleport through the stage, but again it's a laggy recovery
Luigi's mansion and Castle Siege are great for Zelda because the pillars/statues extend her already long hitboxes. Corneria and Green Greens are good for their low ceilings and she's harder to gimp on Corneria. They're probably your best bet for a stage ban if they're even legal in your respective region, that or Battlefield which is arguably her best neutral and one of her best stages to abuse usmash/nair/utilt under platforms
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Summary
Advantage 65-35
Best Stage to Fight Zelda on:
Worst Stage to Fight Zelda on:
Summary:
Zelda. A character that was thought at the beginning of the game to have a lot of potential, now in low tier :/. Anyways, Zelda has a couple of things going for her but usually dont make up for her devastating bad qualities. Which are her horrible recovery (not distance wise), avoid getting juggled, predictability and the fact that she doesnt have a very good camping or approach game. She has very good kill moves however and a very decent ground game. Her forward smash, usmash, dtilt and down smash are all very good. Fsmash has very good range and very little cooldown. Zeldas normally use this for spacing. If you get hit by it, hold up or SDI up to avoid getting hit by all the hits. Her down smash comes out insanely fast (frame 4), has good knockback and a very great trayectory for gimping so always be on the lookout for it. Her down tilt sets you up for a variety of stuff so its best to avoid it altogether. USmash *****.
Zelda's aerial game is spectacular but very situational and they usually cant get her out of trouble. Her most reliable aerial is neutral air but it has bad range. Abuse her lack of a good anti juggle game whenever u get her in the air. Dont just recklessly charge in though since a misspaced aerial can mean a lightning kick to the face and you wont enjoy those (they kill at around 80% with DI). Back air is great for abusing zelda's unrealible air game and racking up good damage. Upair is a great kill move in this matchup too. Zelda is also very light making our killing problem easier to deal with.
The camping game is definetely in our advantage. Faster, better and less laggier spam with bombs and zair. Be careful with your usage of boomerang and arrow cancels as dins will burn right throught them and damage you. Zair is absolutely great for poking and harassing zelda from mid range. Her options against zair are very limited. Always be careful of obvious airdodging because zeldas like to take advantage of that with her upair which can kill very early.
Avoid stages with little room to camp as they will make zelda have an easier time approaching you. Ex. Castle Siege, Battlefield, etc. Counterpick stages with a lot of room to camp like Final Destination, etc.
TL;DR- Camp her, juggle her, zair her, get her offstage, be careful of Din's when using boomerang/arrows.
Advantage 65-35
Best Stage to Fight Zelda on:
Worst Stage to Fight Zelda on:
Summary:
Zelda. A character that was thought at the beginning of the game to have a lot of potential, now in low tier :/. Anyways, Zelda has a couple of things going for her but usually dont make up for her devastating bad qualities. Which are her horrible recovery (not distance wise), avoid getting juggled, predictability and the fact that she doesnt have a very good camping or approach game. She has very good kill moves however and a very decent ground game. Her forward smash, usmash, dtilt and down smash are all very good. Fsmash has very good range and very little cooldown. Zeldas normally use this for spacing. If you get hit by it, hold up or SDI up to avoid getting hit by all the hits. Her down smash comes out insanely fast (frame 4), has good knockback and a very great trayectory for gimping so always be on the lookout for it. Her down tilt sets you up for a variety of stuff so its best to avoid it altogether. USmash *****.
Zelda's aerial game is spectacular but very situational and they usually cant get her out of trouble. Her most reliable aerial is neutral air but it has bad range. Abuse her lack of a good anti juggle game whenever u get her in the air. Dont just recklessly charge in though since a misspaced aerial can mean a lightning kick to the face and you wont enjoy those (they kill at around 80% with DI). Back air is great for abusing zelda's unrealible air game and racking up good damage. Upair is a great kill move in this matchup too. Zelda is also very light making our killing problem easier to deal with.
The camping game is definetely in our advantage. Faster, better and less laggier spam with bombs and zair. Be careful with your usage of boomerang and arrow cancels as dins will burn right throught them and damage you. Zair is absolutely great for poking and harassing zelda from mid range. Her options against zair are very limited. Always be careful of obvious airdodging because zeldas like to take advantage of that with her upair which can kill very early.
Avoid stages with little room to camp as they will make zelda have an easier time approaching you. Ex. Castle Siege, Battlefield, etc. Counterpick stages with a lot of room to camp like Final Destination, etc.
TL;DR- Camp her, juggle her, zair her, get her offstage, be careful of Din's when using boomerang/arrows.