Toon Link Stage Counter Picks/Bans {BOWSER!}

[Samuelson]

Frigate is a good Lucario stage because it allows him to camp more efficiently if he chooses to and Lucario is one of the only characters that doesn't get gimped on this stage.

Japes is really good for Lucario vs TL because (correct me if i'm wrong) but TL's main kill moves are Uair and Usmash. Both these moves kill vertically and Japes has the highest ceiling in the game and will probably allow lucario to live until stupidly high percents. We're talking like 160-180% on average here. Lucario will be at max power and he can EASILY out camp you at those percents. The platform layout itself is also just good for luc.

Mansion is good for Lucario but i personally hate it. It's pretty obvious why this stage is good for Lucario. The stage lets him live till stupid percents and his Fsmash stays out forever on the pillars. Mansion also has a huge ceiling so even if the mansion itself is destroyed he can still live till like 170% pretty easily. The platforms that appear near the edges also allow him to recover safely so you can't follow up with a fair or nair or whatever.

FD is probably Lucario's best neutral because it's big and he can wall cling on that stage if the lucario knows what he is doing.

Corneria is my least favorite stage for Lucario. Small blast zones, can't abuse the wall, can't use aura sphere as well because of the slants, no walls for him to cling on. TL can also do some pretty stupid things on that stage :D

Hope this helps.

 

[Alzi]

sasukebowser this is seriously a good thread. Most the other boards don't have it this organised like you do, so good job on it.

For Lucario i'm not to sure a stage were he can't camp so much. Also a stage were he can't make use of his ability so much either. Personally Smashville is a small stage and at high percentages he will send you flying off the stage. Rainbow cruise might be one counter stage i guess seeing as his recovery isn't that great and he can't use his B move so often. A Ban on luigi's mansion as Samuelson explained so well. Yoshi's island and shadow moses island lucario does well in. A counter pick might have to be battlefield since we can space our projectiles easier.

 

[Samuelson]

I would try to CP Corneria against Lucario and if they ban that then maybe Rainbow Cruise or Lylat.

Personally i dislike Rainbow Cruise so much with Lucario that i learned MK just so i could out gay anybody who tries to CP that stage against me. However, there are a couple of Lucario mains that actually like RC. Their reasoning is that RC enforces aerial combat which is where Lucario excels and, in most cases, is where he wants the opponent. There are lots of easy to cling to walls on RC plus Lucario has a really good second jump so don't expect Lucario's recovery to get gimped. The reason i hate this stage is because the ceiling is SOOO low and Lucario dies way toooo early. Lucario can't even abuse the low ceiling because he doesn't have any reliable vertical kill moves.

Lylat is good because against Lucario because he can't really use AS effectively due to the stage tilting BS. The stage can also gimp a dumb Lucario's recovery.

 

[Timbers]

I wouldn't take a Toon to Japes, as the outer platforms let him gay you hard with projectiles, zair, and tons of oos options that shouldn't work on larger plats.

Neutral stage, I avoid Yoshis as much as possible against Toon. It's not so much character specific as it is Luc struggle with small characters on Yoshis due to it's slanted nature and Luc's one-dimensional approaches. Trying to approach Toon in the "dip" of the middle of the stage is difficult to deal with as well. Bunch of other things all coupled together, like Luc's poor plat pressure, and lame edges, makes it a stage I'd want to avoid altogether.

Outside of the realm of neutrals, Luc does very badly on Corneria and RC. I'm not sure where you want to categorize Lylat, but that stage is ridiculously difficult to deal with when you're the one who has to go on the offensive, which is Lucario in this case. Corneria and RC are pretty much givens as to why.

Avoid Frigate if you can. No tether recovery for Toon forces him to uB in situations that can get him killed due to fall special back onto stage, whereas Luc does have wallcling if needed. I'm not a huge fan of this stage due to the dip in the second half, which is just amazing for campy characters, but it's probably Luc's best CP outside of neutrals against Toon.

I personally just take Toon to Battlefield or Smashville. He's one of the characters I don't like on Mansion, as he can play a very gay defense under the ceilings.

 

[Jman115]

Lylat is good agianst lucario in my experience. The tilting stage can gimp his recovery.

 

[Timbers]

no it can't.

but it does **** about everything else.

 

[Samuelson]

TL is one of the only characters that i take to Mansion LOL

 

[rebd121]

Ban: Japes. Definitely. Too high a ceiling destroys Toon's vert kills, forcing us to rely on either Dair spikes or horizontal kills.

CP: Corneria, due to the small blast zones. Lylat, because Toons can camp efficiently while Lucario can't.

 

[Sosuke]

Lucarios done.
Thanks a bunch Lucario mains! =)
Some really good stuff.


Lucas is nest.

Yes, nest.

 

[Irsic]

Lucas does well on Brinstar, Norfair, and Luigi's Mansion for sure. Though I don't really know this matchup that well so I don't know how TL does on these stages. Lucas is able to take full advantage of LM though, and I know that that is a bad TL stage, so quite possibly ban LM.

Counter stage? I hate Yoshi's Island, and I know a lot of other Lucas mains despise it as well. Take it for what you will. Those are just some personal opinions~

 

[x9whitey9x]

Not sure which to ban, but probably Norfair or Brinstar.
Definitely choose Lylat if you're comfortable on it, as the tilting ruins Lucas' PKT2 recovery, although zap jumping and other recovery techniques help.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't think tethers care about a tilting stage...

I'd counterpick Luigi's Mansion against Toon Link for a couple of reasons. The pillars block your projectiles, the generally cramped space on the bottom floor means you can't angle your boomerang as much as usual and limits aerial options, and Lucas's up and down smashes last for-freaking-ever when used on the pillars. If used in the middle section, PK Freeze won't get absorbed by the ceiling and doesn't rise enough to run into the second floor on the way down. PK Thunder turns sharply enough to avoid the ceiling as well.

Norfair and Brinstar are good Lucas stages in general (Norfair moreso for me, I've never been a huge Brinstar fan). Can you throw the boomerang down through platforms?

Yoshi's Island can mess up our technique while trying to autocancel and the support ghost can eat PK Thunder if it appears at the wrong time. Final Destination would be in Toon Link's favor since he outcamps Lucas and there's nothing getting in the way of projectile spam.

EDIT: Of course, this means that as a Toon Link, you should avoid Norfair, Brinstar, and Luigi's Mansion, while counterpicking Yoshi's Island or Final Destination.

 

[Jman115]

yes Lucas cares about a tilting stage.
The pk thunder recovery can be gimped because of the constantly moving/tilting stage. Its wonderful.

 

[Tyr_03]

I really like to go Brinstar with Lucas. It's a very convenient stage for him. But not all Lucas players are comfortable with it. Frigate Orpheon messes up TL's recovery sometimes so it's kind of fun to take him there. Lucas doesn't have much trouble with the missing edge and the stage spaces well for him. Those are as much personal preference as anything though.

As far as neutrals go I would avoid Battlefield. It's a really good stage for Lucas. You're best bet is picking Final Destination. The rest are whatever. FD just lets you outcamp me because it's harder to avoid the boomerang and arrows without some platforms. I can't remember the last time I was gimped by Lylat. It's really not that hard to make it back unless you suck at DI, PKT2 and tether. I just hate that stage in general because it autolands me on the platforms sometimes when I'm trying to full hop Dair. So annoying.

If you're looking for anything on how to beat Lucas, talk to Quivo. He always beats me.

 

[Lobos]

Are there any good lucas players lol?

Ban Frigate.......CP brinstar (if your name is Lobos) Delphino is a good cp

 

[Sosuke]

Nice grammar.

 

[Luur3]

Lylat really screws with Lucas's recovery, and a little of his PK fire. Personally, I like Battlefield, to help avoid his projectiles at long range

 

[FireKirby7]

Ban Corneria, the Arwings/Great Fox's lasers can be absorbed by PSI Magnet. Also the dtilt lock at the wall. Brinstar is good for Lucas too, the acid helps him back up after PKT gimps/screwups. The destructable terrain helps his Dsmash and Usmash. Dthrow and Fsmash also kill rediculously early there, too. Norfair is a great stage for Lucas. Lava saves him from missed recoveries, and he can move around the stage quickly with his tether, and can almost can camp with PKT. Almost! Dthrow can kill very fast here as well. Don't get grabbed at the top platforms.

I'd say CP FD, cuz TL's projectile spam can be hard to get past with Lucas. Lucas also sucks in Yoshi's Island. Shy Guys can block PK Fire and it's pretty difficult to recover when you're next to the wall. It's even possible to be gimped by the Support Ghost at times. Can't think of anything else. I don't even have problems on Lylat Cruise.

 

[Chuee]

Pick yoshi island. The support ghost can gimp lucas -_- The shy gus can get pretty annoying at times too. Frigate can also make recovery hard for lucas, kinda.
Id probably ban stages with walls (dtilit infinite lock), norfair (plenty of room for PKT spacing, tethers, and lava can help you recover), or Weegee mansion (it makes tl projectile spacing tough)

 

[Alzi]

Maybe ban stages with low ceiling since his up smash can kill quickly.

 

[heytallman]

I always ban Yoshi's Island, I hate that stage so much. It's all been said here, good Lucas stages are Norfair, Brinstar, Corneria, etc. Personally, my favorite CP's are Corneria and Pokemon Stadium 2 (when it's legal, that is).

FD would be good for you, take us to Yoshi's, I'm basically repeating what everyone else has said already lol

 

[Sosuke]

Lucas is done. Thanks for all the helpful into Lucas mains! =)

Onto....
Luigi. ._.

 

[hippiedude92]

Rawr. I don't fight Toon Links at a daily basis or probably at all but it's w/e lol.

But from experience,

luigi will be excelling in Battlefield/lylat since it's aerial heaven for him. Places like jungle japes, corneria, halberd would be nice since Tlink has a hard time killing and luigi has easy time killing vertically.

Toon link should **** luigi on FD since it's flat stage and toon link can camp the living **** outta him.

 

[WIGI]

i go with battelfeild, then cp corneria or frigate orpheon


anythign with good platforms is great, such as all the metriod stages, bann FD and smashville


corneria is great cuz luigi can fin camp lol, and kill veyr esily vertical, and backthrow into the fin at around 100 usualy kills or leads to an easy gimp.

 

[Smith]

wouldn't Rainbow Cruise be good for Luigi? with his 3 recoveries, he can make it back from almost any direction...
On top of that he can do the same on Frigate because the right ledge doesn't have a ledge grab..
Luigi Cyclone to Up+ B..Though that can be ppunished..

 

[hippiedude92]

No. Rainbow cruise is a no no for luigi. Actually Tlink would do slightly better than luigi on RC because of his sexy aerial mobility compared to luigi's 2nd worst one lol. And you can throw bombs and projectile spam everywhere =D.

Luigi excels well in all metroid stages. Greens GReens is pretty good for luigi considering low ceiling. Got alot to ban there eh =P.

I said jungle japes cuz, from what i recall (correct me im a tlink nub lol), tlink sucks at killing and has no real vertical kills but luigi still does pretty well compared to tlink considering he has fsmash, shoryuken, nair etc.

 

[crewster]

Cornaria is great for luigi.

 

[Lobos]

BAN YOSHI ISLAND!!! That platform helps Luigi more than it does TL. Actually platforms can help Luigi out in most stages since he can combo really well and help him avoid spam.

CP with FD or smashville.......as the wigi mains have already said lol

Edit: You can also CP with pirate ship or pokemon stadium 2 if they aren't banned.

 

[Sosuke]

Luigis done. Thanks Luigi mains.


Marios next.
Sorry for taking so long with this one guys. Won't happen again. =(

 

[Matador]

I know that I, personally, hate fighting TL on Battlefield or Lylat. His range really comes into play there as he's constantly attacking through the platforms from the bottom while I'm on top. Approach is particularly difficult against TL on Lylat because fireballs are kinda screwy there. Anywhere TL can abuse his greatest adv in the matchup, range, is where your ideal CP will be. Halberd is probably your best bet. Easy vertical kills, not many opportunities to be gimped, and you still have room to move around and space your attacks/projectiles.

Not sure what I'd ban vs Mario. Battlefield is our best stage XD

 

[boss8]

mario is good anywhere i mean its mr nintendo...

 

[Matt07]

Umm usually I hate fighting on Yoshi's Island Brawl in general, and Toon Link can take a pretty good advantage with platforms. I'd most likely take him on Rainbow Cruise (a lot more opportunities to 'gimp' Toon Link) or FD as it's easier to reflect projectiles, because of no platforms.

 

[Lobos]

mario is good anywhere i mean its mr nintendo...

except on pirate ship lol ~.o

 

[Judge Judy]

except on pirate ship lol ~.o

Anywhere where Mario has a diffcult time abusing his edge game is a good CP stage.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Ban: Rainbow Cruise/Norfair (I'm telling you guys, Mario ***** here!)

Counterpick: Jungle Japes/Pirate Ship

 

[iRjOn]

Ban BF
Like Luigi Platforms help him pwn...
idk what to CP
FD?

 

[Judge Judy]

Ban BF
Like Luigi Platforms help him pwn...
idk what to CP
FD?

No, FD is not a good CP against Mario. I'd CP either Jungle Japes or Pirate Ship.

 

[iRjOn]

hmm thanx Judy

But thinking about it
since Pirate ship is banned over here I think Lylat might work...
just throwing something out there...
yah know what forget it I fail at fighting Mario's
idk the match up really lol

 

[Judge Judy]

hmm thanx Judy

But thinking about it
since Pirate ship is banned over here I think Lylat might work...
just throwing something out there...
yah know what forget it I fail at fighting Mario's
idk the match up really lol

Lylat might work, but it's a double-edged sword; you might be able to mess up Mario's approaches and edge game, but at the same time you give Mario extra platforms and level angles to work with. Still, Lylat would probably be more beneficial to TL than to Mario.

 

[hippiedude92]

Let it be known. Mario can't be fully camped and has "much" easier time bypassing TL's projectile game. Not to mention Mario's is a little more verstaile than luigi's. That's differnece you'll be seeing.

FD won't help, as said before, mario can't be camped.

I'd go jungle japes probably.

I might go castle siege since they are walk offs and such.

but as judy said, anything that puts mario's edgeguard game down is a winner for you.