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ToTs' Bowser (NEW VIDS UP)

Luigithemobster

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Messages
25
I have been playing bowser for about 6 months and I haven't really gotten any advice from good bowser players. I seek advice from bowser players. I also want you to rate my bowser. Here are the matces that I have uploaded so far. There will be more matches relatively soon.

Vs. Obese (Mewtwo)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jwErx5f0RDQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CCpIaCtWYdk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=da6O6PexE9w

Vs. Aspect (Falcon)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hPfsCbp5_Y This was our first match of the day so we were kind of warming up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EjZ7VE7tmc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqZRhjTN-sc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0VmgLUtsD0e Wow...please don't watch this..****
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
My internet currently sucks, so I'll give you my impressions just on the first match.

A wavedashing Bowser... that's kinda weird. Really though, I don't think you have any business wavedashing or dashdancing there, because neither is really useful for Bowser in terms of spacing. If you're trying to fake him out, you have to do it closer, otherwise he's just going to throw Shadow Balls at you.

You're missing a few L-cancels and techs, which just takes time to fix. So take more time. Yes.

There're a few times that I thought you could replace your bairs and fairs with nairs, so you should watch for that. Bowser's fairly big so if they try to roll through the attack, they could get clipped by the nair. Just a thought.

I think you're using your smashes too much. Bowser's smashes are very slow and his tilts have enough knockback to do what you need them to do, so I would advise using those more, especially in the case of the fsmash. It sends them at a nearly vertical angle, so unless you think you can kill them with it, I'd use the ftilt instead.

You're using the fair too much. It's a good move, but there were definitely a few times when you could've used a utilt or a grab to attack at a higher speed. You missed a few opportunities to hit your opponent because of the startup lag on the fair (like the jump and such)

A good edgeguard to use when you're on a higher platform is to drop with a bair. It's not as useful against teleporting recoveries like Mewtwo's, but just keep that in mind.

Just in general, you have weird recovery patterns that are unnecessarily punishable. If they're ledgehogging you, try to hit them with the Whirling Fortress instead of using it really early. Aiming for the ledge is always a good policy.

Your opponent is fairly predictable, so mindgame him. Don't wavedash around when you don't need to - watch for the opening instead.

Also, you shouldn't really get shieldgrabbed that much. Shffl lower against shieldgrabbers and use the aerial Koopa Klaw more.
 

GodheadsLamentX

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Messages
93
Location
New Rochelle, Westchester, NY
So from what I've seen, all that bowser needs is to stop wasting movement. Dashdancing won't help much to your boozer game (unless of course you're gonna fortress or space an opportune Bair). Learn fortress stuff to make your bowser get around faster and provide mindgame options.

Don't miss your L-cancels. Don't be too aggressive because recovery options are limited and linear. Your opponent has obvious patterns, learn them and be patient. Bowser is slow, but can space himself well if needed. Remember that upB out of the shield, Ftilt and Fair keep aggressive players in check. Dtilt has often unexpected range and can push a shielding enemy away. Use sparingly, along with your smash attacks.

Oh and don't listen to elvenarrow about wavedashing. It spaces you out, which is extremely important to get hits in with bowser on approaching enemies
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
Hey, don't get me wrong, I like wavedashing and think it's useful for spacing and such but for one, he was doing it too far out to fake anyone out and secondly I think he missed a lot of edgeguarding/openings because he was busy wavedashing.

Plus Bowser's wavedash is slow.
 

bowser17

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
3
I bet that bowser's almost as bad as mine! (Not really, LOL actually you did pretty good but some of the missed recoveries etc. looked bad to me. Maybe it's just that I've seen too many of Gimpyfish's videos and have too high of expectations... :p)
 

ohpistachios

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 12, 2006
Messages
136
Location
UC Berkeley, San Diego
Okay, I've watched all 3 videos and here's what I think

Firstly, here's where i disagree with the above posters.

a) You're not using specific moves too much, youre just using MOVES too much.

b) You're not dashdancing too much, you're not dashdancing ENOUGH. Dashdancing is extremely useful with Bowser, as I'll explain later.

c) Bowser's wavedash is certainly not something that you should spam (see point A about not using moves too much) but it does have its uses. (Platform landing to approach, wavelanding to mindgame, wavedashing out of shield to punish).

d) Don't think about your techskill. Obviously your techskill is imperfect, as is everybody's. And obviously, you should TRY to perfect it. But to say that you should work on your techskill is misleading. Your techskill is as good as it needs to be, and you really need to focus on other aspects of your gameplay.

As I see it, here are the problems with your play:

1) TOO MANY SHFFLs that dont contact. SHFFLing fairs and bairs seems to be your only method of approach, and it is not a good approach. You don't need me to tell you that all someone needs to do to counter that approach is to SHIELDGRAB. And even if they don't shieldgrab, SHFFLed fairs that don't contact leave you VERY open to being punished (a shffled fair is FAR laggier than you might think it to be).

The solution: Intersperse DASHGRABS with your shffls. Honestly, dashgrab is probably bowser's best approach. It's very fast, it has great range, and it can lead to many other moves. If you're facing into the stage, try a backthrow to get them off the stage and into a vulnerable position. If you're facing away from the stage, try a downthrow to techchase or follow with a fair. (Obviously these are generalities so don't adhere to them religiously).

2) TOO MANY EMPTY SHORTHOPS. Bowser's shorthop is FAR too slow to be spammed, and it leaves you very vulnerable. Do you ever think about why it is that, when people are being juggled (say, by Fox's upairs) they want to get back on the ground? It's because being in the air is a very vulnerable position. Now why would you want to put yourself in that position voluntarily? Just don't do it. I'm not saying that you should never use empty shffls, they can definitely be a good mindgame. But most of the time you're much better off staying on the ground.

The solution: Well, obviously, DON'T use many empty shorthops. Replace them with dashdances. You are MUCH better off spending time dashdancing than spending it doing empty shorthops or shffled fairs. Why? Because when you're dashdancing, you're baiting for openings and setting yourself up for a quick punish (with a quick dashgrab or a shield to up-b or something like that). Also, you are simply much more secure while you're on the ground. On the ground, you can SHIELD, and shielding is very important to bowser's game (given his amazing up-b out of shield). When elvenarrow said "Really though, I don't think you have any business wavedashing or dashdancing there, because neither is really useful for Bowser in terms of spacing," I think he meant that you can't use Bowser's dashdance in quite the same way that you use other characters' dashdances. What you have to realize about bowser's dashdance, is that more often than not, you will NOT avoid an attack simply by dashdancing. What you need to do is dashdance, and then either SHIELD or FORTRESS as soon as you think you're going to be hit (shield against most attacks, fortress away against grabs).

3) Crappy Recoveries. Okay, I lied before. There is ONE aspect of your tech game that it is absolutely crucial for you to improve: your DI (you should NOT be dying to M2's backthrow on FD until like 200%). A bowser without good DI is... well I don't know what it is but it's not a bowser. Improving your DI is a prerequisite to improving your recovery, because having good DI gives you options. Luckily for you, Bowser is the easiest character to learn DI with. Because all of his moves are so laggy, you can anticipate being hit after you missing virtually any of them, and you can prepare to DI accordingly. Okay, I've gotten a bit off track here, but it's all relevant.

The solution: The key to a good recovery is fooling your opponent. This, i'm sure, is self-evident. In other words, you have to ALWAYS provide yourself with options (this is where good DI comes in). To recover, a good bowser will DI well, float for a while, then jump and up-b at the height of the jump. Furthermore, a good bowser will position himself so that he has a few options even after starting his up-b. Now, when elvenarrow said "Aiming for the ledge is always a good policy," don't take this literally. There were many situations in your videos where you could and should have recovered to the ledge. Bowser is VERY secure on the edge, because he has a bombass getup attack. If your opponent knows bowser, he'll stay clear away from the edge to avoid that getup attack. At the same time, you should NOT make a habit of only recovering to the edge. If you make a habit of recovering to the edge, any good player will abuse that and just edgehog you every time.

I would say that a good starting point would be to switch between recovering to the edge, and recovering as far into the stage as possible. Recovering far onto the stage is great because most players will rarely anticipate that bowser can recover as far onto the stage as he can, and as long as they don't get to where you are BEFORE you hit the ground, you can just up-b as soon as you DO hit the ground (due to the nearly nonexistent lag of landing an up-b). More often than not, this recovery allows you to punish them, rather then letting them punish you.

Okay, those are the main problems in my opinion. Mainly, you just need to stop spamming moves.

I definitely went through the spamming phase, and it's just something that you've gotta train yourself to not do. If you play with better players that are good at punishing that sort of thing, it'll force you to adapt. What helps me is to separate a match mentality from a training mentality. While training, you can go crazy with all the shffls and fortress hogs and bowser bomb hogs and all that. While you're playing a match, settle down and play smart.

That was a bit long-winded, but I hope it helps.
 

KevinM

TB12 TB12 TB12
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
13,625
Location
Sickboi in the 401
I can never give good advice on mediocre Bowsers (this is not meant to be offensive) because there isn't a lot of tech skill I can point out.

You just need to punish techs and play smarter really -_- it's really hard with Bowser god he's bad.
 

DTKPch

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
369
Fair, Bair, and Up-B are not Bowser's only good moves. Try using some of his tilts now and then. For example, when Mewtwo up-b's back onto the stage, you often try to punish it with a shffl'd fair or bair. However, the shorthop takes way too much time, and he shields by the time you attack. Try just ftilting him sometimes.

Also, it's very situational but a neutral b can catch the opponent off guard every now and then.

You're using fsmash way to much. Usmash is alright if they just landed on a platform above you. Dsmash is also very situational, and I guess you could use it for tech chases, but very sparingly. In most of those situations where you would fsmash, just ftilt.

Oh, and like everyone's been saying, just improve your tech skill. Miss fewer l-cancels, etc. etc.
 

Gimpyfish62

Banned (62 points)
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
12,297
Location
Edmonds, Washington
dont listen to anyone who is telling you to stop wavedashing/dashdancing/etc it's part of your playstyle and its fine as long as you don't wavedash when you have opportunities for other things. don't use it as an approach or anything and be careful when you use it because it creates lag you would otherwise not have. dashdancing has its uses as well depending on when you use it. the way you are using it is just sort of to make your movement a bit harder to read - which is fine - but the application of the dash dance comes in the form of dodge/punish for certain air approaches. it's a great way to land extra grabs.

anyways, the advice i most often have to give to bowser players comes up yet again.

klaw more and grab more

klaw like there is no tomorrow so that you learn how to not miss with it. if you aren't making use of bowser's klaw and grab game your shffl's are going to be pointless because its retardedly easy to just block/punish everything that fat bowser has.

another little piece of advice is dont be afraid to use the stage - make use of those platforms. you are wayyyyyyyy grounded and that becomes easy to stop. use the platforms to not only make yourself faster but to make yourself less predictable. wavelanding is where its at.

also play against a real character if you can lol its more helpful than learning mewtwo XD
 

highandmightyjoe

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
822
Location
Alexandria, VA
That actually looks alot like my Bowser. I liked it, and I agree that your style is just fine and you shouldn't change it just fine tune it. I would like to give more in depth advice but those where all Bowser/Mewtwo matches and I now NOTHING about that matchup, I'm not even sure I had seen one until just now. Interesting though.
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
3,186
Location
Göteborg, Sweden
Whenever your opponent starts lagging you try to punish with fair shffl, which isn't very good since it's to slow. There are situations when it is useful as a punisher, but usually it isn't, go for the grab instead. You're a bit more aggressive then a bowser should be imo, approaching (or attacking at all lulz) is very risky with bowser since he lags so much. Wait for your opponent instead.
Other then that, very, very good. Your bowser seems faster then most and when you're not being to aggressive you outspace him very well with your DD game (like at 0:28 on the second video....mmmm that was beatiful)
BTW a little something about that specific matchup: Use utilt for killing more. It's much more powerful then it looks and kills mewtwo at 80-90%
It has beastly priority aswell, it probably outprioritizes most of mewtwos arials. So if he approaches from the air in the killing percent, go for the utilt

EDIT: GIMPYFISH! I just skimmed through the ENTIRE phanna matchup thread because you said you'd make a post about bowsers matchups... and you never did! :mad:
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
3,186
Location
Göteborg, Sweden
youve started using the klaw. nice
But you're using it as a standing attack to much. It's good out of the air against shieldgrabbers and stuff (you jump, they think you're gonna do an arial, they put up their shield to shieldgrab, you klaw them), but as a standing, close range attack... no
You're using it whenever you end up in front of him, close range, on the ground. Not good, it's not fast enough for that. Use the up-b instead in those situations, or run up and and dash grab him if you're to far away for the up-b and have enough time.

When you get grabs on him, you always seem to go for the dthrow. You shouldn't go for the dthrow unless you're very good at tech chasing. Go for uthrows against falcon (unless youre close the edge, throw him off if you are), it can almost always combo into a fair (possibly followed by an up-b or another grab) depending on percent and DI and stuff.
Uthrow is good even if youre under a platform cuz you can tech chase him there. platform tech chasing is easy, safe and effective (ie: throw someone onto a platform, follow their tech with a shffl'd arial from below. And remember that the fair goes through platforms.). Abuse it.

Oh, and edgeguarding. You seriously need to ftilt more in your edgeguarding, you go for the bair to much. Bair is great and all, it kills at lower percents... but against falcon you might aswell go for the ftilt because his recovery is so crappy/predictable that you can just ftilt him again if he survives.
Also, I think the ftilt outprioritizes or atleast trades hits with the uair (and maybe even the knee?), so even if they try to come back with an attack they'll get owned.
So just ftilting whenever he tries to come pretty much always works (angled downwards if he tries to sweetspot), unless he goes above you, jump up and fair him if he does that (or uair if you want to be sexy and if it'll kill him)
You can also edgehog->get up attack (->fsmash or ftilt!! :p) or ledgehop klaw if you feel like it, unless he has the option of landing on a platform

And most importantly:
You seem to try to go for DD/WD->grab, but as bowser vs falcon this is pretty much impossible, since falcon moves 10000x faster then him. It's not that you're bad at it or anything, it's just that it's not really possible in this matchup.
You should shield->fortress more instead. You hardly went for this at all, which is weird because it's **** and it's safe to use.
and try to tilt or fair him out of his arials cuz they're low priority. This is hard because you need to space yourself perfectly and since bowser is so slow you need to know where he is gonna be and when long beforehand, but otherwise it's a good thing.

Also try to set up for more low % edgeguards (if possible, I didn't see many oppurtunities :p), falcon is a fast faller with a ****ty recovery, try to abuse that. More low % kills in general
 

Omni_Smash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
175
Pretty good, I think you are around my skill level with bowser. The only thing I do more is use nuetral air when some one is right on top of me, in the air of course.
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
I'll watch video two and video three, since you were warming up in the first one.

No johns, by the way.

Match one!

Hit start just anywhere on the screen and you'll get a random stage.

There's really no reason for you to use the Klaw on the ground. Seriously, just grab. The Klaw is ten frames slower in terms of startup lag. It's really only useful in the air.

You're wasting a lot of movement. Yes it's cool to dashdance and wavedash like Falcon, but his dashdance and wavedash are much better than yours and he can still hit you even if you're doing that stuff. Not safe.

You're holding your shield button too long for techs and L-cancels. Stoppit. Just tap it once and you're done. If you get the tech/L-cancel, great. If not, holding it won't help you anyway.

You should really be DI'ing out of Falcon's combos. It's hard to avoid them when you're filling half the stage, but you should try, anyway. You're getting set up for a lot of things that you really shouldn't be.

1:24 would've been a good idea to fair or nair or something. But playing it safe is cool too.

If you're playing version 1.0, flame cancels can really bog down a Falcon's movement. Don't spam it, but it's useful.

I don't know why you're going into the middle of the stage against Falcon. You're just giving him a lot of room to fly around you and combo you.

The dthrow tech chase clearly isn't working. Try uthrowing instead.

You are missing a lot of techs. Try to fix that.

You need to edgeguard way more aggressively. It's the only thing you have over Falcon. Your mindset should be that if you get him off, he should never get back on. Ledgehopped Klaws and bairs are good for this.

Sweetspot the edge, please.

3:01 was a good time for a ledgehop Klaw. After the bthrow from it, you can Fortresshog pretty easily. So do it.

Play less defensively. I know it's a pretty weird thing to say Bowser against Falcon, but you will get buried if you let him control the pace of the match.

Match two.

Nice use of the Fortress. Use it to punish anything Falcon does. It gets to them. Especially the sound. Once you connect with it, follow up with it. It'll keep them wary.

You need to be more confident with your edgeguarding. No, you might not hit if you shffl a bair, but it's way more likely you'll hit them that way than if you just empty short hop. You can even use the flame cancel or ftilt if you're not sure of the timing.

If you run at someone who's flat on the ground, you can usually expect them to getup attack or roll away. So be ready to shield cancel the run for the first option or just keep running if they roll away.

Your approach should really be shffl'd fairs. If they shield in anticipation, Klaw. Running Klaws are bad.

1:30 should've been a ledgehop Klaw.

1:31 you really have to be more aggressive. If he shields, Klaw him. Don't double jump away.

Nice edgeguarding at 2:10. That's how you have to play. Limit Falcon's movement and you'll cripple his game. Get him off the edge and take the stock.

3:03 is scary for you. You do not want to put yourself off the stage against Falcon. One stomp and you're dead. Plus, even if you did grab him with the Klaw, you have your back to the stage, so it's really not that useful. Just stick with basic edgeguarding.

3:50 when you grab him like that, you should really dthrow. If he rolls behind you, you can catch him fairly easily, and if he rolls in front of you, you can nail him with a fair. No pun intended. The stage limits his tech there, which is good news for your tech chasing.

Okay, 3:52 to 3:57. You got him off the stage and he double jumped immediately to get back on three times. Three times! You should read it after the second time, if not the first, and intercept with a fair for the kill. Mindgames and aggressive edgeguarding are the only way a Bowser will ever beat a Falcon.

4:04 come on! FOUR TIMES!!

4:19 don't fsmash. Yes, it's funny and humiliating and powerful, but it's also slow, easy to avoid and honestly, not that good. The fsmash sends people upward quite a bit, so unless you can kill them outright, you lose the edgeguarding position. Ftilt or fair instead.

So yeah, work on reading your opponent, knowing when to Klaw and when to fair, techs, EDGEGUARDING and being aggressive. When in doubt, Fortress. It's not that easy to punish, it's fast, has good priority, does good damage, hits hard, sets up nicely, lets you move around and hits all around. It's an incredible move.

Also, learn how far out you can go with the fair. Although it is safer, staying on the stage to edgeguard puts the recovery game in your opponent's hands. If you go out and attack them, they have far less control. So do it.
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
3,186
Location
Göteborg, Sweden
flame cancels are not only useless but unsafe and dangerous to use for anything but edgeguarding against falcon. Its wind down lag is way to much. Since falcon is so fast, he's gonna be able to punish you even if you hit him with it.

And he shouldn't approach to much with the fair either (look at his older vids and the old comments lol, people told him not to do that) if he misses or if it gets shielded he's going to get punished. Sure it's better then a klaw from the ground, but as boozer you shouldn't really approach much at all (lol, sad but true). You should play slower and try to space yourself so your opponent misses and punish with a tilt or grab (if its a tilt youre gonna have to start the attack before their attack ends, ie before the hitboxes are gone or before theyve even come out. bowser is slow. btw, remember that bowser moves backwards slightly when he ftilts, people seriously need to abuse that more)
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
That's why you don't wait for him to get out to stop. You stop before you think he'll break free, and then you'll be free as well to do something else, since the flame still travels outwards a bit after you stop.

Yeah, he shouldn't always approach with the fair, but it's probably Bowser's best approach, other than the grab. It also gives him a nice mixup between the aerial Klaw and the fair, which covers a lot. As long as you don't miss, you'll be fine.

You can't space against Falcon, though, that's the problem. He can just fly around and hammer at you if you play defensively, and you can't do anything about it, especially if the Falcon approaches with the nair.
 

Sans Glutin

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
759
Location
Yesterday
I'm Aspect. I definitely wasn't playing my best there, and I was kind of goofing off in parts (every time I taunted and did a falcon punch should have given you an indication of that), but until we put more vids up, that's all I have for you to critique. So do you guys have any tips?
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
Well for one, you're too tentative with your combos. You should be confident in that one hit WILL lead to the next, instead of waiting and seeing what happens before reacting. You're throwing up your shield a lot even when your hits connect - whether that's from botched L-cancels or caution - and that's breaking up the flow of your combos.

Can you dthrow chaingrab Bowser? I can't remember. Probably not too important.

Edgeguard more aggressively. Unless you're playing against a Bowser with the reflexes of God, a stomp will generally kill them, because Bowser's vertical recovery doesn't exist.

You get up from the ledge VERY predictably. You either roll or ledgehop a knee, and you never ledgestall, which means as soon as you let go of the ledge, they know you're going to ledgehop, so they can smack you out of your second jump and there goes your stock. So mix it up, ledgestall and learn to ledgehop nairs. They're good.

Don't get grabbed by a dashing Klaw. That's just embarassing.
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
3,186
Location
Göteborg, Sweden
elevenarrow-flame canel still wont help because he'll be able to punish you even if you hit
youre right about the fair though
Aspect-first off no johns, second your sig is gay and stupid. third, stop trying to combo with the downtilt, it doesn't work until pretty high percent, and even then it isn't that good. do more nair->nair combos (from uthrow or boost), works wonders on bowser. or nair->uair->nair if you think it's easier (i actually think its harder though lol) or nair->uair->uair if they try to DI up. Or nair->regrab if they don't go high enough for you to follow up with a nair or uair
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
I dunno, in my experience, Fire Breath connected isn't that easy to punish if the Bowser isn't an idiot.

Prove it to me!

=P
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
3,186
Location
Göteborg, Sweden
I just lags to much, if you get hit just DI away, then wait for him to stop using the firebreath (ie when he lets let go of b) and then get in there and hit him asap. And if you didn't have time to DI out of the flames it's even easier to punish him, cuz you're gonna be closer to him when he stops.
The flames have almost no hitstun AND the firebreath has loads of wind down lag when the flames aren't out at all. So unless your opponent is a slow character he'd have to be an idiot not to punish you.
It only works if it's completely out of the blue, they're not ready for it at all and aren't in a good position to punish you. But falcon is so fast he's always in a good position to punish you lol
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
It looks like nine frames before next action and the flame disappearing... thirty-one between stopping and the next action.

I don't know for sure though, there's not any accurate frame data.
 

Magus420

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
4,541
Location
Close to Trenton, NJ Posts: 4,071
You don't even need to DI outside of it. If you ASDI it down you can reach the ground and get your shield up almost immediately then roll behind and grab or do a quick move before he can do anything.
 
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