Toon's Treasure Charts!
-First Post: The Lakeside Laboratory
-Second Post: Toon's Bottomless Bag of ATs and Tricks
The Lakeside Laboratory
General Introduction and Summary
Welcome to the Lab. This is the place where we'll work together to test and develop anything and everything Toon related. If you find something cool or interesting that might in some small way go towards the sum of Toon knowledge, then this is the place to post it. Once this information gets inside this thread, we will work together to get the most out of it. If you want to discuss any of Toon's weaknesses that you want to overcome, then point it out and we'll put our heads together to think of different ways around it. If you see potential in any of Toon's game that you would like to see developed further, then feel free to suggest it and we'll look into it together. If you ever need something tested or checked, then this is the place to ask. Anything that goes towards developing Toon's metagame like tricks or combos etc, this is the place. You get the idea.
So what will I be doing?
Good question.
Other than contributing myself of course, the OP will become a place where the important discussion is collected as a point of easy reference for those who want to catch up without having to look through all the pages of this thread and as a place where you can come to learn what has been discovered so far. Here's how it's gonna work.
First of all, as stated above, everyone contributes by posting relevant material as outlined in the summary of this thread.
(In the second post of this thread, you will find an up to date list of ATs. Feel free to check it out to give you some ideas for things to talk about or develop. As this thread continues to discover more about Toon Link, the second post will be updated with any new discoveries.)
Once discussion gets going, I will continue to update this post with your quotes. This will involve the original idea and then any helpful contributions that are made after it that actually go towards some sort of a conclusion or advancement. In the end, I will ultimately be deciding what gets quoted and what does not. Don't take it personally if you don't get quoted. I probably had my reasons. Just keep trying to post helpfully and productively. If your post is attempting to start a new idea that we should discuss and you haven't been quoted yet, the chances are I'm just sitting back and watching where the idea is going first. Once I see that the idea is going somewhere, I will be obliged to quote it and only too happy to do so.
Quoted Ideas and Useful/Helpful Responses
Read through this section so you can get instantly up to date with any of the previous discussions instead of having to read through the entire thread. This will give you a general idea of what we are discussing and will help you contribute.
For the sake of making it easier and quicker to read and catch up, I have edited some of the quotes. The full posts can of course be found in this thread. Typically if I add any writing of my own [it will be like this].
Currently updated up to this post: http://smashboards.com/threads/trea...h-lab-and-at-list.380910/page-8#post-20517374
New Z-drop Mechanics. Now what?
Well like it or not, we're stuck with it. When you go to Z-drop a Bomb, the Zair/Tether comes out. Let's talk about possible ways around this issue and possible uses for our new-found powers.
Issues with and Applications of Zair in Smash 4
Things are different in smash 4 and the use of Zair hasn't escaped these changes. What was once an invaluable tool has become more difficult to utilise. Discuss beneficial uses, problems and ways to work around those problems.
IZAC: Very difficult, is it worth learning?
This is a debate that goes back to Brawl. And in smash 4 the IZAC is arguably even more difficult to perform, yet for some reason it is still used.
Options out of Jab 1 or Jab 2 other than Jab 3?
Should you just go with the full three Jabs or try something sneaky to potentially get a greater reward?
They see me Rolling
Is Toon's roll useful now?
Getting the most damage out of favourable situations
There is always a 'best' way to do things, and essentially, finding the best way to play Toon is at the heart of what a metagame thread is all about. In the following posts you'll find a few ways to get the most damage out of certain scenarios.
Notes on Combos/Strings
Working out what combos at what percents.
Analysing Projectile Properties and In Game Strategies with them
Lest we forget. http://smashboards.com/threads/anal...rties-and-in-game-stategies-with-them.208562/
Any miscellaneous projectile stuff that doesn't quite need it's own section will go in here.
Grabs and Throws
Toon isn't exactly known for his amazing grab/throw game, except of course that Back-throw is a kill throw. So other than killing with B-throw, what do we have, and how can we get grabs in the first place?
Shield-Stun Stuff
What now? Contribute of course!
You can add something on to a previous discussion ^ or you can create a new topic of conversation. So if you have anything to share, go for it! Note that there are some things that have been discussed in this thread that have not yet been given their own topic, so it wouldn't hurt to have a read through some of the more recent posts at least to get an idea of some potential future topics that you could contribute to.
If you don't have anything to contribute atm, then feedback about this thread is also nice to hear.
-First Post: The Lakeside Laboratory
-Second Post: Toon's Bottomless Bag of ATs and Tricks
The Lakeside Laboratory
General Introduction and Summary
Welcome to the Lab. This is the place where we'll work together to test and develop anything and everything Toon related. If you find something cool or interesting that might in some small way go towards the sum of Toon knowledge, then this is the place to post it. Once this information gets inside this thread, we will work together to get the most out of it. If you want to discuss any of Toon's weaknesses that you want to overcome, then point it out and we'll put our heads together to think of different ways around it. If you see potential in any of Toon's game that you would like to see developed further, then feel free to suggest it and we'll look into it together. If you ever need something tested or checked, then this is the place to ask. Anything that goes towards developing Toon's metagame like tricks or combos etc, this is the place. You get the idea.
So what will I be doing?
Good question.
Other than contributing myself of course, the OP will become a place where the important discussion is collected as a point of easy reference for those who want to catch up without having to look through all the pages of this thread and as a place where you can come to learn what has been discovered so far. Here's how it's gonna work.
First of all, as stated above, everyone contributes by posting relevant material as outlined in the summary of this thread.
(In the second post of this thread, you will find an up to date list of ATs. Feel free to check it out to give you some ideas for things to talk about or develop. As this thread continues to discover more about Toon Link, the second post will be updated with any new discoveries.)
Once discussion gets going, I will continue to update this post with your quotes. This will involve the original idea and then any helpful contributions that are made after it that actually go towards some sort of a conclusion or advancement. In the end, I will ultimately be deciding what gets quoted and what does not. Don't take it personally if you don't get quoted. I probably had my reasons. Just keep trying to post helpfully and productively. If your post is attempting to start a new idea that we should discuss and you haven't been quoted yet, the chances are I'm just sitting back and watching where the idea is going first. Once I see that the idea is going somewhere, I will be obliged to quote it and only too happy to do so.
Quoted Ideas and Useful/Helpful Responses
Read through this section so you can get instantly up to date with any of the previous discussions instead of having to read through the entire thread. This will give you a general idea of what we are discussing and will help you contribute.
For the sake of making it easier and quicker to read and catch up, I have edited some of the quotes. The full posts can of course be found in this thread. Typically if I add any writing of my own [it will be like this].
Currently updated up to this post: http://smashboards.com/threads/trea...h-lab-and-at-list.380910/page-8#post-20517374
New Z-drop Mechanics. Now what?
Well like it or not, we're stuck with it. When you go to Z-drop a Bomb, the Zair/Tether comes out. Let's talk about possible ways around this issue and possible uses for our new-found powers.
You can z-drop a bomb and re-catch it near a ledge by instantly hitting down to cancel the tether (then just double jump and catch the bomb with e.g. an aerial).
You can also z-drop the bomb without the Zair coming out if you do it immediately after a ledge jump (similar to the well known z-drop instantly after a SH/FH.) This is only really interesting as it makes me wonder if there are any other ways to z-drop without the zair coming out, and more importantly, why does it work in these cases but not in others?
So I found three new ways to z-drop a bomb without doing a Zair/tether.
There are the previously known ways of doing this which is to SH/FH then instantly z-drop or to ledge jump and instantly z-drop.
I had often wondered why that was, but in any case, I found that the same thing can be done by z-dropping immediately after an aerial (I tested it with Nair, Bair, Fair and Uair), out of a footstool, and out of hitstun.
Everything else will result in a bomb throw (so no special moves or airdodge etc).
So we can do stuff like double jump ZAC out of an aerial (you'd have to do something like the BFO first) or out of hitstun. Pretty cool.
I wonder if we can find any uses for the new Z bomb drop. I've been trying a ton, but I can't really find any except maybe for escaping. Even then, TL already has tons of options for escaping, most of which are better than escaping with zair and bomb drops.
As for possible uses for the new zair + z-drop, well I guess it makes it so that poorly spaced Zairs are safer now and for that matter it makes retreating Zairs generally safer.
Also if you Zair upon landing after a FH or from a generally greater height than a SH, you can immediately catch the bomb with an aerial (so you can do stuff like FH bomb pull, Zair(at full length if timed correctly)+drop, land, SH/FH aerial to re-catch the bomb). It's a good point though. That is to say, all this talk about trying to find ways to z-drop without the Zair coming out means there has been some neglect as to how we can use what we've been given.
I think we shouldn't be focussing on the 4% the Bomb is doing, or even necessarily on the fact that we can catch the Bomb, heck, we shouldn't even necessarily be focussing on IZAC. What we should be focusing on is how much better Instant Z-dropping is in a game where the Bomb blast doesn't hurt us. It means that we can have a hitbox coming out immediately as we are leaving the ground that has absolutely no end lag and that combos into our aerials. This is kind of a big deal. It means that if we have a Bomb, all of our aerials may as well come out on frame 2 when we are up close.
Something strange I found the other day abut Instant z-dropping a bomb the other day is if you drop the bomb just in front of the opponent and wait a second and Nair. Mostly on fatties you will get a triple hit.
When running towards an opponent. If you z-drop the bomb just in front of them without it exploding and perform a Nair. For some reason you will be guaranteed the Nair's double hit and the bomb explosion will also somehow connect.
[Also,] I found something kinda useful when applying Instant Z-drops that I think you're going to love Fox.
Take a look:
/watch?v=2DqRCELsQ5g
Just throw the link in to a Youtube URL.
You'll notice that doing this can force a foostool if they fail to shield it. If they do shield however, you are left with some options. Whilst they sit in shield panicking about the bomb you could even pull another right after Instant dropping that one.
[And of course, when you are this close to the ground,] footstools CANNOT be tech'd.
[While this can be done by simply throwing the Bomb downwards and then footstooling,] when throwing the bomb downwards you have more cooldown and actually need to follow the DI of the opponent when doing it this way. Instant z-drop allows us to footstool them the moment it hits them giving us wider options than usual.
Issues with and Applications of Zair in Smash 4
Things are different in smash 4 and the use of Zair hasn't escaped these changes. What was once an invaluable tool has become more difficult to utilise. Discuss beneficial uses, problems and ways to work around those problems.
something that's bugged me from the start is how after performing an aerial, if you buffer a lagless zair, it'll result in an airdodge.
For example I'll double jump Fair, Fast fall, and try to zair, but it'll airdodge instead.
Why is that, and is there a way to avoid it?
In Brawl there used to be a similar issue that when you buffered a Zair out of something, you would airdodge, and the way to avoid this was to input the Zair manually (instead of just the grab button, you'd press the shield then the attack or grab button (you need to hold the shield button if you want to use the attack button)). Things have changed in smash 4 and this issue is now way more problematic.
For starters, you have to wait till the absolute end of the animation of anything before doing a Zair with just the grab button, otherwise you'll just get an airdodge. To clarify, this isn't even about buffering any more. You cannot even Zair with the grab button in the IASA frames. What I'm saying is that because Toon is still busy with the animation of e.g. a Full hop Nair by the time he is well on his way back down, until Toon goes completely back to an animation of him falling as if you never did a move, pressing the grab button will always result in an airdodge. To give you an idea, if you are perfect with your timing, you can only barely get out a hitbox of Zair after a Full hop Nair by just pressing the grab button.
Secondly, there is a new buffering system that doesn't allow multiple inputs to be buffered, this mean that you can only buffer the airdodge out of something, not the Zair (this is if you are going for the shield button plus attack/grab button manual Zair work-around).
Thirdly of course, cancelling airdodge with a Zair will still result in the airdodge's landing lag.
What does all this mean?
Well if you want to land with only the lag of Zair you need to be absolutely sure that every last bit of the previous move's animation is finished. You will actually have to wait till Toon visibly looks like he is in his neutral aerial state, and only then may you press the grab button.
If however you know that you'll get the Zair if you do it out of the IASA frames of the previous move, which in many cases is much much earlier, or the situation is such that it doesn't matter if you get the lag of the airdodge, then the method you'll want to use is to buffer the airdodge only, then use the grab button only (immediately) when the airdodge actually comes out. If you are used to the method where you use the attack button to cancel the airdodge, you'll now need to make sure that you hold the shield button instead of just pressing them both at the same time to buffer both. I cannot stress, you must wait till the airdodge animation actually comes out. It is still possible with this method to get a full length Zair after a full hop Nair if you time everything perfectly.
Currently, there is no real solution, only understanding and acceptance, but I'm open for any ideas.
IZAC: Very difficult, is it worth learning?
This is a debate that goes back to Brawl. And in smash 4 the IZAC is arguably even more difficult to perform, yet for some reason it is still used.
To be honest though, I have been the only Toon Link so far who's probably nailed the instant z-drop. It's no easy trick. I've gotten a few other Toon Links interested in learning it now but even they can agree it is one of the most demanding AT's Toon Link has. What I like about Insant Z-drop myself is the ability to just nair and land with a bomb in my hand making me somewhat safe still. It also really confuses the opponent.
There are other Toon's that use it but it still has the stigma attached to it that it did from Brawl back when practically no-one used IZAC even though it was considered one of our better AT's. I consider it to be even better in this game, due to the Bomb not hurting us allowing it to be used in very close proximity as well, but it's also riskier due to the potential of accidentally doing an aggressive rising Zair that will miss most characters and leave Toon completely open.
I honestly don't see IZAC being all that useful at this point. I think it was extremely useful when we had BLC [he's talking about the 'bomb lag cancel', it was patched out], but now we cant autocancel aerials from IZAC like we could previously. Plus, I don't think it will come in handy at high level play. One thing that alot of people, especially TL mains in Brawl, seem to overcomplicate is tech skill/learning or using every technique we have in every situation. I just don't think its worth the time and risk to try in tournament when its not all that reliable anymore, especially when we can focus on just getting solid stage control and keepaway setup instead. If you have time to go up to your opponent and IZAC nair or whatever, that means you could've gone the safe route and just bomb to faired. Cause all in all, both options will lose to shield.
It can be useful in the Rosalina matchup, but I'd rather just play smart than rely on something that you have to do in 2 frames that doesnt autocancel, isnt very safe, and is situational.
I've still made super good use of IZAC so personally I don't see a problem in learning it or not. It's not gonna make you become uberly good learning it. It's like any other tech you can learn. You must learn how to apply it, just like I have. Now, Zan is correct, It can be shielded but you cannot ignore that it is a mix up (a damn good one at that) Yes we can't act out of Nair instantly but against most characters who don't have ridiculous dash attacks, It's still stable enough when spaced.
I don't abuse IZAC like it was quickdraws in brawl. But I will use it from time to time as a mix up and it works don't get me wrong. You might think people can punish it easily but if you simply pull back and then run with a JC back throw you're pretty much covered. You don't even need to catch the bomb alternatively, delay the ariel and ignore the bomb leaving some shield pressure if you even want. IZAC it's self may not have uberly good options. But the tech Instant Z-Drop it's self has uses because of bombs no longer exploding in our face now.
Options out of Jab 1 or Jab 2 other than Jab 3?
Should you just go with the full three Jabs or try something sneaky to potentially get a greater reward?
I was wondering what your thoughts are on different options out of Jab 2. Grab might be the most useful, especially if they try to land and shield. Grounded Up B has actually been working for me as well. I feel like Up Smash or F Smash shouldn't really be reliable but I've gotten both to work out a couple of times.
I haven't tried Utilt yet, but thinking about it I feel it could work, especially against heavier characters or ones with larger hurtboxes, at least. Might be a useful way to get early Utilt strings + follow ups started, since Toon Link's jab isn't terribly slow and has okay range to intercept approaches with.
I've seen Toon Links short hop to Nair as an option out of Jab 2. Could be useful for trying to keep opponents out of your space if you're playing the heavy zoning game in the match up.
Has someone documented percentages for true follow-ups after Jab1? There are three hitboxes on it, only one has fixed knockback, and that hitbox has the lowest priority, meaning you'd have to hit with it at the absolute max range to prevent the others from outprioritizing it. That's great, because you want the hitboxes with knockback growth to register.
Its frame advantage increases as the opponent's damage goes up. It is heavily affected by fall speed, gravity, weight, and your own Rage. Much like with Jab follow-ups with Fox, you want the Jab1 to stun them for a while and then to gain extra frame advantage on their forced landing lag post-hitstun.
I've tested it with zero Rage and have confirmed that Jab1 -> D-Smash works on Ness, who is below-average in fall speed and gravity, after 70%. The timing is strict, but you have better frame advantage the higher the opponent's percent, so you'll have more leeway if they're at a higher percent. If you're too early, you'll just get Jab2, which isn't so bad. D-Smash is Frame 11, so getting Jab1 -> Standing Grab and Jab1 -> U-Smash should also be possible if you're up close (both being Frame 12).
The following lists every follow-up Toon can do out of Jab 1 on every character with a starting percent rounded to the nearest 5%. (I might get around to doing a finishing percent and getting percent specifics later, but from past experience, knowing how big this project is going to be, I'm taking this slowly for now).
It's all tested in 1/4 hold training mode (using my frame skip techniques) so any minor influence that rage and staleness might have on Jab 1 is not accounted for. I have assumed frame perfection on your part, so keep that in mind when considering how practical it is. Note that for any follow-up that requires an Attack/A-stick/C-stick/Grab input, there is no buffer window to make it easier.
As Reflex pointed out, there are three hitboxes on Jab 1. At the very tip of Jab 1 there is a hitbox with fixed knockback while the other two will increase in effectiveness the higher the opponent's percent.
Because however the other two hitboxes send the opponent at different trajectories, they yield different results, and so to distinguish them, I shall refer to them as HB1 (hitbox 1), and HB2 (hitbox 2). HB1 is located around Toon's hand, so you need to be close enough to the opponent that this hitbox connects and takes priority (it's by far the easiest to guarantee I've found), and it hits the opponent much more horizontally. HB2 is located in the middle of the sword and will hit the opponent more vertically than horizontally.
For Jab 1 to Jab 1 stuff, this requires you to Crouch Cancel between Jabs (as it saves a lot of frames). I'll refer to Crouch Cancelling a 'CC'. There are a few ways to CC, but my preferred method (seeing as I use the A-stick) is to hold the joystick down throughout and hit the A-stick diagonally (in any direction) with correct timing. Note that subsequent Jabs can be inputted on the frame after you start the crouch animation (so no, you don't have to be fully crouched, in fact that would just waste precious frames). In other words, while Jab 1 hits on frame 6, a CC Jab hits on frame 7 at best (which is still our fastest option). Note also that due to the hitboxes on Toon's Jab, you will not be able to keep the opponent in multiple Jab 1's (probably no more than 2), so try to finish with another follow-up (if available) as soon as it looks like they're getting out (otherwise just end it with Jab 2 and 3 or don't go for the second Jab at all). Finally just note that CCing is only necessary and is only helpful/beneficial if you want to do a Jab 1 to a Jab 1. Any other option at all can be done on the exact same frame that you can crouch on, so e.g. doing a Jab 1 > CC U-tilt would be stupid and unnecessary.
In order of how quickly they come out, these are our potential options out of Jab 1:
CC Jab: Frame 7
U-tilt: Frame 8
D-tilt: Frame 9
D-smash: Frame 9
Spin Attack: Frame 11
SH (forwards) Nair: Frame 11
Standing Grab: You'd be looking at like frame 15, minus a frame because it can't be shielded.
F-smash: Frame 15.
If an option doesn't work because it doesn't reach, (e.g. U-tilt, the first active frame of which has very poor reach), or because it misses for whatever reason (e.g. SH Nair going over people's heads due to their landing animation), or obviously if it can be avoided (e.g. by DJing before landing) it simply won't be mentioned.
I will not be testing beyond a reasonable percent, say, around 150% - 170% character dependent. So even if Jab to F-smash works at like 200%, I won't mention it.
If you have any further questions please ask.
Mario:
HB1 > CC Jab: 45%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 90%
Luigi:
HB1 > CC Jab: 10% - 40%
Peach:
Nope.
Bowser:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB2 > CC Jab: 85%
HB1 > U-tilt: 90%
HB2 > U-tilt: 105%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 130%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 150%
HB2 > Up-B or Nair: 160%
Yoshi:
HB1 > CC Jab: 25%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 65%
HB1 > Nair: 100% (must be SH'd forwards obviously)
Rosalina:
Nope.
Bowser Jr:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB2 > CC Jab: 85%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
Wario:
HB1 > CC Jab: 50%
HB2 > CC Jab: 85%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 110%
DK:
HB1 > CC Jab: 20%
HB1 > U-tilt: 45%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 70%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 120%
HB1 > Grab: 170%
Diddy:
HB1 > CC Jab: 70%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 95%
HB2 > CC Jab: 110%
MG&W:
HB1 > CC Jab: 20%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 50%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 80%
Lil Mac:
HB1 > CC Jab: 20%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 60%
HB1 > Nair: 100%
Link:
HB1 > CC Jab: 50%
HB2 > CC Jab: 70%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 100%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB1 > Nair: 145%
Zelda:
Nope.
Sheik:
HB1 > CC Jab: 70%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 105%
HB2 > CC Jab: 145%
Ganon:
HB1 > CC Jab: 80%
HB2 > CC Jab: 105%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 125%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 145%
Toon:
HB1 > CC Jab: 20%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 60%
HB1 > Nair: 90%
Samus:
HB1 > CC Jab: 10%
ZSS:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 105%
HB2 > CC Jab: 130%
HB1 > Nair: 145%
Pit / Dark Pit:
HB1 > CC Jab: 5%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 50%
HB1 > Nair: 90%
HB1 > F-smash or Grab: 160%
Palutena:
HB1 > CC Jab: 70%
HB2 > CC Jab: 110%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 110%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 150%
HB1 > Nair: 150%
Marth / Lucina:
HB1 > CC Jab: 10%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 45%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 85%
HB1 > F-smash or Grab: 160%
Ike:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB2 > CC Jab: 85%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 120%
Robin:
HB1 > CC Jab: 50%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 95%
HB1 > Nair: 130%
DHD:
HB1 > CC Jab: 10%
HB1 > U-tilt: 30%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 50%
HB1 > Up-B: 90%
HB1 > Grab: 150%
HB1 > F-smash: 165%
Kirby:
Nope.
DDD:
HB1 > CC Jab: 0%
HB2 > CC Jab: 30%
HB1 > U-tilt: 30%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 55%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 80%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 105%
HB2 > Up-B or Nair: 120%
MK:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 105%
Fox:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 105%
HB1 > Nair: 140%
HB2 > CC Jab: 150%
Falco:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt or U-tilt: 105%
HB1 > Nair: 145%
HB2 > CC Jab: 145%
Pika:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB1 > D-smash: 105%
Charizard:
HB1 > CC Jab: 80%
HB2 > CC Jab: 100%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 125%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 135%
HB1 > Nair: 165%
Lucario:
HB1 > CC Jab: 35%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt 80%
HB1 > Nair: 125%
Jiggs:
Nope.
Greninja:
Technically the following are not guaranteed because of Shadow Sneak, but:
HB1 > CC Jab: 70%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
Rob:
HB1 > CC Jab: 55%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 105%
HB1 > Nair: 150%
Ness:
HB1 > CC Jab: 15%
HB1 > U-tilt: 35%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 55%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 90%
CF:
HB1 > CC Jab: 75%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 120%
HB1 > Nair: 160%
HB2 > CC Jab: 160%
Villager:
HB1 > CC Jab: 15%
HB1 > U-tilt: 40%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 60%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 95%
Olimar:
Nope.
Wii Fit:
HB1 > CC Jab: 50%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 85%
HB1 > Nair: 115%
Shulk Vanilla:
HB1 > CC Jab: 40%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 85%
HB1 > Nair: 125%
Shulk Jump
HB1 > CC Jab: 75%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB2 > CC Jab 125%
HB1 > Nair: 160%
Shulk Speed
HB1 > CC Jab: 40%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 85%
HB1 > Nair: 125%
Shulk Shield
HB1 > CC Jab 180%
Shulk Buster
HB1 > CC Jab: 40%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 85%
HB1 > Nair: 125%
Hulk Smash
HB1 > CC Jab: 15%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 55%
HB1 > Nair: 95%
HB > Grab: 140%
HB1 > F-smash: 155%
Doc:
HB1 > CC Jab: 45%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 90%
Pac:
Nope.
MM:
HB1 > CC Jab: 75%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB2 > CC Jab: 125%HB1 > Nair: 170%
Sonic:
HB1 > CC Jab: 55%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 95%
Mewtwo:
HB1 > CC Jab: 5%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 45%
HB1 > Nair: 80%
HB1 > Up-B: 95%
HB1 > F-smash or Grab: 145%
Lucas:
HB1 > CC Jab: 30%
HB1 > U-tilt: 50%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 70%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 105%
HB1 > Grab: 150%
HB1 > F-smash: 165%
Roy:
HB1 > CC Jab: 70%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB2 > CC Jab: 120%
Ryu:
HB1 > CC Jab: 75%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 120%
HB2 > CC Jab: 140%
Brawler:
HB1 > CC Jab: 75%
HB2 > CC Jab: 100%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 140%
HB1 > Nair: 160%
Gunner:
HB1 > CC Jab: 45%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt or U-tilt: 90%
HB1 > Up-B: 135%
Sword:
HB1 > CC Jab: 50%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 100%
HB1 > Nair: 140%
They see me Rolling
Is Toon's roll useful now?
Apparently Toon is equal with the best dodges in the game. http://smashboards.com/threads/roll-air-dodge-frame-data.401323/
I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe we should consider doing more rolls/spotdodges/airdodges. [That really does sound stupid...]
Wow. Toon with the BEST roll in the game?? That'll take a while for me to fully internalize.
Looking at the Brawl frame data... lol, we had by far the largest jump in roll ranking.
Well his air dodge is amazing, but even if his roll is otherwise good it just doesn't go far enough to be very useful. The lack of distance really kills the point of moving while dodging.
Well, in addition to this, there's also the fact that most of our options out of a roll are relatively slow.
Getting the most damage out of favourable situations
There is always a 'best' way to do things, and essentially, finding the best way to play Toon is at the heart of what a metagame thread is all about. In the following posts you'll find a few ways to get the most damage out of certain scenarios.
I found a neat setup for toon link starting for most characters around 0-10% and working up til around 40-50% (compensating for weight class and fall speed, etc, so some values for certaincharacters would be different)
You can throw down and fast fall a bomb from above your opponent before you hit the ground, and immediately act on the ground into an uptilt (most of the time two utilts will work) which leads into most of TL's moves
[From this point he's talking about things you can do after the U-tilt]
For faster fallers I know that bair works when you start the combo around 15-25%, F-smash works from 10% and im not sure how high that goes, I know for a fact that it will only work properly on fox around 10+%, at 0 he falls too fast and hits the ground after the bomb hits, so I dont think you can hit him with the utilt cause im pretty sure he can shield
I know that jab, fsmash, usmash, dsmash, and nair work on fox at 10-20%, bair works on all characters and differing percent ranges (though for some characters the timing is a bit different so compensate for their weight class and fall speed), fair doesnt work since it's got too much startup lag (from what I understand)
using bair is a 0-25% guaranteed setup, fsmash is 0-40, nair is 0-20, dsmash is 0-27 if facing opponent, 0-21 if facing away
It's possible to cause a forced get-up without a platform with Toon Link. Just as a disclaimer, I've only had this work at very low percents (0-6 on Mario) but it does work.
So far I've found 2 ways to do this. The first is to jump cancel toss a bomb and immediately footstool them. The bomb puts them in the air so the footstool puts them in an untechable knockdown. From there immediately dair as soon as you can off the footstool. Because the percent is so low, the dair does not spike him and puts him in a 'locked' state. A strange side effect of using dair is that the windbox pushes him away. From this point I've found that a dash grab can connect despite the push. This does a cool 20% before the grab connects so a total of 20 + however much you can get off the grab.
The second way is a bit more tricky. You have to throw out the boomerang and footstool the opponent when the boomerang hits coming back. The main reason this is harder is because the boomerang catching animation can interrupt your attempt at footstooling. After the footstool everything works the same as before.
Well in case anyone is wondering I can confirm that this is legit. To clarify though, it stops working when Mario is on 6% before the JC bomb throw.
There is one big problem with this though. Both the character being footstooled and Toon have some control over which way the landing windbox pushes them, and if they get pushed off the edge of the stage or platform, they immediately regain control. Toon can move slightly left or right once the Dair connects while the opponent can move left and right after they are footstooled. It might end up being character specific, but with Mario at least, he has more control than Toon does, so he can deliberately drift towards the edge after being footstooled to get himself pushed off the edge. But that's not the worst of it. Characters with high aerial speed or who are floaty or who are just small can actually avoid the Dair altogether. To give you a idea, Toon can actually avoid it (just) by drifting behind the attacking Toon (Mario can't avoid it either way).
As for follow-ups, Dash attack is also possible. It does 8% while the throws do 7%, but then if you tacked on a single pummel for 2%, well yeah. Neither lead into anything else.
But then the potential follow ups will depend on the character you're versing.
For example, against a Bowser, you can do pretty much anything because he doesn't get sent that far away from you due to his weight.
E.g. you can actually land an F-smash on him into f-smash 2, for an inescapable combo that does 41%.
It is worth noting at this point that it will stop working when Bowser is on 9% before the JC throw.
Alternatively you can walk forward slightly and get Bowser in some U-tilts before he can shield.
How to get the most out of hitting the opponent with a boomerang?:
If you're holding a bomb and you throw a regular boomerang up close or even at a short/decent distance (a roll's distance away or even more depending on their percent) you can combo out of this if you immediately dash in and JC throw the bomb. A regular throw won't combo unless you're right up close which just doesn't happen all that often. At a short distance, not only will the JC throw ensure you get the combo, but it will put you in place for following this up for even more guaranteed damage.
Mario at 0%: at roughly a roll's distance or less, boomerang to JC throw to F-smash is so close to being guaranteed. If you do F-smash 1 early enough it will register as a combo, but then Mario will be too high for the second hit to combo, and if you delay the first hit so that the second f-smash combos, the first hit won't combo. If the character you're versing is even slightly less floaty, then this is without a doubt going to work. 33% reliable string.
Boomerang to JC throw to footstool to Dair is 28% but on Mario is doesn't lock as there was too much damage dealt by the boomerang, so that's as far as that combo goes.
Boomerang to JC throw to U-tilt obviously works, but at this percent you're not getting much out of it after that, unless someone else can find something. If you delay the U-tilt slightly you can still register it as a combo and get a second U-tilt to combo, but then Mario is still at too low of a percent to remain in hitstun for long enough to get a follow up after that. U-smash is really close though, and that would get you 35% all up.
This one could use a bit of work.
Mario at 25%: at roughly a roll's distance or less, boomerang to JC throw to U-tilt to U-air registers as a 31% 4 hit combo.
Let's see you top that XD.
Mario at 50%: more than a roll's distance or less, boomerang to JC throw to dash in U-air registers as a solid 26% 3 hit combo.
That's 1% extra than the Fair and it puts them above you.
Notes on Combos/Strings
Working out what combos at what percents.
A while back when the game wasn't yet out for Wii U, I started a list which showed at which percents u-tilt > u-air were true combos, it had the maximum percentages at which it would be a combo (training mode consecutive hit counter) and also the minimum percentage at which it would kill (in 3DS Final Destination).
I believe u-tilt > u-air for kills is a very important thing to keep in mind, for there is a small window (from minimum percent needed to kill to maximum percent to link utilt > uair while still being a combo) where tink can be lethal, and end a stock really early.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bZsVZNCaDm9sFWpG7h44L0A-K1iEkBhFlwfyEP3Vxrg/edit?usp=sharing
Also, falling u-air > u-air I believe is a thing at certain percentages according to the training counter. I'll confirm later, whenever I get back to testing. Edit: Confirmed. Tested against Mario in training, it seems to work until a percentage where you have to double jump to reach Mario, afterwards it's not guaranteed and the opponent can and will most likely jump out of it (or airdodge)
can you follow up any of the throws with airdodge canceled throw? Like up throw -> full hop -> airdodge throw -> double jump aerial
While I haven't been able to register the bomb throw as a consecutive hit yet [not that this would be definitive], I can tell you that it is pretty close. Atm, at the very least what we have here is a reliable string at lower percents (medium percents as well for fast fallers and heavy weights) that lets us do e.g. u-throw to FH instant bomb throw to any aerial. Against a character like Fox who is a fast faller and is a relative light-weight, you have a pretty reliable kill string from a grab at around 70% (just delay the U-air after the DJ slightly so that it hits when Fox is more towards the peak of the bomb blast knockback) or even lower with rage.
I found zair > pp [perfect pivot] > u tilt can combo to pretty high %s (btw that can be useful to get an u tilt string at low %s), and then I remembered, u tilt combos into up air for a kill at around 90% - 100%. So... yes... zair - pp - u tilt - up air is a true combo if performed correctly (i haven't tested on real people yet, just training mode so i don't know about how DI would affect it, other than that, it registers as a 3 hit true combo, from zair to up air). This looks like it could be very useful because zair is relatively easy to connect, it isn't exactly a dedede f smash, and this is a combo of around 95% to death beginning with a zair. And before anyone asks, this was tested on mario, I imagine it'll work on a majority of the cast, only failing on a few such as jiggz.
If anyone else is able to test for DI and maybe some other characters then I'd really appreciate it.
Edit: Just tested on jiggz, kills at 60/70% but no combo, zair - u tilt registers though
Utilt to uair kill is very common knowledge. Btw i wouldnt encourage people to try that zair utilt combo anyway. Its fully possible to pull off but Zair to pp utilt will only connect at high percent if theres no di and you hit the zair up his face. Been using these kind of comboes for many months.
Lets not discuss this here. Also remember its "advanced" tech thread.
Analysing Projectile Properties and In Game Strategies with them
Lest we forget. http://smashboards.com/threads/anal...rties-and-in-game-stategies-with-them.208562/
Any miscellaneous projectile stuff that doesn't quite need it's own section will go in here.
With toon link if you catch a boomerang while running you can instantly run in the other direction by flicking the control stick in the opposite direction of which you are running. Is this useful at all?
I might just make a general AT concerning the lag that can be avoided by catching the boomerang. In smash 4 the amount of time spent catching the boomerang is significantly less than it was in Brawl. In Brawl the idea was always to avoid the catching animation pretty much at all costs. There were some known ways that catching it could benefit you, such as cancelling the extreme landing lag of Dair, but beyond that, catching the boomerang was a hindrance.
Now however, we may want to re-think this.
Catching the boomerang takes only 9 frames in smash 4 (this is so for both the custom boomerangs as well), meaning that if timed/positioned right you can cut out lag from many other things.
Dair has 40 frames of landing lag, but we already knew that would be clearly beneficial.
Fair has 17 frames of landing lag, so catching the boomerang at the perfect time as you land can almost half your lag.
Uair has 21 frames of landing lag.
Bair has 22 frames of landing lag.
Nair has 12 frames of landing lag, so while technically you could shave off 3 frames, I don't think it's worth trying in practice.
Zair only has 8 frames of landing lag.
Airdodge has 21 frames of landing lag. This means that if you airdodge into the ground, airdodge then Zair, or airdodge then Zair while holding a bomb, you can cut out over half the landing lag if you catch the boomerang upon landing.
As for catching the boomerang while running to allow you to dash back in the opposite direction, if this is what you want to do, then the only alternatives out of a run are to do a dash turn or to dash back after a skid. A dash turn takes around 24 frames to really get going in the other direction while dashing back after a skid takes 19 frames, so there's a definite improvement there too if speed is what you're after. It would be better if this was thought of more generally though, so instead of just being a way to run back in the other direction, it should be thought of as the fastest way to return to neutral (with all options available including dash) out of a Run. You can of course do certain actions directly out of a Run however so catching the boomerang out of a Run will not be the fastest way to do everything out of a Run, just some things.
As for actually applying any of this, at this stage I think that the fast boomerang may actually be the way to go simply due to the fact that it always follows a direct path back in the direction it originally came from, and because of the fact that it will always require the same timing because the boomerang will always go forwards the same distance even if it hits, and because it's so fast meaning there's more chance of it being caught immediately after landing.
Actually this is pretty cool.
With the fast boomerang you can do stuff like smash throw forwards, immediate SH aerial (e.g. Fair) FF if necessary and you immediately catch the boomerang upon landing, and there really is a notable difference in lag.
You can also throw the boomerang forwards then run at it and do e.g. U-tilts/Jabs/F-smash forwards seemingly straight of a Run, which is pretty cool, and if you're using the fast boomerang it means you can always get in nice and close to the opponent for when you catch the boomerang.
Fast boomerang smash throw forwards to immediate backwards SH Airdodge to Zair let's us land with the 9 frames of boomerang catch lag, similar to our normal Zair landing lag, which bypasses the airdodge lag nonsense.
It's worth looking into imo.
Shovel the coal in the hype train, I found another arrow lock setup!
So basically, on bf you need them positioned between the middle of the stage and one of the lower platforms at around 100%. jcbt towards them, they can't jump before they hit the platform (until around 117%) and this can be very awkward to tech. The most likely case is: they try to jump away but can't and then miss the tech or they try to tech but fail. Assuming they miss the tech you can follow up with a short hop/full hop - uncharged arrow to lock them, follow that up with whatever you like, fully charged smash attack, up tilt - up air, rang - bomb - fair/up b, you can kinda just do your favourite, flashiest kill setup.
Edit: Alright, gonna start adding %s for all the chars now. Btw, this is all with neutral di and no rage, if you wanna see the %s with di/rage then do it yourself, I ain't doing that.
Mario: 101% - 118%
Luigi: 91% - 98%
Peach: 83% - 90%
Bowser: 111% - 120%
Yoshi: 96% - 102%
RosaLuma: 78% - 86%
I've read up on a good portion of what has been discussed so far and I thought I would share this bit of the arrow lock. It's fun using this against players who don't recover/tech out of it
Grabs and Throws
Toon isn't exactly known for his amazing grab/throw game, except of course that Back-throw is a kill throw. So other than killing with B-throw, what do we have, and how can we get grabs in the first place?
I see so much stuff in the Skype chat about how terrible Gay's throws are, but his throws are underrated imo. Sure none of them combo, but you can get some good stuff out of them with reads and mix-ups. Like after fthrowing you can chase after the opponent to see what they do, and if they don't jump away you can usually re-grab (especially at low %s where there's less time to react) depending on the character and what they do.
With dthrow you can limit the opponent's landing options by tossing a boomerang behind you after the throw (which can sometimes hit the opponent at low %s and give enough hitstun to re-grab), and if the opponent does a poor job landing you can regrab. You can also instead bait an airdodge by empty jumping at the opponent after the dthrow, leading the opponent open to get re-grabbed. If the opponent doesn't airdodge when you jump (if they're any good they would've learned not to airdodge from the first dthrow) you can instead hit them with an aerial.
Uthrow imo should be used more sparingly than fthrow and dthrow so the opponent isn't prepared for it, that way you can go for a uair and have it be more likely that the uair will actually connect.
So yeah, with proper mix-ups you can still get a lot out of Gay's throws. They're not that bad, people just need to be more creative with them.
Full hop fair/bair aerial catch zdrop fastfall grab.
Returning boomerangs are also good for getting grabs.
Shield-Stun Stuff
Ok, this needs to be discussed in more detail:I should clarify something first up. I looked at the above in more detail and in order to replicate what it says exactly in the space of a SH there is only a 1 frame window to throw the bomb down (keep reading till the next block of text though). To explain, if you throw the bomb down so it starts on frame 15 of your SH, the first hit of Nair won't lock the opponent in their shield as it will hit 1 frame too late (essentially giving them two options; get hit by the first hit of Nair, or shield it). If you throw the bomb down so that it starts on frame 16 of your SH, everything is absolutely perfect; this is the sweet-spot where you get the bomb to Nair lock out of a SH and you get the second hit of Nair being used on the last frame of your air time so that it gets maximum frame advantage. If you throw the bomb down so that the throw starts on frame 17 of the SH, the second hit of Nair won't come out in time.The bomb to double Nair does 2/3 shield damage, so if the opponent's shield is lowish, you can run up, SH bomb down throw, continue to drift into them and buffer a Nair, and if they shield the bomb, they will be forced against their will to shield the first hit of Nair, at which point they will have two options and two options only: either get hit by the second hit of Nair (and leave with their shield even further depleted), or get their shield broken. Sickness.
In other words, as crazy as this is, it will require frame precision to use.
Arguably there is in fact a 3 frame window to throw the bomb down. When you think about it, the rules haven't changed if you throw the bomb down one or two frames earlier (i.e. frame 14 or 15). The opponent can choose to either get hit by the first or second hit of Nair or get their shield broken. No other option is available to them once the bomb hits their partially depleted shield. So I guess I'm ok with that. We pull off stuff that requires 3 frame precision all the time without knowing it, like power-shielding for instance.
If you just want to definitely lock the opponent in their shield with the bomb to Nair, that's easy, just throw the bomb down at around the peak of the SH, no precision required. You won't get the second hit of Nair, but then maybe their shield was super low and you intended to break it, so that still works and is easy.
In the patch thread I alluded to the possibility of using a FH method if the SH method didn't work. The SH method works, I mean it could be easier, but it only covers approaches on the ground.
The FH method is not difficult, though I'm yet to find a good setup for it. Essentially you just throw the bomb down beside an opponent's shield (without fast falling) as you're coming down from, well anything really. It doesn't actually have to be a FH, it can be after you got hit way up in the air or something. You just want to start it low enough so that the first hit of Nair hits their shield, but not too low otherwise the second hit of Nair won't come out in time (or you'll get hit by the explosion).
With this method you can potentially have safe landings depending on the opponent's shield-health and where you are in the air in relation to them (because obviously you want to be able to throw the bomb just beside their shield and be able to drift right in on top of them so that you land behind their shield with the second hit of Nair to better ensure your safety in case the shield doesn't break).
To sum it all up, this literally means that Toon can threaten and beat partially depleted shields while holding a bomb. What kind of a topsy-turvey world are we living in?
Can JC throw into up smash lock them in shield if you JC throw so it hits the ground next to their shield? Maybe with the neutral throw since it doesn't go as far?
Yeah, the JC throw part is unnecessary and makes it so the bomb explosion gets in the way etc. If you just do a standard throw then dash after immediately and the bomb lands infront of a shield, then dash attack will hit their shield before they can drop it. U-smash is too slow though, as is everything else.
This could be useful if someone's shield is really low.
What now? Contribute of course!
You can add something on to a previous discussion ^ or you can create a new topic of conversation. So if you have anything to share, go for it! Note that there are some things that have been discussed in this thread that have not yet been given their own topic, so it wouldn't hurt to have a read through some of the more recent posts at least to get an idea of some potential future topics that you could contribute to.
If you don't have anything to contribute atm, then feedback about this thread is also nice to hear.
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