Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
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- 2,042
Hi everyone, we wanted to take some time out to describe the history of Ivysaur in past versions of Project M and expound on the decisions made during the development for 3.0.
Ivysaur has always had a bit of a rocky relationship with the players. In 2.5, the coverage of most of her moves left a lot to be desired, leading to a centralization around a handful of her safest ranged options, like F-Air and B-Air. This caused her to have a polarized matchup spread, with faster characters doing a number on her and slower characters getting demolished. 2.6(b) added speed and flexibility to many of her moves, but did little to balance the matchups she won in 2.5, making her a top tier threat but allowing her to dominate a large chunk of the cast. This had the side-effect of making her metagame very formulaic and intuitive to a fault, where there were few "bad" options at any given moment and little variation between players.
The aim of our 3.0 rendition of Ivysaur is to bring back the focus on thoughtful defense and zoning play from 2.5 while making those individual hits more rewarding for offense, rather than relying on overly-safe and intuitive combo strings. We also wanted to normalize her matchup chart; she has options to help her manage in her worst matchups and has been toned down to prevent her best matchups from being lopsided.
GREATER COMMITMENT, GREATER REWARD
Spacing as Ivysaur has never been a complicated affair up to this point. F-Air dominated in range, safety, and combo potential, making it the cornerstone of both offense and defense and making its risk/reward potential very skewed. In 3.0, the start-up has been increased to require more commitment, and the knockback angles are significantly lower than before, making it so that Ivysaur has to really move forward if she wants to capitalize on the hits of what is still a strong defensive option. That said, we also increased the base knockback on F-Air, allowing it to be a stronger option against crouch canceling despite the extra start-up (something that stuffed a fair amount of Ivysaur offense before), so it's not all bad there.
B-Air was notorious for being incredibly quick and safe, with the rate of attacks being incredibly difficult to get through. To remedy this, B-Air was reverted to 2.5 stats, so while it is noticeably slower, it regains its potential as a powerful KO and edgeguarding tool (it's probably the single most effective edgeguarding move in the game now), as well as being less susceptible to crouch canceling. Intelligent use of B-Air is encouraged more strongly than ever, and it helps to alleviate some of her previous lack of reliable KO options.
Many of her other moves have been tweaked to properly balance her moveset to flow in a way that encourages Ivysaur players to make use of her whole kit and increase a need for finesse more in line with the rest of the cast. F-Tilt has more cooldown and is much more vulnerable behind her, requiring good spacing to get the most out of it. D-Tilt's pop-up hit has a balance in range between the tiny 2.5 version and the large 2.6 version, encouraging combos without making them especially easy. U-Air's sourspot sends people at a more horizontal angle, D-Air has more endlag, and both moves have sweetspots closer to Ivysaur, but the sweetspots are stronger, making them more decisive finishers. Also of note are the changes to her throws; F-Throw was made more in line with B-Throw to make them both decent throws that must be followed up on with edgeguards in order to get a KO. The knockback and angles on U-Throw and D-Throw are changed to make for a true 50/50 with DI instead of letting U-Throw get a free follow-up. This should make follow-ups more read-based and about calculated risk.
SPECIALS
All of Ivysaur's special moves have seen some change in 3.0, encouraging a more nuanced use of them while still fitting in with her generally defensive playstyle.
Razor Leaf is a move that caused a great deal of ire; in the change from 2.5 to 2.6(b), It went from being a situational poking tool to being a Swiss Army Knife in utility; it was much safer, locked opponents down without trouble, and put a huge stop to the mobility options that Project M otherwise embraces. We decided it would be best to tone it down in 3.0 to make it a useful mix-up between the rest of Ivysaur's kit, rather than being the primary focus of approach and defense. The animation is significantly slower in order to make anticipated Razor Leaf attempts more vulnerable, and the hit rate is lower, allowing opponents to shield between crouch canceled hits, causing a guessing game that is less skewed toward Ivysaur's advantage. It decelerates at a noticeable rate, making it much more effective at a specific distance instead of just being a thick wall at every point, which is useful for harassment at this range. It should still have its place for approaching and general harassment, but effective placement requires much more thought and skilled use of B-Reversing and Wavebouncing instead of the fire-and-forget feeling that left a bad taste in people's mouths in 2.6b.
In 2.6(b), Synthesis had the peculiar property of being a pop-up hitbox that encouraged combos. We wanted it to be able to add a little extra "oomph" for creative players, but smart use of the landing cancel turned it into a catch-all for defensive safety and unnatural offensive strings. Reluctant to can the idea entirely, we thought about how we could make an unique interaction useful while having it look and act natural, and we eventually settled on turning the hitbox into a relatively weak windbox. While it can no longer be used for combos or combo breaking, it can throw off the landings and spacing of opponents, which adds to her juggle traps and can make the neutral position less intuitive for the opponent without taking away their maneuverability options. With the landing cancel still intact, the push can keep opponents in the air for longer than normal, allowing you to force and capitalize on opponents' missed L-Cancels, and it can push people around recovering opponents attempting to sweetspot the ledge, giving her a sneaky new edgeguarding option. The full potential of this move should be harder to realize, but we expect proper experimentation to really help with applying this interesting tool.
Seed Bomb used to work in tandem with Razor Leaf to create very frustrating walls, and the projectile's vertical range and speed made it so that it was easy to lose track of and most effective as a vertical combo ender. The projectile has been slowed down and doesn't go as high, making it easier for opponents to react to and for Ivysaur players to combo into it for extra damage, putting an emphasis on it as a situational zoning tool instead of projectile lockdown and vertical combo endings.
Vine Whip has been made more powerful to reward players more for landing this slow, linear attack and to make it more distinct from Solar Beam, but it is otherwise similar to the previous version. The tweaks to her combo game and a slight sweetspot size increase should make it a little more reliable.
Overall, we're excited to say that this Ivysaur is the least polarized and most thoughtful to date. With a greater need for finesse and proper spacing to get the most out of newly improved options, as well as changes to round out her moveset and give underused options more use, dedicated players should find that she is much more enjoyable to play, as and against, and that she is still a contender in the fast-paced world of Project M 3.0.
-PMBR
Ivysaur has always had a bit of a rocky relationship with the players. In 2.5, the coverage of most of her moves left a lot to be desired, leading to a centralization around a handful of her safest ranged options, like F-Air and B-Air. This caused her to have a polarized matchup spread, with faster characters doing a number on her and slower characters getting demolished. 2.6(b) added speed and flexibility to many of her moves, but did little to balance the matchups she won in 2.5, making her a top tier threat but allowing her to dominate a large chunk of the cast. This had the side-effect of making her metagame very formulaic and intuitive to a fault, where there were few "bad" options at any given moment and little variation between players.
The aim of our 3.0 rendition of Ivysaur is to bring back the focus on thoughtful defense and zoning play from 2.5 while making those individual hits more rewarding for offense, rather than relying on overly-safe and intuitive combo strings. We also wanted to normalize her matchup chart; she has options to help her manage in her worst matchups and has been toned down to prevent her best matchups from being lopsided.
GREATER COMMITMENT, GREATER REWARD
Spacing as Ivysaur has never been a complicated affair up to this point. F-Air dominated in range, safety, and combo potential, making it the cornerstone of both offense and defense and making its risk/reward potential very skewed. In 3.0, the start-up has been increased to require more commitment, and the knockback angles are significantly lower than before, making it so that Ivysaur has to really move forward if she wants to capitalize on the hits of what is still a strong defensive option. That said, we also increased the base knockback on F-Air, allowing it to be a stronger option against crouch canceling despite the extra start-up (something that stuffed a fair amount of Ivysaur offense before), so it's not all bad there.
B-Air was notorious for being incredibly quick and safe, with the rate of attacks being incredibly difficult to get through. To remedy this, B-Air was reverted to 2.5 stats, so while it is noticeably slower, it regains its potential as a powerful KO and edgeguarding tool (it's probably the single most effective edgeguarding move in the game now), as well as being less susceptible to crouch canceling. Intelligent use of B-Air is encouraged more strongly than ever, and it helps to alleviate some of her previous lack of reliable KO options.
Many of her other moves have been tweaked to properly balance her moveset to flow in a way that encourages Ivysaur players to make use of her whole kit and increase a need for finesse more in line with the rest of the cast. F-Tilt has more cooldown and is much more vulnerable behind her, requiring good spacing to get the most out of it. D-Tilt's pop-up hit has a balance in range between the tiny 2.5 version and the large 2.6 version, encouraging combos without making them especially easy. U-Air's sourspot sends people at a more horizontal angle, D-Air has more endlag, and both moves have sweetspots closer to Ivysaur, but the sweetspots are stronger, making them more decisive finishers. Also of note are the changes to her throws; F-Throw was made more in line with B-Throw to make them both decent throws that must be followed up on with edgeguards in order to get a KO. The knockback and angles on U-Throw and D-Throw are changed to make for a true 50/50 with DI instead of letting U-Throw get a free follow-up. This should make follow-ups more read-based and about calculated risk.
SPECIALS
All of Ivysaur's special moves have seen some change in 3.0, encouraging a more nuanced use of them while still fitting in with her generally defensive playstyle.
Razor Leaf is a move that caused a great deal of ire; in the change from 2.5 to 2.6(b), It went from being a situational poking tool to being a Swiss Army Knife in utility; it was much safer, locked opponents down without trouble, and put a huge stop to the mobility options that Project M otherwise embraces. We decided it would be best to tone it down in 3.0 to make it a useful mix-up between the rest of Ivysaur's kit, rather than being the primary focus of approach and defense. The animation is significantly slower in order to make anticipated Razor Leaf attempts more vulnerable, and the hit rate is lower, allowing opponents to shield between crouch canceled hits, causing a guessing game that is less skewed toward Ivysaur's advantage. It decelerates at a noticeable rate, making it much more effective at a specific distance instead of just being a thick wall at every point, which is useful for harassment at this range. It should still have its place for approaching and general harassment, but effective placement requires much more thought and skilled use of B-Reversing and Wavebouncing instead of the fire-and-forget feeling that left a bad taste in people's mouths in 2.6b.
In 2.6(b), Synthesis had the peculiar property of being a pop-up hitbox that encouraged combos. We wanted it to be able to add a little extra "oomph" for creative players, but smart use of the landing cancel turned it into a catch-all for defensive safety and unnatural offensive strings. Reluctant to can the idea entirely, we thought about how we could make an unique interaction useful while having it look and act natural, and we eventually settled on turning the hitbox into a relatively weak windbox. While it can no longer be used for combos or combo breaking, it can throw off the landings and spacing of opponents, which adds to her juggle traps and can make the neutral position less intuitive for the opponent without taking away their maneuverability options. With the landing cancel still intact, the push can keep opponents in the air for longer than normal, allowing you to force and capitalize on opponents' missed L-Cancels, and it can push people around recovering opponents attempting to sweetspot the ledge, giving her a sneaky new edgeguarding option. The full potential of this move should be harder to realize, but we expect proper experimentation to really help with applying this interesting tool.
Seed Bomb used to work in tandem with Razor Leaf to create very frustrating walls, and the projectile's vertical range and speed made it so that it was easy to lose track of and most effective as a vertical combo ender. The projectile has been slowed down and doesn't go as high, making it easier for opponents to react to and for Ivysaur players to combo into it for extra damage, putting an emphasis on it as a situational zoning tool instead of projectile lockdown and vertical combo endings.
Vine Whip has been made more powerful to reward players more for landing this slow, linear attack and to make it more distinct from Solar Beam, but it is otherwise similar to the previous version. The tweaks to her combo game and a slight sweetspot size increase should make it a little more reliable.
Overall, we're excited to say that this Ivysaur is the least polarized and most thoughtful to date. With a greater need for finesse and proper spacing to get the most out of newly improved options, as well as changes to round out her moveset and give underused options more use, dedicated players should find that she is much more enjoyable to play, as and against, and that she is still a contender in the fast-paced world of Project M 3.0.
-PMBR
)). A fair rivaling Ganon's in power helps a lot. The new synthesis can lead to really quick edgeguards, in situations where you don't have the time to space a bair properly. Her combo game has changed, but isn't necessarily that much worse due to new nair and proper grab mixups (it's ridiculous to think that we should be able to combo as well as we used to after a day or two). The new seed bomb can actually be used for spacing. When people told me to use earlier versions of seed bombs for horizontal spacing, I thought they were crazy (still do, Razor Leaf was ALWAYS a better option). The spacing game is weaker now, but at the same time much more interesting. Bair, as previously mentioned, is not necessarily worse either. It's a reliable KO move at higher percents, and while I enjoyed bairing my opponents seven times every single edgeguard, the new design does make edgeguarding easier and less soul-crushing for your opponent.
