True Skills being held back?

[TheZhuKeeper]

Brawl lacks the fine line between how good a character is and a player's skill.

I agree with this statement.

 

[Bartolon]

I thought for a really long time the same thing as you.
"I want to prove I can place high with one character" (no secondary).
(Thats Ness ;D)

Ok I main Ness. An underrated and underused character.
After a long time playing ness alone. I played someone who's very good with a character.
And who's just unbeatable for me as Ness.
Mr.R he mains Marth, And that matchup sucks *** srsly.
I now know I need a 2ndary. To support my characters weakness.

I don't know the matchups for peach, and if one is as horrible as "marth vs ness"
But its not bad to have a 2ndary for some characters.

 

[BlackWaltzX]

Play peach or you are dumb.

 

[The Sauce Boss]

I think that rather than holding you back, Peach enhances your performance. I don't think you'd even be a formidable opponent if you mained Snake or MK, just because they were good. Your passion for doing well with Peach far outweighs the passion I have to do well with Marth, which is why you outplaced me. Picking MK would make some MUs easier, but that stuff really doesn't matter at our level of play, and you'll just get ***** if your drive isn't high enough.

Peach brings out the best in you, and she'll take you the farthest.

tl;dr: Peach is hot.

This. If you are that passionate about a character I doubt you would be better with metaknight or snake.

 

[~RiKu~]

tl;dr: Peach is hot.

Tis true. That's y I chose to play Peach.

 

[CRASHiC]

Does he even play Fox or Ganon? lol

If indeed Gimpyfish practiced Bowser, Fox, and Ganon (relatively) evenly, and his Bowser > his Fox and Ganon, then he would be an exception to the rule.

How can this be said for sure though?
Ganon's play style in very, very close to Bowser's, and clearly Gimpyfish has proven he has the tech skill needed to play top level.
Play style has a lot to do with how well you work with a character. I learned this the hard way with Guilty Gear.

 

[TwentyTwo]

You know, peach is in other games, like mario party or something. Just saying.

Anyways, whenever I lost to a DDD a few months ago, I always considered using Falco as a secondary because I was pretty good with him, but he just didn't feel fun. I'm just lucky my main that I have fun with is high tier, and playing that character gives me drive to do better. I personally think if you play with purpose, whatever it is, you play your best. And your purpose, is peach.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think that rather than holding you back, Peach enhances your performance. I don't think you'd even be a formidable opponent if you mained Snake or MK, just because they were good. Your passion for doing well with Peach far outweighs the passion I have to do well with Marth, which is why you outplaced me. Picking MK would make some MUs easier, but that stuff really doesn't matter at our level of play, and you'll just get ***** if your drive isn't high enough.

Peach brings out the best in you, and she'll take you the farthest.

tl;dr: Peach is hot.

This seems so right. I would not use meta though. I find him so boring. I was using him and SNES and I was 2-3 stocking people. I was just boring as hell. I used Snake And Marth alot that day and they are fun. But Peach is more fun them those 2.

And Peach does for me to think harder. Peach is a creative character with lots that she can do. So against hard match ups I have to think and do lots of stuff, sometimes it kinda hurts my head.. So many tools, tricks, styles of play, etc. just so much. So she does test me to the limits I think a high tier could never test me. If I was to win a tournament I would never be with a high tier. It be with Peach. It's also fun to show the world just how good this character is and how she can do. When when I do, that makes my determination stronger, and makes me play harder. But I like this post. Got me thinking.

So by asking us these questions you want a 3rd party answer right? Thats a good way to confirm whether or not your doing the right thing

welp, dont stop asking questions then. No question is too dumb or stupid. Even if its not about smash but yourself. Learn from mistakes, like you already said, and dont let little things hold you back-- never ever

I honestly think, one thing people tend to forget is the power of love. Do you love your main alot? Not just speaking to the op here, but to others reading this post.

I could sit here and type up rivers apon rivers of text on just how much i love DDD. Not for his smash aspects/meta game, but of mainly how much i love him as a character. Just to hold my little penguin in my arms, to cuddle his face and tell him how much i love him would bring so much joy to me

I also think that, having alittle bit of love for the other characters in brawl goes along way. Loving them for who they are and their strengths. I know people that main DK/Bowser/Lucario/Wolf really dislike DDD, i can understand the match ups are gay. But dont hate DDD's character for it. Having played DK/Lucario/Wolf myself, i know just how fun they can be.

I like using Peach and she is my favorite nintendo character. Even with her nerfs and all. I just work with what I got as hard as I can. All I can say. Peach does tend to annoy me sometimes cause of the crap people get away with. Like her not killing well. But I get over it.

Brawl lacks the fine line between how good a character is and a player's skill.

Hmm? Explain this.

I thought for a really long time the same thing as you.
"I want to prove I can place high with one character" (no secondary).
(Thats Ness ;D)

Ok I main Ness. An underrated and underused character.
After a long time playing ness alone. I played someone who's very good with a character.
And who's just unbeatable for me as Ness.
Mr.R he mains Marth, And that matchup sucks *** srsly.
I now know I need a 2ndary. To support my characters weakness.

I don't know the matchups for peach, and if one is as horrible as "marth vs ness"
But its not bad to have a 2ndary for some characters.

Yea. But I could never have a secondary. would not feel right. And Peach has Match ups that are just hell as well. But I deal with them.

Play peach or you are dumb.

Ha ha ha. Best post I seen in this thread.

 

[Veelhelm]

Deleted the content.

-Chaco

 

[Llumys]

@ Zhu

ocool a famos person agres wif me


@ Dark.Pch

Brawl's too strongly based around match-ups and stages to actually mean anything. An incredibly skilled player who uses Peach will still lose a Meta Knight with half a brain. It doesn't get any deeper than that.

 

[rob.bot64]

For those that don't know me, I'm a Peach main that goes all Peach in tournaments. I am known as one of the top Peach players in the country now. People call me crazy for it but I don't play this game for money (to me it is not worth it, I really don't like brawl). I play it cause Peach is my favorite nintendo character. I did it in melee for 2 years but failed at that. Brawl though, it is a different story.

I was at an East Coast regional this past weekend (S.N.E.S, I got 13th out of 141) I was playing M2K in brackets and was doing somewhat ok till I SD both matches once. After I fought M2K, JesiahTG (I think that is how you spell it) Came to me and ask "dude why don't you have secondary or use better characters, you would go so far if you do this well as Peach". My answer was "I don't play this game for top tier characters or any of that stuff. Only reason I touch brawl is because Peach is in it. If she was not in brawl I not touch this game. I seriously don't like it" I play to show what this character can really do she is underratted and I make it my job to fix that and improve her meta game. Thats my goal and why I am in this community.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that that is out the way, the question is, is true skills being held back when I could do better in tournaments cause I use Peach, desipte how good I do with her in tournies and get money? Or is it still shown through out Peach. The difference is, I just don't have an easier shot than if I was playing a high tier. I was thinking about this on the bus ride back to N.Y. "what if I mained Marth, Snake or Falco?" I like these characters so if I was not a Peach fan or main, I would use one of these guys. Is hidden talent in a player held back and not really shown? am I able to show this in Peach?

I can't seem to come to an answer on this matter. When Ally found out what I did, he was really shocked and gave me a congrats. That felt good. If I was able to do this with Peach, imagine If I had use Snake, Falco or Marth from the beginning. Am I holding myself back to be a really great player? Do you people thinking going all Peach and trying to win tournies with her is just stupid as hell? Are my skills being wasted on a character that I should not be using to get money and win a tourny? Is this seriously a waste of time?

Buy the way, w/e the answers are, I am not gonna stop. I'll still go all Peach I don't care about the player, character or how gay they play. I don't have time to worry about this and have fear in me. I have to worry about playing and using all that I know about this character, and win. Even against someone like M2K. I was not scared of him at all and was just ready to win. But yea, I wanna know what people think.

your a ******, just do what you want

 

[Llumys]

your a ******, just do what you want

You're a ******. Just do what you want.*

 

[Dark.Pch]

@ Zhu

ocool a famos person agres wif me


@ Dark.Pch

Brawl's too strongly based around match-ups and stages to actually mean anything. An incredibly skilled player who uses Peach will still lose a Meta Knight with half a brain. It doesn't get any deeper than that.

It has been quite some time since I lost to a meta below pro level. So I don't believe that. I know that match up.

 

[Llumys]

It has been quite some time since I lost to a meta below pro level. So I don't believe that. I know that match up.

Don't you listen? I said it doesn't get any deeper than that.

You sir, are DUMB. ):<

 

[Dark.Pch]

I made a statement to what you said. I know what you are talking about

*flicks head*

Pay attention

 

[Llumys]

I made a statement to what you said. I know what you are talking about

*flicks head*

Pay attention

no U

*shakes fist*

But yeah. I mentioned the Meta Knight having to have "half a brain".

 

[Kewkky]

You can't deny that you want the [$$$], EVERYONE tried to deny it... You know you want lots of green rectangles... You could buy that life-sized Peach doll that I just imagined you've always wanted... But without [$$$], it won't be possible... Hohoho...



I'm the same with Kirby and ZSS! Especially with Kirby... I mostly go Kirby in tourneys, but people have told me that my ZSS is better. Sadly, I feel that I do better with Kirby than with ZSS, so that's my decision.

And yes, I think Peach can be competitive... We have Excel_Zero in PR, so I've seen what top level peaches can do, heheheh..... WIN SOME GOOD [$$$]!

 

[Dark.Pch]

For all that money, I have a job. Only think I care about right now in tournies is placing top ten as Peach

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I like using Peach and she is my favorite nintendo character. Even with her nerfs and all. I just work with what I got as hard as I can. All I can say. Peach does tend to annoy me sometimes cause of the crap people get away with. Like her not killing well. But I get over it.

I have to deal with getting juggled, combo'ed and chain grabbed; thats D3's weight for you, a double edged sword. Annoying? yes. But then i remember his weight still works wonders at higher % when he'll still be just as harder to kill[as long as im not ********]

Dont let others create doubt for you op. Doubt can weaken your fighting spirit. So what if you dont have a secondary? Why should anyone else care? I choose my secondaries because they're fun. And i got alot of love to give.

 

[Meru.]

No, because Peach is high tier.

I just felt to say that. Even if it isn't completely true.

Spoiler

For now

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

How can this be said for sure though?
Ganon's play style in very, very close to Bowser's, and clearly Gimpyfish has proven he has the tech skill needed to play top level.
Play style has a lot to do with how well you work with a character. I learned this the hard way with Guilty Gear.

Well, that's what I used to think (it's also what I want to think), but from personal experience it's simply romanticism.
I main a low tier (Link), and I normally go about even with a friend of mine (he wins a bit more than I do though), but when I picked up MK (I never played seriously as him before) I 2 stock him. With a bit of practice, I 3 stock him - easily. Same with Snake (Though I don't 3 stock him as Snake).
In general, I do a lot better as the higher tiers with lesser practice (The only exception thus far is Ice Climbers, I never bothered to learn their CG). It's ridiculous. I'd like to think my playstyle fits Link's, since he's the most fun and most natural for me, but I just do so much worse as him. xD

 

[CRASHiC]

Well, that's what I used to think (it's also what I want to think), but from personal experience it's simply romanticism.
I main a low tier (Link), and I normally go about even with a friend of mine (he wins a bit more than I do though), but when I picked up MK (I never played seriously as him before) I 2 stock him. With a bit of practice, I 3 stock him - easily. Same with Snake (Though I don't 3 stock him as Snake).
In general, I do a lot better as the higher tiers with lesser practice (The only exception thus far is Ice Climbers, I never bothered to learn their CG). It's ridiculous. I'd like to think my playstyle fits Link's, since he's the most fun and most natural for me, but I just do so much worse as him. xD

What about Mango?
Mango mains Jiggly, and admits that Jiggly is only high tier, yet clearly his Jiggly outperforms his Falco, a top tier character with far better matchups?

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

What about Mango?
Mango mains Jiggly, and admits that Jiggly is only high tier, yet clearly his Jiggly outperforms his Falco, a top tier character with far better matchups?

Like I said, I don't know anymore. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. Either way, it doesn't really matter much to me.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

What about Mango?
Mango mains Jiggly, and admits that Jiggly is only high tier, yet clearly his Jiggly outperforms his Falco, a top tier character with far better matchups?

Don't compare melee to brawl.

Really.

 

[Kewkky]

Don't compare melee to brawl.

Really.

Don't come in here and start saying that. What's the big deal about comparing both games? It makes you look like a troll, replying just to say that. Really.

And even if you say no, Dark.Pch, and even if you really mean to say no... I still believe you're in it for fame and [$$$]... At least a little bit.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

The big deal is that just because they have the same name and characters people forget that they're totally different games.

I might look like a troll but it's true anyway, you can't compare melee and brawl on that subject.

 

[orange/xd]

I think you're not really being held back. You've came so far with Peach and gotten so experienced with her, dropping her for a high tier would mean you have to have to learn all that character's matchups, playstyle, mindgames, techniques, etc. I guess eventually, that character might be better than you're Peach is, but still...

I say keep playing Peach

 

[KillerJawz]

Keep playing peach. You can play as marth and never be as good as peach because you enjoy her so much, with me, If i enjoy a character, ill play better, if i hate them, i do worse, its a strange fact for me, so it may be the same for you aswell o.o

 

['V']

Skill is skill, no matter what character you use. Bad character matchups and tiers do suck though.

 

[ssmashbropro]

i think KillerJawz got it right if u love that char that much ull do best with them. not always (like mentioned below), but i would say if u love them THAT much then ull do best with her.

I main a low tier (Link), and I normally go about even with a friend of mine (he wins a bit more than I do though), but when I picked up MK (I never played seriously as him before) I 2 stock him. With a bit of practice, I 3 stock him - easily. Same with Snake (Though I don't 3 stock him as Snake).

 

[∫unk]

this belongs in the peach boards where drama is welcomed

 

[Cirno]

"I actually do have a goal. 2 of them really. One of them is to improve her metagame and have her rise in the competitive world of brawl. The other is to take Peach as far outside the minds people think she can go in tournaments. And one day win a big tourny. People say she can't do it alone. And I want to prove them wrong. If anything, these 2 goals right here should make me a better player. Cause I need to be one to make thishappen.
"

Ahh~, then I'm wishing you luck and some type of enjoyment.
Though, from what I can tell you already knew the answer to your question before you posted.
;D

 

[Zolios]

I think Dark Pch just wanted everyone to tell him he was good. And for some wierd reason, everyone is. >_>

Ahem. In brawl, matchups and character priority are more important in brawl. If you stick with one character forever, you will win with that character, unless someone is doing the same. You not winning only means your opponent is genuinely better.

To counter this, find every possible advantage over the opponent and abuse it well. Mindgames are the most important component in this section.

 

[thanortinzak]

Since you put a lot of time into peach, stick with her as your main.
However, I advise that you pick up a new character to cover your weaknesses.

 

[Hive]

Naturally, the character you play has a lot to do with how well a person is successful at brawl (obviously player skill matters as well).... I think a lot more than people generally give credit for, but that's just how the game is. Using someone at a higher tier than peach would have probably have almost definitely made you more successful or at least been easier to reach the same success, although it might not have been as fun for you. Using different characters has some pretty obvious effect on your ability to show skill. To illustrate this:

if you look at these PRs (top 10) I dragged up recently and look at character distribution you get this for how many people used them in some way out of 120 people and 169 character representations you can get a vague idea of how difficult it is to be successful with that character:

Very Easy

MK 33
Snake 23

Relatively Easy

Marth 15
Wario 10
Diddy 10
Olimar 7
DDD 7

Moderate

GW 6
ICs 6
Falco 5
Toon Link 5
Kirby 5
DK 5

Moderate Hard

Pikachu 4
ZSS 4
ROB 4

Hard

Sonic 3
Luigi 3
Fox 3
Wolf 2
PT 2
Lucario 2
Ness 1
Peach 1

Representation only with Higher Backups

Jigglypuff 1
Mario 1
Ike 1

No Current Representation
Pit 0
Zelda 0
Bowser 0
Sheik 0
Yoshi 0
Link 0
Captain Falcon 0
Ganondorf 0
Lucas 0
Samus 0

120 people 169 different character representations


Peach is just naturally a harder character to do well with. (of course their are different variables there aren't accounted for in the data like how many people use each char/regional differences/etc... , but it still gets the point across).








As of August 16th/2009


Florida

1 Seibrik mk/ddd
2 C018 ddd
3 NickRiddle ZSS
4 Hrnut Snake/MK/Marth
5 Afrothunder Snake/wario
6 Chaz Marth/MK
7 Esam Pikachu
8 Hungrybox DDD/Jigglypuff
9 GDX Diddy/GW
10 Mero MK

Ohio

1Overswarm MK/ROB
2 Quivo Toon Link
3 AlphaZealot Diddy
4 Shugo Sonic
5 YBM Kirby
6 Nope Snake
7 Infern Angelis Snake
8 Pops Wario
9 Capem MK
10 Champ Falco

North Carolina

1 Sushi Man MK
2 Dr Peepee Marth
3 Stingers ROB/MK
4 NC-Echo Olimar
5 Ragnarok DK
6 Lord Karn Snake/MK/ROB/Wario
7 Shady Penguin Snake
8 Duo Fox
9 Mitsurugi MK/Wolf
10 Keith Snake

New York

1 Anti Snake
2 Shadow MK
3 Snakee ZSS
4 Ninjalink ?
5 Dabuz Olimar
6 Jash Toon LInk
7 MikeG GW
8 Mintyflesh Marth
9 Blackwaltz Olimar
10 Wes Sonic


MD/VA

1 Meep ICs
2 Omni MK
3 ChuDat Kirby
4 Neo Marth
5 Candy Snake
6 PyronicStar Olimar
7 Boss Luigi
8 Chillindude Snake
9 Forte MK
10 G-Reg Snake

Socal

1 Tyrant MK
2 Fiction Wario
3 MikeHaze Marth
4 DSF MK
5 Dehf Falco
6 Havok MK
7 Leepuff GW
8 TKD MK
9 BarDull Marth
10 RichBrown Olimar

Alabama

1 TheReflexWonder PT/Wario
2 Will MK/DK
3 George Kirby
4 DanGR Olimar/?
5 Elev8 DDD/Diddy
6 Moogle Fox/GW
7 Nice1 Snake
8 Munkus Beaver MK
9 TheONEjanitor Snake
10 Cam Pikachu

Texas

1. Dojo (Metaknight)
2. Razer (Snake)
3. Gnes (Diddy)
4. Infinity (Kirby/MK)
5. Roy_R (Marth)
6. DMG (Wario/Diddy)
7. Zac (Game&Watch)
8. Light (Metaknight)
9. Hylian (Game&Watch/Ice Climbers)
10. PhantomX (Wario)

Norcal

1 Zex Marth
2 Erow Snake/ZSS
3 Sean MK
4 Meep Snake/MK/Wario
5 F0cus Snake
6 REDJ Marth/Diddy
7 The Nanerz Diddy
8 Choice Wolf/Pikachu
9 C@tnip MK
10 Sal Snake

New Jersey

1. ADHD (Diddy Kong)
2. Atomsk (Dedede, Ice Climbers, Meta Knight, Luigi)
3. ksizzle (Meta Knight, Ice Climbers, Lucario)
4. dmbrandon (Meta Knight)
5. Inui (Meta Knight, Snake, Ike)
6. Zucco (Lucario)
7. Keitaro (Falco, Snake, Pokemon Trainer)
8. Kai (Sonic, Diddy Kong)
9. Eazy (Marth, Meta Knight)
10. Izumi (Meta Knight, Toon Link)

Washington

1 Chip Toon Link
2 Jem MK
3 Weruop Olimar
4 Praxis Peach
5 Bladewise Marth
6 Uchiha Marth/Fox
7 Zeionut Snake
8 Jamnt0ise ROB/Wario/Snake/MK/DDD
9 Felix Diddy/ICs
10 Nerd Falco/Marth

Vegas

1 SK92 Falco/DK
2 FOW Ness/ICs
3 LeoFTW DDD/Wario
4 Z Pikachu
5 Xero Olimar
6 Mi. Snake
7 Ninewind DK/Marth
8 Kokaloo ZSS/Luigi
9 Zro Kirby/DK
10 JWN3d Mario/Toon Link

 

[PK-ow!]

I'ma tell you something, Dark Pch.
I came to a realization this week. It was distressing at first, but I am sobered in its Truth, and I am invigorated by it now:

My main, Ganondorf, was holding me back.

(and no; this is going to be about a way in which that's not trivially true >.>)


While I endure to believe that he will reward me in the greatest way of value to me, personally, when I am able to read and bait like a pro, right now, I can't do those things. And Ganon is not helping me learn them.

You might think that bottlenecking yourself into one route to victory could focus your vision, and maybe that's true for some values of the width, but at least in Ganon's case, I cannot improve by it. I am acquiring other characters - flawed characters still (and characters named Peach ) - but those with options; and I have felt such a surge of awareness that I could not reject the conclusion I gave at the start of this.


For Peach, I don't know how it is, but if there's something about her that has, just to be competent, had to devour so much of your cognition and attention while playing, just to look alright and lose with something like parity, then I urge you to try other things, as I am now.

You don't have to be giving up Peach. Not for now or ever. When I am a better player, I will return to the King of Shadows, and hope he sees fit to main my controller. Whatever inspiration works for you, use that.



@Hive: Wow. I have to talk to Zex.

And Vegas is clearly an anomaly. Thems' all too sexy to have MKs in the PR.

 

[altairian]

Well, that's what I used to think (it's also what I want to think), but from personal experience it's simply romanticism.
I main a low tier (Link), and I normally go about even with a friend of mine (he wins a bit more than I do though), but when I picked up MK (I never played seriously as him before) I 2 stock him. With a bit of practice, I 3 stock him - easily. Same with Snake (Though I don't 3 stock him as Snake).
In general, I do a lot better as the higher tiers with lesser practice (The only exception thus far is Ice Climbers, I never bothered to learn their CG). It's ridiculous. I'd like to think my playstyle fits Link's, since he's the most fun and most natural for me, but I just do so much worse as him. xD

You're ignoring a pretty important factor in how well you do against your friend, and that's YOUR FRIEND. He knows the Link matchup, and he knows how you play Link. He doesn't know how you're going to be playing MK/Snake (at first at least), and I'm willing to bet he doesn't know the matchup nearly as well as he knows the Link matchup. I'm assuming that he's still playing the same character(s) against you right? That gives you a pretty big advantage.

I'm not arguing that MK/Snake aren't easier to win with, of course they are, that's why they're top tier, but such a huge disparity in your performance against one person with Link vs with MK has a lot more factors than just "I do better cause I'm playing MK"

To the OP: I've found that practicing other characters can often improve my play with my main. Whether or not Peach is "holding you back" is irrelevant, your goals are your own. If your goal is to win national tourneys then you should probably pick a top 3 character, otherwise just do what's fun/motivates you.

 

[Rigor Mortis]

Peach is extremely underated, my secondary is mario and when i loose with him im like yeah time for my MAIN. THey lol like crazy and make tons of jokes.

But they didnt laugh when they got 3 stocked every time they faced my peach.

 

[CRASHiC]

Don't compare melee to brawl.

Really.

No matter how much tech skill a game has, it always comes down to Yomi. Nothing surpasses Yomi.

 

[Praxis]

No matter how much tech skill a game has, it always comes down to Yomi. Nothing surpasses Yomi.

No.

Appraisal skill trumps Yomi; ESPECIALLY in Brawl.

Even David Sirlin concluded on Yomi as the #2 most important quality. And Brawl is a game of appraisal over Yomi. Unlike Melee, where a "Yomi moment" results in a series of hits, a Yomi moment in Brawl results in only one, and often players simply have too many options to force a true rock-paper-scissors situation because of the depth of options in the game.

Rather, Brawl plays almost like an RTS; option tracking, option reduction, option picking, making constant safe choices until you can reduce your opponent's options down to none and hit them or few and force a rock-paper-scissors Yomi game between their remaining few; these things are more important than the Yomi, though Yomi does come in to play.

The character in Brawl that can truly play off of setups and thus benefits the most from Yomi guessing games is Metaknight. Perhaps that is why he is so popular among Melee players (Mew2King often says he's the only character he has fun with). Players like Fiction and Ally, meanwhile, favors appraisal and option control over Yomi.