Meta Two Sides of the Same Coin - Pit/ Dark Pit Meta Game Discussion

[Clemente]

Tips for fighting Sonic? Just beat one by a hair, but I don't know how to deal with repeated spin attacks.

Also, I always hear about people being able to "punish" roll spammers, but you can easily roll through both our F-smash and Down smash with continuous rolls. I don't know how I can punish it.

 

[SwoodGrommet]

Tips for fighting Sonic? Just beat one by a hair, but I don't know how to deal with repeated spin attacks.

Also, I always hear about people being able to "punish" roll spammers, but you can easily roll through both our F-smash and Down smash with continuous rolls. I don't know how I can punish it.

I'm not sure if I can give much advice regarding Sonic match ups. I find that when I'm fighting him, I'm forced to play very defensively, resulting in a slow, boring match. I usually just shield through his spin attacks; but I find that sometimes my attacks connect when he's spindashing and sometimes they don't. I haven't fought many of them, so I'm kind of unclear about when it's safe to attack and when he'll just barrel straight through me.

Regarding roll punishments, I find that our Upperdash actually works pretty well. Even if it doesn't connect, you'll generally have time to get over the ending lag before they can get to you. I think it's best to time the Upperdash to hit when they're near the end of their roll animation. Try and get creative with your aerials too, maybe jump over them as they roll towards you, and hit them with a well timed D-Air. But yep, basically the SideB is your best bet to punish rolls, in my opinion. Also, it might be a good idea to heckle roll spammers with your light arrows; I find that it tends to aggravate them and they just run/jump towards you instead of rolling.

 

[Clemente]

You're right about side-B for punishing rolls. The only thing is, I'm so scared to use it. It's super punishable if blocked and I also just don't understand how it works. It's like sometimes it has super armor, and sometimes it doesn't. I've almost stopped using it entirely to be honest, besides sometimes for a K.O.

 

[SwoodGrommet]

You're right about side-B for punishing rolls. The only thing is, I'm so scared to use it. It's super punishable if blocked and I also just don't understand how it works. It's like sometimes it has super armor, and sometimes it doesn't. I've almost stopped using it entirely to be honest, besides sometimes for a K.O.

Yeah I see where you're coming from about the risk involved. I could be wrong, but I think the Super Armour comes into play during and near the end of the actual dash animation. From my experience, it's fairly safe to use it against someone who is rolling though. Give it a few tries anyway and see how it works out for you.

 

[CommanderVimes]

Do we think that there is ever a reason to use Orbitars on the ground to block physical attacks rather than your regular shield? The special provides more pushback, kind of acting like an advancing guard in MvC2, though I think unlike that game I do not know if there is any use for it since there's no concept of resetting pressure or ranged punishes. I guess they could whiff their next attack because they are not used to the spacing, but even then we're probably better off with an OoS punish.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

I have seen the orbitars push people off the stage if you use it on certain moves. Thats the only reason I can think of that you would use those over your actual shield. Seems very situational though.

 

[Tsutori]

A lot of people (myself included) feel that Pit is more of a sword user ish character then ever, and plays in a similar vein to Marth now. Do you agree? Do you feel this is (drastically?) dissimilar to how he is in brawl?

I don't know if I'd say that he plays like Marth now, per se, but he definitely has a more aggressive game than in Brawl due to the arrow nerfs and the addition of the Upperdash Arm. The buff to multihit moves has also been really good for him.

 

[FiXalaS]

Smash 4 Pit is a gimper. as it's hard to get a safe kill

but his arrows + his fair and nair are so good for edge guarding.

 

[LancerStaff]

Don't fret Lancer that was a big help! Is it the multi-hit nature of fair that makes it pretty safe? I don't really know what I am defining as safe since I have not really thought about the concept in the Smash series yet.
So you generally keep it back and then use the nice range on his airs to react to enemy approaches? I think that will be my starting game plan.

Fair has lots of reach and it's quick. Not much damage though. Ftilt would probably be better, since it does 10% with the edges of the swing.

Another site noticed that Pittoo's FTilt has much less knockback overall than Pit's. And after running some tests, I discovered that person was completely right.

Maybe these threads should be de-merged or some more tests should be done.

EDIT; Fixed the link. That was embarrassing...

It's still just one move, although there's probably another somewhere to make up for it. I'd understand if it could combo, but Pit's combos about as well. (Which is to say, not very.) DP is still more-or-less an extension of Pit.

I'm warming up to Pit a bit. I think this is a character that I will warm up to more and more the better I get. I'm still locked in around 60% win rate in For Glory but that's because I have so many losses. I feel myself getting better. Since your jab and dash attacks and other stuff only does a slight launch, it's a good way to bait into an up smash -> air juggling, or a f-air, and I'm getting better at baiting stuff too.

I'd like to hear some "combos" that you guys use to rack up damage, or at least attacks that you commonly use together even if they're not proper combos.

I kind of wish Pit had Dark Pit's side-B, but I think Pit will always be the viable one because of the arrows. Dark Pit's are basically uncontrollable and I sometimes have to curve my arrows on Pit up to hit a jumping target, or sometimes I like to shoot while I'm off stage since I can get a couple of arrows off and still recover if I get sent flying, and of course shooting at off stage opponents that YOU send flying, and both requires aiming.

So I definitely wouldn't give up Pit's arrows at this point for Dark Pit's side-B.At this point I see no reason why anyone would use Dark Pit.

Custom moves are banned in For Glory and will most likely be banned for tournament play, (besides maybe the crappy official Nintendo ones, which even play with stage hazards...) so I won't factor that in to what I'm saying.

Why just stick with one? You admitted yourself DP has uses. DP's arrows aren't as bad as they look, either. His are faster and deal more damage, probably beating out Pit's in the pure spam department. Pit's are for hitting opponents offstage and such. Yaknow, it's a balance. Same with the Arms. Ftilt still baffles me though...

Really though, use both. DP is 1000x better at dealing with Macs solely because of Electroshock. Seriously, I don't think they can get around it when recovering.

Combos? Dthrow to aerial, DA has some follow-ups, sour Ftilt to Ftilt (at like 0%), and Uthrow to arrows off the top of my head. There's some potential aerial to Utilt combos I've been looking at, too.

Can anybody test out the knock back differences between Pit and Dark Pit's Down Tilt, Up Tilt, Forward Smash, Down Smash, Up Smash, and Back Aerial? I'd love to test it myself but I'm holding out for the Wii U version. I honestly doubt that Dark Pit doesn't have one advantage over Pit after seeing that Pit's Ftilt is stronger than Dark Pit's. I'm especially interested in the Down Smash and Back Aerials, since I've heard that Dark Pit's are stronger but I haven't seen confirmation.

Nothing immediately obvious, but I haven't had time to compare KO%s to what I've wrote in my guide, either.

A lot of people (myself included) feel that Pit is more of a sword user ish character then ever, and plays in a similar vein to Marth now. Do you agree? Do you feel this is (drastically?) dissimilar to how he is in brawl?

It's really hard to say. Spacing is definitely more important now, but Pit is still just as flexible as ever. Most moves are different, but his general style remains. I'd like to see more of 4 Pit (and Brawl Pit TBH) before we say they're vastly different.

Do we think that there is ever a reason to use Orbitars on the ground to block physical attacks rather than your regular shield? The special provides more pushback, kind of acting like an advancing guard in MvC2, though I think unlike that game I do not know if there is any use for it since there's no concept of resetting pressure or ranged punishes. I guess they could whiff their next attack because they are not used to the spacing, but even then we're probably better off with an OoS punish.

Using it grounded for attacks seems to be useless in general. Even for pushing you should SH and move into the opponent. It's best used in the air for blocking attacks, since you can at least move away while doing so.

 

[Lenus Altair]

I don't know if I'd say that he plays like Marth now, per se, but he definitely has a more aggressive game than in Brawl due to the arrow nerfs and the addition of the Upperdash Arm. The buff to multihit moves has also been really good for him.

I agree the he has a more aggressive game, though I feel a large part of that is how badly his arrow was nerfed. Honestly I feel it was one of the most heavily nerf projectiles overall coming from brawl. The unsafeness of it has really made it a gimp/knock away follow up more then anything else.

Smash 4 Pit is a gimper. as it's hard to get a safe kill

but his arrows + his fair and nair are so good for edge guarding.

I really wish we had is old fair as opposed to the new one, not to mention bair. But the new nair is really nice.

It's really hard to say. Spacing is definitely more important now, but Pit is still just as flexible as ever. Most moves are different, but his general style remains. I'd like to see more of 4 Pit (and Brawl Pit TBH) before we say they're vastly different.

Pit being a well rounded character will help him a lot and likely keeping him from ever droppoing below the middle of mid tier, but I'm not sure I see him quite as flexible. Brawl Pit could outcamp most of the cast before, but he is completely incapable of doing that now with his arrow nerfs. Also, with the exception of Nair, his aerials don't seem as useful as before. His new Fair and Bair feel particularly weaker, and the loss of glair is annoying (though not crucial.) While his new Up B is a great recovery move, it's doesn't hold a candle to his old one in versatility and potential (seemingly.)

S4 Pit feels like a character who wants to stick to the ground and abuse his above average reach and grab ranges to out space and get people off stage where he goes for any early kill. While Brawl Pit had that element to his game, he also had Wing stalling/dashing/renewel and the koing aireals making him a bigger threat in the air/harder to juggle. Then there was a safe camping game to stay long distance. S4 Pit doesn't have those options.

That's not to say that S4 Pit doesn't have potential new options that are useful or tons of techniques hidden in his code, I just see S4 Pit leaning in an overall different direction.

Regardless, it will continue to be a hard transition for me personally. You have NO IDEA how many times I've tried to wing stall and can't, glide and fall flat, angelic step and just rotate in place, or shoot an arrow that somehow still gets punished from over half of final destination away. Brawl Pit was a character that allowed a number of different play styles, and mine just doesn't exist with S4 Pit... *sniffle*

 

[Clemente]

I don't know about using Dark Pit. I have tried him and his arrows don't curve enough for me. I go for pretty major curves when I'm aiming them.

Both Dark Pit and Pit's arrows are mostly useless and punishable if both players are on the stage, except for an occasional arrow shot to mix it up/confuse.

It's really weird how Pit's concept is that he's an archer and yet he has some of the worst projectiles now for actually fighting. Like I said I usually can only use it on people in air or when I'm in the air.

It's weird that as the character whose main appeal is being an archer, I'm chasing around Link because his projectiles just destroy mine. Hell on Villager, even my little slingshot is more useful than Pit's arrows. lol. Our arrows have about as much lag to use as Samus missiles. Actually, it seems like Pit might even have a little more startup lag on using arrows than Samus missiles.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Experimenting with chaining Pittoo's unique Ftilt between Nair, Dtilt, Fair, and the Silver Bow. Success is on-again-off-again.

 

[Phoenix502]

You can also do a rising Dair as well.

assuming you can land the sweetspot, which from what I've tested, is directly beneath him. if it isn't center, it's not a meteor...

 

[LancerStaff]

I agree the he has a more aggressive game, though I feel a large part of that is how badly his arrow was nerfed. Honestly I feel it was one of the most heavily nerf projectiles overall coming from brawl. The unsafeness of it has really made it a gimp/knock away follow up more then anything else.



I really wish we had is old fair as opposed to the new one, not to mention bair. But the new nair is really nice.



Pit being a well rounded character will help him a lot and likely keeping him from ever droppoing below the middle of mid tier, but I'm not sure I see him quite as flexible. Brawl Pit could outcamp most of the cast before, but he is completely incapable of doing that now with his arrow nerfs. Also, with the exception of Nair, his aerials don't seem as useful as before. His new Fair and Bair feel particularly weaker, and the loss of glair is annoying (though not crucial.) While his new Up B is a great recovery move, it's doesn't hold a candle to his old one in versatility and potential (seemingly.)

S4 Pit feels like a character who wants to stick to the ground and abuse his above average reach and grab ranges to out space and get people off stage where he goes for any early kill. While Brawl Pit had that element to his game, he also had Wing stalling/dashing/renewel and the koing aireals making him a bigger threat in the air/harder to juggle. Then there was a safe camping game to stay long distance. S4 Pit doesn't have those options.

That's not to say that S4 Pit doesn't have potential new options that are useful or tons of techniques hidden in his code, I just see S4 Pit leaning in an overall different direction.

Regardless, it will continue to be a hard transition for me personally. You have NO IDEA how many times I've tried to wing stall and can't, glide and fall flat, angelic step and just rotate in place, or shoot an arrow that somehow still gets punished from over half of final destination away. Brawl Pit was a character that allowed a number of different play styles, and mine just doesn't exist with S4 Pit... *sniffle*

I don't think his arrows have been hurt that much. They're still pretty good, but definitely rebalanced. Fair I definitely believe is an improvement, if only for the crazy reach. And to be honest, Pit's aerial mobility needed a nerf. It was just too easy to stall with. And now he has the Upperdash to help make up for it. Only aerial that got nerfed was his Bair, IMO. I've always had trouble getting back on the ground.

Yeah, I'm sad that the old techniques are gone, but so are most everybody else's. Pit's new moves could lead to new ones, too. Me, I transitioned well, even though I used most of his old techs and moves aplenty. IDK, there's still alot to the new game we don't understand.

I don't know about using Dark Pit. I have tried him and his arrows don't curve enough for me. I go for pretty major curves when I'm aiming them.

Both Dark Pit and Pit's arrows are mostly useless and punishable if both players are on the stage, except for an occasional arrow shot to mix it up/confuse.

It's really weird how Pit's concept is that he's an archer and yet he has some of the worst projectiles now for actually fighting. Like I said I usually can only use it on people in air or when I'm in the air.

It's weird that as the character whose main appeal is being an archer, I'm chasing around Link because his projectiles just destroy mine. Hell on Villager, even my little slingshot is more useful than Pit's arrows. lol. Our arrows have about as much lag to use as Samus missiles. Actually, it seems like Pit might even have a little more startup lag on using arrows than Samus missiles.

You're undershooting their arrows pretty bad. The big thing is that you have to be creative. Link for example, will just shoot your arrow with his if he's charging. Let him do it once, then quickly fire another and go up and over his. In my experience, the only character that Pit has trouble camping against is Fox, but it's usually even and generally worthless for either of you to camp.

Experimenting with chaining Pittoo's unique Ftilt between Nair, Dtilt, Fair, and the Silver Bow. Success is on-again-off-again.

It's about what I expected... It's just so bizarre to have one move just nerfed to heck for no apparent reason, yaknow? I really wish we could find another move to make up for it.

 

[FiXalaS]

so Dark Pit turned out to be worse overall?

in my experience, I saw that I'm actually killing with Upperdash arm, and I succeeded many times finishing a certain combo with an arrow, that arrow also opens up for dodges for me to read then counter them with up air or something else.

 

[Clemente]

I don't think his arrows have been hurt that much. They're still pretty good, but definitely rebalanced. Fair I definitely believe is an improvement, if only for the crazy reach. And to be honest, Pit's aerial mobility needed a nerf. It was just too easy to stall with. And now he has the Upperdash to help make up for it. Only aerial that got nerfed was his Bair, IMO. I've always had trouble getting back on the ground.

Yeah, I'm sad that the old techniques are gone, but so are most everybody else's. Pit's new moves could lead to new ones, too. Me, I transitioned well, even though I used most of his old techs and moves aplenty. IDK, there's still alot to the new game we don't understand.



You're undershooting their arrows pretty bad. The big thing is that you have to be creative. Link for example, will just shoot your arrow with his if he's charging. Let him do it once, then quickly fire another and go up and over his. In my experience, the only character that Pit has trouble camping against is Fox, but it's usually even and generally worthless for either of you to camp.



It's about what I expected... It's just so bizarre to have one move just nerfed to heck for no apparent reason, yaknow? I really wish we could find another move to make up for it.

I wasn't trying to say the arrows are useless or something, because I use them for various things, but I just find that they're a tool and you can't really use it offensively to pressure like some other characters can do with their projectiles.

I don't see what you're saying vs. Link, I have to use an arrow or 2 to cancel out his arrow/boomerang, then approach him. I find that I'm always the one chasing people if they try to camp, or I'll get overwhelmed by their projectiles.

 

[LancerStaff]

so Dark Pit turned out to be worse overall?

in my experience, I saw that I'm actually killing with Upperdash arm, and I succeeded many times finishing a certain combo with an arrow, that arrow also opens up for dodges for me to read then counter them with up air or something else.

If he's worse, it's not by much.

I wasn't trying to say the arrows are useless or something, because I use them for various things, but I just find that they're a tool and you can't really use it offensively to pressure like some other characters can do with their projectiles.

I don't see what you're saying vs. Link, I have to use an arrow or 2 to cancel out his arrow/boomerang, then approach him. I find that I'm always the one chasing people if they try to camp, or I'll get overwhelmed by their projectiles.

IDK if I'm just fighting horrible players, but the only character that can really keep me from shooting arrows is Fox. When I fight a Link I zigzag my arrows every which-way and just generally keep them guessing.

 

[Clemente]

I'm not having trouble with Link or anything, I just find that I have to be the one to get in his face, if he's using both the boomerang and the arrows quickly. I'm not sure what you mean by zigzag though.

I should probably stop complaining about Pit because I'm up to 70% win rate with 1400 For Glory matches, which shot up from around 60%. I'm starting to have a lot of success using Pit exclusively.

I tried using Dark Pit and I have no idea how anyone could use it over Pit. I get so many kills on Pit doing almost 90 degree angle changes on my arrows, curving around the stage to barrage people or curving up into the sky, or curving down while I shoot from midair, etc. Dark Pit's arrows just can't do this stuff. It provides so much utility now that I can aim the arrows with a lot of precision.

 

[Hitzel]

Question for you guys:

If one of the Pits does a side B off-stage and hits the opponent, does he go into special fall?

I ask this because I'm wondering if, as Jiggs, I have to worry about Pit's side-B while offstage trying to gimp him.

Thanks guys!

*Edit*

Just found out that Pit recovers even faster when his side-b hits mid-air. Hmm...

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm not having trouble with Link or anything, I just find that I have to be the one to get in his face, if he's using both the boomerang and the arrows quickly. I'm not sure what you mean by zigzag though.

I should probably stop complaining about Pit because I'm up to 70% win rate with 1400 For Glory matches, which shot up from around 60%. I'm starting to have a lot of success using Pit exclusively.

I tried using Dark Pit and I have no idea how anyone could use it over Pit. I get so many kills on Pit doing almost 90 degree angle changes on my arrows, curving around the stage to barrage people or curving up into the sky, or curving down while I shoot from midair, etc. Dark Pit's arrows just can't do this stuff. It provides so much utility now that I can aim the arrows with a lot of precision.

Yaknow, aim it over or under his. One thing that helps with Link especially is hitting his Boomerang with the Upperdash. It flings it directly back at him and it'll push him back to give you more space.

And you said it yourself: DP's Electroshock is very useful. It's perfect for gimping Mac, DK, Bowser, probably Charizard, and even Fox and Falco if you're quick.

Question for you guys:

If one of the Pits does a side B off-stage and hits the opponent, does he go into special fall?

I ask this because I'm wondering if, as Jiggs, I have to worry about Pit's side-B while offstage trying to gimp him.

Thanks guys!

*Edit*

Just found out that Pit recovers even faster when his side-b hits mid-air. Hmm...

No special fall, but it's pretty dang close. Yeah, you'll have to worry about it alright. He's safe in using it until he's a bit below FD's ledge.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

Tried to post this earlier but the site was being dumb.

Yeah I'm thinking theres not much reason use Dark Pit over regular Pit except for a few player by player and character basis. For example, I just learned that Dark Pit absolutely destroys Lumas. Electroshock Arm can kill it from any point on Final Destination. So maybe might want to use Dark Pit vs Rosalina if the Luma really bothers you or the Rosalina is very reliant on it.

 

[Frostwraith]

Are there really differences between Pit and Dark Pit's forward tilts?

I tested both moves and they seem to deal the same % and knockback (KO'ing the same character at the same %).

Is there something I'm missing here?

EDIT: Did further tests.

Dark Pit's is slightly weaker. Doesn't seem to make much of a difference overall and may have its own advantages, considering it deals the same damage as Pit's.

 

[SaucyDancer]

Is there any where I can find a frame by frame comparison between the Pits. Some guy on Reddit is telling me that Dark Pit's aerials come out faster but stay around for longer but this is not what I have experienced as they seem the same.

 

[Lenus Altair]

I don't think his arrows have been hurt that much. They're still pretty good, but definitely rebalanced.

When you can punish an arrow from the length of final destination, I'd say its a significant nerf. A nerf that will stand out more on console where the finesse to move, shield, and advance will be even easier.

Fair I definitely believe is an improvement, if only for the crazy reach. And to be honest, Pit's aerial mobility needed a nerf. It was just too easy to stall with. And now he has the Upperdash to help make up for it. Only aerial that got nerfed was his Bair, IMO. I've always had trouble getting back on the ground.

A lot of his aerials have been rebalanced, though it makes me sad how they all don't auto cancel anymore. The lack of aerial maneuverability from WOI being gone though stands out to me and played into the reach of his moves.

Yeah, I'm sad that the old techniques are gone, but so are most everybody else's. Pit's new moves could lead to new ones, too. Me, I transitioned well, even though I used most of his old techs and moves aplenty. IDK, there's still alot to the new game we don't understand.

I agree and had already mentioned that new techs with him would be discovered, and while I'll probably always use Pit since I have such a history exclusively maining him in Brawl, his S4 incarnation doesn't look like it has room for the playstyle I came to use. That's all.

 

[SwoodGrommet]

When you can punish an arrow from the length of final destination, I'd say its a significant nerf..

Just wondering, in what way are you guys getting punished for using arrows? I just can't get a picture of it in my head.

 

[Clemente]

Just wondering, in what way are you guys getting punished for using arrows? I just can't get a picture of it in my head.

If both people are on the stage, you absolutely can be punished for shooting more than one arrow, or sometimes even by shooting one. There's so much lag. Like I said I'm getting a lot of use for arrows with gimping and stuff. But as far as a straight forward projectile when you're facing off I'm just not seeing it. The arrows suck in the way that other characters can use their projectiles. I booted up Brawl a couple days ago and Pit's arrows were literally like 2x as fast or more. Maybe they were too quick, especially for Smash 4 where the whole ranked online is on Final Destination, but it feels like they got nerfed too much in the startup delay.

 

[SwoodGrommet]

If both people are on the stage, you absolutely can be punished for shooting more than one arrow, or sometimes even by shooting one. There's so much lag. Like I said I'm getting a lot of use for arrows with gimping and stuff. But as far as a straight forward projectile when you're facing off I'm just not seeing it. The arrows suck in the way that other characters can use their projectiles. I booted up Brawl a couple days ago and Pit's arrows were literally like 2x as fast or more. Maybe they were too quick, especially for Smash 4 where the whole ranked online is on Final Destination, but it feels like they got nerfed too much in the startup delay.

Ah, alright I see where you're coming from. At least they're useful for edge guarding and gimping, I suppose.

 

[LancerStaff]

Is there any where I can find a frame by frame comparison between the Pits. Some guy on Reddit is telling me that Dark Pit's aerials come out faster but stay around for longer but this is not what I have experienced as they seem the same.

Pretty darned sure they're the same.

Are there really differences between Pit and Dark Pit's forward tilts?

I tested both moves and they seem to deal the same % and knockback (KO'ing the same character at the same %).

Is there something I'm missing here?

EDIT: Did further tests.

Dark Pit's is slightly weaker. Doesn't seem to make much of a difference overall and may have its own advantages, considering it deals the same damage as Pit's.

It has significantly weaker knockback, especially the sweetspot.

When you can punish an arrow from the length of final destination, I'd say its a significant nerf. A nerf that will stand out more on console where the finesse to move, shield, and advance will be even easier.

A lot of his aerials have been rebalanced, though it makes me sad how they all don't auto cancel anymore. The lack of aerial maneuverability from WOI being gone though stands out to me and played into the reach of his moves.

I agree and had already mentioned that new techs with him would be discovered, and while I'll probably always use Pit since I have such a history exclusively maining him in Brawl, his S4 incarnation doesn't look like it has room for the playstyle I came to use. That's all.

Only characters I can see punishing arrows from the other side of FD are Sonic, Mac, Fox, and Sheik. It isn't exactly a widespread thing, especially when you're dealing with characters who would also rather camp.

To be fair, lots of characters lost their autocancel frames. Marth, for one.

I don't think anybody has that kind of playstyle anymore...

If both people are on the stage, you absolutely can be punished for shooting more than one arrow, or sometimes even by shooting one. There's so much lag. Like I said I'm getting a lot of use for arrows with gimping and stuff. But as far as a straight forward projectile when you're facing off I'm just not seeing it. The arrows suck in the way that other characters can use their projectiles. I booted up Brawl a couple days ago and Pit's arrows were literally like 2x as fast or more. Maybe they were too quick, especially for Smash 4 where the whole ranked online is on Final Destination, but it feels like they got nerfed too much in the startup delay.

You should know that firing up has significantly less lag. I haven't experimented with it much, but I'm confident we can put it to good use.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Only characters I can see punishing arrows from the other side of FD are Sonic, Mac, Fox, and Sheik. It isn't exactly a widespread thing, especially when you're dealing with characters who would also rather camp.

I can't test it right now to confirm (at work) but I'd wager you can add Captain Falcon, ZSS, Charizard, Metaknight, Palutena, Diddy, Pikachu, and Yoshi to that list. That's not counting things like Teleports, or character specific shenanigans (I'm looking at YOU luma .)

Using arrows from neutral in this game is bad.

To be fair, lots of characters lost their autocancel frames. Marth, for one.

Yes, they did. It'll take getting used to.

 

[Scala]

Pit's arrows aren't good for ground to ground combat but they are outrageous for gimping and creating mixups for players trying to get back to the stage. A lot of times you can bait someone into airdodging into the ground from half the stage away with an arrow and then follow up with a his dash attack (which is amazing). On the other hand if they get hit, you can run up while they're stunned and start to pressure them so they can't get to the ground safely. Seriously pit has a great pressure game once he gets someone into the air, even with something as simple as a ftilt or dash attack.

I've played a lot of pit and his gameplan is to play safe and zone with shorthop/fullhop fair, random arrows, dash attack when you spot an opening, and lots and lots of ftilt. Nair out of shield is good. If you get a grab they should prepare for pain since dthrow uair combos and afterwards you can attempt to go for more uairs/fairs (depending on how they DI) or you can wait for an airdodge and punish with a falling nair to keep them in the air.

But really though pit's arrows are so incredibly useful I don't see why anyone would choose dark pit over pit. dark pit's arrows are extremely limited in usefulness when you compare them to regular pit's. Pit's arrows will gimp, rack up damage from far away, prevent players from edgeguarding you, and create lots of great mixups and pressure and dark pit simply can't do the same. Dark pit can try to hit someone else standing on the stage with an arrow, or can try to fire one at someone recovering. Nobody recovering will get hit by one though since the zone where it can possibly travel is so narrow an airdodge will always dodge it

 

[LancerStaff]

But really though pit's arrows are so incredibly useful I don't see why anyone would choose dark pit over pit.

Pit has his arrows, Dark Pit has his Electroshock Arm. It outright KOs people out of recoveries. Really, you should learn to use both.

 

[Riverside J]

Was Practicing with Pit last night and I was trying out the Fast Fall mechanic to see how it worked. On some moves like Nair, Air Back +A (excuse me if I'm saying any of this wrong, if I am please correct me), and Air Down+A, I got some pretty interesting results.

For one, Nair recovers very fast and when I applied Fast Fall to it, I was able to grab an opponent as soon as I landed. This was due to me fast falling in the middle of the attack, so the final hit of Nair didn't knock the opponent away, instead they landed right next to me. Pit recovered before they did and I was able to grab them right after.

For Air Back +A (When Pit does a thrust with his blades behind him in the air), I would do a Down Throw and preform Air Back+A then Fast Fall when they were in hitstun. I would recover very fast and then I was able to land a Up Smash or another follow up, which I wasn't able to do so before. I went online and tired this in matches and though I have a good record with Pit already I was preforming better due to me being able to keep players on defense once I landed any of the moves I just listed.

So all in all, my question is is this the way combos are sped up in a Smash game? I know this isn't Melee where L-canceling and Wavedashing will extend your combos or movement options, but this is working wonders for my Pit, and with moves that recover quickly I'm able to maintain a strong air and ground game. If any one can give me more insight on this, that would be great.

 

[FiXalaS]

Was Practicing with Pit last night and I was trying out the Fast Fall mechanic to see how it worked. On some moves like Nair, Air Back +A (excuse me if I'm saying any of this wrong, if I am please correct me), and Air Down+A, I got some pretty interesting results.

For one, Nair recovers very fast and when I applied Fast Fall to it, I was able to grab an opponent as soon as I landed. This was due to me fast falling in the middle of the attack, so the final hit of Nair didn't knock the opponent away, instead they landed right next to me. Pit recovered before they did and I was able to grab them right after.

For Air Back +A (When Pit does a thrust with his blades behind him in the air), I would do a Down Throw and preform Air Back+A then Fast Fall when they were in hitstun. I would recover very fast and then I was able to land a Up Smash or another follow up, which I wasn't able to do so before. I went online and tired this in matches and though I have a good record with Pit already I was preforming better due to me being able to keep players on defense once I landed any of the moves I just listed.

So all in all, my question is is this the way combos are sped up in a Smash game? I know this isn't Melee where L-canceling and Wavedashing will extend your combos or movement options, but this is working wonders for my Pit, and with moves that recover quickly I'm able to maintain a strong air and ground game. If any one can give me more insight on this, that would be great.

when i fast fall from Nair there is always lag, can you record some of that stuff?

 

[New_Dumal]

Was Practicing with Pit last night and I was trying out the Fast Fall mechanic to see how it worked. On some moves like Nair, Air Back +A (excuse me if I'm saying any of this wrong, if I am please correct me), and Air Down+A, I got some pretty interesting results.

Thanks for the information. I will "correct" you just to help.
The most used terminology to the aerials are : Nair (as you said, to neutral air) , Bair (to "Air back+A), Uair (to "Air up+A) and Dair.
Keep the good work and discoveries, and if you can, bring us some videos.I'm very excited to watch some Pit comboing, because I really think he lacks options to combo if your opponent VI just right.
With some nice follow-ups I get sometimes, I'm almost certainly is my opponents fault.
At least, fast falled Dair (spike) bouncing the opponent to USmash seems to be a true combo in heavy characters.

 

[Riverside J]

Thanks for the information. I will "correct" you just to help.
The most used terminology to the aerials are : Nair (as you said, to neutral air) , Bair (to "Air back+A), Uair (to "Air up+A) and Dair.
Keep the good work and discoveries, and if you can, bring us some videos.I'm very excited to watch some Pit comboing, because I really think he lacks options to combo if your opponent VI just right.
With some nice follow-ups I get sometimes, I'm almost certainly is my opponents fault.
At least, fast falled Dair (spike) bouncing the opponent to USmash seems to be a true combo in heavy characters.

Thanks for your help. I was trying this when fighting a friend and he was indeed able to VI out it. The best thing that it did was allow me to keep up my Tech Chasing better due to me recovering faster. I still really like Pit, and will use him in certain matchups.

 

[Bomber913]

From what I've seen so far. ( correct me if I'm wrong) Pit is more agile than Dark Pit but Dark Pit is a little stronger. I think I'll main Pit because of that. Does anyone have some pro tips?

 

[LancerStaff]

From what I've seen so far. ( correct me if I'm wrong) Pit is more agile than Dark Pit but Dark Pit is a little stronger. I think I'll main Pit because of that. Does anyone have some pro tips?

They're 99% identical. Most A moves are exactly the same. Pick whichever you think will be more useful for the situation. Pit has the good arrows, and DP has the good Arm.

The Electroshock knocks opponents at a steeper angle and has Super Armor, so it's key use is intercepting opponents using predictable recoveries, like Little Mac. It also one-shots Luma 99% of the time, so DP also has the advantage against Rosalina.

Pit's arrows are pretty self explanitory. Shoot them whenever you get a chance, especially when they're out of your reach. They're pretty easy to use now too.

Pit is generally the safer choice, but DP handles Mac and Rosalina much better. There's no reason to just stick with one, so try switching if you're in a tough spot.

 

[Bomber913]

They're 99% identical. Most A moves are exactly the same. Pick whichever you think will be more useful for the situation. Pit has the good arrows, and DP has the good Arm.

The Electroshock knocks opponents at a steeper angle and has Super Armor, so it's key use is intercepting opponents using predictable recoveries, like Little Mac. It also one-shots Luma 99% of the time, so DP also has the advantage against Rosalina.

Pit's arrows are pretty self explanitory. Shoot them whenever you get a chance, especially when they're out of your reach. They're pretty easy to use now too.

Pit is generally the safer choice, but DP handles Mac and Rosalina much better. There's no reason to just stick with one, so try switching if you're in a tough spot.

Thanks for the advice. I'll try switching between them in For Glory and see which one I like best. I'm definitely maining one of them though!

 

[MiloniVanili]

They're 99% identical. Most A moves are exactly the same. Pick whichever you think will be more useful for the situation. Pit has the good arrows, and DP has the good Arm.

wrong.

pit has the good arm and the good arrows. pits arm is actually objectively better because it also has super armor and it kills earlier against every character in the game. pit also has an f tilt that kills earlier because of the tipper. all dark pit has is an f throw that kills slightly earlier

 

[Deleted member]

wrong.

pit has the good arm and the good arrows. pits arm is actually objectively better because it also has super armor and it kills earlier against every character in the game. pit also has an f tilt that kills earlier because of the tipper. all dark pit has is an f throw that kills slightly earlier

Dark Pit can use controllable arrows if he feels like it, and the difference between that custom and Pit's normal/controllable arrow custom is not that big since both are very precise, especially at long range, which is practically the only time you should use arrows.

Both Pit's and Dark Pit's arms have super armor, and Dark Pit's does 0.5% more. I have no idea where you got you're information. The arm you want to use is stage dependent most of the time, seeing as Dark Pit's sends you diagonally upwards and Pit's sends you upwards. However, Dark Pit's can force gimp situations since it sends opponents offstage, setting up for gimps with arrows or aerials. Pit's can KO earlier on platforms, and Dark Pit's can KO earlier near the edge of the stage.

The Ftilt is the only outright advantage Pit has (I really don't know why it has more knock back, or even why Dark Pit's arm does 0.5% more damage, considering everything else bar the arms and arrows are the same, even the Ftilt's damage output). The KO percents are- Tipper KO%s 163%, 134% Sour KO%s 223%, 184%
The difference is 30%, and FSmash KOs sooner anyway, plus the only time you KO is with the tipper. It might make Pit higher on the tier list by 1 spot, but both characters are so similar that the stage makes the most difference.