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Understanding Melee: Introduction Post

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
4,126
Location
Rochester, NY
Introduction to Understanding Melee

WARNING: This post contains a lot of reading, most likely anywhere from 10-20 minutes of reading. If you’ve ever gone to a tournament, watched a video, played Melee or Brawl even once competitively, or have even had thoughts about being an awesome Melee player, you owe it to yourself to read this post in its entirety. I’ve separated it into four posts so in case you don’t have the time or focus to read it all at once, it will be easy for you to read one or two sections and come back later. Thanks in advance and I hope this post sheds some light on any of the topics I cover. And to the mods, most of the time spent on this post was thinking of synonyms for my naturally foul language, so I hope you appreciate it LOL Peace!!!
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
4,126
Location
Rochester, NY
Background

Background

Alright, so I’m not sure how many people know or pay attention to players in the community, so real quick, for those who aren’t familiar with me, I’m on an obsessive quest to become the best player. There are a lot of challenges I have faced over time, am facing currently, and will face in the future. The biggest challenge so far is that my competitive nature has, for the most part, destroyed the motivation of the players that made up the foundation of WNY, my region, and therefore I struggle getting to tournaments.

Not being one to let anything slow me down, I spend massive, massive amounts of time in my room practicing and testing different theories I come up with. There are about 2-4 really motivated players in my region at this point, and although they’re all at a very low level of play, they still come to practice with me every week. So, oddly enough, about 80% of my game has come from practicing with what most people would refer to as noobs. This has led me to develop an extremely analytical mindset in order to cope with the lack of competition. I’ve begun to develop an extremely deep understanding of the game.

Now hold up. Before anyone starts to snicker or laugh or troll, because I know that’s what Smashboards LOVES to do, especially the more “elitist” players, check out where I’m coming from.

I actually was hesitant to even post this, because I personally believe in the integrity and respect of the community. What does that mean? That means that every player above me that has proven themselves in tournament, I won’t get into a debate with them. I won’t even argue their points. Even if I believe with 100% of my soul that I’m right and they’re wrong, in order to preserve the respect of great players that have proven themselves in tournament, I’m not going to argue with them.

Talk to most top players and they’ll tell you why they normally don’t like debating on Smashboards. Because the masses of Smashboards, who watch videos and place low in tournaments are always on the site upping their post count and arguing to death. To the good players, it’s like “Wtf…How would this kid know anything?” And they get pissed and then post something mean and disrespectful, and “DING!” that’s where the elitism is developed. For the most part I mean. Maybe some people are naturally elitist, but I’ve seen many examples of my above statement.

So, if I don’t feel I’m at a high enough level yet to post information that I’ve come up with, why am I doing it? Well first off, a lot of people post advice coming from a place of ego. When a player asks a question, most people who jump to answer it (I shouldn’t say most, but many) aren’t really answering in hopes of helping the player improve. They’re answering hoping that people will see their post and they will gain respect. I already told you, I’m all about tourney results, so I could care less about what people think of my online posting.

I want to post this for everyone at a lower level than me, because it will help you understand the game better, and if you actually read it and apply it, you will see results. I’m not hyping it up or trying to sound cool either. Melee is a very abstract game, which makes its learning curve really high and admittedly at lower levels, annoying sometimes.

If you’re a top player reading this, you most likely have INTERNALIZED this information, even if you couldn’t explain it. Most top players can’t explain Melee and I think that’s really awesome. That’s an example of what’s called UNCONSCIOUS COMPETENCE. You’re really good at something but you don’t really know how you’re doing it, or you can’t explain it. If I lived in a stacked region I might be better overall as a player, (Actually I believe whatever region I lived in I would be #1 in because I could actually play against those players and I’ll do anything to learn and become better. Ok, sorry, I had to throw in a little bit of ego there :-P) but I most likely wouldn’t understand the game at the level I do. So I’ve developed CONSCIOUS COMPETENCE, an understanding of every single thing that I’m doing in the game.

I love helping people and I truly want to see Melee expand and grow as a competitive game. There’s lots of ideas out there to do that, personally I don’t agree with many of them but I definitely encourage them to at least be tested, but this is my way of, for right now, maybe starting a small little ripple in the community in terms of growth. Getting players of a lower level to a higher level increases motivation, it helps them develop an appreciation for the game and if they start taking out high level players (Let’s go Niko!!!) that will also light a fire under the you know whats of better players.

Lastly, I didn’t want to start posting my findings on the game because I wanted to wait until I tore it up at a big tournament, maybe to have more influence or more say. Whatever though, I know this stuff can help people so here goes.
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
4,126
Location
Rochester, NY
Competitive Melee vs. Other games

When I started playing in 07, the main thing that attracted me to Melee was its “DBZ” like nature, or in other words the fact that good players could absolutely OBLITERATE players of lower levels. Since I’ve gotten older and more experienced, I know now that what I was talking about was the “Skill Gaps” of players, and what really comes from is the depth of Melee.

Listen very carefully when I say this, and don’t just read, but really think about it. THE POTENTIAL OF A COMPETITIVE GAME TO SEPARATE PLAYERS IN TERMS OF RESULTS AND SKILL IS DIRECTLY CORRELATED TO THE AMOUNT OF DEPTH THE PARTICULAR GAME HAS. Here’s what I mean by that. Look at MVC 3, a new game that people are really hype over. The skill gaps in that game are not nearly, NEARLY as wide as Melee’s is, or 3rd strike, or Starcraft. In other words, someone who has been playing Melee for a few months won’t be able to touch me, or any other player that has been honing their skills over the years.

Funny how this works, because this is actually what you want in a competitive game, but because so many players are looking for the “quick fix,” (meaning they want to get good as fast as possible, this is a direct result of the “instant gratification” mindset that our society has developed) this turns them off. It can actually go both ways. Someone who understands and appreciates the depth will actually let this motivate them, and those are the top players you see today. For the weaker players, and I don’t mean to come off as abrasive when I say weak, they will quit and seek out a game with less depth. What’s also funny is that when you talk to these players about the game they’ve chosen to switch to, they will always come up with every reason possible to defend their game and their decision to be playing it. In psychology, this is a concept called “Backwards Rationalization.” Everyone wants to feel good about the decisions they make, so regardless of what the facts are, they will come up with every reason why they’re right. We all do this, every day in every aspect of our lives. That’s why it’s remarkable to come across someone willing to be flexible on his/her viewpoints, who’s willing to be able to admit that they are wrong. (This is also an amazing concept to understand for any of you in sales. The understanding of this is what led me to be the #1 seller for my old company last year and give me the money I needed to travel on the West Coast for ½ months)

Anyways, this results in a low concentration of really really motivated high level players, and then there’s the masses. The people that don’t go to another game lurk around on Smashboards, getting sucked in to the online community and the ease with which they can “gain respect” and prove themselves. I personally think seeking out knowledge online and talking with other players is healthy, to an extent. You do learn, yes, but you also limit yourself and even brainwash yourself into NOT IMPROVING. You get comfortable with the knowledge you have, the people you know and the friends you’ve made in your social threads, etc.

Then there’s the battlefield, the all intimidating environment of a tournament. This is where your emotions are tested, and for that reason is also why many players either stay away from tournaments and come up with every excuse not to attend them, or why they don’t put their all into improving. When you get trashed by a player that’s better than you, or a player who you THINK you should have beaten, (Haven’t we all said that at one point? I “should” have beaten him, but I didn’t because of this reason...very common phrase heard when talking to players of all levels) it’s so much easier to get upset, go home and do everything in the world besides actually get better.

So back to the amount of depth in a game. Although it’s very healthy for a game to have a lot of depth, lots of times it works against the game. The people at Capcom and Nintendo understand this principle, the principle of APPEALING TO THE MASSES, which is why we’re now in an era of games with limited amounts of depth, but you can see the number of people attending their tournaments rising. Street Fighter 4 has so many more players than the old SF games, and look at MVC3 and even Brawl. All games have been “dumbed down,” or in other words the amount of options the game contains has been purposely decreased, and the difficulty of the technical execution has been eased. SF4 is the closest game to a highly successful tournament game that has a decent balance between a learning curve that attracts lots of players, and the depth required to create skill gaps between players. Skill gaps are important because it allows players who have put massive time and understanding into the game to reap their rewards.

Look at Melee, look at Mango. Even after retiring, he’s able to still choose a BS character and trash everybody. This is a RED FLAG, or a sign that Melee has what it takes to become, and I TRULY 100% believe this, the biggest and most successful competitive fighting game there is. Many people are going to argue and come up with reasons why this isn’t true, and although I can’t stop you from posting, I’m going to ask you not to really focus on this, because this isn’t what I want this thread to turn into. I don’t want it to turn into a debate between games. That’s dumb and it’s not my purpose, so work with me here. If you really feel the urge to talk about it, at least do so in a way that won’t promote arguing.

That’s where a huge part of my motivation to become the best lies. I want the influence and power that comes with being that good, so that when I put together information that could sway people and have them understand what I’m trying to get at, they’ll listen instead of brushing it off. I also believe this is the way it SHOULD be. We should be REQUIRED to reach a certain skill level before we have influence over the community. This is healthy and gives due credit where it’s deserved.

At any rate, there are a few things holding Melee back. First off the difficulty of the game. Many players don’t want to get involved in it because of that difficulty, although they will never admit it. (Mainly because their brains have subconsciously sought out reasons why Melee sucks and their game is better) We need people to teach the game, and not teach it from a place of ego, but from a place of motivation. Motivation to actually produce tangible results in the tournament placings of lower level players. This is also an interesting concept, because if there was NO ONE to teach Melee, there would still be a handful of players rising to the top, because when someone is motivated to become great, there is no obstacle that will stand in the way. They might not know how they’re going to get there, but they’ll do it. But again, then we’re losing out on other players who don’t believe that can become great. Who don’t want to put in the time and make the necessary sacrifices to become **** beyond what most of us could ever see them becoming. Their potential will never be realized. This is what’s happened in the community so far, and this is what’s happening right now. Some of you might recognize this scenario if you’ve read David Sirlin’s work, and if you haven’t I highly encourage you to do so. Don’t get caught up in his writings, it’s not the end all be all and many of it I believe is actually outdated and doesn’t apply to Melee, but his views on how a community is developed have so far proven to be accurate.

What’s important to keep in mind is that I don’t want to nurture any lower level players. I don’t want anyone to EVER think someone’s going to make them good. In fact it’s a bit of an internal conflict for me, and I feel this conflict waging inside of me like a war when I’m playing players of lower levels. On one hand, as a competitor, I want to absolutely crush and destroy everyone who I play. This is definitely healthy for anyone wanting to become ****, so when someone takes a stock off me in a friendly (and with the people I play on a regular this is actually only usually once every 3-4 games) I feel a massive amount of frustration and anger, and I actually use that to motivate myself to not let it happen again.

But on the flipside, I can sense when my opponent’s motivation level is decreasing, and this is how I actually destroyed my region. I’ve seen the effects of what happens when a player is so obsessed with obliterating their opponent, they do it over and over and over not giving any advice and purely focusing on ****/learning. Now, even though I live with an apartment full of Melee players (That’s how all of the tenants in my apartment met, through Melee), no one ever plays besides me. And when someone who doesn’t live with me comes to play me, in the rare chance that any of the players from the apartment do want to play, they will only play with the other person, not me. Kinda ****ed up, but whatever. What I’m getting at is, although it’s extremely hard to be a teacher and a competitor at the same time, as any coach of a professional athlete understands, I feel at this point, for me personally, it’s a skillset I want to develop, and for the community as a whole I think it could have tremendous effects on tournament attendance increasing and the community flourishing as a whole. It’s also just a fun little personal project for me to push myself. 

So as I begin to teach and get better, I’m hoping that there will be at least a few people using what I’ve come up with to increase their skill as a player, and enjoy the rewards that come from it. Don’t worry about “growing the community” or anything like that. That’s just a personal goal I have that comes from a ridiculous love and passion for the game.

So that takes care of the first part of the post. LOL I know, pretty long right? Take a break if you want to, let it sink in, or if you’re a monster you can just keep reading. The next post is where it gets really good though, so just make sure you’re prepared and aware.
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
4,126
Location
Rochester, NY
Understanding Melee at all Levels, Part 1

So way back when I was a noob (or I should say slightly noobier than I am now :-P) I could never tell what was going on in my matches. I played so blindly, I could never understand what I was doing wrong and how to get better, mainly because I didn’t know why I was losing. I couldn’t see it, I couldn’t figure it out. It made me feel terrible and it was the first time in my life I ever felt incompetent. I watched so many videos and played nonstop, alone, with people, whatever. Any way I could improve I strove for it. Within a year I beat the best player in my region, PikaPika! who at the time was really good. He placed 17th at Pound 2 and back then that was sick. We’ve come a long way as a community since then, but back then that was pretty decent.

Here’s what’s interesting though, although everyone in my region was really impressed with how fast I rose to the top, it felt like suuucccch a long time to me. I believe that my perception of time was actually a little distorted due to how much I played. Since I played much more frequently than anyone, it felt like a very slow, dragging improvement, whereas others who didn’t play as much probably didn’t understand how much I played, and subconsciously had an image of me playing about the same amount of time as them. Ok, so maybe all of our perceptions of time were distorted LOL.

Here’s what I’m getting at though: I didn’t really know how I was improving. I mostly copied videos (which I don’t do anymore and although I encourage you to try and understand the concepts behind what top players are doing, I definitely don’t encourage you to “copy” anyone, as that will create a one dimensional playstyle for you and stagnate your growth) and I played purely on instinct and reaction, something that you really don’t want to do at all LOL but hey, back then it worked right? So, after rising to the top I began to think I could **** people OOS, and how wrong I was. My first actual OOS tourney I believe was a small tourney in Pennsylvania in Harrisburg, where I lost to Scar and Vagabond, two Falcon players. (I’m just now starting to get better vs Falcon LOL def my worst matchup since the beginning of time) The fact that I lost didn’t bother me so much. What bothered me was how I felt.

I had that “blind” feeling again, where I couldn’t tell what was going on. I accredited it back then to the game being too fast, or players just being GODLIKE. My improvement was so slow back then too, because I didn’t understand what was happening, so I just kept playing blindly.

I’m trying to describe a feeling that I know many players feel because it’s a feeling and mindset that you will feel at all levels of play, unless you’re a top, top pro like Armada, PP, Mango. That’s the realization I came to, was that no matter how much better I got, when I played someone significantly better, I got that same “blind” feeling. Not knowing why you’re losing is frustrating, but after all this time, I’ve kinda come up with a concept to describe it, a way to understand it, and a way to apply it to your game so that you can maximize your learning with the amount of time you have to play. This same concept is why I’m confident that if I play with someone, ANYONE for hours on end, maybe at the most a week on end, I will be winning at the end of that time. In Arizona this summer I started off getting *****, but by the end of my week stay all the players that were 4 stocking me were only consistently 2 stocking me, sometimes only even one. And look, sometimes they did 3 stock me, sometimes (rarely LOL) I won, but I’m talking about the consistency. Axe’s Falco was my hardest challenge at the end, as he could 3 stock me more than anyone, but again, from what I remember, mostly two stocks. Anyways, enough about me. Check it:
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
4,126
Location
Rochester, NY
Understanding Melee at all Levels, Part 2​


A long time ago in Spanish class I complained to my teacher that Spanish people speak way too fast, and he replied with something I’ll never forget. He said that, it only sounds fast to us because we DON’T KNOW WHERE THE WORDS END AND BEGIN, so everything sounds like it runs together, creating a false perception that Spanish people speak very fast, when in reality, Spanish people think WE talk really fast.

This concept is the best I can think of to describe Melee. Fighting games can TECHNICALLY be broken down into situations. Situations arise when the characters are positioned a certain way. Sometimes they’re generalized, like neutral, advantage and disadvantage, but since situations are COMPRISED of options, the more options a game has, the more situations it has. In other fighting games you can create flowcharts to help understand situations better and use them to navigate through them. Try doing that with Melee though and you’ll end up writing a bible of flowcharts, due to the near infinite amount of options/situations the game has. The game’s programming, physics, number of characters and stage selections make it ridiculous in terms of depth.

So how can you begin to understand it? Well first off, Melee is more like a language than any other fighting game. Rarely do you see the same thing happen twice, just like you rarely hear a person say the exact same sentence comprised of the exact same words twice, and even if you do it happens so rarely and so far apart from the last time they said the exact same words, in the exact same order, you don’t remember. It can also be very fluid like a language, or very choppy. You can tell who has been speaking a language for their whole life, and who is in the process of learning it. In addition, even if you’ve been speaking English for your whole life, you can always be better at it. You can always pronounce better, you can always learn more words and you can always learn to communicate more effectively, even if you have a Masters in communications. Same thing with Melee. We tend to idolize the top players and say such false statements like “No one will ever be better than this player” or “This player is at the peak of performance/skill” and that’s nothing more than a self limiting belief that will only turn true if you continue to truly believe that. A few years from now there will be multiple people much better than Mango or PP are now, even if they’re included in that group. Ok, getting sidetracked here, I’m moving on :-P

So, thinking of Melee like a language, when you don’t know where the words end and begin in a language, you can’t even understand what someone is saying, you can’t communicate with them. This applies directly to Melee. When you haven’t consciously learned the situations that are happening as you play, you get that feeling of “blindness,” where you’re not in control and you can’t really improve because you can’t see it. The more situations you begin to recognize, the more conscious you become of them, and the more you can practice navigating in them and mastering your options in them. Then you can begin to automate your actions when those situations arise, and the more you do that, the more you develop that trademark beautiful fluidity that Melee is so known for.

Think of what I’m talking about as nothing more than breaking down the abstractness of the game. That’s why if you’re a lower level player watching videos, your mind is going to focus on WHAT the top players are doing. You think you understand it all, but you only understand as much as your mind allows you to see. When higher level players are watching videos, they’re seeing much more than you are, but even then they’re not seeing everything, and again, players of even higher level are seeing even more.

Now of course, your brain needs what’s called “reference experiences” to be able to truly understand those situations. When we are actually in the situation and paying conscious attention to it, and we experience it, then we develop a smidge of what it takes to begin to master it. After that, it’s just a matter of being in the situation over and over, consciously understanding that you’re in it and paying attention to it, and testing out different options. This is why technical execution is so important, it’s the equivalent of clarity or how well you pronounce the words of a language. If you’re learning how to tell someone in Spanish: “Let’s go to the store to get apples and other fruits,” even if you know the words individually, if you can’t pronounce them you can’t get your message across.

Same thing in Smash. Even if you know that when your opponent shields, by dash dancing faster it’s going to create a subconscious effect that causes them to go into panic mode and they will be more likely to dodge or roll instead as opposed to calmly letting go of their shield and working with the space they have, if you’re accidentally jumping while trying to DD fast it’s pointless, and you can’t master that situation effectively.

That’s why I get annoyed with people who, constantly during matches every time they make a tech error, they feel the urge to point it out. This is their ego basically saying to their opponent, “If I didn’t mess up this execution, I would have had you. I’m smarter than you but I messed up, so DON’T GO THINKING YOU’RE BETTER THAN ME.”

Guess what kid, the fact that you messed up means I AM better than you, so go home, sit your sorry you know what down, and drill it into your mind and your muscle memory until you’re so sick of it you want to puke. Then wake up again tomorrow and do the same thing, until you can play against the best player in the world and not mess up your executions.

That’s why tech skill is limitless. Even if you CAN execute, you most likely won’t to your potential because of the pressure and nerves you feel, and it’s all subconscious. In fact, hearing the very name of the player you’re playing against being called on the loud speaker triggers a physiological change in your body and muscles based on your perception of how good that player is, and when your muscles nervously tense up and they’re not loose, your fingers can’t execute properly, and this creates the phenomenon that most players call “I can’t play good in tournaments wahhhh” but what’s really known as UNDERPERFORMING. Notice why Mango and Armada almost never play bad, because in their minds they are the best and no one can come close, so they almost always play to their full potential. I mean, even they have off days, but that’s much, much rarer than most other players.

This is a very under explored part of Melee, is the emotional/psychological part of the game. There’s physical, which is your execution, there is mental which is what some people call mindgames, and then there’s your emotional state, which to every top athlete is just as equal, if not more than the first two, but because most people who play Melee competitively see it as just a video game, they never delve into this aspect of being able to control your thoughts and emotions, which is silly because it’s a skill (one of the only you develop by playing Melee) that translates to real life. It’s also why Jman and Lucky underperform so much, and you see when they’re playing good that they’re better than most people can imagine.

This brings up an interesting little dynamic. Notice how Jman’s playstyle has developed to be consistent even when he’s playing bad? His laser game and basic combos make it so he doesn’t have to be on all the time to place top 5 at a tournament, while Lucky’s risky aggressiveness sometimes causes him to lose to players that he would beat at his maximum potential.

Now look at Mango who just almost never loses. What’s the difference? Sure there are playstyle differences that make him better than both, but when looking at performance, it’s alllll mental.

Wow I got distracted. Where was I…

So, when trying to improve, I have adopted the philosophy of playing to learn, not to win. If you’re playing to win you become blinded to situations you haven’t yet realized exist, because you’re too focused on outplaying your opponent. Look, maybe some people who always play to win have developed a system of learning at the same time- for me personally, it doesn’t work like that, which is why I recommend not caring so much about winning in friendlies.

Also, ironically enough, when you don’t care about winning, (a concept in Psychology known as FREEDOM OF OUTCOME) the opposite happens when you’re nervous. Your muscles become loose and you can execute to your potential. Floyd Mayweather Jr., the greatest boxer of all time, is known to be super relaxed and loose all throughout his match. He’s conditioned his muscles to actually relax when he’s throwing punches. This is a result of his training methods, his physical combined with his emotional. So when most people are train to increase stamina, that creates a frame of mind and body where the more punches you throw, the more tired you get. Now switch back to Floydy boy. As the match goes on, he becomes more and more relaxed, without losing any of his force or destructiveness.

This doesn’t apply absolutely directly to Melee because we don’t get physically fatigued from playing, but the looseness of our fingers does play a ridiculously important role. That’s why it kinda sucks at tournaments where you have to sit down and play against someone, and you only get one chance to win and then you’re out, when at least for me personally, it takes 5-10 matches against a high level player to really feel comfortable and loose.

So, this post was more scattered than I intended, mainly because I didn’t plan it out and I wrote it all of the top of my head, but I’ve been writing for a while and I think it’s enough information for people to absorb for now anyways. So now I’m going to go eat. One last thing though.

If you don’t agree with what I’m saying that’s cool, feel free to share your opinions, I’m always open to new ideas, but don’t come in and try to trash the ideas. I’ve traveled a decent amount, have spent a ridiculous amount of time analyzing and testing, so unless you actually know what’s up about this kind of material on a very deep level, it’s admittedly going to be hard for me to respect your opinion. Yes, that may sound elitist, but I never asked anyone to like me haha.

OH, ALSO, if anyone from Tristate can house me or pick me up from the Greyhound station closest to the venue for ZENITH, PLEASE let me know via Private Message. Otherwise, I’m getting a hotel by myself so if anyone is interested in that let me know as well, because I’m not missing this tournament.

PEACE people
 
D

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you're so ADHD it hurts sometimes. talking to you is like an out of body experience.
 

CloneHat

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
2,131
Location
Montreal, Quebec
There were some interesting points in there, but I don't get what message you're trying to push. Sometimes, point form can be more effective.

On a side note, I actually never experienced "blindness" or lots of confusion in my play, probably because I didn't start playing the game until I was in my teens, and have always played with a competitive mindset. I played Brawl casually, but when I wanted to get competitive, I switched to Melee.
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
4,126
Location
Rochester, NY
Clonehat- Well I need to get better at writing more organized in general, so this will help me work on that.

But what I'm trying to say is, unless you're an amazing player, you ARE playing in blindness, you're just...blind to it, haha. I play in partial blindness when I play people who are better than me too, so I'm not trying to be discouraging or anything.

The only way to not play in blindness would be if you understand every single thing that's happening, why it's happening, but you're just too lazy to do the work to capitalize, and I haven't seen one example of that ever happening.

I think Mango's rise to the top was due to his ability to see situations instantly, at a ridiculous rate, and then from there he just learned how to master them and capitalize.

But do you see what I mean when I say "blindness?" That's just a word I use for not understanding the dynamics of situations, and since there's so many it makes sense why we wouldn't immediately recognize them
 
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text me, i got a new phone and i don't have your number. let's work out plans to go to NJ.

had to sign off aim, etc.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Not bad, Jesse. =)

Always a pleasure to read your thoughts, even if they are kinda hard to follow along with at times haha. XD
 

_Rocky_

Smash Ace
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Jun 14, 2009
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Just skimmed through it but I want to add that I think it's often more important to just play for the sake of the match itself, not learning or winning. Those 2 concepts can make you delusional and create subconscious ideas of losing or failing while just playing for the heck of it is something completely different. ;)

The fight is all!

Edit: Also VERY well said about not helping people improve. While it helps some people to a certain degree, it's your own strength that brings you to the top.

Have you watched Kaiji/Akagi btw? I think those animes analyze this stuff really well.
 

0Room

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
1,953
Location
Boone, NC
I wanted to say two things real quick. I haven't read the whole thing, but I wanted to say that so far you're doing the same thing I did in Boone, as far as conceptually understanding the game since you can't internalize it.

Anyway 1)
Just skimmed through it but I want to add that I think it's often more important to just play for the sake of the match itself, not learning or winning. Those 2 concepts can make you delusional and create subconscious ideas of losing or failing while just playing for the heck of it is something completely different. ;)
This

2)
I would rather you bold the things that are important for you to have us understand as opposed to capitalize everything.

Hey guys this is a lot easier to read

as opposed to
HEY GUYS THIS IS A LOT EASIER TO READ
 

JesiahTEG

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Rocky- Thanks man. When you say playing for the sake of the match itself, that's actually an eastern philosophical concept called being present, or being in the moment, again, correlating to freedom of outcome- (Which I actually went over in the article but since you skimmed it it might have gotten skipped, haha)

0room- Stuff always sticks out to me when its capitalized, but if bold is better than i can do that. Both? Haha, too intense prolly :)

Shdwphnx- awesome dude- actually apply it to your game instead of just reading it though. that's what it's for haha
 

Max?

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It was so much fun, I was just hoping you would make it out since I wanted to play with you more. Next time tho!!!
 

B-Rod Z

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I really enjoyed reading this. I'm a new player so I go through a lot of the things you talk about and I'm sure when I start going to tourneys and playing more people this will help with my mindset. Thanks for the good read.
 

MasterShake

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Anyways, this results in a low concentration of really really motivated high level players, and then there’s the masses. The people that don’t go to another game lurk around on Smashboards, getting sucked in to the online community and the ease with which they can “gain respect” and prove themselves. I personally think seeking out knowledge online and talking with other players is healthy, to an extent. You do learn, yes, but you also limit yourself and even brainwash yourself into NOT IMPROVING. You get comfortable with the knowledge you have, the people you know and the friends you’ve made in your social threads, etc.

Then there’s the battlefield, the all intimidating environment of a tournament. This is where your emotions are tested, and for that reason is also why many players either stay away from tournaments and come up with every excuse not to attend them, or why they don’t put their all into improving. When you get trashed by a player that’s better than you, or a player who you THINK you should have beaten, (Haven’t we all said that at one point? I “should” have beaten him, but I didn’t because of this reason...very common phrase heard when talking to players of all levels) it’s so much easier to get upset, go home and do everything in the world besides actually get better.
Nail on the ****ing head.

Will continue to read.
 

Tres

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Tampa, FL
Noice! Great read, even though it's sort of a spray of ideas. lol I can really relate to this, seeing as I get 4-stocked relentlessly by my friends (I never stop playing though, which I guess is a unique plus). This also played a role in my decision to main the ICs: with their limitless options and absolute NEED to be unpredictable for the sake of opposing DI, you need to constantly be analytical of the situation and always expanding your vocabulary, coming up with new ideas.

I feel the "blindness" fading as I've been playing more lately, though... I think I'm becoming more conscious of the options I have, cuz I'm not getting demolished nearly as horribly. (YUSSS!)
 

darkoblivion12

Smash Lord
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Good job with this post.

I understand what you're talking about with blindness. Often times when you're playing against someone who is a lot better than you, you can't catch everything that is happening, nor do you have a good chance to react. It's at this point that 3/4 stocks happen.

Also since I've been going to a ton of tristate tournies, it has forced me to learn more, instead of relying on crappy tactics.

But no one wants to read about me lol. Good post though jesse.
 

Sinji

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I like this thread cause we talk about playing better players.
Whenever I play better players I try to play patient and campy. You can learn the situation and adapt quickly.
 

JesiahTEG

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It was so much fun, I was just hoping you would make it out since I wanted to play with you more. Next time tho!!!
Yeah man, actually my only encounter with TFS (besides Tuna) has actually led to several different mindset shifts for me.

The first one happened a few minutes after I left that tourney. I realized I let my weak emotions and pain of losing let me waste you guys' time by not playing you more and giving you what you came out for. That was crappy of me.

Then when I played Nintendude in tourney and he won, I wanted to play many more friendlies with him, but instead he went and played N64. I was upset of course, but not really upset because everyone makes their own decisions. (As opposed to you calling me a little ***** and dissing me for getting upset and leaving, which I'm only telling you this coming from honesty, I don't think it's the right thing to do, but your words did hold truth nonetheless) I didn't make Nintendude feel like crap for it like you tried to do to me, but I def felt the pain of someone not playing me longer when that's what I was there for, and I thought about you man and I was like...Hah, Max was even more right than I thought. So again dude, sorry about that.

The next was a few weeks ago when I realized that I sometimes don't seek out and MM the best players because I'm nervous that I won't play good, when really you have to push through the nervousness to even stand a chance. I should have been playing you and Niko over and over as much as I could, and I would do that now in a heartbeat man, you have no idea. That's why that tourney at Troy was so huge for me, the loss taught me so much.

And I was so nervous playing you man, I'm not gonna lie your trashtalk online DID get to me and my hands were shaking when we were playing. I mean, who wants to lose to someone that's constantly calling them trash online LOL but that's what I want. I want as many people to diss me as possible, so I can push through that and the nervousness, so keep it up I guess LOL

All in all man can't wait to play you again

I really enjoyed reading this. I'm a new player so I go through a lot of the things you talk about and I'm sure when I start going to tourneys and playing more people this will help with my mindset. Thanks for the good read.
YES dude, seriously, apply it. There are players better than me definitely, but at the very least, this is what I use, so I know and believe it can get you to my level at least. From there I guess I'll release new content as I get better, and that's when I can say it will get you to an even higher level. Trust me dude, the most addicting feeling of Smash is seeing your tourney results go up.

Noice! Great read, even though it's sort of a spray of ideas. lol I can really relate to this, seeing as I get 4-stocked relentlessly by my friends (I never stop playing though, which I guess is a unique plus). This also played a role in my decision to main the ICs: with their limitless options and absolute NEED to be unpredictable for the sake of opposing DI, you need to constantly be analytical of the situation and always expanding your vocabulary, coming up with new ideas.

I feel the "blindness" fading as I've been playing more lately, though... I think I'm becoming more conscious of the options I have, cuz I'm not getting demolished nearly as horribly. (YUSSS!)
Good stuff dude, just keep pushing away and never stop playing. That's the dumbest thing you can do (as you can see from my post to OTG err, Max?)

Good job with this post.

I understand what you're talking about with blindness. Often times when you're playing against someone who is a lot better than you, you can't catch everything that is happening, nor do you have a good chance to react. It's at this point that 3/4 stocks happen.

Also since I've been going to a ton of tristate tournies, it has forced me to learn more, instead of relying on crappy tactics.

But no one wants to read about me lol. Good post though jesse.
Yeah, lower level players get no props dude, but that's the way the community works, and it should motivate you as much as possible. I actually have a lot of respect for you that you can go to Tristate tournies against really good players, play Roy and STILL be playing the game, not getting demotivated. I want to play more to train you as best as I can cuz that's some high level integrity right there

I like this thread cause we talk about playing better players.
Whenever I play better players I try to play patient and campy. You can learn the situation and adapt quickly.
If that works for you dude, go for it. Do whatever you can. I'm confident in my advice, but that doesn't mean I want ANYONE to follow it blindly. Even if the best player posted advice/theories/concepts or whatever, I'll always question it, and everyone else should too. It's called thinking for yourself, a skill that is rare in Melee nowadays
 

ERayz

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Lachute, QC
Nice read, it actually confirms what I was thinking about recently and more. I will definitely focus on understanding what I do and why I do it, instead of just trying to shield pressure/combo people.

I've been playing for a few years now, and I only realised that I didn't have a good understanding of the game before late 2010.

Knowing that I don't understand much of what's going on doesn't help much. I (and probably a lot of other players too) need some practical advices on how to be aware of every situation. I know playing "blindly" prevents me from improving, and I tried to override this by having amazing tech skills (which I have now), but only to realize it doesn't change much about how bad I get ***** by the best players in my area.

So for now I am stuck with playing "blindly", but trying hard to get through this, by asking better players what I'm doing wrong. This helps me being aware of more and more specific situations. But understanding these situations is helpless when playing different players (like what happened when I first played out of my province at Gaming Ottawa), since they won't put me in the same situations. I believe understanding what happens, at soon as it happens is more important, in order to have more success.

What I think now (after reading your posts), in order to become a top player, we need (in no specific order):
Confidence, consistent awareness of EVERY situation, good (more like insane) reaction speed, wide match-up knowledge, flawless execution skills and a good controller + no johns.
 

JesiahTEG

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Ezrayz- keep pushin man. The best way I have found to consciously recognize more and more situations is to NOT focus on winning. Just don't care. As soon as you get hit from neutral position, just stop and ask yourself, what happened? What position was I in? If you were dash dancing as Marth, that's the beginning of the situation. Next time you're Dash Dancing just focus on waiting for your opponent to hit you.

Normally when you're DD'ing as Marth you're blindly trying to DD grab him, and you will keep getting hit by that nair if you're not focused on it. So stop trying to DD grab, and just wait and watch. Then he hits you, then you realize, "Oh, he knows I'm dash dancing away, so he's chasing me extra far with his nair.

Then you start to bait it and out of your dash dance, maybe you'll Fair on reaction when you see him coming. And that's when it "clicks," when you use something you've come up with, after observing, and that's when you feel good, and that's when the mindgames begin.

That's the best I can describe it
 

MTKO

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Joined
Feb 18, 2008
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Hampden, Maine
Ezrayz- keep pushin man. The best way I have found to consciously recognize more and more situations is to NOT focus on winning. Just don't care. As soon as you get hit from neutral position, just stop and ask yourself, what happened? What position was I in? If you were dash dancing as Marth, that's the beginning of the situation. Next time you're Dash Dancing just focus on waiting for your opponent to hit you.

Normally when you're DD'ing as Marth you're blindly trying to DD grab him, and you will keep getting hit by that nair if you're not focused on it. So stop trying to DD grab, and just wait and watch. Then he hits you, then you realize, "Oh, he knows I'm dash dancing away, so he's chasing me extra far with his nair.

Then you start to bait it and out of your dash dance, maybe you'll Fair on reaction when you see him coming. And that's when it "clicks," when you use something you've come up with, after observing, and that's when you feel good, and that's when the mindgames begin.

That's the best I can describe it
I've been playing this game on and off for quite a long time, but only very recently have I come to understand how observation works int his game. And now I'm finally learning how mind games stem from the observations I make. I'm not just guessing and playing on reaction anymore. And it definitely is a good feeling when you're able to pull off something (no matter how big or small) after making observations. I'm still really bad at this and most of the match I do play solely off of reaction and habits I have, but I'm slowly getting batter at this part of the game.

The whole article was a really good read overall and I think it's going to do a lot to help me improve. I've noticed a great improvement in my game play after reading a lot of this type of stuff over the last few months and actively applying what I read in my games. So I really look forward to reading any other similar material you post.
 

TheCrimsonBlur

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What a great post. The Spanish and DBZ analogies were spot on. We share a lot of the same ideas.

Overall, I think this is how we as a community should approach helping people get better. Being too specific, or describing and detailing reactions to situations (ex: character guides) cheapens the learning process and causes too many robotic, similar playstyles in the community.
 

JesiahTEG

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That's awesome, that's kinda what I wanted, feedback and it looks good so far. Keep in mind, as I get better and improve, if I find anything wrong with these concepts, because they are subject to change keep in mind, out of complete honesty I'll be coming back to the threads and changing them

@ CB- yeah, people get wayyyyyyy too caught up with the technical knowledge of the game, and it really holds them back. I admit I need to know more about that part of the game, but at the same time I personally feel it's pretty insignificant compared to other aspects.

I think Smashboards generally drives people to become "knowledge junkies" where basically they love learning about frames and hitboxes and whatnot because it makes them feel smart, and they get comfortable just learning knowledge. It's easier to memorize something than it is to apply it, but application is where it's at haha
 

darkoblivion12

Smash Lord
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Yeah, lower level players get no props dude, but that's the way the community works, and it should motivate you as much as possible. I actually have a lot of respect for you that you can go to Tristate tournies against really good players, play Roy and STILL be playing the game, not getting demotivated. I want to play more to train you as best as I can cuz that's some high level integrity right there
Well, I'll probably be up in rochester the week after zenith if you want to play.

Also, you need to teach me more fox/shiek matchup cuz that **** is hard.
 

Max?

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lol thanks Jesse. I didn't mean to come of so abrasive, it's just my nature on the boards. We'll def play a ton the next time we're both around.
 

Dark Hart

Rejected by Azua
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I think I'm going to read this post once a day and think about it for a while, then try and apply it to myself.

I've been playing this game for too long to not be top 10 in NC, but I"m gonna break that threshold this summer...

it's on
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
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Mos Eisley
Theres too much in that post to respond to so i'll just say a few things:

- I'm not sure what your overall thesis is, or if there is one. I took it to be a scattering of thoughts. But there are a variety very good thoughts. There are also a few underdeveloped thoughts which are kinda shortsighted and fail to address of multiple sides of the issue.
- I really liked the spanish analogy.
- I think a big thing you were pressing at the whole time but didn't really hit was the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Especially when you're talking about blindness I think. Its a very interesting theory which has changed my outlook on almost everything in my life. Figured you'd be interested.
 

Nintendude

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Then when I played Nintendude in tourney and he won, I wanted to play many more friendlies with him, but instead he went and played N64. I was upset of course, but not really upset because everyone makes their own decisions. (As opposed to you calling me a little ***** and dissing me for getting upset and leaving, which I'm only telling you this coming from honesty, I don't think it's the right thing to do, but your words did hold truth nonetheless) I didn't make Nintendude feel like crap for it like you tried to do to me, but I def felt the pain of someone not playing me longer when that's what I was there for, and I thought about you man and I was like...Hah, Max was even more right than I thought. So again dude, sorry about that.
I didn't know that you were bothered by that, sorry! I actually did want to play you more but I needed to make sure I wouldn't have any trouble winning the N64 tournament, and also Hamburglar, who drove us all there, went primarily so he could play N64 and I felt bad that he had barely played any up to that point. I was looking to play you afterwards but you were nowhere to be found until we had to go.
 
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I was looking to play you afterwards but you were nowhere to be found until we had to go.
Jesse has a way of disappearing when you're looking for him say to play smash or to visit or to carpool to a tournament several hundred miles away that he asked you for a ride to in the first place.
 

0Room

Smash Lord
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Aug 21, 2008
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Boone, NC
Just finished it.
I'm basically doing everything you were doing at the time. Everything you said is something that I agree with and think about.

I was just wondering though, what character do you play?
 

Hermit=D

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 16, 2011
Messages
75
read it all, Diamonds?

Very good, must of taken you a while.

I understand your concept of blindness very well, my smash is relatively weak at the moment. When i vs my area's top players I just don't know what's happening.
 
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