UPDATED: UNITED WE BRAWL / Ideas for new smasher titles: HARDCORE SMASHERS

[Danon]

PLEASE READ THE UPDATE

The Terms

The way these boards have decided to use the terms are as follows:

Casual Players= Players who use items, don't play/like tournament rules, or don't use advanced techs.

Competitive Players= Players who hate items, only play on FD, and use advanced techniques.


These terms are WRONG, and they carry NEGATIVE stigmas that cause friction between the two groups. They are not even true as the many "competitive" players love items, and several "casual" players are fine with tournament rules.

The thing to keep in mind is that : Everyone here is a competitve player.

Lets analyze the community because there are actually THREE groups, not two.

First Group=The players who go to tournaments, and play brawl for money. These are the players who master advanced techniques not only because they heighten the tension in a match, but also because it can help them WIN MONEY. They also don't like items because it can hinder them from WINNING MONEY. Some don't even like the tournament rules but play because they want to...you guessed it...WIN MONEY.

Second Group= The players who don't/can't go to tournaments either because they don't have any in their area, can't afford it, or don't feel comfortable with the tournament setting/players (Not all tourneys are lovable places, I've been to a few where people are *******es and the area is crappy). These guys are usally indifferent about advanced techs. Some use them, some don't, each for their own reasons. Same with Items. They don't HAVE to learn them (tech) or HAVE to play without them (items), so their choices are personal.

Now theres the third group.
Third Group= The ACTUAL casual players. The people who have like one console, play Wii Sports once a week, have never even heard of advanced tech, and always play with items because they don't know how to turn them off. Let's face it....NO ONE OF THIS GROUP IS PART OF THIS, OR ANY OTHER, SMASH FORUM.


Reasons for Hostility between the First and Second Group

The real reasons members of the second group dislike being called casual, is because it is demeaning. "How dare they?!" they think. "Do they think that because I like items or can't go to tournaments I am NOT competitive?" This is true. Winning with items can be just as difficult and competitive as playing without them, its just more unpredictable and risky (which, oddly enough, are the factors that make certain games like Poker and Slots competitive in the first place).

Herein lies the origin of the hostility. Members of the first group may use the term "casual" without any intention of being insulting, yet still come off to the members of the second as "elitist" or having a "high-and-mighty" attitude. The second group attacks back, and the "competitve" player obviously fights back.


The Resolution

Now with Brawl's beginning at our feet, we, the Community of Smash World Forums, must make an example to the Smash Community by merging these two groups together. We have to UNITE, not DIVIDE. With online play a huge new feature, Tournaments could possibly become even more popular than ever, or can decrease in membership drastically, because if the Community alienates newcomers, why would potential players compete in tournaments when they can Brawl online, and enjoy a similar experience.

I admit, I would have never joined the Tournament scene if Melee had online play. (South Alabama had a horrible Smash Tournament Scene, so I quickly left it)

There are obviously two types of Competitive Smashers: The Tournament Player and the NonTournament Player. Now we need to designate proper terms for them rather than "casual" or "competitive" Because Remember

WE ARE ALL SMASHERS


EDIT:

Ok, so I've reviewed the sentiments. I expected some of the replies I got, and some I did NOT expect.


As I have tried to explain (unsuccessfully to some) is that NO Smasher who plays to win, is increadibly skilled in the game, and devotes hours upon hours of play and hours of enjoyment should be called "casual." Be they ones who compete in tournaments or not.

Also I am completely aware that everyone is an individual and has their own personal choice. Also I am aware that individuals can move within each of these groups which causes a lot of blurring. I consider these "labels" as a way to identify with other Preferred Player Types

The Gaming Industry (specifically Nintendo) has a defined the "casual" player as the target audience for titles like Wii Sports and Wii Fit. The term "casual" may have fit non-tournament players in Melee, a game that had no online play but had an increadible multiplayer and the only way for people to prove that they are skilled at the game is to go to a tournament, (also a game that came out before the "Casual Market" was even discovered.) BUT as the industry has changed the definition of casual, so should its application for those who Smash.

NOTES ON THE TOURNAMENT PLAYERS
I do not in any way dislike the tourny crowd. Now that I live in a Smash-Filled Community (My former residence had no community), I hope to join in on a few Tournaments.
But you shouldn't be the only ones called "competitive." This is not an attack on Tournament Rules, or differences in ideology. In my original statement I realize that I didn't stress the point that "Competitive" Smashers deserve a new title as well.

Notes on CASUAL PLAYERS
First of all. I'm sorry to those of you who are truly Casual players. I didn't mean to alienate you. I just wanted to make sure that you were not grouped in with people who don't consider themselves such. Also, I honestly didn't expect many Casual Players to devote as much time into a title to join a Forum. But I am glad that I was wrong as it proves how Mainstream the industry has become.

IDEA

As BRAWL is the most anticipated AAA title in the Gaming Industry I suggest we...restructure our "labels" (I didn't say labels were bad, just the "casual/competitive"

Here's an IdeaFor the New Titles

CASUAL PLAYERS
The True Casual players

HARDCORE PLAYERS
The Competitive Players who Can't/Won't adhere to Tournament Rules

PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS
The Players who devote the time to compete in Money-@-Stakes Tournaments


These are just ideas. Brainstorms....What do you think?

 

[RedMage8BT]

Competitive players are people who most often play competitively.

Casual players are people who most often play casually.

It's not that hard.

 

[staindgrey]

Bravo. Couldn't have said it better myself.

...or else I would have...

 

[staindgrey]

Competitive players are people who most often play competitively.

Casual players are people who most often play casually.

It's not that hard.

Did you not read what he said? The problem is people who play with items and don't win money at tournaments can still play competitively. I find it hard to have fun when I lose. I always play to win. But because I don't master glitches to win money, does that make me a casual gamer?

What he just said is if we're on a forum discussing this game, OBVIOUSLY not one of us is a casual gamer. Casual gamers don't argue or analyze this stuff on a message board.

We are all hxc. lol

 

[Layupfreak]

Competitive players are people who most often play competitively.

Casual players are people who most often play casually.

It's not that hard.

 

[OrlanduEX]

The terms "competitive" and "casual" may have their inaccuracies, but they have been widely accepted to describe two very different and opposed schools of thought when it comes to playing Smash Bros. Changing the words we use to refer to these particular types of players won't change the fact that their gaming philosophies are different and at times in conflict.

We all simply need to agree to disagree. If you don't like to play with items or wacky stages and you appreciate advanced techs that's fine and understandable. If you do like items/all stages that's also good.

Just don't tell other people how the game "should" be played.

 

[Kirye]

Who cares?

God, why are people so picky about names and titles.

Casual, competitive? Neither of them are demeaning or mean anything, that's just how we like to say things. I play melee competitively, so i'm most likely considered competitive. Big whoop.

 

[montyalbo]

I agree with Dannon

 

[Yuna]

Why can't we label people? I'm not ashamed to say I'm but a casual Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike player. I feel no need to be great at all the games I've ever played.

Competitive = One who plays to win, tries to find the best ways to do this, go to tournaments and try to improve to win more
Casual = Plays just "for fun" (doesn't imply Competitives don't) and don't care about tourneys and the likes

Being one does not inherently make you better person than the other. But it's an important skill distinction.

 

[Ojanya]

I admire that you're trying to be intellegent and break up all the flaming, but it will stop soon enough.

I loled at the only playing on final destination. My friend only plays there, and then I kick his *** when I use falcon on any platform course.

 

[Danon]

Competitive players are people who most often play competitively.

Casual players are people who most often play casually.

It's not that hard.

Not the point.

The point is that There are NO REAL CASUAL players here.
The point is NonTournament Players=/=Casual Players.

And NonTournament Players feel insulted being called "casual" especially since the term "Casual" has changed dramatically since the induction of the Wii.

Take a guy, a gamer, who owns all three next-gen consoles. Plays Halo, Soul Caliber, Melee, and other AAA titles like crazy, BUT they DON'T go to Tournaments. Does this make them "casual"? By all means no. They are far from a Casual player, and are usally insulted when someone calles them such.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

I think that uniting people who clearly have different interests and preferences is fundalmentally a flawed pursuit. If two groups do not enjoy the same gameplay experience, why try to bring them together? We can respect the other side's views without have to play together. Traditional tournament rules are not for everyone. And besides, there's no rule that you can't organize your own tournaments if there's something you don't like about the currently existing ones.

On your other point, I don't really feel that traditional tournament styles rules alienate newcomers any more than say, joining a football team (or some other sport/competition) would. It's all about your attitude towards it. Rarely do newcomers to the tournament scene stir up trouble unless they come in thinking that they are the best and that everyone must conform to their rules.

 

[staindgrey]

Well, Danon, at least I get what you're saying... And I totally agree. It's kinda sad that I get aggravated being called "casual" simply because I like playing with items on every stage possible; they're in the game, aren't they? Play the game.

But, those are the words used, and there IS a difference. My point is simply that this thread doesn't do anything against deaf ears. Ah, well. Maybe I'll try and go "pro". All I have to do is drop out of college and live in my parents' basement until I outgrow the dream.

 

[Dark Sonic]

No, we're not all competative smashers.

Competative normally implies actually competing. As in, going to tournaments.

Casuals are anyone who doesn't actually go to tournaments.

I don't say this to sound mean, I say this because that's kinda the definition.
However, that doesn't make one group better than the other, just different. People can freely move between groups, and often do. All competative smashers were at one point casual smashers. They moved to the other group by choice. Likewise, many competative smashers retire, and become casual smashers by choice again.

These two groups are obviously there and are true, but the stereotypes pertaining to each group is often false. A casual is not defined by whether or not they use advance techs, but by their mindset towards competative play.

Competative players also don't just play to win money, as you have stated. In fact, the money is just a reward for what competative players really wanted. Being the best. Competative players want a controlled environment in which to test their skill, based on skill alone.

Like RedMage8BT so aptly put it. Competative players play competatively. Casual players play casually. The only thing that will change about this is how willing each side is to intermingle and accept each others views, or even change sides.

 

[Hitzel]

Casual and competitive are terms that categorize players in all games, not just Smash Bros. People enjoy playing in different ways.

In general, casual players play for fun, and competitive players have fun playing to win. Like it or not, the stereotypes reflect that.

 

[UsernameLink]

There are 4 groups

First the normal good section who understand both views
Casual = playing for fun
Competitive = plays to win, does anything legal, go to tournaments

Then there are...

Casual idiots = People who call people who go to tournaments and play torney rules, torney ***s. Also complaining about people wanted to use advantages found so they can stay up to date and win
Competitive Idiots = People who think all casuals are idiots who flame and that they should be banned from SWF. While also thinking they are rubbish at smash and dont learn AT's because they arnt good enough

The last 2 should just shut up and see both views

 

[GhostAnime]

they're just descriptive terms. anybody that finds them insulting even if they play both ways is just extremely sensitive.

obviously there are exceptions. so just create a new name. the end.

otherwise, they fight because of playstyles, not what they're called descriptively by each other

 

[Danon]

The terms "competitive" and "casual" may have their inaccuracies, but they have been widely accepted to describe two very different and opposed schools of thought when it comes to playing Smash Bros. Changing the words we use to refer to these particular types of players won't change the fact that their gaming philosophies are different and at times in conflict.

We all simply need to agree to disagree. If you don't like to play with items or wacky stages and you appreciate advanced techs that's fine and understandable. If you do like items/all stages that's also good.

Just don't tell other people how the game "should" be played.

I would agree, but with the advent of the Wii and the rise of the "Casual" Market, the terms are no longer suitable to describe the two schools of thought.

We've all seen the huge influx of Board members since the launch of Brawl.
When the game is released, the numbers are going to be larger than they have ever been in the history of Smash Boards.

I'm proposing, not a change in philosophy, but a regulation change.

This goes out to the creators of Smash Boards as well as the community in general.

 

[staindgrey]

There are 4 groups

First the normal good section who understand both views
Casual = playing for fun
Competitive = plays to win, does anything legal, go to tournaments

Then there are...

Casual idiots = People who call people who go to tournaments and play torney rules, torney ***s. Also complaining about people wanted to use advantages found so they can stay up to date and win
Competitive Idiots = People who think all casuals are idiots who flame and that they should be banned from SWF. While also thinking they are rubbish at smash and dont learn AT's because they arnt good enough

The last 2 should just shut up and see both views

*claps* Good work, m'lad.

 

[BananaNut]

Why can't we label people? I'm not ashamed to say I'm but a casual Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike player. I feel no need to be great at all the games I've ever played.

Competitive = One who plays to win, tries to find the best ways to do this, go to tournaments and try to improve to win more
Casual = Plays just "for fun" (doesn't imply Competitives don't) and don't care about tourneys and the likes

See, this is where the friction comes from. Casuals play to win, that's the point of the game really, but casuals don't/can't go to tounies. This doesn't mean that they don't practice to win more, and don't care about advanced techs.

Me, I'm indifferent. You don't really need to WD if Doc was *cough* Comeon sakuri! Add Doc. *cough* your main.

Being one does not inherently make you better person than the other. But it's an important skill distinction.

^^ The Truth^^

 

[DragonBlade]

It sounds like you really don't know what you are talking about. There are a lot of people who just go to tournaments for fun. The money would barely cover travel expenses in most cases. The groups you try to force people in are really worse than the two you mentioned at the beginning.

 

[NES n00b]

Casual is a slight misnomer as most here play games alot, but it is still the label that has to be used unless you guys want to be called nontourney goer or for some others scrub.

Sensitive people here.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Maybe I'll try and go "pro". All I have to do is drop out of college and live in my parents' basement until I outgrow the dream.

Pros don't spend that much time practicing (tournaments aren't included in this. I mean like staying at home and practicing). It's not that insulting to be called a competative player, but it is very insulting to be accused of having no life. A lot of competative smashers go to college, have jobs, and do everything that any other person does. In the time that someone else may spend watching TV, they might take a few minutes to practice instead. Then they go back to doing something else.

After you log in that initial bit of practice to learn advance techs, technical ability is no longer an issue. You practice for a few hours at the begining so that you can perform all the actions you'll need, then your done with tech skill for the most part. Now if you want to be frame perfect like M2K or SW, you may have more work cut out for you, but you really don't have to be frame perfect to be considered good.

 

[Yuna]

See, this is where the friction comes from. Casuals play to win, that's the point of the game really, but casuals don't/can't go to tounies. This doesn't mean that they don't practice to win more, and don't care about advanced techs.

Me, I'm indifferent. You don't really need to WD if Doc was *cough* Comeon sakuri! Add Doc. *cough* your main.

You don't actually have to go to major tournaments to be competitive. It's enough to just constantly play against other competitive people.

Competitives play to win on whole new level to casuals because casuals have most probably not been exposed to the level of play that Competitives have.

 

[Zevox]

Reasons for Hostility between the First and Second Group

The real reasons members of the second group dislike being called casual, is because it is demeaning. "How dare they?!" they think. "Do they think that because I like items or can't go to tournaments I am NOT competitive?"

I would just like to point out, as a member of that "second group," that this is certainly not necessarily true. At all. Personally, I have no problem whatsoever with being referred to as a casual player - I consider myself one, in fact. I'm not a competitive individual, and rarely focus on winning. I have no desire to be competitive. The only thing about the whole issue that annoys me is when a member(s) one group looks down on the other as somehow inferior, either explicitly or implicitly - and that goes for both types of players, not just tournament-goers. If that would stop, I suspect we'd see a major cessation in friction across the board.

Zevox

 

[PokemonLegacy]

I dont even KNOW what I am;
I hate items,
I'll play ANY rules,
Didnt know there were $$$ tourneys...,
Only recently began learning about wave dashing and l-cancels etc.

 

[staindgrey]

Sonic wave: That was sarcastic. I know it's hard to see in typing but I didn't actually think that "pro"s live in their parents' basements. I've met some here on campus and they're really cool people. I just had to throw in a cheap shot there for the fun of it O:-)

 

[DraginHikari]

The issue I've always had with the labels in particular is the fact that I've gotten nearly a dozen different believes on how the grounds are seperated... I've never gotten what appears to be a universal view.

 

[ArgentStew]

I think it's more or less natural for people to put labels on each other, and these categories/divisions should exist as long as it means no harm to the labelled individuals... However, I think a lot of people are missing the point in the difference between competitives and casuals... I have to believe that there are two things that differentiate the two groups...

One would be the way they think about the game... I don't mean "I think I'm competitive, so I must be competitive"... I mean the way you view playing the game... Do you view it more as a way to have fun? Do you view every game as if you have to win? Do you view eachgame as a time killer? Or do you view every game as a money match?

The other way is how you are viewed by the community... Face it... Those who attend tournaments know better how to tell the difference between a competitive and casual player... And those who attend and are known to do well at tournaments are known by everyone to be competitive... I can't think of a way to actually apply this to casual gamers/Smashers/potatoes, but tournaments do play a role in determining your competitive/casual status however minor or major you may believe it to be...

That's just my 2 cents... I don't feel like coming up with anymore points... :/

 

[BananaNut]

You don't actually have to go to major tournaments to be competitive. It's enough to just constantly play against other competitive people.

Competitives play to win on whole new level to casuals because casuals have most probably not been exposed to the level of play that Competitives have.

^^ More Truth^^ Listen to Yuna.


I probably lost what little competitive edge I had because I don't practice with my freinds often.

But when I get brawl and go wi-fi that will all change.

Back on topic:
Casual and Competitive IMO, arn't really demeaning titles,('Pros' and 'Noobs' are)
so besides from the already stated I don't see why people get upset..

 

[DstyCube]

I don't think in order to play competitively you have to go to tournaments. More or less, I would think of competitive players as people that play generally play by tournament rules. That would include playing on certain stages, and playing with no items. Playing competitively suggests that you are playing to win to place in a ranking system of some sort. The purpose of playing on tournament stages and playing with items off is to eliminate random factors from interfering with the match. What your left with is a way to more accurately measure a players 'skill'. There are many ways to play this game, but tournaments rules are just a way of standardizing matches, and it has been generally accepted by a majority of the smash community as a way to accurately measure a player's skill.

Playing casually to me means that you don't care who's better than who. You play because you enjoy the game. It doesn't matter on how you set up a game because you aren't trying to prove to the entire smash community that you are the best player out there. Saying that only competitive people "play to win" is kind of silly, because everyone who plays a game is trying to win.

I think the difference between casual and competitive, is that competitive people want to compare their skills to others that play competitively, thus objectively measuring who has more skill at the game. If people try to compare themselves to others without the same conditions, then it doesn't make for a very accurate results. I'd say a majority of the people on this board are indeed competitive. I haven't gone to a tournament mostly to the fact that there's hardly any where I am. My friends and I play with tournament rules because it's a standard that we all accept, and its a way to see who is more skilled, and I hope one day I can make it to a tournament so that I can see how good I am against other people outside of my group of friends.

I think that there's a huge misconception that 'casual' and 'competitive' are ways to label the skill of a player, and it's not. They describe a person's play style. If you want to label someone based by skill, you call them something like 'newb' or 'pro' lol.

In short I believe the reason behind labeling people as competitive and casual is that competitive players play by a standard that is widely accepted by smash community to measure the persons skill at the game. There's nothing wrong with labeling someone as competitive or casual, we all play the game however we want, and we should just accept that everyone else does the same thing and plays the game for their own reasons. Why should we deny the fact though that there are 2 major play styles? There's nothing wrong with being either a casual player or a competitive player.

Response to OP:

Reasons for Hostility between the First and Second Group

The real reasons members of the second group dislike being called casual, is because it is demeaning. "How dare they?!" they think. "Do they think that because I like items or can't go to tournaments I am NOT competitive?" This is true. Winning with items can be just as difficult and competitive as playing without them, its just more unpredictable and risky (which, oddly enough, are the factors that make certain games like Poker and Slots competitive in the first place).

I believe that you are correct that someone would be insulted if they said that they were competitive even if they do play with items. But I think it's rather arrogant of them to be offended. The term 'competitive' which people are labeled as on these boards, refers to people that are playing by the same rules as the majority of the smash community. And if they want to be labeled as 'competitive' they got to play by the rules that all 'competitive' players play by. If they don't want to, then they will indeed be labeled as 'casual', and I think it's their problem if they can't accept it. Again, 'competitive' and 'casual' in no way demean a person's skill, it's just that there is a standard that is accepted by the majority of the smash community. And there has to be a way to separate those who play by those standards and those who don't. Sorry if that offends anyone, but that's how I see it.

 

[Sandwich]

The fact there is a massive argument on an internet forum about some people being called something while others are called another thing is bad in the first place.

 

[mushroomedmario]

wow it's sad how close minded people are
the op gives an explanation of why no one here is casuals, and people totally ignore that and say "casual players don't go to tournaments"

...which is kinda lame

i know advanced techs, i play to win....... but i'd rather play against my friends than in a tournament.....i don't see how not going to tournaments labels me as casual

and i don't see how going to tournaments makes you competetive, as i'm sure there are people that go to tournaments that don't even know there's a world of wave dashers out there.....

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

Ive seen posts where people regard casuals as absolute idiots.

Its really annoying.

Seriously, you can't honestly call someone ont his board "casual" they are here for a reason, they know alot aboutt his game, and just because they dont play 20 hours a day, doesnt make them casual.

I consider myself a hardcore gamer. I don't use advanced techniques. That doesnt make me casual.

 

[iPsy]

Genius.

10 charcoals

 

[Moustachio]

I salute you Danon! I totally agree that competitives are way too negetive towards casuals, and vice verca. I mean, I'm an extremely competitive player in my oppinion. Just because I'm against "advance techniques", people call me a "noob" or a casual player. I mean, I've won like two Gamestop tournies (I know, it's not a huge deal), not to mention I have about 5,500 hours of gameplay on Mario alone. But still, even with these things, people still call me a "casual player" and I HATE it. There are just waaay too many people here who have a god-like mentality. It makes me sick, and that's why I almost never post.

 

[Hitzel]

wow it's sad how close minded people are
the op gives an explanation of why no one here is casuals, and people totally ignore that and say "casual players don't go to tournaments"

...which is kinda lame

i know advanced techs, i play to win....... but i'd rather play against my friends than in a tournament.....i don't see how not going to tournaments labels me as casual

It doesn't. In general, competitive and casual are terms that label mindsets, not players by any strict definition. That means you can be a competitive player and not go to tournaments; you just have fun playing to win and getting into the details of a game.

 

[Moustachio]

Yes, but the people who accuse players of being "casual" don't understand that! I mean, just look at like half of the discussions that is gameplay related to melee.

 

[Balloon]

I'm highly competitive and I don't play to win money.

Fail.

Here's the actual difference between competitive players and casual players:

Casual players play because they just want to be mindlessly entertained for a while until they find a new game that sounds more fun.

Competitive players play for the love of the game and to get better. We just simply love the game for various reasons and we will never abandon it (it being Melee, or Brawl once it's proven that it's actually a fairly good fighting game (good means skill based)).

 

[NES n00b]

If you are against advance techs you aren't really playing to win, you are trying to win with your weird mentally constructed ruleset for the game. Just play the **** game.

I didn't think casual or competitive were such buzz words, but who knows I am getting too old to keep up with you kids.