UPDATED: UNITED WE BRAWL / Ideas for new smasher titles: HARDCORE SMASHERS

[Revven]

Casuals are only competitive under their own group, never competitive in our group nor can they even be considered competitive because who is there to compete against in the world? If all the casuals are is just items with strategies in mind and no use of any ATs or any mindset of always wanting to win how could they be compared to people like myself or everyone else who on Smashboards plays competitively with no items on, always wants to win, and finds all the ways possible to win and improve?

The TC is right where the groups stand, but, by no means are we all on the same competitive network. The casuals are on their own wavelength where as the competitive people are on a different one (me being apart of this). The only thing I disagree with the TC on is that we're all competitive; by no means are we all competitive in Smash. The casuals don't always want to win, they just want to have fun and at the same time try to win. Hell, I don't even believe they practice much less play as much as competitors do.

As for myself, I fir under group two, the people who can't go to tournaments because there are never any in my area and because I can't fish out the money to go somewhere else for one. I'm competitive, but, I just can't go to tourneys.

Casuals are competitive in their own group, but, their ideology of competitive is different from ours and that's that.

P.S If I stereotyped anyone who feels offended by what I said, I apologize, I'm generalizing and if you're different from other casuals by all means express your hate towards what I'm saying. I apologize regardless if what I said has offended you.

 

[LaughterIsDeadly]

it's simple... this shouldn't even be an issue. You're a competitive player if you compete for any reason.. be it money matches, bragging rights or tournys. You're casual if you don't really care and just want to have a fun time messing about in game. just playing for fun rather than playing to win.

you are what you are. it's not even like you're born either one or the other. if you want to call your self a competitive smasher than just compete. it doesn't even mean you're good if you say you're competitive. ...just that you compete.

 

[Hitzel]

I'm highly competitive and I don't play to win money.

Fail.

Here's the actual difference between competitive players and casual players:

Casual players play because they just want to be mindlessly entertained for a while until they find a new game that sounds more fun.

Competitive players play for the love of the game and to get better. We just simply love the game for various reasons and we will never abandon it (it being Melee, or Brawl once it's proven that it's actually a fairly good fighting game (good means skill based)).

That's a little biased.

Competitive players have fun by playing to win. Casuals have fun for other reasons.

 

[LaughterIsDeadly]

yeah it's said rather offensively but what he's saying is right.

or rather he's projecting his reason as if it's everyone's lol

 

[Chaosblade77]

I would just like to point out, as a member of that "second group," that this is certainly not necessarily true. At all. Personally, I have no problem whatsoever with being referred to as a casual player - I consider myself one, in fact. I'm not a competitive individual, and rarely focus on winning. I have no desire to be competitive. The only thing about the whole issue that annoys me is when a member(s) one group looks down on the other as somehow inferior, either explicitly or implicitly - and that goes for both types of players, not just tournament-goers. If that would stop, I suspect we'd see a major cessation in friction across the board.

Zevox

Once again I completely agree with Zevox. I tend to do that fairly often. I don't really have much to add to that, it basically summed up what I was going to say (and is worded better).

 

[veil222]

I play enough genras and platforms of games that I consider myself a pro gamer, no matter what game I play. Some kid who'se never played contra, a speed run of mario 2, goldeneye, or wolfenstein for the atari jaguar would only make me laugh by calling me causal for playing with items, final smashes, or on poke floats from time to time.

Casual is a derrogatory term here, because most people regard themselves as pro here, and sadly some of them believe their style of play is somehow superior when both are just a means to have fun.

I'm gonna be a pro even if I'm playing with pichu against game and watch on big blue with nothing but motion sensor mines on high.

You've got to take the subject on an individual basis, blanket terms are wrong for almost anything they're used for.

 

[Foxy]

I'll begin with using myself as an example:

I've been playing Melee since release. It's likely my all-time favorite game, and I have been through all routes of casual fun. I've done very high-Poke'ball matches, I've set up Giant Melee with Super Mushrooms with DK and Bowser, and I've played Coin Mode excessively.

I didn't even have a tag until last summer, when I was forced to think of one while playing for the first time in an environment where I was facing foreign opponents. And yet, since then I have been extremely competitive. While I am restricted in many ways from going to tournaments, I'm getting into the scene. I wavedash plenty, I employ mindgames, I SHFFL; I have learned almost every AT. My extensive knowledge of the game through casual play over many years allowed me to progress through levels of tech-skill at lightning speed.

But enough about me. Here's my point:

There are not two types of smashers. There are, however, two ways of defining them.

1. Competitive (or any equivalent words)
2. Casual (or any equivalent words)
Being an idiot is a completely different issue and is a personal problem. It isn't really a category. People can and will be stupid.

So, not everyone falls into these categories. I play Melee to an extreme, and yet I haven't attended a tourney, for example.

There are an infinite amount of combinations. Those two definitions are not categories, but criteria. Everyone is a mix. I consider myself competitive, and yet I have many traits of a casual player.

 

[Balloon]

That's a little biased.

Competitive players have fun by playing to win. Casuals have fun for other reasons.

Yeah, it is a little biased, but I feel the bias has good cause. It's insulting to have casuals come in and tell us that we are playing the game wrong because our way isn't "fun". We spend way, way more time actually trying to improve rather than playing the same old matches over and over. And in that vein, a casual player can play way more than a competitive one and won't necessarily be better because they've played more. It's about what you practice and how you practice it if improving is your goal. When I put my time into practicing and improving and then get called a "tourney***" or am told that I'm doing it wrong, it's extremely irritating.

There's nothing more irritating than the recent event of tons of players simply coming to SWF due to Brawl's release and having no idea that SWF is mainly filled with players who have dedicated 5 or 6 years of their life to learning and improving in Melee.

 

[veil222]

Balloon, there's alot of "pros" doing the same thing right back. Yeah, this is a pro board, but if they're really pro shouldn't they already realize bashing someone for style of play, casual or pro, is pretty stupid? That's the point foxy made, this isn't about casuals bashing pros or the other way around, it's about stupid people being stupid and dragging everyone into it.

 

[J18]

this is a tad hypocritical.
i think you're right and all, but you're saying "stop the labels" and at the end you label.
it kinda nullifies your point.

 

[Karuvin]

I myself play competitively with my friend but with that i can only be so good, in that i disregard using the advanced techs that competitive players learn. Mainly i find it annoying and cheap, BUT i from time to time find myself using them on accident. I don't necessarily learn them but i know of them and happen to do so in the heat of the moment.

but i would agree casual can be insulting, but only if your using as a negative thing.

I am a casual player in that i don't play to compete all that much, and yes i have played the game 5+ years or however long its been out.

 

[SolidSonic]

I don't mind people calling me a casual gamer, even if it cares some kind of loopy negative connotation here.

I wasn't a "pro" at melee or 64, but with Brawl I plan on becoming the best I can. Simply joined this forum to talk about the game and learn things I wouldn't have normally learned. Might even go to a tournament or two, for the fun of it not the shot at money.

I think collectively, we can all agree to stop taking labels/terms so seriously. There doesn't have to be a casuals vs. pros vs. hoes war going on.

Lets all just eat our beans and calm down.

 

[yoshi_fan]

I agree with both danon y sonic wave

 

[Ridley22]

I agree. Nice post.

I'm with group 2

 

[veil222]

I can't stop my war.... my never ending struggle to find idiots and make them wear tin foil hats so we know who they are in public is a neccecary one. Other than the idiots, I don't care what a player is.

 

[LoGiKAeRiS]

the guy is right about the two groups I must say.. but

the casual player is a so bigger majority compared to competitive players

 

[oxyborb]

I'm a casual gamer, but, I love watching tournies.

I like timed mode with items and 4 players, and I also love 1 vs 1 4 stock no items
go figure

I usually play 1 vs 1 when I'm alone against a CP, with some items on for spice. I'm casual. I guess I'm more of a party player. Is that a sub group?

I'm party.

Oh, and I don't mind the label.

 

[iPsy]

Still agreed? K good.

 

[Ichida]

I play for both communal fun and glorious victory. I use items as much as possible, but until now, I've never used an advanced technique like wave dashing. I play with my friends and have fun even when I lose, but I make a point of participating in tournaments and am angered upon defeat. I'm fairly skilled, but have never won a tournament. I came here to change that; to better myself, and to rise the ranks!

I am a competitive player.

 

[M.K]

Good post! I agree, this labeling is starting to actually offend me. Yo, I'm part of the Second Group if anyone cares.

 

[Nasanieru]

POWER TO THE PEOPLE! ! !


As a competitive melee player I agree, although I do consider our style of play better/more fun, its getting pretty ridiculous. Threads everywhere there are constant flame wars between the groups, and the original intent of the thread is lost. Keep your ideas about how to play smash to yourself if it isn't related, for the good of everyone else. The community will benefit.

Nice thread ^ ~

 

[Danon]

Yeah, it is a little biased, but I feel the bias has good cause. It's insulting to have casuals come in and tell us that we are playing the game wrong because our way isn't "fun". We spend way, way more time actually trying to improve rather than playing the same old matches over and over. And in that vein, a casual player can play way more than a competitive one and won't necessarily be better because they've played more. It's about what you practice and how you practice it if improving is your goal. When I put my time into practicing and improving and then get called a "tourney***" or am told that I'm doing it wrong, it's extremely irritating.

There's nothing more irritating than the recent event of tons of players simply coming to SWF due to Brawl's release and having no idea that SWF is mainly filled with players who have dedicated 5 or 6 years of their life to learning and improving in Melee.

No one in this thread has stated any such thing. I even stated how such thoughts are unfouned and not helping the fact. SWF is going through a huge upheavel.

Now it is true that their has been a huge influx of players coming to SWF. But is that not the whole bloody POINT!

You spent 5-6 years improving in Melee. Good for you. But that doesn't help you at ALL when it comes to Brawl. Now you, me, the Melee tournament players, the Melee non-tournament players, and every other new player to Brawl are going to learn how to play a whole new game.

This isn't Melee World Forums. It's Smash World Forums. The Brawl Section is going to expand. It's what everyone expects and wants.

I know that their are some strong differences in opinion concerning items, stages, and rules. Like I said:

NonTournament Players =/= Casual Players

And Tournament Players aren't the be-all-end-all from competition. After coming to college I found a huge amount of players that really stepped up my game. These guys better than most of the so-called "pro" players I encountered in tournaments.

But the main point is that the term CASUAL is no longer a viable term for Smashers.

 

[tutata]

The Terms

The way these boards have decided to use the terms are as follows:

Casual Players= Players who use items, don't play/like tournament rules, or don't use advanced techs.

Competitive Players= Players who hate items, only play on FD, and use advanced techniques.


These terms are WRONG, and they carry NEGATIVE stigmas that cause friction between the two groups. They are not even true as the many "competitive" players love items, and several "casual" players are fine with tournament rules.

The thing to keep in mind is that : Everyone here is a competitve player.

Lets analyze the community because there are actually THREE groups, not two.

First Group=The players who go to tournaments, and play brawl for money. These are the players who master advanced techniques not only because they heighten the tension in a match, but also because it can help them WIN MONEY. They also don't like items because it can hinder them from WINNING MONEY. Some don't even like the tournament rules but play because they want to...you guessed it...WIN MONEY.

Second Group= The players who don't/can't go to tournaments either because they don't have any in their area, can't afford it, or don't feel comfortable with the tournament setting/players (Not all tourneys are lovable places, I've been to a few where people are *******es and the area is crappy). These guys are usally indifferent about advanced techs. Some use them, some don't, each for their own reasons. Same with Items. They don't HAVE to learn them (tech) or HAVE to play without them (items), so their choices are personal.

Now theres the third group.
Third Group= The ACTUAL casual players. The people who have like one console, play Wii Sports once a week, have never even heard of advanced tech, and always play with items because they don't know how to turn them off. Let's face it....NO ONE OF THIS GROUP IS PART OF THIS, OR ANY OTHER, SMASH FORUM.


Reasons for Hostility between the First and Second Group

The real reasons members of the second group dislike being called casual, is because it is demeaning. "How dare they?!" they think. "Do they think that because I like items or can't go to tournaments I am NOT competitive?" This is true. Winning with items can be just as difficult and competitive as playing without them, its just more unpredictable and risky (which, oddly enough, are the factors that make certain games like Poker and Slots competitive in the first place).

Herein lies the origin of the hostility. Members of the first group may use the term "casual" without any intention of being insulting, yet still come off to the members of the second as "elitist" or having a "high-and-mighty" attitude. The second group attacks back, and the "competitve" player obviously fights back.


The Resolution

Now with Brawl's beginning at our feet, we, the Community of Smash World Forums, must make an example to the Smash Community by merging these two groups together. We have to UNITE, not DIVIDE. With online play a huge new feature, Tournaments could possibly become even more popular than ever, or can decrease in membership drastically, because if the Community alienates newcomers, why would potential players compete in tournaments when they can Brawl online, and enjoy a similar experience.

I admit, I would have never joined the Tournament scene if Melee had online play. (South Alabama had a horrible Smash Tournament Scene, so I quickly left it)

There are obviously two types of Competitive Smashers: The Tournament Player and the NonTournament Player. Now we need to designate proper terms for them rather than "casual" or "competitive" Because Remember

WE ARE ALL COMPETITIVE SMASHERS

you joined 2007, then you must be a casual player, jk. Hmmm im not sure not everyone plays competetive so in my opinion its ok to use casual and competetive, some ppl dont care about winning.

 

[Balloon]

I didn't say anyone in this thread stated any such thing. I said casual players oftentimes have here and on other boards and it's irritating. That's it. I dislike people telling me how to play the game. I don't tell others how to play the game.

But believe it or not, my 5-6 years of playing Melee will undoubtedly help me in playing Brawl. In fact, it's the exact opposite of "not helping me at all". It's going to "help me quite a **** lot".

And wait, I guess I somehow missed the point, but how is the term casual no longer a viable term for smashers? There will undoubtedly be casual players in the future once people learn that they aren't any good at the game.

 

[Ichida]

you joined 2007, then you must be a casual player, jk.

Even though you seem to be joking I had to point out that lognevity does not equal gaming skill. Otherwise tortoises would thwomp us.

 

[MprisM]

Ichida I'd like to point out, tortoises DO NOT play video games.

The thing I love about this thread, at least for the most part, is how all the casuals and those who claim to be competitive agree. Where as competitive players, who have seen both sides of the coin, disagree.

All competitives used to be casual.

All casuals haven't been competitive.

Just an interesting observation.

 

[Ichida]

Ichida I'd like to point out, tortoises DO NOT play video games.

MprisM, I'd like to point out that humans use sarcasm as a tool to metaphorize their point.

 

[ComradeCanada]

Comrade approves the removal of *****fighting.

 

[BowietheHERO]

I definitely see where you're coming from here. I played melee from december 2001 til about february 2006, completely OBLIVIOUS that melee even had a competitive scene. I was bored one night on youtube, and searched for ssbm videos. My mind was blown! I saw this game that i thought i had figured out, and these kids were just going nuts. So I watched how they played, adapted to all the AT's (mad props to luigi for being floaty and letting me get used to WD's and L-cancel's), and learned to SHFFL effectively (with top tiers) after about two months of everyday 4-5 hours of playing.

Now I was always competitive in Melee, I was just playing the game in a casual style. Playing the game "competitively" is adapting to the changes and doing everything in your power to win. The people who claim AT's are glitches can't honestly say they're competitive about Melee, if they were, they would adapt to the changes, and play the game trying to know every little aspect of it.

Take basketball for example. When the professional leagues first started, it was all jump-shots and lay-ups. Julius Irving comes along and starts "dunking" people freaked out, tried to say it was an illegal (pertaining to the rules of basketball) maneuver, and that it was not how the game was meant to be played. Now presently, you can't watch a (professional) game of basketball without seeing ATLEAST one dunk.

 

[tshahi10]

to the op,

the labels actually have truth to them. why would we take them off.

yes the labels do only apply in swf as true casual players only often play smash, or have not any access to the internet or friends, so they do not play well. the swf casuals players, i like to think of as "not very skilled, or no potential" and quick to say the same flames back at competitive people about how they play the game 24/7. that is untrue, a perfect example being pc chris, who do not even have the game anymore, but is still very good. i make no promises about mew2king. also, i think it is unfair to say that competitive people use "advanced techniques" . all they are is pressing a few buttons at the right time. anybody can press a few buttons, but is it possible that only the competitive players press the m correctly.


Items arent the real problem between competitive palyers and casuals. the blatant truth is that casuals are just not as skilled in this game. even using items, a competitive player would win: it would probably help him more than the casual. competitive players are better, and it is a proven faact that losers complain. i really dont want to label casuals as losers, but thats what they are in the facce of a stronger person. of course, these so called losers do tend to have great arrogance because of their status as lower than the competitive players, and this arrogance usually starts fights.

 

[SmashBro99]

I just don't like how some competitive smashers 'look down' on casual players, often calling them things like "kids who play with items", hell it's alot more of a challenge to play with items and stages with hazards then no items/certain stages.

I can play both ways so I don't really care, just saying, the competitive players with the elitist mind set need to grow up.

 

[clowsui]

The Terms

The way these boards have decided to use the terms are as follows:

Casual Players= Players who use items, don't play/like tournament rules, or don't use advanced techs.

Competitive Players= Players who hate items, only play on FD, and use advanced techniques.


These terms are WRONG, and they carry NEGATIVE stigmas that cause friction between the two groups. They are not even true as the many "competitive" players love items, and several "casual" players are fine with tournament rules.

The thing to keep in mind is that : Everyone here is a competitve player.

Lets analyze the community because there are actually THREE groups, not two.

First Group=The players who go to tournaments, and play brawl for money. These are the players who master advanced techniques not only because they heighten the tension in a match, but also because it can help them WIN MONEY. They also don't like items because it can hinder them from WINNING MONEY. Some don't even like the tournament rules but play because they want to...you guessed it...WIN MONEY.

Second Group= The players who don't/can't go to tournaments either because they don't have any in their area, can't afford it, or don't feel comfortable with the tournament setting/players (Not all tourneys are lovable places, I've been to a few where people are *******es and the area is crappy). These guys are usally indifferent about advanced techs. Some use them, some don't, each for their own reasons. Same with Items. They don't HAVE to learn them (tech) or HAVE to play without them (items), so their choices are personal.

Now theres the third group.
Third Group= The ACTUAL casual players. The people who have like one console, play Wii Sports once a week, have never even heard of advanced tech, and always play with items because they don't know how to turn them off. Let's face it....NO ONE OF THIS GROUP IS PART OF THIS, OR ANY OTHER, SMASH FORUM.


Reasons for Hostility between the First and Second Group

The real reasons members of the second group dislike being called casual, is because it is demeaning. "How dare they?!" they think. "Do they think that because I like items or can't go to tournaments I am NOT competitive?" This is true. Winning with items can be just as difficult and competitive as playing without them, its just more unpredictable and risky (which, oddly enough, are the factors that make certain games like Poker and Slots competitive in the first place).

Herein lies the origin of the hostility. Members of the first group may use the term "casual" without any intention of being insulting, yet still come off to the members of the second as "elitist" or having a "high-and-mighty" attitude. The second group attacks back, and the "competitve" player obviously fights back.


The Resolution

Now with Brawl's beginning at our feet, we, the Community of Smash World Forums, must make an example to the Smash Community by merging these two groups together. We have to UNITE, not DIVIDE. With online play a huge new feature, Tournaments could possibly become even more popular than ever, or can decrease in membership drastically, because if the Community alienates newcomers, why would potential players compete in tournaments when they can Brawl online, and enjoy a similar experience.

I admit, I would have never joined the Tournament scene if Melee had online play. (South Alabama had a horrible Smash Tournament Scene, so I quickly left it)

There are obviously two types of Competitive Smashers: The Tournament Player and the NonTournament Player. Now we need to designate proper terms for them rather than "casual" or "competitive" Because Remember

WE ARE ALL COMPETITIVE SMASHERS

You are acting like Sakurai.

"Instead of leaving the mountain there, let's take it away."

I.e. Instead of leaving the labels there for people to interpret the correct and incorrect ways, let's just make it so that we don't have to have these labels at all.

That's not possible - no matter what you do, you are always going to have a more competitive community and a "for fun" community, like sports. It's not plausible or intelligent for that matter to remove a label because labels perpetuate themselves. People interpret things in a condescending manner; what you're saying is that it's not the interpreter's fault but the SPEAKER'S? That's ridiculous. Competitive is a term used to describe people who actively pursue victory through a manner that involves the usage of some or all of the best techniques possible. Possibility, while confine to one's knowledge, can be expanded through research. So long as your possibility can be expanded, you remain casual. Theoretically this perpetuates a competitive player's status as "casual", but there has to exist a limit (as there is in science). Thus we place the limit at "techniques" and "mental patterns [i.e. mindgames]". Casual refers to someone who may or may not pursue victory actively, but ultimately does not do it in a manner that is at the "limit" (i.e. "mindgames" + tech skill).

A square can be a rectangle, as a competitive can be casual, but a rectangle is not a square, as a casual is not a competitive. Though they are both quadrilaterals (players of the same game), there exists inherent properties to them that make them different. Competitive refers largely to a mindset...it is extremely difficult to stereotype these, so all expressions in my post should be taken as a more speculative type of speech. I'm just saying that people who don't make it to tourneys or don't like their local ones can still be competitive - just not to the greatest degree.


EDIT:

I just don't like how some competitive smashers 'look down' on casual players, often calling them things like "kids who play with items", hell it's alot more of a challenge to play with items and stages with hazards then no items/certain stages.

I can play both ways so I don't really care, just saying, the competitive players with the elitist mind set need to grow up.

Competitive players that look down on "casuals" are just being not friendly as a person >_>; Don't try and connect it to the competitive player, that's not fair when many more (in fact, most) are willing to accept items.

 

[SmashBro99]

Well I'm basing it off this site as I don't have many competitives to play around here, so.

 

[Danon]

You are acting like Sakurai.

Wow, thanks...

But you're still missing the point.

Sakurai actually is aiming for the REAL casual gamers.
This is the point I'm trying to make.

There's casual smashers, and Competitive Smashers.

But CASUAL is a bad term given the STATE of the gaming industry.
Casual is that type of gamer that rarely plays a game.

I'm aiming to help refine the group of people that are serious about playing smash, but can't/won't adheare to the tournament setting, and don't like being thought of as not-serious-smashers.

Casual was an acceptable term for Melee players because it was coined at a time when there was no casual demographic for games.