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Good, so now we can play a game that is hopefully deep then right? Cause you know he didn't want the game to be competitive at all so playing it in such a way is already bad enough so we can change it right?This is a complete *******ization of what Sakurai wanted because a few whiny gamers are to pathetic to play the game for what it is.
We're playing Brawl competitively, and in tournaments. That's already a complete basterdization of what Sakurai wanted.This is a complete *******ization of what Sakurai wanted because a few whiny gamers are to pathetic to play the game for what it is.
There is a difference between playing the game how you want and then completely altering the game's core mechanics and then saying how it could be used as standard play.ShadowLink, do you even know what you're talking about, as far as mathematics goes? 1+1=2, period. .99999 repeating ~can~ equal one, but only with faulty math. 2+2 doesn't equal 3. If it does, give me the proofs for it.
Stop *****ing about people playing with a game how they want to.
Notice how they say that it can be proven wrong, but only if you use a number system outside of basic mathematics?Number systems in which the equality fails can be constructed, but only outside the standard real number system used in elementary mathematics.
Are you dumb?And essentially counter-strike and half-life are the same thing, you are still shooting people, no technique has changed, you dont shoot him in the leg for more damage... so instead of playing brawl on score play it on coins
The main reason for bringing up the "ideas" of math was in resposne to someone who said that there science and amth are among perfect truths. His was to counter the perfect truth argument not ana rgument about mathematics.Y
Also, why'd you bring up the "ideas" of math, rather than the solid facts, when arguing with someone who said math is solid facts? Sure, it can be messed with, and there are some oddities and quirks (e^i(pi)+1=0 is pretty neat, non?), but, in general, math is incredibly solid.
Little though it gives the wrong idea of there being such a thing as perfect truth.I fail to see why it factors into this discussion, anyway.
Wrong totally ****ing wrong. Don't flame if its a **** poor one.If you're talking about the "ideas" of math, then why are you so closed minded as to "ideas" people are presenting for making Brawl more to their tastes? When you claim .999...=1, you're manipulating the numbers to get what you want. How is changing the coding in Brawl any different? Better yet, how is it different than what people have been doing with Street Fighter II, or WC3, or anything of that sort? Don't patronize those who seem to have a firmer grasp on things than yourself, kiddo. /flame
****ing lol.Facts are not facts, even in the real world.
And this pertains to the discussion how?lmfao, don't try to tell me about SSBM's technicals being a manipulation of the game, and not a change. Chances are incredibly high that I can ace you in SSBM any given day of the week.
Dur i know about 3rd party programs including those used to edit whatever is in the game.When I was talking about SF2 and WC3, I was talking about hacking and rebalancing Street Fighter, and using a third party map program to make DotA. Surely if you hack, you know that 3rd party map programs allow you to do things you otherwise couldn't do, or couldn't do easily. Those are changes, not manipulations.
Well the reason I mentioned math is because it shows manipulation more clearly than science.Woulda been better if you attacked Science instead of Math, since Science is inherently faulty.
Wrong. Once the game is in your hands you have the right to play it not edit the game. You do not own it therefore you cannot do anything to it beyond the bounds of what is given.taymond said:Firstly, let me be far from the first to shout a resounding "Screw Sakurai's intentions." It doesn't matter one whit what Sakurai wanted or wants right now. We're consumers. Once the game is in our hands, what we want is the only thing that matters. And if players have the ability to take their game and make something new and possibly better out of it, there's no reason they shouldn't. Gaming communities have been taking charge of their games for years, pulling completely new, ingenious ideas out of the original game that were never "intended," and millions of players across the world enjoy them more than the original game, in many cases.
notillegal but again, if they find evidence you have been using a cheating device they can void your warranty.taymond said:LavisFiend, it doesn't matter if you think it might be illegal. Legality is not a matter of opinion, it is clearly defined, and no other similar game-modding device is illegal in the slightest.
pity I don't care if you dislike the philosophical debates and I am not inclined to go to the debate hall since it would mean having to basically apply for permission to post within it.taymond said:Enough with the philosophical debates. Join the debate hall and participate in any one of their subjectivity of reality threads if you're so inclined, but don't absorb whole pages to the discussion of the validity and reliability of mathematics.
There is no reason to do so. however there is a difference between modding your own and then suggesting that the modifications be taken as a standard for play. Or that the modifications that you have done were the "right" way for the game to be made.taymond said:Why shouldn't players take it into their own hands to improve a game if they feel it deserves improvement and have the means to do so? Just because a game was delivered to us in a certain dilapidated, broken fashion doesn't mean we have to choose to live with that. If we have the means and the desire to improve it, what possible reason is there not to do so?
incomplete is a subjective idea just so you know so refrain from using such words.taymond said:The shortsighted intentions of a developer who delivered an incomplete game in the first place? Precedent? No, in fact, precedent is plenty in our favor. There's nothing stopping us.
not saying we should take it but that we are always going to be the last ones considered. It isn't often that a game is made to be competitive. Fighting games like tekken and Street fighter being among the few examples.For the record DotA WAS made with a third party map program (i.e. a change), and is played competitively in tournaments. The regular WC3 players don't ***** at them for it, and claim they should only play tournaments with their rulesets. They just keep playing broken-*** WC3. Same goes for SFII. That game has been hacked and modded for tournament use SO many times, it's not even funny. Don't debate if you have no clue what you're talking about, srsly.
Just because we're the last to be considered by the developers doesn't mean we should lie down and take it. That's stupid.
Hmm? no its just that the idea of saying Sakurai's ideas weren't important is grossly unfair.Most of us don't care about them voiding our warranty. I know I purchased a Wii only for this game, and it's the biggest waste of $300 I could have imagined. Sure, it's fun and all, but competitive singles is garbage compared to ANY competitive fighter. If I have to spend $50 more, just so I have a game worth playing, then that's fine by me.
yeah it makes characters who are slow and close range horrible to play.EDIT: Punishing mistakes is nowhere NEAR as prominent in Brawl. You can **** up a lot if you're Snake or GaW, and still win VERY handily. Spacing is more important, but if you mess up, you're not going to get punished very heavily. Unless you're fighting an IC player that can infinite every time. Or you're Ness and Lucas, two characters that are now completely unusable in tournament.
If you have nothing other to do than troll then kindly refrain from posting.Shadow Links awful at refuting logic, I've experienced this first hand. Just, don't bother.
I like him, but yeah, that's your opinion.As I said before, I don't give two ****s about Sakurai's intentions. He's a *****, and can **** off. I'm glad he'll never work on a Smash Bros game again. Maybe we can have a real fighter in a couple years.
Censor bypass and trolling.You're trolling a thread by disagreeing with its purpose when they're not really doing anything to harm you and its far from the sort of unproductive spam that actually does warrant a troll/flame attempt.
Of course this will go over your head, because you're fvcking ********.
Eh im not sure about increasing the hitstun. Tripping is something I can agree upon being removed since its definitely something that doesn't work out.=Interim ofzeal said:We're NOT putting in wavedashing. Right now, we're just talking about increasing hitstun and removing tripping. We don't want Melee 2.0. Well, not right now, anyway.
So?siegk said:They're returning it to a tried and tested formula as opposed to the 'worse' framework they applied to the final brawl.
Except we are the minority. We are the competitive community not the mainstream gamers. We don't make up the vast majority of buyers so why should he satisfy us?siegk said:I really like Sakurai's design skills, he isn't dumb, he intended alot of the crap and esoteric tricks such as Wolf's reflector having an invincible frame. He made a game intended for everyone and whether he succeeded or not, its a nice bit of work. But his intentions don't matter, and its unlikely he knew what level of intensity it took to satisfy people like us.
All the time? It is they who designed the core gameplay that we have now.siegk said:Its the game. All the game. His intention to not allow forced wavelanding didn't stop us from using it, such is the nature of a cardinal direction abiding airdodge mechanic; no way to have one and not the other, really. We'd have been fools to refuse to use it for the - drastically overrated by scrubs - spacing applications it can have.
Granted Brawls pretty sluggish and certainly not astounding, though I love doubles and find it far more technical than singles. I think this idea would be amazing; I recall e for all had some consistent hitstun, and lovely play mechanics. I'd like to apply the framework of the beta versions to the final brawl, if we can find it or at least replicate it somehow.
It'd be perfect, and you know it.
Since when has a designers intentions ever mattered?
There's not really an application process anymore, you just have to wait as long as it takes for Crimson King to confirm a request. And no, regardless of any peripheral attachment to the main idea, you know as well as I do that this tangent does not belong in this thread. You just don't care. That's fine, just don't lie about it.pity I don't care if you dislike the philosophical debates and I am not inclined to go to the debate hall since it would mean having to basically apply for permission to post within it.
The validity and reliability of mathematics pertain to the discussion at hand because they are tied to manipulating and changing of the game.
Nobody's suggesting any modified Brawl as the standard for competitive play, so.. stop mistakenly thinking that? There might be some hope it might be a standard for a small, cult group to play in, but never the majority standard. We're not trying to force our opinions or the way we choose to play on anyone. Can the same be said for the opposition?There is no reason to do so. however there is a difference between modding your own and then suggesting that the modifications be taken as a standard for play. Or that the modifications that you have done were the "right" way for the game to be made.
The only ones that can say this were those who developed and programmed the game.
we have no business bringing it online or to tournaments or even thinking of suggesting it as the standard for play.
Yes I like the idea of bringing back SSBM gameplay and I would surely do it on my own system, however I know it would be far from wise to suggest it be a standard.
I wasn't claiming Brawl was incomplete. I was speaking in generalities of the situation of being given a game that falls far short of its potential mark. I was not, in any way, speaking about Brawl or this particular situation. I have no qualms with how Brawl was made, it makes absolute perfect sense, you're more than right.incomplete is a subjective idea just so you know so refrain from using such words.
The developers made the game how they made it to be.
We as a competitive community cannot say they were shortsighted for not considering us.
We are the smallest population in the gaming community so we are the last ones to be considered.
The developers aimed to make the game mainstream and that is how it is, it isn't a bad game it just doesn't satisfy the needs of competitive gamers. That is hardly the fault of developers when they have their own ideas on how the game should be.
So trying to enforce the hacks as a standard play doe snot affect me as a gamer?There is a difference between disagreeing logically and saying subjective, unbased bull that doesn't add anything to a topic that, btw, has a goal that won't harm you, and doesn't really need conflictive opinions to fulfill that goal, particularly not of the illogical and skewed kind. If it really bugs you personally and was relevant to disagree with, or they were discussing building a new framework over a mandatory part of your life instead of leaving you alone, then maybe you'd have the right
That sounds WONDERFUL! Hey, while we're at it, let's ask for everyone's approval as to whether we want to play 3rd Strike, or SFII. We can also ask if we should seriously be playing GG:AC, or GG/. If more people vote for one, let's forget the other. The masses ARE, in fact, intelligent.Anyways: on topic. I don't believe we should use hacks as a standard of play. Not at least seeing what the majority of people say concerning the subject.
We should make a poll perhaps.
This doesn't quite make sense. Why would we need to add wavedashing and l cancelling? Surely, as a hacker, you know what adding wavedashing would entail? We'd have to completely bypass the Havok engine, rather than just change a few values. Sounds like pretty hefty work. As you admitted before, you never played SSBM competitively. I don't really see you as knowing what entails "balance".Eh im not sure about increasing the hitstun. Tripping is something I can agree upon being removed since its definitely something that doesn't work out.
I don't think you can increase hitstun without adding wavedashing/L canceling.
Mainly since that isn't enough if we are to balance the game out and improve upon its gameplay.
We never played with "developer's intent" in mind. We always played with the intent of being competitive. If we played with "developer's intent", then I seriously doubt that SWDing, Wobbling, waveshining, or FC pillaring would have been used in competitive play. We didn't need to hack SSB64 or SSBM to make them competitive, they already were. Meanwhile, Brawl is just a really really really shiny version of rock, paper, scissors.We should be concerned as to the developers take on how they intended the game to be, we should be using what they had given us just as we did with melee and SSB64.
We didn't try to hack the game and balance it out did we?
And we surely had the tools as well.
Just because we didn't say **** you, Sakurai! before, doesn't mean we shouldn't now. Melee and 64 were fine. He tried to make Melee less competitive, and failed miserably. Notsomuch this time.Except we are the minority. We are the competitive community not the mainstream gamers. We don't make up the vast majority of buyers so why should he satisfy us?
granted we can't just sit there and say oh thankyou for screwing us over Sakurai but we can't exactly say **** your opinion and design we'll make it into how we want it.
We never did that in melee and 64.
Now you're getting it!He did design melee are you saying his opinion didn't matter?
Incredible unintentional depth.Especially when vets praise melee for its incredible depth?
He directed it. He did not program it. He simply told them the gist of what he wanted. He did NOT give us raisins. He gave us rabbit pellets, and pretended they were raisins.Credit is due to him whether he intended it or not, we can't just say screw you out of Nowhere just because he gave us raisins instead of nuts.
The results of Melee were the results of programmers and testers. All he did was yell at them, and tell them what to do. The testers are the ones that left wavedashing in, not him. Chances are really high that the programmers are the ones that left l-cancelling intact, not him. The programmers are the ones responsible for the rebalanced European version of Melee, not him. Stop pretending he's a hero. He's the reason tripping is in Brawl. One of the testers tried to write it up as a bug, and got a note specifically stating that it was a feature implemented by Sakurai, and what caused it. I've posted this numerous times, only to be ignored.the results of melee were the results of the work he put in, it does matter.
Except that is incredibly contrived. First off, it's more like him mass producing colouring books, and us colouring it how we want to. Some of us actually prefer to colour outside the lines. Second off, Sakurai doesn't have to deal with this game anymore, and probably doesn't give two ****s about it, given his general disdain for working on the Smash series. Third, artists used to be executed if their works didn't meet demands. I hardly think us changing a few values is the equivalent of that.Let's say Sakurai worked with sculptures.
He makes the first statue people praise it and love it because of its depths and fell.
Secnod statue people like it and say its incredible.
Third comes around and a minority hate it.
tehy promptly take the sculpture and start chiseling until its as they wanted it.
That isn't very fair to the maker is it?
Except he's not grossly overshadowing the characters. Samus has bomb traps, combos, and those missles of doom. Noxus (I think?) gets the x-axis freeze glitch, to instant headshot kills. Sylux gets triangle bombing. The list goes on, especially if you play with glitches. Don't try to spout MP:H at me, I know that game pretty well. It's broken to ****.I'll present another situation.
the handheld FPS MP:h.
in that game you get 7 weapons.
7 different characters with different alternate forms and affinity abilities.
trace sticks out on top and grossly overshadows every character.
Why?
Since he gets the sniper rifle on 25 out of 26 levels.
this is also broken to the fact that you can use the weapon up close.
Switching zoom to increase the damage output is incredibly easy to the point you do not even affect your aim.
We didn't do any of this because we didn't have to. Trace is high tier, but not broken. Scrubs think he is, but he's not.We could modify the game so that he couldn't get the weapon so often.
We could even modify the rifle so it has no aiming reticule when its unzoomed but did we?
No.
Did we slow down his alternate form because it could literally move faster than any other alt in the game?
Hell even outrun a homing missile?
Nope we didn't.
What was given was given and while we could modify it we didn't modify it and say this is how the game should be. Simply because it wasn't meant for the rifle to not have a reticule when unzoomed or for trace's alt to move slowly.
And this is where we differ. From the sound of it, you've never played a game competitively, nor understand what makes a game competitive. As such, your arguments are moot, and your opinions mean little-to-nothing for most of us. If we want to play a modified Brawl comptetively, let us. We're not going to stop you from playing campfest, so don't try and stop us from playing a punishment oriented game.I can udnerstand hacking the game for personal use I have no problem with that, but not for trying to make it a standard for competitive play.
I was discussing the competitive community NOT mainstream gamers.That sounds WONDERFUL! Hey, while we're at it, let's ask for everyone's approval as to whether we want to play 3rd Strike, or SFII. We can also ask if we should seriously be playing GG:AC, or GG/. If more people vote for one, let's forget the other. The masses ARE, in fact, intelligent.
lawl.
the reason I say this is because increasnig the hitstun and adding combos would not be enough to balance out the game.This doesn't quite make sense. Why would we need to add wavedashing and l cancelling? Surely, as a hacker, you know what adding wavedashing would entail? We'd have to completely bypass the Havok engine, rather than just change a few values. Sounds like pretty hefty work. As you admitted before, you never played SSBM competitively. I don't really see you as knowing what entails "balance".
That would work only against idiots that are spamming their smash attacks and even then that doesn't do anything.Hitstun increase is MORE than enough, because then, actual combos can result. You could actually punish someone for playing stupidly, rather than hope you don't get infected by the stupidity in your attempt to punish the dsmash spamming Wolf.
They weren't already competitive. the competitive community MADE them competitive. Just as Halo genre was made competitive.We never played with "developer's intent" in mind. We always played with the intent of being competitive. If we played with "developer's intent", then I seriously doubt that SWDing, Wobbling, waveshining, or FC pillaring would have been used in competitive play. We didn't need to hack SSB64 or SSBM to make them competitive, they already were. Meanwhile, Brawl is just a really really really shiny version of rock, paper, scissors.
Just because we didn't say **** you, Sakurai! before, doesn't mean we shouldn't now. Melee and 64 were fine. He tried to make Melee less competitive, and failed miserably. Notsomuch this time.
I don't see halo competitive gamers saying this when halo 1 was changed drastically.I will dismiss this portion of your argument by saying this:
Dear Sakurai,
**** your opinion and design. We'll make it into how we want it.
Yours' truly,
IoZ
yes and the programmers did what Sakurai wanted. It isn't like the programmers get a **** say in anything.Now you're getting it!
Incredible unintentional depth.
He directed it. He did not program it. He simply told them the gist of what he wanted. He did NOT give us raisins. He gave us rabbit pellets, and pretended they were raisins.
Again, screw you, Sakurai.
Wrong we were't there so we do not know what was going on conerning the testing.The results of Melee were the results of programmers and testers. All he did was yell at them, and tell them what to do. The testers are the ones that left wavedashing in, not him.
So you're telling me that Sakurai just said, hey make this game and the programmers made it and did not even once go back and have him look at it and determine if its what he wanted?Chances are really high that the programmers are the ones that left l-cancelling intact, not him. The programmers are the ones responsible for the rebalanced European version of Melee, not him. Stop pretending he's a hero. He's the reason tripping is in Brawl. One of the testers tried to write it up as a bug, and got a note specifically stating that it was a feature implemented by Sakurai, and what caused it. I've posted this numerous times, only to be ignored.
Ah well thats a pity then. If Sakurai doesn't want us coloring outside the lines and makes it so that outside the lines everything turns white then tahts just his intentions. Can't ge tpissed about that.Except that is incredibly contrived. First off, it's more like him mass producing colouring books, and us colouring it how we want to. Some of us actually prefer to colour outside the lines. Second off, Sakurai doesn't have to deal with this game anymore, and probably doesn't give two ****s about it, given his general disdain for working on the Smash series. Third, artists used to be executed if their works didn't meet demands. I hardly think us changing a few values is the equivalent of that.
Except he's not grossly overshadowing the characters. Samus has bomb traps, combos, and those missles of doom. Noxus (I think?) gets the x-axis freeze glitch, to instant headshot kills. Sylux gets triangle bombing. The list goes on, especially if you play with glitches. Don't try to spout MP:H at me, I know that game pretty well. It's broken to ****.
We didn't do any of this because we didn't have to. Trace is high tier, but not broken. Scrubs think he is, but he's not.
im not trying to stop you from playing it but im not gonna let someone say this is the standard form of play if the majority of competitive players disagreed.interimofzeal said:And this is where we differ. From the sound of it, you've never played a game competitively, nor understand what makes a game competitive. As such, your arguments are moot, and your opinions mean little-to-nothing for most of us. If we want to play a modified Brawl comptetively, let us. We're not going to stop you from playing campfest, so don't try and stop us from playing a punishment oriented game.
I also lawl at ramblings about how the competitive gamers, the smallest group of gamers in general, should be the ones to dictate how a game should or should not be.interimofzeal said:Also, I lawl@your pseudo-intellectual ramblings. They're really quite cute.
then I shall say this as well.interimofzeal said:Now, I will say this as clearly as possible:
We do not know what the developer's intentions were. Do not claim you do. Even if the standard version of Brawl ~was~ the developer's idea of a good game, we do not care. We want to play a good, competitive game, with the current list of Brawl characters.
For all intents and purposes, the difference between us is this:
I say **** SAKURAI'S INTENTIONS
While you suck his teat.
Simple as that.