Use that bread: a falco metagame discussion.

[Beetle Juice]

Okay I made this thread to talk about the physics of falco and can help us or improve the way we play with him. I also made this thread because its been a couple a weeks that all we did is nothing but talk about his "bread," so then I decided to using that "bread" (not literaly). We also know some of our brave bird's strengh's and weakness, but just like Falco the metagame in brawl will change in the near future. Therefore we in the falco community will change falco's aspects that will not only imrprove our feather friend but us as well. As I see it other players are doing what they can to improve their characters into finding certain techniques while others simply are just making silly jokes. We in the other hand, are way behind them.

Okay now back to falco... he has a projectile, speed in both movement and moves and priority in his attacks. We all have our own way of using him and our own methods. He got the gatling combo and the laser lock (rarely happens) in which can rack up some good damage. Like some would say he prefers the air, and like i would say not so high up. Falco cannot fight very well high up in the air, why, because it can leave him open especially when you are trying to get back on the ground.

Falco has the upper hand in most of his fights but some characters can prove otherwise. But just because in the boards it says he has a disadvantage against a certain character like metaknight or game & watch does not change the fact that Falco can still win. This means that as a falco player you have taken extreme measures and have gain experience in these kind of circumstances. Falco unlike others, does not go down so easily. I will add more stuff into the thread but right now i want to here other peoples opinion in the falco community and anybody that wishes to join and I will do the best I can to answer any question or what do you need help on.

 

[Drakuaza]

Good point on the bread topic, thats why i barely posted lately, just stupid threads around, no offence. But that made the falco thread fall behind by alot.

Now into topic. since im back after some time, i was wondering, what uses the Fair got nowdays, i heared there was a spike but is that all?

 

[TheX0913]

its not a spike. Its not a meteor smash. It simply gimps recovery and those videos you have probably seen of these "spikes" is probably both players launching an aerial attack and since aerial attack don't pings, they just trade damage and stun resulting in the opponent not being able to move for like a second making it look like he goes down.

 

[TheX0913]

i don't know...most of these players underestimate falco's reflector. I once saw sethlon lose to a G&W almost badly but he didn't use the reflector. That makes me wonder what would've happened if he did use it. Another thing is the lack of combos in this game. Every two hits results in you getting smacked by the opponent. We attack and try to go to a neutral position where neither opponent has an advantage. So i was wondering how can we keep the pressure on. I figured we could nair fast fal,l AAA combo, back off and shoot lasers. Just to keep the momentum going. secondly, the shielding is predominant in this game because it provide the most advantage. Which leads me to this thread http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185395
It is a very nice thread on the marth board that shows us how we should go about approaching and attacking. We need to set up a committee or something to get through with this project. That's all i have to say for now.

 

[Beetle Juice]

yea there is a vid on falco's fair in youtube i was watching it before you asked the question. Falco's fair are more for gimping purposes because it has so much ending lag but it has multiple hits to drag your opponent low enough to mess up their recovery.

I got the site now I'm going to just paste it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xEXOhNe1AQ

 

[Beetle Juice]

sorry to double post but tommorow i will discuss falcos ko methods in the afternoon so i will be back on around 3 pm i hope this thread doesn't go to waste =[

EDIT: i mean today =p

 

[Binx]

The problems I have with falco is landing killing blows over 100%, lets go ahead and ignore edgeguarding cause its brawl, but vs pretty much any characters in the cast it becomes hard to land killing blows, none of his throws set up well, his fsmash, and up smash are too slow to land not to mention predictable, his dsmash and his bair are both faster but also very predictable and don't have much range so they are easy to space, so then I see lots of spot dodge to smash kills in sethlon vids, is that the only reliable method of KOs?

I was trying forward b to bair combos but can't seem to get that kind of range on a consistent basis (my friends have good spacing and don't give me the whole stage length to spam them *sigh*)

 

[Tommy_G]

The problem with a lot of Falcos is that they have trouble landing kill moves past 100%. Does anyone realize what Falco uses about 70% of the time to kill? Up smash. When fighting Metaknight, for example, does anyone know that Falco's up smash kills at 100-110% undiminished? If you get a grab on Metaknight at 0% you can get 50% on him by chaingrabbing to Forward Smash(not spike because Fsmash does more damage) Then you have 50% or so of lasering, Phantasming, reflectoring, anything other than up-smashing to get on him before he's at kill percent. Any upsmashes from 50%-100% are useless moves that relatively doesn't do any damage. (They take damage but their kill percent goes up with it) This includes the Gatling combo. Don't use it.

If you're ahead by a stock, spam the upsmash, but don't get predictable(i.e. dont make it your only move). It works so well and has such a huge hitbox.

 

[Rejjae]

I find it better to end chaingrabs with a gattling. That does more damage than Fsmash and you only need to land 10 more attacks between the gattling Upsmash and the finishing upsmash to fully refresh it.

 

[Tommy_G]

I guarantee you that you will not do 10 different moves if you gattling combo them after a chain grab before 100%, but if you want to not be able to kill until 150% unless by a gimping spike then so be it.

 

[Beetle Juice]

The best gaurantee method i can say or prefer personaly is to tech a foward smash or up smash. Falco has some a really good tech chasing game and most of the time it starts with a grab. We all know how good his down thrown is but the problem is that most falco players stop using their grabs after the chaingrab. Falco has several options after a down thrown when your opponent is at a 70-100%(maybe a little more). He can either shdl while di'ing towards them to a up smash or a shdl, dair, they roll then you foward smash. There was once in a match when I was playing against my friends metaknight where about 2/3's of the rounds I had metaknight rolling all over the floor with grabs, lasers and down throws into smash attacks and after that he just stop playing me n that made me sad =(

Edit: forgot to mention Falco's foward smash has enough reach to hit behind you so even if the roll behind you a good spaced F-smash will do the job and the knockback is the same as it is sweetspotted in the front.

 

[Pearl Floatzel]

My favorite tactic right now is a SHL-land-dtilt-utilt. Or just dtilt-utilt. But right now I like mixing up SH Dair with SHL really low, and empty short hops.
But dtilt is amazing.

 

[Beetle Juice]

falco has great tilts mainly for spacing. his down tilt can kill if it's not used and his up tilt can keep your opponent on the air with a set of moves aswell like a fast fall nair to up tilt to another then a nair. up tilt can also be used well after to gatling combo at low percents and kills if you didn't use it when your opponent is at a certain %.

 

[Tommy_G]

Seeing that down air is usually hit on the way up, try using it out of a full hop hitting with it while rising. Falco is able to full hop down air, fast fall, and down air again before hitting the floor. You're able to change this up to air dodge to grab for mindgames, but if you do a full hop down air and di away or phantasm away, it's pretty safe. It does combo at certain percents.

 

[Beetle Juice]

Yea it may work tommy g but i think maybe it would be better if you wait till you opponent gets to a laser level range in order to limit their options. Plus you don't want your to be waiting for you on the ground because that has happen to me before (pit's foward smash, metaknights whorenado, etc). Remember falco metagame in melee where he would limit his opponents movements, combo them, then ended with gimping them or a front smash/nair, thats what made falco a difficult character. He can still use the same methods of limiting movements but with different steps and factors. He has the chain grab which marth did alot, after that his down throw is now like falcons in which he can do what ever he pleases, and tech chasing was one of marth and falcons specialties in which falco has a more easier time doing so now. But that together with laser approaches your opponent will be standing still holding on to his shield, and when he does, don't attack him with a arial attack or gatling combo, grab him and he will know that he is in trouble. The rest is up to the player.

Edit: an empty short hop can help then grab.

 

[TheX0913]

I was trying forward b to bair combos but can't seem to get that kind of range on a consistent basis (my friends have good spacing and don't give me the whole stage length to spam them *sigh*)

This is what i'm talking about. we need to understand falco's limits and ranges. The stage that brings this out the most if final destination. For example, wangston has a guide that perfectly shows how to use elements for the stage to measure distance. He uses the triangles on the floor to carefully lay out a perfect chaing grab to dair. Here is the link. read it. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175482
Also, I made a thread dealing with reverse pivot chain grab with i need to update to "reverse pivot boost chain grab" http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179620 in this thread I also use the triangles on the floor to measure distance and when and where a player can land a chain grab and what not. we need to be a rigourous with falco's side b. When we know exactly how to execute it and how far it will land us the phantasm bair combo will become easy and we won't have to guess.

 

[Beetle Juice]

what about finding the timing of shortening the phamtasm and the length that way we can see if we can do it at a short range and capatilize the bair.

 

[TheX0913]

well do you mean the canceled phantasm? because that does no damage. If not, then i see that you are probably leading to short hopped immediate phantasm (SHIP) furthering the range. And for variety and unpredictability we can do a grounded phantasm. For the SHIP we can actually play mind games if your falco's approach is SHL or SHDL. your opponent will most likely think you are lasering, go in for the attack and advantage only to eat a phantasm. By the way I will try to make a thread about falco phantasm lenght and "combo" set up. Hopefully by the end of this week.

 

[TheX0913]

also, sorry for the double post but not really. I think a nice way to improve falco's metagame is to have a discussion thread on falco's matches in the video thread. I will start this now.

 

[Beetle Juice]

ok um can you make thread for falco's down throw to because people only seem to use it just for chain grabs and i got no recording equipment but i will see if i can record a match for it to be used as a kill set up and tech chase. I have done it a lot because thats how i play with him now and ot will be better to show people that his down throw is actually more useful than it already is.

 

[TheX0913]

For now, all i have is this useful thread for racking up damage with falco's d throw. I do believe there can be a variation that it more full proof or just as effective. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161560

 

[Beetle Juice]

there is a better way and so far i use it for tech chasing and lasers up smash at higher percents. I would aslo like if you can test out what if after the chaingrab you opponent DI's away in which the are near the floor and see if you can laser lock them because it seems to be possible but i never think of standing still and just fire lasers.

 

[PCHU]

Not really a tech, but ledge attack (if you hit with it) to laser.
Not quite sure at what percentage it works at, but laser immediately after you attack.
If it's done at the right percentages, it goes to a laserlock.

I know most people don't fall for a ledge attack, but if you can get one in, you can get a whole lot more damage.

And a repeated dair (like them being in the air, you dair them, and then dair them again, kind of like dribbling a basketball) works for me.

Sorry if any of these don't work for you, I don't have much time to test anything.

By the way, sorry that I promoted the 'bread' so much.
It was fun and I caught on.
But I did make one thread solely dedicated to it so you guys don't have to shield your eyes coming here.

 

[AvoiD]

This is what i'm talking about. we need to understand falco's limits and ranges. The stage that brings this out the most if final destination. For example, wangston has a guide that perfectly shows how to use elements for the stage to measure distance. He uses the triangles on the floor to carefully lay out a perfect chaing grab to dair. Here is the link. read it. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175482
Also, I made a thread dealing with reverse pivot chain grab with i need to update to "reverse pivot boost chain grab" http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179620 in this thread I also use the triangles on the floor to measure distance and when and where a player can land a chain grab and what not. we need to be a rigourous with falco's side b. When we know exactly how to execute it and how far it will land us the phantasm bair combo will become easy and we won't have to guess.

As to the Reverse Boost Grab, I made a topic on it, but it's not actually 'complete'.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183965

There seemed to be a topic about it already, from one of the posts. But it's info on the DLX as well.

 

[Beetle Juice]

the first time i found out about the reverse boost grab was in a fox video called the fox that doesn't shine on youtube and to it before it use to be dash->shield->move joystick to opposite direction you are running->press A

 

[3GOD]

I guarantee you that you will not do 10 different moves if you gattling combo them after a chain grab before 100%, but if you want to not be able to kill until 150% unless by a gimping spike then so be it.

It shouldn't be that hard to get 10 moves (9 is all you need I think) in between a Usmash and another Usmash. Each laser shot would count as a move, and if you Phantasm them, that would also count as a move. So like 6 lasers and 3 phantasms and you're back to a fresh Usmash.

Also, don't forget kids...grab attacks refresh your other moves...if you get a grab after chain grab %s, make sure you do at least one or two grab attacks.

 

[Megavitamins]

Not really a tech, but ledge attack (if you hit with it) to laser.
Not quite sure at what percentage it works at, but laser immediately after you attack.
If it's done at the right percentages, it goes to a laserlock.

I know most people don't fall for a ledge attack, but if you can get one in, you can get a whole lot more damage.

And a repeated dair (like them being in the air, you dair them, and then dair them again, kind of like dribbling a basketball) works for me.

Sorry if any of these don't work for you, I don't have much time to test anything.

By the way, sorry that I promoted the 'bread' so much.
It was fun and I caught on.
But I did make one thread solely dedicated to it so you guys don't have to shield your eyes coming here.

Actually, I think m2k did some frame data about what percents ledge attack -> laser lock worked at on different characters.

 

[Beetle Juice]

yea but i wasn't talkin about the ledge i'm talking about percentages in which you have no need to chain grab and you are nowhere near the ledge. Sometimes your opponent just thinks about DI'ing away that they are closer to the ground when the are thrown and i want to know if it is possible to laser lock them since there can be a high probability they will miss their tech roll due to the current speed the are going.

 

[AvoiD]

the first time i found out about the reverse boost grab was in a fox video called the fox that doesn't shine on youtube and to it before it use to be dash->shield->move joystick to opposite direction you are running->press A

You sure that's not a regular Pivot Grab? I didn't quite understand the wording ._. .

EDIT: And I'm not exactly sure, but you should be able to laser lock them. Unless they figure you'd be trying to, I doubt it'd work most of the time.

 

[Beetle Juice]

yea that is the reverse pivot grab it was first demonstaed in a fox combo vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX3P9qIOzhU