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Using Zelda's Sourspots.

Proverbs

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
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Location
Seattle, WA
Disclaimer: I do not main Zelda. Out of my top five most used characters she is number 4. The lower two characters I do not take too seriously. I am also not writing a walkthrough here. I'm only beginning one for someone more qualified to finish (except in the case that I begin taking her more seriously, but I feel that even number 5, G&W, has a better chance as she used to be my secondary before my friend started maining her and then ditched her for Metaknight). All of that being said, let me begin:

Yes, you read the title correctly. That does say sourspots.

It seems to me that some people are "Falling out of love with Zelda," as a previous thread was named, and I can see why. Zelda is a powerhouse, a ridiculous combination of spammable projectiles that force others to approach while you rack up damage and easily executed smashes (Remember when the sliding u-smash would get your friends every time?). Let's not forget her famous lightening kicks (that is why I have aptly named these attacks "The High Heel of Death"). Put that together with a female character that is seemingly weak (consider her Melee self, especially) and you have an extremely attractive character.

But what happens now? Your friends catch on to your obvious smashes, Din's Fire is a joke to them that they chuckle at as they dodge, and they watch out for those oh-so-deadly kicks. So what now? You're stuck with a character that has a stale strategy that's slow and can't juggle for her life--not to mention being weak from below and having a ridiculous lag time after Farore's Wind.

So Zelda went from being the slender house of hidden power to the unattractive and overweight loser who couldn't move her self to save her life from the likes of Metaknight or Marth. So what now? Is there any saving grace or is Zelda doomed to become just slightly above low tier again?

Hardly, Zelda has a lot more tricks up her sleeve than I think we're willing to admit.

Zelda's sourspots are one of the few things that can lead, in my opinion, to legitimate combos when utilized correctly. Use platforms and weak attacks to knock someone down, use a sour d-air into other weak attacks such as an f-tilt into a major attack like an f-smash, then follow up to edgeguard.

If done correctly you could be looking at perhaps a 30% combo that can bring them from the useless point in which you can do nothing to the percentage that we all strive to achieve--that at which she can KO at most reliably.

I actually have a video of a match of me against some CPU Pokemon Trainer as training for myself. But near the end of the match I end up racking up this giant combo on the burning house part of Pokemon Stadium. I did something incredibly similar to what I mentioned above. I'm not sure exactly what I did, but I think I came out with around a five or seven hit combo that I think ended in an f-smash and set up for a Lightening Kick edgeguard as Charizard tried to recover.

Granted, that was a CPU, so it might not work the same exact way. However, I think there is much potential to be found in these sourspots. The fact that it was Charizard is more important, however. The more heavily weighted characters will be easier to do this on and that needs to be taken into consideration. But all in all, I would say that the same combo would have worked on a human player (maybe with the exception of the lightening kick which they might have been able to dodge and still recover).

I have the replay if you want to watch it and see what you can draw from it and use for your playstyle. I can't upload it but I can send it to someone here.

Also, just throwing this out there but running into a shorthopped u-air that will come right above on a platform is something that will help your game a ton. I know this is obvious, but if you're finding your Zelda lacking, chances are you could incorporate this more on stages like Pokemon Stadium or Battlefield.


Thoughts? Comments? Flames?
 

SinkingHigher

Smash Lord
Joined
May 4, 2008
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Canada
Zelda is not overweight lol.

jks.
She was. Then Link told her she was fat, so she trapped him in time for 7 years and developed an eating disorder.

Anyway...

I think the problem with Zelda's sourspots is that they have the same lag whether they connect or not, and so they can be easily punished. Her sweetspots make her one of the most powerful characters in the game. Magic gives her a boosted range, which is great.

Personally, I rarely use Din's. Well, in comparison to most of the Zelda's out there, so that elimates that problem.

I don't know if I can fully answer this, since I play as Sheik and Zelda both in a match. There will inevitably be some things I don't notice, therefore, and some things that I do.

As a downside to her barage of powerful one-hit KOs, it is definitely true, she can SCARCELY put together a combo. You're right, the sour-spots are still attacks, and should be treated accordingly.

My problem is that the only controllable sourspots are the f-air d-air and b-air attacks, right? These sourspots don't have the knockback ability needed to carry on in one fluid motion. Perhaps I just need to practice them.

So, to conclude, I agree, it is difficult to put together combos with Zelda, and this is a good, if not the only solution to this. However, in my opinion, this is one of those "as-good-as-it-gets" fixes. Not your fault or anything, that's just the way it is.

Thanks for sharing. (Sorry if I come off a little crude and arrogant. It's been a long day.)
 

Iris

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Messages
532
Yeah, I can see this being helpful for combos, but starting with them seems dangerous since they autosweetspot on shields and have enormous hitlag when they do.
 

popsofctown

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
2,505
Location
Alabama
Zelda has several combos, they come up at odd times, with odd DI, and at odd percents. But almost none of them are formulaic as everyone else's.
Haha, I do remember "back in the day", when hyphen smashing worked. It's a good indicator of what level of play someone has reached, if they still hyphen dash against grounded opponents, they're on down there.

I might combo with my sourspots, i don't really know. I'll try to look at my own game and notice whether i do. I know you are smart enough to know and mention it proverb, but comboing a computer is much different than a real person.

@SinkingHigher: actually, i think on rare occasion i've comboed with sourspot dair. Sourspot dairs do spike, but it's not a strong spike. It's like a spikelet. So i use sourspot dair, drop slightly to the right, and bair the resultant grounded opponent. That works.
 

Proverbs

Smash Lord
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^You beat me to it, sort of. The f-air and b-air are going to be hard to do with this, but using the d-air on a grounded opponent as you land (because there is little lag time) may lead to combos. This may make the d-air useful on grounded opponents. I know doing combos on computers is different, but you'd have to see what happened. Charizard hardly moved or had time to. And while this might not be inescapable, it'll be unexpected and thus still could be done. See what I mean?

It would probably help if I could show you guys the video. Can anyone upload it?


And SinkingHigher, you didn't come off that crude or critical. What you said needed to be said and helps. Thanks.
 

Oh Snap

Smash Ace
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Scarborough, ON
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iSwallow
Actually sourspot dair can be useful. It really catches your opponents off guard sometimes and they'll do something stupid and SD. Like, I dunno...being trapped under the FD. It's hard to pull off, though.
 

popsofctown

Smash Champion
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Messages
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^You beat me to it, sort of. The f-air and b-air are going to be hard to do with this, but using the d-air on a grounded opponent as you land (because there is little lag time) may lead to combos. This may make the d-air useful on grounded opponents. I know doing combos on computers is different, but you'd have to see what happened. Charizard hardly moved or had time to. And while this might not be inescapable, it'll be unexpected and thus still could be done. See what I mean?

It would probably help if I could show you guys the video. Can anyone upload it?


And SinkingHigher, you didn't come off that crude or critical. What you said needed to be said and helps. Thanks.
Yup, dair leads to a whole lot of what we'd call "untrue" combos. Actually sweetspot dairs can combo into things to, sometimes in a true combo.. but the subject of the thread is sourspots.
 

Luthien

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
792
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Victoria, British Columbia
Haha, I do remember "back in the day", when hyphen smashing worked. It's a good indicator of what level of play someone has reached, if they still hyphen dash against grounded opponents, they're on down there.
*Sighs* I want to keep living in denial, but it's true. I so loved it when my opponents would shield, assume the attack was over, and let go to have the other eleven hits of the usmash make their day. That just doesn't happen anymore. :(

@SinkingHigher: actually, i think on rare occasion i've comboed with sourspot dair. Sourspot dairs do spike, but it's not a strong spike. It's like a spikelet. So i use sourspot dair, drop slightly to the right, and bair the resultant grounded opponent. That works.
I've combo'd with a sourspot dair, like, twice. >.< Every other time, though, I was utilted/usmashed into non-being. Sweetspot dair combos are much more satisfying. Dair -> techchased fsmash is very satisfying.
 

Ztarfish

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
484
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B-Town Colorado
I really don't think so. I mean I've gotten away with a sour spotted Dair once or twice and actually did have a psuedo combo going, but I'm guessing that I only got away with it cause my opponent was like WTF a grounded Dair and was in a state of paralytic confusion. It was probably even residual habit from ground Dairing people as Ness

The negligible amount of stun that Dair produces ends before you even land so it is very possible and likely that you'll get hardcore punished. I dunno if the stun increases with damage but I think you'll be more concentrating on killing that comboing with sourspotted Dair's once they get around to 150.
 

DarkThundah

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May 24, 2008
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America the greatest country ever.
I don't claim to be an expert but personally I don't think her fair/bair sourspot has a lot of real potential. Like mentioned previously theres hard core lag time and no knock back. But I've noticed while watching some of Darkmusicans vids that he has an effective way of sweetspotting her fair/bair; by either jumping upwards into a fair, or fastfalling into a fair.

I do find her Dspike, even sourspotted to be quite useful however. Thanks 4 posting, info is good.
 

popsofctown

Smash Champion
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@ ztarfish
Sourspot dairs never lead into true combos. I asserted that they could lead into non-true combos, which is usually equivalent to punishable combos.

Also, i start them in the air, and they are usually missed sweetspot dairs. Sometimes, the resulting situation from sourspot dair on someone slightly above the ground will allow me to drop to the side of them and bair. And, character-specifically, that bair might even be safe if sheilded.

It's a phenomenon. I don't think we are going to see sourspot combos become a playstyle, anytime soon.
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

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i agree with some of what you wrote proverbs and disagree with some parts.

i to think sourspots can be used to combo or at least push the opponet away.

i disagree with the idea that zelda does not work well know that people block up-smash and can avoid din's fire. i feel if these old tactics are not working it is time to change them up. i feel a sign of a good smashers is somone who can change his style when need be ex: use din's not to hurt but to force the opponent into a spot or make him approach, use the running up-smash and when it gets predicatable run in so he shields and grab him or just dont do the running up-smash any more. most characters strategies from when the game first came out don't work anymore.

lastly i wish zelda was fat then she would weigh more and live longer

p.s if this seems like an angry post or a flame it is not you have valid points i am just saying if something does not work anymore then change the way you use it.
 

RyokoYaksa

BRoomer
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I think Zelda's weight is perfect, considering she's the first character too light to get CG'd by Dedede.
And nonsweetspotted Dairs lead to an easy footstool jump more often than not. I try not to combo weak kicks into sweetspotted kicks because the result is usually a less effective kick.
 

Proverbs

Smash Lord
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i agree with some of what you wrote proverbs and disagree with some parts.

i to think sourspots can be used to combo or at least push the opponet away.

i disagree with the idea that zelda does not work well know that people block up-smash and can avoid din's fire. i feel if these old tactics are not working it is time to change them up. i feel a sign of a good smashers is somone who can change his style when need be ex: use din's not to hurt but to force the opponent into a spot or make him approach, use the running up-smash and when it gets predicatable run in so he shields and grab him or just dont do the running up-smash any more. most characters strategies from when the game first came out don't work anymore.

lastly i wish zelda was fat then she would weigh more and live longer

p.s if this seems like an angry post or a flame it is not you have valid points i am just saying if something does not work anymore then change the way you use it.
I wasn't saying that Zelda is bad without those tactics (I don't think I said that at least o_O;; ), but what I was saying that those techniques were what made us love Brawl Zelda initially and then we slowly 'fell out of love with her' as our techniques weren't working anymore. That never happened to me, my friend just decided to main Zelda and so I changed my secondary to avoid mirror matches. And plus, I like originality.

And switching up your strategy is just common sense. I'd hope no smash player keeps using the same thing when it doesn't work--good or bad.


I think Zelda's weight is perfect, considering she's the first character too light to get CG'd by Dedede.
And nonsweetspotted Dairs lead to an easy footstool jump more often than not. I try not to combo weak kicks into sweetspotted kicks because the result is usually a less effective kick.
I don't combo weak kicks into sweetspots, that wasn't what I was saying. Or at least that's not what happened in the video I was talking about. I used a multitude of other attacks and then hit him with an f or d-smash to hit him off the edge and when he was recovering used a lightening kick (by that time if there was any stale move negation it'd be gone). That's the type of use I was talking about.
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

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proverbs if i got what your post ment wrong its b/c i read it a couple days before i posted so i might i forgot exactly what you said (to lazy to reread)

rvokoyaksa i was thinking heaver but still unable to be cg (wishfull thinking)
 

popsofctown

Smash Champion
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Are you sure Proverbs? You'd be amazed at how long move decay hangs around.

Since it's moderately relevant, i'm going to list all the things i've found that can regenerate the moves you like and degenerate the ones you don't, since i'm proud of my little list:
1. Balloons in Smashville
2. Shy guys in Yoshi's Island
3. Pikmin
4. Waddle Dees
5. Wario's Bike.
 

blueriku

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 16, 2005
Messages
312
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Riverside, CA
hmm intersting you might have something there but like iris already stated it can be risky but when you think about it, once you connect and even if you whiff for the most part your safe nothing happens since your too far away from your opponent the only way to really punish an L-Kick is to predict it, (bait and punish) and even then the lag is not that bad to where you take it hard. so to use sourspots might be a viable thing i no one thing i do when coming from the stage against low ranged char. is use L-Kick to scare them away and when i hit im able to recover and my opponent has to reposition them selfs.
 
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