VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[_lemons]

I CP'd DK64 against Marth one time, and I never got any edgeguards because he could go high to the platforms.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I CP'd DK64 against Marth one time, and I never got any edgeguards because he could go high to the platforms.

Try EGing the top platforms, then drop through when he's forced to go lower.

 

[Ocean]

marth's normally dislike FoD for some reason, i think it's good for him cause it's like yoshi's just the platform bs

the platforms are sort of hit and miss. if they are at a higher height, then they can work similar to yoshi's. if they are lower (which they are generally are), they are at an awkward height to be able to utilt/fair opponents, so they are basically only there to **** up his shorthopped aerials and grab game.

it's not bad for him, but it's not really good for him either, unless it's significantly worse for his opponent, like falco or falcon.

 

[GooeyBanana]

Hey, if I do a really quick dj bair on someone's shield, do I have enough time to dsmash before they cando anything so long as I dothe bair low enough? Or do I have to float cancel the bair to get it to come out fast enough?

 

[john!]

i'm fairly sure you have a 4 frame advantage with perfect timing on fc bair. dsmash comes out on frame 5, buffer spotdodge comes out on frame 2 (but dsmash will usually hit this), buffered roll comes out on frame 4 (i think), and grab comes out on frame 7. depends on how good you are with your timing.

if it's not float canceled then they can do whatever they want lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

john's numbers are all right to my knowledge, but i wanna add that buffering adds 1 frame more.

 

[Rosedemon]

I CP'd DK64 against Marth one time, and I never got any edgeguards because he could go high to the platforms.

If hes going for the top platform, go out there and hit him.

Marth shouldnt be allowed to not sweetspot. Ever.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

hey people i feel we should talk about the falcon MU more in depth. i feel like we should cover everything like how/which way to DI moves. One of major issues is that when i try to approach in the air i get naired, when i try ground approached i get grabbed, and if i try to play defensively i get grabbed. so my new plan is to bait falcon, at low dmgs when he jumps and is going for the nair i will try to CC it and punish. if he is running at me and i am not sure if he is going for a grab or is going to short hop late and nair i think i will try to approach to force his move. if he jumps i will CC and punish and if he keeps running and i think he is going to grab i will low FC nair. and if i approach i think i will go for more FC bairs and nairs. at higher dmg when CC is no longer a option i guess i will just shield and try to mind game and read to get hits not sure. I will also try to hold on to turnips a bit longer to make him have to think about what i will do with it. This is a preliminary plan for my next falcon match does this sound good so far? also if i get grabbed is there a specific way to DI or am i just ****ed? Also one thing i do know about the MU if how important edge guards are and i need to make sure i am on point in this area, i think its kinda easy to edge guard falcon on most stages b/c as long as u float near the edge so he cant grab it he has enough lag when/if he lands on the stage you can just float over to him and nair him off.

Also unrelated, whenever i pull out a ditto turnip i yell who's that pokemon. i find doing this prett funny and i support all peachs doing this

 

[GooeyBanana]

Ah ok, thanks for that John. I was just wondering because I can do really quick, decent distance-reaching bairs by just dj'ing and then DI'ing towards the opponent because the dj does that animation that kind of pushes her in the direction you DI pretty quickly. Only thing is, I can only do it with the C-stick =/ I guess I'll have to condition myself to dj, float, then drop a bair all in quick succession.

And god, is there any other important frame information I should know about Peach? Any evasive maneuvers you guys use in particular matchups? I'm trying to pick her up for my crew and because I think she's actually pretty fun =P

Also, what are the typical applications for dair? I figure do it sometimes right above the opponent's head when they're shielding...then I guess drop towards the end of the dair and dsmash shield or mindgame into like...grab or something?

I did not realize how important DI was for Peach >_<...especially in the Falcon and Fox matchups =X Marth & Sheik seem pretty dang hard to get in on, and Falco...eh...I dunno rofl. It's going to be fun learning all these matchups ^_^

EDIT: Oh yeah, who here uses Z for their aerials? I have no clue why I only do it with Peach...but it seems to be more convenient for my hands xP

EDIT2: I forgot something that Andale told me recently. I may have gotten this a little messed up...but I'm pretty sure he said that you should never really use Peach's JC grab? I realize it's better for chaingrabbing when you do it that way, but what are some other perks to using it instead of JC Grab?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

hey guys i was on the zelda boards like a week ago b/c i was thinking about using zelda vs jiggs since the peach vs jiggs MU is to boring. anyway i am not going to be using zelda vs jiggs but i did see this

Captain Falcon's downthrow sends at an angle of 65°
Assuming Captain Falcon is facing right, optimal DI is: 335°, or 25° below the horizontal.

Of course, since you're trying to maximize distance from Captain Falcon, optimal DI isn't always perpendicular DI, however, optimal DI in this case results in an adjusted trajectory of 47°, which is the best outcome.

i also saw this

oh, I forgot I had this

peach feels similar to zelda in fall speed and floatyness so i was wondering if peach could do the same. Also since i often have to practice alone i was wondering is someone could test this out?

 

[MacD]

at a higher percent yes peach can, but zelda is floatier and has less hit stun

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I just want to remind all the peach players that their character is heavier than marth.



step off the cake *****es

 

[MacD]

2 things

marth is obviously an anorexic queen

our dress is kinda heavy, dsmash isn't going to do **** if we wear a cute summer dress

 

[Wake]

MacD speaks the truth.

 

[DoH]

It's the chain chomps growing under there

 

[Queen]

Aren't those in the bust?

 

[ConnorTheKid]

why does Peach suck so much?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

^peach is just to good for u to understand

 

[KirbyKaze]

Her movement game, basically.

And relatively average range compared to Marth, Puff, and Sheik.

Doesn't really have a reliable stationary launcher she can do from the ground either (Sheik/space animal u-tilts).

Options on the edge are limited.

Otherwise she's beastly. Her onstage game is amazing. Her recovery is also way above average.

 

[Rosedemon]

Armada was viewing this thread about 2 minutes ago.

Just thought you guys should know.

 

[john!]

He should've challenged Connor to a money match.

 

[bladeofapollo]

Her movement game, basically.

And relatively average range compared to Marth, Puff, and Sheik.

Doesn't really have a reliable stationary launcher she can do from the ground either (Sheik/space animal u-tilts).

Options on the edge are limited.

Otherwise she's beastly. Her onstage game is amazing. Her recovery is also way above average.

Her off-stage options are pretty great too. Floating out-->Bair is safer than most other edge-guards in the game (in terms of being intercepted). Also Nair could count as a stationary-ground launcher as it happens at ground level. It costs her a float, but she loses a recovery option other characters wouldn't have anyway.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Her offstage game is decent but hindered by (*gasp*) her awful movement speed and crappy second jump. Floating out and Bairing is not as good as what Sheik, Fox, and many others can do to the recoveries you'd float offstage > Bair.

Nair is not a launcher.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i heard this like 2 or 3 years ago so i might be misremembering but i heard peach has the 5th best air speed in the game. Also what makes peach great is her ability to FC, and extremely fast aerials. Also inst d-tilt a launcher. or and her gimping game is great but slightly harder to use then others since once u float u r kinda stuck on the level u r floating but when used correctly her off stage game is on the same level as the characters with the best off stage game bar (or bair jiggs lol bad puns) jiggs. its true that her movement game is not the best but thanks to the strange mechanic which is floating her movement game is good enough

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach's D-tilt is not applicable to as many situations as Sheik (as a character) and Fox/Falco's U-tilt. For a variety of reasons. Namely its speed and the fact that it hits down on airborne opponents, which basically necessitates your opponent being grounded. So it has more situational factors and doesn't come out instantly. Just because a move launches does not make it a reliable launcher, which is one of the stipulations I had listed. Her ability to start combos just isn't as good as the other good characters (sans Puff, but Puff has OHKOs so bleh).

She doesn't have much momentum when she jumps and travels poorly vertically. Her offstage game isn't as good as the other top characters consequently. She can't go as low to gimp as Sheik and Fox. She doesn't get offstage as quickly as Puff or Sheik. She doesn't cover as many options effectively in most situations because she misses out on some key edgeguard techniques as a result of her awkward double jump (no ledgehop aerial game, basically).

 

[Rosedemon]

Not being able to ledgehop aerial sucks so much as peach (GOOD ledgehop aerial, dont be dumb).

Also, peach floats at the same speed she runs, so I highly doubt she has the 5th best aerial movement. Even if she did, the fact that she can really only move in one direction limits her options.

 

[KirbyKaze]

not being able to double jump to do last minute corrections to your spacing a la sheik/marth/fox/falco/puff/falcon/ganon blows too

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i would agree with her d-tilt being situational but not b/c it spikes people in the air, more b/c of the range and speed. the only reason i even mentioned it was b/c of what armada is able to do out of a d-tilt. (until i saw armada i thought the move was more or less useless)

its true her vertical jump is not the best but her horizontal movement is amazing. she may not be able to go as low as some characters but she can go out much further then the characters u mentioned above, plus if u save her 2nd jump she does have the ability to go pretty low for gimps. Plus if u add in her ability to cover the edge by floating next to or right over it she is very efficient at edge guarding. Also her ledge game is better then u are saying, if u save your float u can use it right off the ledge which adds some interesting options to peach.

her double jump is kinda awkward but you do get use to it

edit: also if u mess up an edge guard with peach u r often much safer then if u mess up as sheik or really most characters

 

[john!]

a launcher? i use ground fc uair a lot when i'm comboing. zero lag and free combos at low/mid percents on most characters.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

a launcher? i use ground fc uair a lot when i'm comboing. zero lag and free combos at low/mid percents on most characters.

i have heard people talk about doing this before but i never tried adding it to my game and forgot about the option. it seems like a great idea thanks for reminding me John!

 

[Germs Lady]

here is the latest and greatest vid by onski - please repost if you can to your Facebook or Tweet it <3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9yakiAdfX0&feature=channel_video_title

 

[Teczer0]

Germs Lady - I understand you're trying to spread the word but unfortunately I can't have you advertise it everywhere .

If you can keep it at a minimum at the social threads. I'm sorry, and I wish for the best

 

[KirbyKaze]

i would agree with her d-tilt being situational but not b/c it spikes people in the air, more b/c of the range and speed. the only reason i even mentioned it was b/c of what armada is able to do out of a d-tilt. (until i saw armada i thought the move was more or less useless)

If it's situational then it's not as spammable or easily slotted into combos like the others. So yeah, you agree. Why did you argue again?

its true her vertical jump is not the best but her horizontal movement is amazing. she may not be able to go as low as some characters but she can go out much further then the characters u mentioned above, plus if u save her 2nd jump she does have the ability to go pretty low for gimps. Plus if u add in her ability to cover the edge by floating next to or right over it she is very efficient at edge guarding. Also her ledge game is better then u are saying, if u save your float u can use it right off the ledge which adds some interesting options to peach.

I know about grabbing the edge without float and saving it so you can work offstage >_>

The ability to go further offstage is kind of cool but there reaches a threshold where that ability is superfluous; Peach (and those other characters) could have taken advantage of the limitations that the opponent being so far offstage brings (reduced recovery angles, hoggability, and other stuff). In fact, her low speed often makes going that far a bad idea anyway simply because the onstage edgeguard (or floating out only a bit) would have been easier and equally lethal.

On that note, offstage effectiveness is not just a reflection of how far your character goes offstage to hit them; it's also how fast it took you to get there. Which Peach loses points in.

her double jump is kinda awkward but you do get use to it

It's still a bad double jump and she misses out on stuff because of it. Getting "used to it" mitigates some of the noob mistakes people make with it, but it still doesn't work as effectively as a normal double jump. She still has limitations given specifically to her because of it.

edit: also if u mess up an edge guard with peach u r often much safer then if u mess up as sheik or really most characters

Broad statement and in my experience not even true. I see many Peaches die because they lose their float in an untimely way because they dropped an edggeuard.

Furthermore, because Peach can't abuse invincibility in the same way that Sheik and the others can, her messing up an edgeguard often means she's getting hit. Coupled with the fact that she dies a lot earlier to Firefox / Illusion > Uair and Firebird than most characters, and her crappy double jump makes phantasm meteors hurt that much more... I dunno. I can't really agree with that statement.






FC Uair is a somewhat reasonable argument but it's also much, much slower than the other things I listed and doesn't work as well as an anti-air launcher. It's just less of an all-purpose move and less commonly applicable than the others mentioned.

 

[Rosedemon]

Im still voting for you Zohreh!

 

[john!]

FC Uair is a somewhat reasonable argument but it's also much, much slower than the other things I listed and doesn't work as well as an anti-air launcher. It's just less of an all-purpose move and less commonly applicable than the others mentioned.

yeah, it's not a launcher that you can throw out as an approach due to its high startup lag, but it works well situationally in combos. dash attack -> grab -> upthrow on fastfallers (when you can't chaingrab) gives you less options than dash attack -> fc uair. i just don't see peaches using it that much. it *****.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

If it's situational then it's not as spammable or easily slotted into combos like the others. So yeah, you agree. Why did you argue again?


I know about grabbing the edge without float and saving it so you can work offstage >_>

The ability to go further offstage is kind of cool but there reaches a threshold where that ability is superfluous; Peach (and those other characters) could have taken advantage of the limitations that the opponent being so far offstage brings (reduced recovery angles, hoggability, and other stuff). In fact, her low speed often makes going that far a bad idea anyway simply because the onstage edgeguard (or floating out only a bit) would have been easier and equally lethal.

On that note, offstage effectiveness is not just a reflection of how far your character goes offstage to hit them; it's also how fast it took you to get there. Which Peach loses points in.


It's still a bad double jump and she misses out on stuff because of it. Getting "used to it" mitigates some of the noob mistakes people make with it, but it still doesn't work as effectively as a normal double jump. She still has limitations given specifically to her because of it.


Broad statement and in my experience not even true. I see many Peaches die because they lose their float in an untimely way because they dropped an edggeuard.

Furthermore, because Peach can't abuse invincibility in the same way that Sheik and the others can, her messing up an edgeguard often means she's getting hit. Coupled with the fact that she dies a lot earlier to Firefox / Illusion > Uair and Firebird than most characters, and her crappy double jump makes phantasm meteors hurt that much more... I dunno. I can't really agree with that statement.

I didn't argue, u said she had no launcher i just pointed out she did.

her double jump has weaknesses but she also gets double jump cancels with it, u keep talking about her vertical weakness which she does have to some degree but u ignore her amazing horizontal strength.

broad statement maybe, not true i disagree. take sheik if sheik goes for an edge guard and misses that could mean death due to her laggy and all around poor recovery, while the same is not true for peach if she misses an edge guard. And losing your float b/c u missed an edge guard is a player mistake not a character weakness.

the next statement i am not sure how to reply to it. should i say that fox's upair is sdiable so u could avoid dying that way, or should i say that most the time i personally messed up my edge guard and got hit its ended in a trade since the common used edge guard moves such as nair and bair stay out for a while so even if u mistime the moves u still get to trade so follow ups by the opponent are not likely. Or when u said she cant abuse invincibility did u mean on a edgehog? like sheik has the invincible up-B trick? if so i guess she is missing that but many characters dont have that so i am guessing u mean her ability to use the invincibility from the edge plus jumping off the edge to edge guard

lastly peach's double jump gains a decent amount of height the problem with it is that its slow not the lack of height.

honestly i dont know what this whole thing is about? why are we comparing her to other characters when she is very unique and why are we not focusing on what really makes her great. such as almost completely lagless aerials, with proper FC she is safer on shield then anyone but fox and falco. Her recovery is amazing, shes very good at bating and has a very strong punish game, she has a solid projectile which she can spam and help her approach.

there is more but this post is long enough.

edit: not saying this s a good idea but u mention not having a launcher thats anti air, both her up-smash and up-tilt give her some invincibility on her head (with up-smash its on her hand and arm as well) so even through maybe not a great idea they can technically be used as anti air launchers

Spoiler

this edit is kinda a troll post

edit edit: just looked it up peach does have the 5th best air speed

 

[bladeofapollo]

She has the 5th best air speed from neutral. Falcon dashing forward for half a second and jumping covers the better part of FD.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

She has the 5th best air speed from neutral. Falcon dashing forward for half a second and jumping covers the better part of FD.

yes and i am pretty sure from neutral is what we were talking about. if we want to do it the way you are saying falcon probably gets around FD faster then jiggs.

 

[Rosedemon]

yes and i am pretty sure from neutral is what we were talking about. if we want to do it the way you are saying falcon probably gets around FD faster then jiggs.

Why are we talking about from neutral? That doesnt really apply when we're talking about punishing other peoples aerials, or simply getting to an edgeguard fast enough.

I feel as if all your points are just reiteration of things we all know, but dont apply in the grand scheme of things.

For instances, you state dtilt is a launcher. Yes, we know this. However KK is comparing it to the more (whole lot more) practical tilts like shieks "any"tilt and fox/falcos uptilt. These are fast and efficient moves that beat out a lot of aerials from other characters.

Stop telling us things we know, and start listening to what KK is actually saying.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

^ really man i already said i didnt think d-tilt is a great launcher just pointing out she has one, then btw it was pointed out you could also use up-air. and of course i talk about peach from neutral she has good air speed and i never have had problems getting to an edge guard unless i knock the other guy across a stage. you are acting like KK is right about everything he said and that he isnt saying things we all know. So just tell me now should i not post if i think someone is misinformed if they are a better known and better player then me.

What i think KK is trying to do is point out some of the limitations peach has and i just think he ether said the wrong thing (wording) or is off, i might not be the best peach in the world but i know her very well. Maybe u should listen to what i am saying (like read my post were i agreed that d-tilt is a situational launcher).

and whats up with these angry (sound angry when read) posts? i mean KK said i was arguing with him. i dont remember arguing with anyone. people are taking this to personally. i am not attacking KK as a person i dont know him at all i just think he was off target on what he was saying. and not even wrong about all that he was saying.

edit: i went back and i missed when he said a missed when he said a reliable launcher. but all that means is pointing her d-tilt launches is the one thing which was unnecessary to say.