KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
As the guy who wrote one of the guides for Fox shield pressure, this does and does not work.
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VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)
- Thread starter Cia
- Start date
The Irish Mafia
Banned via Administration
see that's just asking for a post to the tune of "how do you mean, big daddy professor KK?"
Wake
Smash Master
Yeah explain KirbyKaze pleaaase? I'm pretty skeptical of all of this, but I dunno.
Fortress | Sveet
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I think he means it works in the sense that physically it is possible, but it doesn't work because its obviously not a solid plan
edit- KK correct me if im wrong lol
edit- KK correct me if im wrong lol
bladeofapollo
Smash Ace
I'd like to make an addendum to this advice. The idea when you're getting hit by a multi-hit move is to mash grab in shield (to get out of shield), tank the hit, CROUCH CANCEL, and continue to mash grab. I saw Scar doing this about a year ago and it's good. I don't think you can grab Fox's Dair, though, because the hits are too fast. If you're spaced back a bit, however, you won't get hit by the whole drill and this trick might work.
tl;dr: crouch-cancel -> grab
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
Are you trying to grab inbetween hits or inbetween the drill and the shine?
wtf this is witchcraft
wtf this is witchcraft
You start attempting to grab during the last hit before fox lands and before the shine comes out. The window to grab is. . .effectively, the same amount of frames it takes most characters to grab. We can assume there is a margin of error here in either players favor.
Risk/reward in this situation is for you to decide. I might berecording some matches with a friend tonight so I'll ask him to drill my shield as much as possible. I know that I've been grabbed before my character even lands so. . . moral of the story, drill is not very good on shields. It's not awful but its definitely not extremely safe either.
Risk/reward in this situation is for you to decide. I might berecording some matches with a friend tonight so I'll ask him to drill my shield as much as possible. I know that I've been grabbed before my character even lands so. . . moral of the story, drill is not very good on shields. It's not awful but its definitely not extremely safe either.
baka4moé
Smash Champion
strange, ive never been able to sg drill against some fox players. maybe im just doing it wrong...
Wake
Smash Master
I have never been able to either. I agree with DoH, this is witchcraft... at least until KirbyKaze explains this further 
eet
Smash Ace
Fox's frames would be at -9 from a Dair > Landing Lag w/ Lcancel and I think shine doesn't reflect until frame 4. so 13 frames (or 13/60th of a second) from Fox hitting the ground to his shine hitbox initializing.
And so, there sits Peach in her shield. She CAN grab -- but, it takes her grab 7-8 frames to come out. (I'm assuming the standard grab has the same length as a standing shield grab).
So basically, she has to start grabbing on the first four frames of Fox's lag otherwise Fox's shine will come out before her grab. But, since this is Melee, you can expect the timing to be weird and inconsistent because of the varying degrees of shield stun based on the spacing of Fox's dair.
And so, there sits Peach in her shield. She CAN grab -- but, it takes her grab 7-8 frames to come out. (I'm assuming the standard grab has the same length as a standing shield grab).
So basically, she has to start grabbing on the first four frames of Fox's lag otherwise Fox's shine will come out before her grab. But, since this is Melee, you can expect the timing to be weird and inconsistent because of the varying degrees of shield stun based on the spacing of Fox's dair.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
^ don't talk about stuff you don't understand please
edit:
Fox can be at -6/-7/(maybe another value, I forget) after he l-cancels his dair on a shield. This means there is sometimes a window where you can shield grab him, depending on how he did his dair. This has to do with whether he hit the last hit of his dair immediately as he landed, or whether it occurred a bit before that.
If he is at -6, you cannot shield grab him because your grab takes 7 frames to come out. On the frame your grab comes out, provided they were also perfect with their input, they would have their shine out and you would be hit by it. However, if he was at -7, your grab would win by a frame (you hit on 7, he hits on 8).
All of this assumes frame perfection, though, which is unrealistic. All it means in real games is that sometimes you'll be able to get it seemingly for no reason but other times trying to grab them will result in you being shined (possibly into a combo).
edit2:
I think shield DIing away from drill and THEN shield grabbing is probably much, much better anyway* just because you can sometimes make him miss the last hit of his dair on your shield, which makes anything he does after the dair wildly unsafe. Everything becomes gravy. It works pretty well with Sheik because her shield doesn't cover her feet so sometimes as he's finishing his descent it whiffs and he gets what I'd imagine is something like -10/-11 or so (not sure of exact value, never calc'd it). Since Peach's shield is sort of like Sheik's in that it doesn't really cover her feet, it'll probably work for her too.
*Be aware they can sometimes "track" your shield DI by having sufficient forward momentum so this will sometimes not work. Smash is inconsistent.
edit:
Fox can be at -6/-7/(maybe another value, I forget) after he l-cancels his dair on a shield. This means there is sometimes a window where you can shield grab him, depending on how he did his dair. This has to do with whether he hit the last hit of his dair immediately as he landed, or whether it occurred a bit before that.
If he is at -6, you cannot shield grab him because your grab takes 7 frames to come out. On the frame your grab comes out, provided they were also perfect with their input, they would have their shine out and you would be hit by it. However, if he was at -7, your grab would win by a frame (you hit on 7, he hits on 8).
All of this assumes frame perfection, though, which is unrealistic. All it means in real games is that sometimes you'll be able to get it seemingly for no reason but other times trying to grab them will result in you being shined (possibly into a combo).
edit2:
I think shield DIing away from drill and THEN shield grabbing is probably much, much better anyway* just because you can sometimes make him miss the last hit of his dair on your shield, which makes anything he does after the dair wildly unsafe. Everything becomes gravy. It works pretty well with Sheik because her shield doesn't cover her feet so sometimes as he's finishing his descent it whiffs and he gets what I'd imagine is something like -10/-11 or so (not sure of exact value, never calc'd it). Since Peach's shield is sort of like Sheik's in that it doesn't really cover her feet, it'll probably work for her too.
*Be aware they can sometimes "track" your shield DI by having sufficient forward momentum so this will sometimes not work. Smash is inconsistent.
I'm actually really curious too.
If drill shine is safe on shield I quit everything and am gonna be a fox main.
If drill shine is safe on shield I quit everything and am gonna be a fox main.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
It's safe of shield sometimes, so I don't think your situation changes. You're still only a part-time space animal 
:<It's safe of shield sometimes, so I don't think your situation changes. You're still only a part-time space animal
I saw your edit and clears stuff up now =3
Very interesting stuff.
Also, I haven't played Fox much as of late so my fox is being laid off =3
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I play Fox in friendlies because u-smashing floaties never gets old.
I could u-smash Peach forever.
I could u-smash Peach forever.
Composeur
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2007
- Messages
- 518
Thanks for the clarification, KK. If the fox were to adapt to Peach (or whoever) shield DIing away from him by jumping forward farther, would it be possible for Peach to adapt further by shield DIing toward his drill so he crosses over her? I've never seen this happen and realized what was going on, so I have no clue how much flexibility shield DI might provide in this case.
Also, my understanding of shield DI is that it's like smash DI (requires smashing the control stick; does not work with the C-stick). Is that correct?
Also, my understanding of shield DI is that it's like smash DI (requires smashing the control stick; does not work with the C-stick). Is that correct?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
At some point I had my friend trained to SDI through my Fox if he say me approaching with Dairs, and trained to SDI them away if I was doing stationary Dairs (or just didn't have the running start). So yeah, I don't see why it would be different with shield DI.
Shield DI behaves like smash DI in that you need to move the control stick during hitlag.
Shield DI behaves like smash DI in that you need to move the control stick during hitlag.
eet
Smash Ace
Woah there, turbo.
How can you say I dont know what Im talking about and then re-explain exactly as I said like it makes more sense.
Also, Unless you're accounting for stun on the other person due to the shieldstun of Fox's dair(or something? Im genuinely curious), I really dont get where you pulled -6/-7 from -- SDM's framedata says -9 on Fox's dair l-cancelled, and he will still have to shine right? ...-10? Either way, not a huge margin for Peach :\ Never thought about shield DI to propagate the grab though ...legit.
Oh, I was stupid about shine, tho -- its of course active on 1, it's that it doesn't reflect til 4 lulz. [8]
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I pulled those numbers out of your mother.
I can verify this.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
It was quite the evening. We should do that again sometime.
MacD
Banned via Administration
all your numbers were different from KK's, ergo the you don't know what you are talking about part
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Okay, more serious answer time.
This is where I pulled my statistics from. I believe it is correct because it was made after SDM's data and I think it's more up to date. If someone like Strong Bad or Sveet sees something worth correcting then I'm all ears.
The only things (that I know about) that I don't consider in that thread are:
1) Stale moves; I'm assuming everything is at max power - I'm not sure how the decay affects it so I wrote it for full power
2) Whether you can shine the first frame of being free from the aerial lag
I was always under the impression you can, because all guides before mine (Mogwai's Falco thing, SCOTU's stuff, etc.) had shine as immediately actionable after the aerial so I assumed it just works that way. I am not entirely sure this is true. If it is not, then add 1 frame. In which case, Fox's drill is always shield-grabbable but you need to be perfect.
I'm fairly sure you can shine immediately because of an experiment someone did with waveshining or something (it may have been Cactuar?) a long time ago. But if not then whatever.
This is where I pulled my statistics from. I believe it is correct because it was made after SDM's data and I think it's more up to date. If someone like Strong Bad or Sveet sees something worth correcting then I'm all ears.
The only things (that I know about) that I don't consider in that thread are:
1) Stale moves; I'm assuming everything is at max power - I'm not sure how the decay affects it so I wrote it for full power
2) Whether you can shine the first frame of being free from the aerial lag
I was always under the impression you can, because all guides before mine (Mogwai's Falco thing, SCOTU's stuff, etc.) had shine as immediately actionable after the aerial so I assumed it just works that way. I am not entirely sure this is true. If it is not, then add 1 frame. In which case, Fox's drill is always shield-grabbable but you need to be perfect.
I'm fairly sure you can shine immediately because of an experiment someone did with waveshining or something (it may have been Cactuar?) a long time ago. But if not then whatever.
Wake
Smash Master
Well that certainly helps. Thanks KK!
Fortress | Sveet
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Played all peach tonight and even two-stocked ORLY's falcon once. Went into the night barely being able to space FC bairs and now i can do the fast FC nairs on shields (i only do one into jabs usually tho)
Why didn't anyone tell me peach's 2nd jab was so ****ing broken?
Why didn't anyone tell me peach's 2nd jab was so ****ing broken?
eet
Smash Ace
Cool info, thanks -- never seen your thread.
And my mom is a saint :O
And my mom is a saint :O
john!
Smash Hero
peach players are good at keeping secrets
darkatma
Smash Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECSKHYtUohA
My only set for now...
Should be one with G. Vice coming up soon from pools
Critique?
I know my peach sucks, I can tell that I'm not spacing things properly, and often overstretch/make unsafe options
My only set for now...
Should be one with G. Vice coming up soon from pools
Critique?
I know my peach sucks, I can tell that I'm not spacing things properly, and often overstretch/make unsafe options
john!
Smash Hero
atma! we have to play at the next big mw tournament.
Wake
Smash Master
Dmac was here in MN for Memorial day.. I didn't get to play him though I like the bomb death in the first match haha
I like the bomb death in the first match haha
darkatma
Smash Hero
For sure john, for sure.
I love peach dittos
I love peach dittos
MacD
Banned via Administration
me and vanz gave up on smash so we can be competitive LoL players
get at the cosby sweaters!!!!!! dreamhack 2012!!!!!!
get at the cosby sweaters!!!!!! dreamhack 2012!!!!!!
Wake
Smash Master
I'm starting to feel like every smasher plays LoL except me...
Wake
Smash Master
I'm an outcast. How sad.
Fortress | Sveet
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I played LoL but thought it wasnt nearly as good as dota so i quit. Plus their character selection system is lame (play a gajillion games or buy the character) and leveling up stats makes it less skill and more grinding.
Sim
Smash Apprentice
I can't stand those games where competition is involved and the players don't start at the same level, such as LoL
Games such as Smash and Counter-Strike never get old because it doesn't matter how much trashtalk you can say beforehand, which "level" you are or any other advancement crap: Let's play and we'll see who's the best because we start on equal terms. A fair fight.
I loved DotA for that too. Everyone starts equal and then prove their skill.
Games such as Smash and Counter-Strike never get old because it doesn't matter how much trashtalk you can say beforehand, which "level" you are or any other advancement crap: Let's play and we'll see who's the best because we start on equal terms. A fair fight.
I loved DotA for that too. Everyone starts equal and then prove their skill.