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VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

Get Low

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 20, 2011
Messages
948
Location
Niles, Ohio
I have a question. When should I run up to someone and do a fast FC'ed nair as opposed to simply running up to a character and dash attacking them?
 

thesage

Smash Hero
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I never really run up and do a fast fc nair. I usually just dash attack or grab and make them guess what I'm going to do.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Wildly spam up air against that Sheik. A better counter to the platform stuff he's doing is to cover the platform zone preemptively with something like up air, or to use really crisp movement to cross his landing when he comes off the platform (you have to avoid the needle to do this), or to get directly under him and then pressure from there (or see if you can bait him into something stupid and d-tilt/dash attack into generic Peach monster combo).

I think you need to pay attention to his jumping habits a bit more, especially at low percents. You have a lot of opportunities to dash attack him through his aerial (or before it comes out). He also likes to full jump around your shield; FC nair or bair OOS on these would give you a chance to hit him really hard. I think you should experiment with running under him more into crouch (at super low percents). Again, it sounds nooby, but hitting down smashes on low percent Sheik is really good.

I think you could benefit from jabbing to cover your landing zone in some of these situations. I saw you get grabbed after your Fair a bunch of times. I know it's nooby, but jab and/or sidestep are actually good counters to this style of grab attempt.

Throw him off the level more.

I think you do a lot of your Fairs in close quarters too low to the ground. He hits you out of them a bunch. If you're gonna Fair do it from a safer height and see if you can dodge his move and then punish with the Fair, or simply do a faster move if you want to keep pressure on him like that. I think you got f-smashed out of one by him (clearly a mistake on his part, but the same height that would counter the f-smash would also counter dash attack, grab, dash cancel d-smash, and f-tilt [which are all legitimate choices on Sheik's part]).
 

MacD

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
6,891
Location
probably on a platform
why is little england going sheik, what a weirdo

kk, i should post my vids from apex and have you critque them

hell, i should probably watch my vids from apex and see what i learn considering i've yet to do that LOOOOOOOOOOL
 

darkatma

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 10, 2005
Messages
5,747
Location
St Louis, Missouri/Fremont, CA
@ Quaz

Your timing for hitting shields is off. There was one part where you were doing bairs and then dashing away, but when he came up with a shield you missed a fastfall and dash away and got grabbed during the bair.

A shield heavy sheik means he's not very confident.. you should switch up your close quarter FC nairs with some grabs.

Also understand that peach's dash attack goes under just about all of sheik's aerials. Sheik is so tall that her legs peek out from under her during the fair, and for the bair she sticks one of her legs down, perfect for dash attacking.

In the battlefield match, you weren't under sheik enough. Get directly under her and upair. At the same time though, be mindful of where a campy sheik can most easily come down and swipe at you. Basically, most sheik's forms of approach involve wavedashing or running off the 3 platforms for quick hits with bair and fair. Either be directly under the edges of the platform and do some high priority moves, or learn to avoid the area around where sheik can hit.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
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Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,545
Been messing around with Peach a lot in friendlies lately. I should post some vids up sometime :]
 

Sim

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 28, 2010
Messages
167
Location
Quebec City
Well, this was an interesting set.

I might not be KirbyKaze, but I noticed a few things. My friend's a marth main so I am starting to know the match-up. :p

You have way too many SDs. I know this is not quite "tactical" but in the end it is, because I play Peach mainly for the fact you rarely "give yourself" to the other with an SD, unlike the spacies, falcon, or other quick characters. So yeah, don't miss out on those up-Bs and stuff, to not give a life to the other. Peach is hard to kill for Marth on nearly all stages, so dying like that gives a huge advantage to him.

Also, you have problems edgeguarding his Marth. He DI's fully upwards, which means an edgehog will rarely get the kill, which you understood as much. But he has to recover nonetheless, and you prevented him from doing so about 1 time out of 10. Observe him, figure out when he will double jump for that is critical. A marth who used up his double jump is much, much easier to edgeguard. I see you tried a few times to float below stage and nair, and though it missed, it was a good try. Mix it up, what Marth does to recover will depend heavily on what you do to prevent him. Put pressure on him when he tries to recover from high so he has to go for the ledge, so you can go for the lightshield-drop ledgehog. Don't automatically throw your turnips to edgeguard him, cuz as I said, the Marth is closely looking at you so if you mix up the throw time it will be harder for him to evade it. When you see him double jump, that's when you can float below stage and nair, or throw a turnip downwards, etc.

Uair him more, you want Marth above you not under you. I see you Uair'd him a couple times, which is not enough. I know he was DI'ing good but still, you never used dtilt which is a good move and spaces you well against marth, and leads to good follow-ups if he doesn't DI well, like 2-3 uairs.

Also, I see you tried all kinds of things against a high-percent Marth but uair will almost always kill him quite fast because those Marths DI upwards because of their recoveries so you could be surprised what results uair can yeild at high percents.

at about 8:30 you hit him twice with your grab before forward throwing, which gave him a lot of time to DI upwards the fthrow, while a quick fthrow can sometimes take a Marth by surprise, and his DI sucks and so he is forced to recover into a ledgegrab and waste his double jump, so you cna edgeguard him quite efficiently. All because of a quick fthrow, so keep that in mind!

Also, don't shield-roll into a Marth, unless you end up behind him. You did at about 8 min 30s and I think you died from it, not sure, but it cost you a lot of %

Grab Marth more. Dthrow can lead into another Dthrow if Marth doesn't DI away (and they often DI upwards by reflex so it works sometimes), and if he does you can still techchase and put more pressure with a spaced dtilt (dash attack, fair don't work if he's quick). UThrow puts Marth above you, which is exactly what you want. Instant Fthrow can lead to edgeguard, so it is good as well. Peach has a good grab range so use it, even though it's not as good as Marth, it's still good.

In the end, I think you're doing good but those SDs mixed up with the poor edgeguarding cost you the set. You gotta work on that. And use uair more, keep Marth above you.
 

VA

Smash Hero
Joined
May 18, 2006
Messages
5,004
Location
Brighton, UK
Whatever! Ness Peach is ****ing awful. I 3 stocked mofo with peach at apex, and I was sucking hard the whole tournament. He switched fox and nearly won by camping me sooooooooooooooo hard.
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
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Mar 14, 2011
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Actually, I'd argue that Peach doesn't dominate nearly as many low-tiers as, say, everyone above her (sans Puff, perhaps). Of course, those like Bowser and Kirby are slaughter-fests, but I can see Ness/Peach not being absolutely terrible (maybe 65-35 or even 6-4? I don't know that much about it, lol)
 

thesage

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I play both characters. Peach vs. Ness is ****ing awful for Ness. Turnips plus easy edgeguard = sad Ness. He can combo Peach, but she can cc a lot of his hits and pressure him with turnips.
 

Max?

Smash Champion
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I would agree that Ness/Peach is most likely horrible. But Mofo is on that 2012 metagame, you never know.
 

ShroudedOne

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Whenever I see that now, half my mind think crouch cancel, the other half thinks crowd control. Fudge.
 

The Irish Mafia

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cping you to Mute at a MDZ tourney
you can't cc any of his aerials except nair which is like useless and he can make you look like an absolute fool for trying to cc dair or bair. Also she's one of the few high tiers he has a speed advantage on, which he can really work. you can't shield stab him with dsmash because he's too short, and trying to ledgeguard him is basically a scary-*** game of chicken because his upb is invuln for the first 10 frames after PKT2 begins, and getting too close can result in a reverse hit, which frequently puts you offscreen with no float. Also he can airdodge like a ***** because his ledge sweetspot is 2nd to only doc's. Bair kills off the sides, uair kills off the top, and fair beats all your ****.
 

Rosedemon

Smash Champion
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Peach vs lowtiers can be reall dumb if you dont know what you're doing.

I feel like this is only true of Peach and Marth (out of the top tiers) because there is rarely anything they can abuse (foxs upthrow-upair, shieks down throw, falcos 150805915159% combos on every character in the game, jiggs fabulous edgeguarding)

Learning matchups is dumb, thats why everyone should purchase a pocket Shiek.
 

Little England

Smash Master
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Jan 14, 2008
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Purdue, W Lafayette IN Rancho Cucamonga, SoCal
you can't cc any of his aerials except nair which is like useless and he can make you look like an absolute fool for trying to cc dair or bair. Also she's one of the few high tiers he has a speed advantage on, which he can really work. you can't shield stab him with dsmash because he's too short, and trying to ledgeguard him is basically a scary-*** game of chicken because his upb is invuln for the first 10 frames after PKT2 begins, and getting too close can result in a reverse hit, which frequently puts you offscreen with no float. Also he can airdodge like a ***** because his ledge sweetspot is 2nd to only doc's. Bair kills off the sides, uair kills off the top, and fair beats all your ****.
^these things are true. esp the thing about Ness' recovery. He contorts his body really weird depending on if you double jump using the forward dj or the back dj. Combine this with his airdodge and a protective fair and you have a recovery that is not thaaat bad.
 

leffen

Smash Champion
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Stockholm, Sweden
you can also do the thing hboxs ness did against macd and just aim the up b so when you get hit by the turnips you get stopped by the up B lol


you also kinda need to realize that while the matchup may be 70-30 in todays metagame, if there were as many ness players as peach player (and had a armada) people would probably think its 60-40 at worst.

Low tiers are just hilariously underdeveloped at this point
 

thesage

Smash Hero
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Yes I do.

I wrote a really long response about the Peach vs. Ness matchup, but it got deleted by smashboards trolling me. In short just throw more turnips and grab the edge to edgeguard him if you don't know how to **** his recovery. The only Ness I would be worried about playing is Vanz', and even then I'm pretty sure I have a chance against it lol.
 

Rosedemon

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
2,760
How to beat Ness (I actually do have a fair amount of Ness experience):

Pocket Shiek.

The end.
 

Rosedemon

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
2,760
tikgnweiothweiothweuiohtioehtiohweui

LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOO SHROUDED

I just got your sig, im ****ing dying right now
 

Max?

Smash Champion
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Falco Bair
Yes I do.

I wrote a really long response about the Peach vs. Ness matchup, but it got deleted by smashboards trolling me. In short just throw more turnips and grab the edge to edgeguard him if you don't know how to **** his recovery. The only Ness I would be worried about playing is Vanz', and even then I'm pretty sure I have a chance against it lol.
Play Mofo
 

Rosedemon

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
2,760
Im pretty sure I played Mofo in pools at Apex and it wasnt that hard.

But like I said, I have experience in the matchup so I wasnt caught off guard
 
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