Various Matchup Analysis and Thoughts

[Exdeath]

I figured we could do something to MK out of his Shuttle Loop at close range. I considered this, forgot about it and never tested it since I was at home and alone for the summer, but this might be semi-legit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81tzL0YMyH0
2:10 - 2:12

Not really seen a rob do this on a regular basis, so..... whatdoyasay?!

It doesn't work if Meta Knight buffer-cancels the Up-B.

 

[Mister Eric]

It doesn't work if Meta Knight buffer-cancels the Up-B.

If we miss would we get punished? Or would we both look silly. I'm not 100% where at in MKs SL he can cancel it the quickest. I always just see it right before he hits the ground.

 

[CT Chia]

if mk cancels his upb properly rob cannot usmash him. however u can do some other things like fair i would imagine

 

[Teh Future]

wow you guys dont even know how to punish upb oos no wonder you think the matchup is horrible this is like some 08 discussion wtf.

also chibo you act like rob loosing to a mid tier character is surprising when rob looses to like 90% of the cast lmao

 

[Silhouette]

As we know ROB has some decent options for beating nado. The only problem is spaced nados so I ask this...How would stutter-stepping fSmash do vs MKs nado? especially if he were to start it too close to be fsmashed but at the level in the air that if you were able to get it off you would hit him. So maybe stutter-stepping can offset his spacing just enough to get that off. What do you say? seem doable?

ROB DOES NOT have decent options for beating nado, tho I'm probably the WORST ROB at fighting nado, and thats my biggest downfall against MK.

I need to try harder and not give up against him.

and stuttering or just walking Fsmashes are the best way to stop nado, you will usually have to tilt it upward since he approaches from our 1:30 o'clock, it can even make for a nice kill move if its not stale.

I'ma spend more time theory crafting the MK MU.

 

[-LzR-]

Why does everyone think Rob loses to everyone when he has only like 2 BAD matchups and others are pretty evenish. He doesn't really counter anyone which is sad.

 

[Leisha]

I guess most people say that because he really doesn't really counter anyone at all. (except for mayble low tiers, but who cant beat them?)

I guess just all the footstool gay doesn't help him either. But most of this is just my personal opinion.

Well I still love rob regardless, I'm just fed up with people telling me to use another character when I already have fun using rob :<

 

[ccst]

Even Ganon can do something to spammy meta knight, meta doesn't spam, learn your matchups please.

What can Ganondorf do?

-LzR-, R.O.B.'s baddest MUs are not only 2 LoL:

Meta Knight.
King Dedede.
Zero Suit Samus.
Mr. Game & Watch.
Toon Link.
Peach.
Snake.

IMO (and not in a specific order I think).

And R.O.B. is only a counter for maybe Ice Climbers. =/
People tell me to stop R.O.B. too, but I won't, I love him and is fun to play, but he kinda sucks when it comes to be a Middle Tier. =/

 

[Bees!]

What can Ganondorf do?

-LzR-, R.O.B.'s baddest MUs are not only 2 LoL:

Meta Knight.
King Dedede.
Zero Suit Samus. Do top ROBs even lose to top ZSSs?
Mr. Game & Watch.I disagree. Its even. This MU used to be bad before people learned that you can punish bAir and SDI out of stuff. Also gnw has no approach vs ROB(or anyone really)
Toon Link.TL Gets gimped, outranged and outcamped also he can't kill us reliably until at least 180. (running up to uSmash is easy to see coming)
Peach. Really? I play a pretty good Peach main in Colorado all the time and I would say that its pretty even
Snake.Its not that bad really, Just be smart with your projectiles.

IMO (and not in a specific order I think).

And R.O.B. is only a counter for maybe Ice Climbers. =/
People tell me to stop R.O.B. too, but I won't, I love him and is fun to play, but he kinda sucks when it comes to be a Middle Tier. =/

My response to that in the red. Also in japan isn't ROB like top 3?
I think the biggest reason why is(no offense to any top ROBs here) but we don't have a player at the level of some of the other characters best players.
Kirby has Chu
Sonic has X and Espy?
Marth has Mikehaze
Ness has FOW
Snake has Ally
MK has all of his mains souls

After watching Brood beat M2K I believe that the biggest thing is level of play for ROB. Thats not to say thats the only reason. Yes ROB has his shortcomings but then again so do Sonic, Kirby and Ness. Yet they have all placed in national tourneys and beaten national level MKs.

I think we just need to step it up is all.(Especially me.)

 

[Kid Nino]

My response to that in the red. Also in japan isn't ROB like top 3?
I think the biggest reason why is(no offense to any top ROBs here) but we don't have a player at the level of some of the other characters best players.
Kirby has Chu
Sonic has X and Espy?
Marth has Mikehaze
Ness has FOW
Snake has Ally
MK has all of his mains souls

After watching Brood beat M2K I believe that the biggest thing is level of play for ROB. Thats not to say thats the only reason. Yes ROB has his shortcomings but then again so do Sonic, Kirby and Ness. Yet they have all placed in national tourneys and beaten national level MKs.

I think we just need to step it up is all.(Especially me.)

I believe ZSS is still a bad match up for R.O.B. however G+W isn't as bad as it used to be at all. And TL isn't at such an advantage for it to be considered a bad matchup.

 

[Leisha]

Rob DOES NOT outcamp toon link.

No way, he can have 3 arrows shot by the time we get out one laser. Robs camping is very slow and too telegraphed.

 

[Mister Eric]

Yeah, I believe we are outcamped by TL too imo. What we do have on him though is the obstacle that our gyro creates for him. Then we have our moment of stage control.

 

[Silhouette]

My response to that in the red. Also in japan isn't ROB like top 3?

Blasphemy!!

Where did you hear such nonsense?


ZSS - Not that bad once you learn the MU, shes def. tough for ROB though.
Peach - Pretty Even, but can be tough. Shes like a faster version of us with less kill power.
G&W - Also not that bad

imo ROBs worst MUs:
MK
DDD
Snake
Falco
Olimar
ToonLink
KirinBlaze's Link

 

[Bees!]

I believe ZSS is still a bad match up for R.O.B. however G+W isn't as bad as it used to be at all. And TL isn't at such an advantage for it to be considered a bad matchup.

Honestly I don't even think that Tink has an advantage. He cannot get in to kill. His camping is easy to get around. and he gets into trouble offstage.

Rob DOES NOT outcamp toon link.

No way, he can have 3 arrows shot by the time we get out one laser. Robs camping is very slow and too telegraphed.

3 arrows that can barely travel across BF and move incredibly slow. Also there is a starting time to take advantage.
double arrows for instant. He starts at the height of his jump. predicting with a laser really helps. (laser him before the first arrow comes out or between 1 and 2 when he descending)Also gyro helps ease prediction. Also his boomerang has start-up and potential lag if not canceled also ways toon link cancels it leaves him open much of the time. (For a laser or gyro) PSing arrows, boomerang and zAir make this MU a lot easier. Also learning to instant throw bombs is a neat little trick to put it back in tinks face. Sorry if you can time your projectiles right and powershield, you can outcamp him. Because while he does most of his camping he is in the air(easier laser target) However rushdown is prefered imo. But in certain situations on many larger stages as well you can force him to approach. Just watch out for retreating zAirs and quick draws. But no I disagree ROB can get outcamped but he has a chance at outcamping Tink(unlike Oli)

Yeah, I believe we are outcamped by TL too imo. What we do have on him though is the obstacle that our gyro creates for him. Then we have our moment of stage control.

read my response to LeishaChu

Blasphemy!!

Where did you hear such nonsense?

Oops the tier list I checked is old. Either way I found a new Japanese tier list and he is still 5 spots higher than he is here in the US. Either way there is a lot to learn from Ocean imo. Also I have been screwing around with different applications of WBGC and if you are near the ledge the application is the most useful. As you can make your opponent have to guess whether you are going for the ledge or the stage. Also while on the ledge you can buffer it off jumping up the stage. Just little things. Also WB the Robo burner is amazing. combine the two WB ATs and you have a pretty good chance of getting back down to the ground. Also throw in common ROB stuffs(bAirs, nAirs, fAirs) and it works pretty well. Then again here the level of play isn't as high. But lately we have been stepping it up. Just try it, learn it and see if it works.


Also pivoting lasers and gyros on the ground and make ROB more mobile and a little less predictable with his camping.

 

[CT Chia]

I'm starting to think the order of bad matchups for ROB is DDD > Falco > MK > Toon Link > Snake > ZSS

I know a lot of this is caused from my duo of Toon Link losses at Apex lol, but the more I think about it the more I think wow this matchup really really sucks for ROB. Toon Link can completely keep out of range of us from his aerial mobility + jump height, and has projectiles that cover every direction from him. ROB is forced to approach through a wall of projectiles that is incredibly hard for ROB to get past with a subpar shield and huge hitbox and poor mobility.

The more I think about the MK matchup on paper it's not looking as bad. It's a ***** or be ***** situation. The biggest thing going for us is that MK is forced to approach and ROB has killing options in almost all of those situations.

Falco never ever ever needs to approach ROB and ROB has a even worse time getting through a Falco wall than a Toon Link one. It's a very similar matchup, except that Falco runs horizontal circles around ROB instead of Toon Link jumping up and down.

DDD stops gyros with minions, has an above avg shield so the camp will never really get to him, his grab beats every single thing ROB has and leads to devestating chaingrab damage and is amazingly tough to kill. ROB can edgeguard DDD well but like... It's not enough to save the absolutely dreadful on stage play.

Snake is **** near impossible to kill except the saving grace is that it's possible to gimp Snake (dependent on the ROB reading the Snake's mistakes however), and ROB can set up some situations against Snake that get Snake into a lot of trouble damage wise which helps.

ZSS is awkward in the way that her dsmash completely invalidates all ledge camping by ROB completely. Her over B is perhaps her most annoying move as it outranges more or less everything ROB has. Saving grace is that ROB can gimp ZSS, and ROB can set up an ftilt wall in the right situation similar to the Marth matchup.

 

[Exdeath]

If we miss would we get punished? Or would we both look silly. I'm not 100% where at in MKs SL he can cancel it the quickest. I always just see it right before he hits the ground.

You would get punished, possibly by a Fsmash. It's a mix-up, though.

Her over B is perhaps her most annoying move as it outranges more or less everything ROB has.

...

ZSS' Side-B is one of her worst moves if you're playing the match-up properly, which usually means that you're standing on the grounds and poking. Punish it on reaction with running toward her and shielding; if done properly, you can run up and grab her.

Ironically enough, you want to be near ZSS in this match-up. Her ground moves either need space (Side-B, Dtilt, and Ftilt), are unsafe, have long start-up lag (Side-B, Dsmash, and grab), are punishable on hit and don't do much damage (jab), etc.

Also, spot dodge camping on the SV platform against ZSS is humorously effective.

 

[Mister Eric]

Eh, idk. I've never had much trouble out of ZSS.
MK is R.O.B.s worst for sure...for now (until we further our metagame and analysis of the MU)
I still have yet to think that Falco is all that bad.
I like snake that he keeps me busy. And is fairly easily telegraphed.

And I'm not convinced just yet that D3 is super duper terrible, but then again I'm also rusty at the MU.
And TL is just a personal thing. He stops my flashy style, therefore he frustrates me xD

 

[Darth Waffles]

I'm starting to think the order of bad matchups for ROB is DDD > Falco > MK > Toon Link > Snake > ZSS
[and explanations]

Honestly, I agree with most of this and the reasons are pretty accurate.

If you can't DI MK's options (smashes especially) he can be the worst one. Once you start DI'ing up, you'll live a LOT longer. You may still get abused at low percents but you'll have more time to rack up damage of your own since you're not dying at 110% from an attack anymore.

Depending on where MK is on the list, DDD is definitely second, ready to move up to first, for the reasons already mentioned. Falcos have always been mostly one-dimensional in their approach, but two years later, it still seems to be working against a lot of ROBs. I've never had enough problems with Falco to put him above either MK or DDD.

Can somebody show me a video of a notable, respected ROB player solidly beating a notable, respected TL? I don't mean chipping in damage here and there with an occasional fair or nair after getting hit a lot; I mean clearly outplaying TL, shutting down his options and capitalizing on any and all of his mistakes

 

[Exdeath]

Eh, idk. I've never had much trouble out of ZSS.

What ZSS experience do you have?

 

[Mister Eric]

What ZSS experience do you have?

I believe that patg is the toughest that I've played....even tho it was on wi-fi. It was about as lag-free as wi-fi can get xD

 

[-LzR-]

So if Falco ***** Rob, maybe that is the reason I always lose to my friends Falco. I used to beat him, but he has improved so **** lot that I can't beat him with Rob anymore.

 

[TeeVee]

all of the top tiers **** on rob cept ics and marth

 

[Bees!]

Actually Falco doesn't **** ROB that hard if you know how to PS the **** being **** at you.
Uh Wario isn't that bad...
ROB goes even with Diddy
and close to even with Snake(I will not concede that opinion)
DDD is pretty hard as you have to stay on or near the ledge(which puts you at risk of getting killed early or gimped.
Marth is pretty even
ICs(Now that I know how stupid easy it is to fight them) get *****
Olimar isn't that bad. dtilt shuts down grabs and makes it hard for Oli to get the kill.
ROB has a semi rough time with Lucario
ROB does well vs Pikachu(for the most part)
and is pretty even vs GnW

 

[TeeVee]

Actually Falco doesn't **** ROB that hard if you know how to PS the **** being **** at you.
Uh Wario isn't that bad...
ROB goes even with Diddy
and close to even with Snake(I will not concede that opinion)
DDD is pretty hard as you have to stay on or near the ledge(which puts you at risk of getting killed early or gimped.
Marth is pretty even
ICs(Now that I know how stupid easy it is to fight them) get *****
Olimar isn't that bad. dtilt shuts down grabs and makes it hard for Oli to get the kill.
ROB has a semi rough time with Lucario
ROB does well vs Pikachu(for the most part)
and is pretty even vs GnW

play top players of each of those chars with rob please

falco ****s on rob unless theirs no LGL...then rob wins
wario ****s on rob
rob vs diddy is barley even 50 - 50 at best for rob
snake is one of robs worst matchups, dunno why most people here are saying hes "even"...maybe in 08
ddd is robs worst matchup
rob beats marth by a little , its like 55 - 45 maybe better for rob
ics are free with rob
olimar ***** rob
rob vs cario is mehh, idk i feel like its close to even maybe 55 - 45 lucario
rob gets ***** by pikachu
gaw isnt that bad, prolly 55 - 45 gaw

 

[Bees!]

play top players of each of those chars with rob please

kk

10yougotits


Also for Oli I have played Fino(He 3stocked t0mmy at MLG and has played Chibo I am pretty sure and knows the ROB MU really well) It was my first taste of the MU and I still did well. Just saying from what I could see with that. Its not really that bad. (Once I figured out a little about the MU as we went.)

 

[Silhouette]

I agree with most of what TeeVee said, except for Wario and Pika.

Wario is doable, pick a stage with platforms (Just like with G&W) and camp underneath them.

Pika isnt comparable to Olimar, we can actually force him to approach.

 

[TeeVee]

meh i cant really talk for pika since i havnt played a good one offline in singles but wario is suchhhhhhhhhh a stupid matchup. its too easy for him to land the fart vs rob...unless you get a lucky gimp before his fart is charged i dont see rob winning

 

[Mister Eric]

If wario gets the lead, he can camp the beep out of you. I have yet to find a way around this yet...

As for the top tiers... lol?

rob > snake
rob < mk (barely)
rob = D3
rob > than the rest of high tier, imo.

being serious.

 

[Mister Eric]

Guys stop saying "rob gets *****"
instead, insert your name for rob.
just because you are having trouble with the MU doesn't mean that rob gets ***** by it.
it's silly how one dimensional we get...and negative. it leads us to secondaries or dropping rob altogether instead of developing rob's metagame. and imo, there's plenty to develop.

edit: not saying secondaries are bad xD<3

 

[TeeVee]

mister eric, you have the mindset i had a couple months ago lol

 

[CT Chia]

My MK game has reached a whole new level after this weekend I didn't even think was possible. My matches vs Tearbear (MM) Havok (MM) and Bloodcross (Friendlies) were @_@. I really wish I can record some, I want some of the stuff I'm doing documented to share with everyone.

 

[Leisha]

I kinda had my hopes with rob crushed this weekend >.<

meh

And I dont see how snake doesnt beat rob, well at least I cant beat snake anyway...

-_-

 

[Mister Eric]

mister eric, you have the mindset i had a couple months ago lol

You don't have a bad R.O.B., I really respect it, and I don't question your skill...just your attitude about the character.

I know it isn't easy with R.O.B., and it's because no one has went through the hard labor, and kept with it, to make things easier.

In due time, our robot will get the respect it deserves is all I'm sayin...

 

[TeeVee]

I know it isn't easy with R.O.B., and it's because no one has went through the hard labor, and kept with it, to make things easier.

In due time, our robot will get the respect it deserves is all I'm sayin...

totally respect that, i wanted to push rob to his limits at one point.


then i realized, id rather be respected or recognized as a good brawler rather than just a good rob. i remember right after poly people were calling me top 5 robs just from ONE MATCH...and i LOST lololol. that set with shadow was the only time i used rob at that tourny and like the 2 previous ones before. rob just doesnt have good matchups at high level..hes prolly the best secondary in the game though due to him countering ics, going even with diddy, ****** almost everything below high tier, and being really easy to pick up.

idk looking back at the 3/4 tournies ive won, the various 2nds, and a couple 3rds... i noticed i really didnt use rob for those tournies at all cept maybe one match (went diddy/mk)


all of this has nothing do with anything, i guess im just frustrated about rob and just letting out my thoughts :[


edit: dont feel bad leisha...snake is one of robs worsts matchups

 

[Bees!]

You don't have a bad R.O.B., I really respect it, and I don't question your skill...just your attitude about the character.

I know it isn't easy with R.O.B., and it's because no one has went through the hard labor, and kept with it, to make things easier.

In due time, our robot will get the respect it deserves is all I'm sayin...

I am at the same place here. Also another reason I think is just that ROB is seriously behind on his Metagame. For instance. spotdodge>dsmash was something that ROB mains have done successfully when the game came out. 2 years later it seems ROBs use the tactics of 2008. We need to try and adapt more. Use more of his tools. Also I stand by what I have said. There are many people who place well at national level tourneys with characters that are noticeably worse than ROB. I think we just need to develop his metagame more for that to happen with ROB.

 

[Bees!]

meh i cant really talk for pika since i havnt played a good one offline in singles but wario is suchhhhhhhhhh a stupid matchup. its too easy for him to land the fart vs rob...unless you get a lucky gimp before his fart is charged i dont see rob winning

Recovery smart offstage. You have a flexible recovery with ROB and generally you can mix it up enough to not get farted on. Especially when you see it coming so easily offstage.
I used to get farted on a lot until I started recovering lower and covering myself with uAirs. Also saving your DJ is really good. you can recover with UpB then DJ and Airdodge onto the stage or the ledge as a mix-up.
For me with Wario fart is the least of my worries. UAir however. I go from 0-70% with like 3 hits. Usually at that case I go for the ledge.


Also quick question. The LGL rule only goes into affect if there is a time-out right?
I mean if we beat the opponent without timing them out and go over LGL do we still get DQd?

 

[Dnyce]

Brawl Fact: Olimar can never beat Rob. The match-up is un-winnable.

//2cents

 

[T0MMY]

^ It's true, I 3-stocked Fino.

 

[KiraFlax]

Oli seems pretty easy for rob

 

[Teh Future]

My MK game has reached a whole new level after this weekend I didn't even think was possible. My matches vs Tearbear (MM) Havok (MM) and Bloodcross (Friendlies) were @_@. I really wish I can record some, I want some of the stuff I'm doing documented to share with everyone.

hopeless?

lol no i can honestly believe this, i was really impressed with you vids vs rain at apex