VGBootCamp: Regarding Project M

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh yeah one more thing. To those who say mods shouldn't be given the spotlight over the original product. Well I guess we should trash Team Fortress 2, and while we're at it lets piss on CounterStrike.

Different situation, different company, different medium.

 

[Pokechao]

They aren't afraid of a C@D because Nintendo allowed them to use their characters... lel

Yeah because they totally have rights to Goku, Ichigo, Lloyd, Ryu, Crash Bandicoot, and Sora to be do that.
Ohwait, they don't. If anything Nintendo would be getting themselves in trouble with the owners of the above mentioned characters (Namco being one of them, who we all know was involved in the development in Smash 4. Yeah Nintendo go piss on the people who helped you make the game, thats a good idea!)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Snash flash also doesn't borrow an official Nintendo game to function. It's made from the ground up from that team.

 

[TTTTTsd]

P:M has more than Nintendo stuff, and Valve = a different scenario entirely. A) PC modding culture is vastly different than console modding B) Valve has TOOLKITS that officially support it because of the way PC culture has advanced, consoles do not (although hey Mario Maker) C) P:M has Konami **** in Dracula's Castle (I don't know why).

 

[Pokechao]

Different situation, different company, different medium.

No, they are mods being streamed and people are making money of them. Same situation, same medium different company.
and I was only scratching the surface with that, theres many of mods of competitive games that are supported by communities, and if the Companies stepped in to try and threaten these mods, the community would fight back.
But nooooo its ok as long Nintendo does it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Same medium is blatantly untrue. PC vs. Console is entirely different and neglecting that is your first issue to what makes your argument lose weight. Call me when Nintendo releases OFFICIAL modding support for both their console and their software on it.

(BTW I support P:M wholeheartedly and this SUCKS but grassroots will keep this game alive and I will support my streamers in the process, but I can't say it's a Valve situation seriously =P)

 

[Pokechao]

Snash flash also doesn't borrow an official Nintendo game to function. It's made from the ground up from that team.

It borrows the basic Smash bros mechanics to the point where its almost a complete clone of Brawl. They are borrowing from an official nintendo game, regardless if it was remade from the ground up, its still the same concept and the same mechanics.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

No, they are mods being streamed and people are making money of them. Same situation, same medium different company.
and I was only scratching the surface with that, theres many of mods of competitive games that are supported by communities, and if the Companies stepped in to try and threaten these mods, the community would fight back.
But nooooo its ok as long Nintendo does it.

Smash flash isn't a mod, it's a fan game.

PM steals or borrows, however you want to word it, far more than just likeness.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Yeah because they totally have rights to Goku, Ichigo, Lloyd, Ryu, Crash Bandicoot, and Sora to be do that.
Ohwait, they don't. If anything Nintendo would be getting themselves in trouble with the owners of the above mentioned characters (Namco being one of them, who we all know was involved in the development in Smash 4. Yeah Nintendo go piss on the people who helped you make the game, thats a good idea!)

....Did you even read my comment properly?
I never even mentioned the above characters you mentioned.

 

[LimitCrown]

They aren't afraid of a C@D because Nintendo allowed them to use their characters... lel

Where is the proof of this?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Where is the proof of this?

And Ka-Boom.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthic...w-its-characters-in-other-media-license-free/

 

[LimitCrown]

And Ka-Boom.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthic...w-its-characters-in-other-media-license-free/

If I remember correctly, that's referring to Niconico's Creative Endorsement Program. Therefore, it doesn't apply to Project M.

 

[Pokechao]

PM steals or borrows, however you want to word it, far more than just likeness.

Again, Smash Flash 2 takes the exact same gameplay mechanics from official smash bros games. Mechanics that were originally Nintendo's concept. Even if it was remade from the ground up, its built to mimic Smash Bros exactly.
Smash Flash 2 isn't a special little snowflake just because its a flash game, if a streamer was making money of streaming Smash Flash 2, if we applied the situation that people keep trying to bring PM into, that streamer would still be in the wrong for making money of something he doesn't own.
It doesn't matter if its a mod or a flash game, same rules apply.

 

[LtGen Waffles]

#JailGimr lol jk

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Again, Smash Flash 2 takes the exact same gameplay mechanics from official smash bros games. Mechanics that were originally Nintendo's concept. Even if it was remade from the ground up, its built to mimic Smash Bros exactly.
Smash Flash 2 isn't a special little snowflake just because its a flash game, if a streamer was making money of streaming Smash Flash 2, if we applied the situation that people keep trying to bring PM into, that streamer would still be in the wrong for making money of something he doesn't own.
It doesn't matter if its a mod or a flash game, same rules apply.

Gameplay is irrelevant to this or shooters would be suing each other for being similar. Hell playstation Allstars and some other game are similar to smash as a platform fighter.

Fan vs mod is entirely relevant because one is using Brawl to function on a coding level. The other is built from the ground up on every level and doesn't take stages, textures etc to the level PM does.

They are not the same.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

If I remember correctly, that's referring to Niconico's Creative Endorsement Program. Therefore, it doesn't apply to Project M.

****.
Forbes plz.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139223533&postcount=1

 

[Pokechao]

Gameplay is irrelevant to this or shooters would be suing each other for being similar. Hell playstation Allstars and some other game are similar to smash as a platform fighter.

Fan vs mod is entirely relevant because one is using Brawl to function on a coding level. The other is built from the ground up on every level and doesn't take stages, textures etc to the level PM does.

They are not the same.

Except most shooters have differences in their mechanics despite similar gameplay. For example :Halo and CoD are very different despite them both being shooters.
Same goes for Playstation allstars and Smash Bros. They are both platform fighters, but the mechanics of the game are different. They are not the same because of these alterations.

Unlike the above mentioned examples, Smash Flash 2's mechanics mimic Brawl perfectly.

and Fangames also take from official games. For exapmle Smash Flash 2 is using both Sonic and Tails sprites from the GBA games, Early versions of Flash 2 were using Mario's sprites from Super Mario World. They also took sprites of Sora, Lloyd, Ichigo, from GBA/DS games as well. MegaMan's sprites are from MM8.
and multiple stages take sprites from official games as well.
For example Hylian Skies is using sprites from Link to the past. Yoshi's Island stage is using sprites from Super Mario World 2.

and thats just scratching the surface, alot of the item sprites are taken from other games too. For example the Cuccos are from Link to the Past, the E tank is from MegaMan 8 as well the Protoman Assist trophy, the metroid sprite is from Zero Mission. Do I need to go on?


Smash Flash borrows from official games just as much as a mod does. Again, its not a special little snowflake just because its a "flash game". Its fanmade content just like mods are.

 

[DraconisMarch]

You're acting like Nintendo has taken any legal action in the past against PM.

You're also implying Nintendo has taken legal action before against mods and won in court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.

Read up, If PM is ever threatened by Nintendo, this is how it will go down.

I don't like the **** Nintendo thing any more than you guys, but don't act like these ******* threatening GimR represent us. I want PM to be in the spotlight more than anybody, but I know when we've gone too far. I personally think if GimR doesn't feel safe, I'm sorry, and we should go to another streamer

But I also think anybody thinking Nintendo will C&D PM is just ignorant. Not stupid, ignorant

All of this. There's nothing Nintendo can do. Anyone who thinks that there's an actual risk and keeps repeating "hur dur legal issues" is ignorant. There's nothing illegal about PM. They can't sue people for streaming PM. And even if they do have the audacity to try anything, see the court case above.

So basically, this is all pure paranoia. There's no actual risk here. Period.

 

[Stryker]

All of this. There's nothing Nintendo can do. Anyone who thinks that there's an actual risk and keeps repeating "hur dur legal issues" is ignorant. There's nothing illegal about PM. They can't sue people for streaming PM. And even if they do have the audacity to try anything, see the court case above.

So basically, this is all pure paranoia. There's no actual risk here. Period.

As far as I know, this would not only apply to Nintendo trying to sue, but also Konami and Sega.
Once the original game was purchased, comsumers are allowed to experiment with the product that they owned and paid for.
This is why we can still jailbreak systems and the console makers cant do anything. You are buying the hardware. It's your choice to do what you please with it.
Now, maybe Gimr can be hit with "You can't stream this anymore." But that is a separate issue.

 

[Joe73191]

A lot of this stuff is bologna. There were booths for fan made smash games at a nintendo sponsored tournament. I guess nintendo acknowledges them, I guess that means nintendo has to shut them down. People have said if nintendo acknowledges PM then it must shut it down. Well booths at APEX for smash flash 2 and smash crusade show that fan made stuff can be at a nintendo sponsored tournament. So does that mean Project M could have had a booth at APEX?????

Also as far as the legal stuff, the copyright and intellectual property rights laws that this potentially fall under are extremely vague. If nintendo really wanted to bring the PMDT to court, there is a good chance that it could go either way. It would be 100% dependent on the judge's interpretation. Nintendo does not have a free ride in court on this issue. The judge can legally rule in favor of the PMDT or in favor of nintendo depending on how he sees the law and is feeling at the time. It is that vague. Of course the court costs and legal fees and lawyers fees would hurt the PMDT or VGBC or anyone like that far more than it would nintendo, but the negative public relations stunt and negative uproar that would unfold on nintendo might be just at bad which is why they REALLY don't want it to come to that.

 

[LimitCrown]

All of this. There's nothing Nintendo can do. Anyone who thinks that there's an actual risk and keeps repeating "hur dur legal issues" is ignorant. There's nothing illegal about PM. They can't sue people for streaming PM. And even if they do have the audacity to try anything, see the court case above.

So basically, this is all pure paranoia. There's no actual risk here. Period.

Incorrect. The Game Genie is completely different from Project M, which is a mod of a game.

 

[DraconisMarch]

Incorrect. The Game Genie is completely different from Project M, which is a mod of a game.

Did you even read the article? The Game Genie modified the game's code to enable "cheats."

 

[LimitCrown]

Did you even read the article? The Game Genie modified the game's code to enable "cheats."

I read the article, but it seems like you didn't. All that it says is that the judge ruled that the Game Genie didn't violate Nintendo's copyrights because it didn't constitute the creation of a derivative work. The Game Genie is dissimilar to modding the game.

Also, there is this ruling:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Star_v._FormGen_Inc.

 

[HalcyonDays]

I read the article, but it seems like you didn't. All that it says is that the judge ruled that the Game Genie didn't violate Nintendo's copyrights because it didn't constitute the creation of a derivative work. The Game Genie is dissimilar to modding the game.

Also, there is this ruling:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Star_v._FormGen_Inc.

This is a very interesting case, and one that closer represents our situation in comparison to the Game Genie case.

The main differences here are that:
1. FormGen actually activately encouraged user-created content by providing a build editor along with the game. They just didn't expect...
2. Micro Star to actually go out and collect 300 user-created stages, and then package them onto a disk and sell them for profit.

Of course, every case is different, and from the little I've read, it seems that court cases regarding IP law can be rather inconsistent in their rulings.

This whole thing almost makes becoming a lawyer interesting. And then there's Phoenix Wright.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

All of this. There's nothing Nintendo can do. Anyone who thinks that there's an actual risk and keeps repeating "hur dur legal issues" is ignorant. There's nothing illegal about PM. They can't sue people for streaming PM. And even if they do have the audacity to try anything, see the court case above.

So basically, this is all pure paranoia. There's no actual risk here. Period.

Great read! And the Nintendo vs. Galoob Toys Case also help determine other cases (listed in the article^) and all those things made a profit for a company. PM devs get $0 for their work. And now that Nintendo is allowing the use of thier IP's for fan work that is "non-commercial" aka non-profit. I see no risk the PM team or streamers can face...

Also there is no reason Nintendo can't make it "official" like Valve did for DOTA or GMod.

Worst case scenario they make PM devs not support Net-Play or hombrew so a physical Brawl disc must be owned and played on.
But even if that were to happen people can find a way around that and still do it. It just won't be "officially" supported by the makers of PM.

 

[Tino]

I think what he's getting at is that your initial post:

"I'm not surprised at all about this. I'm having too much fun with Smash 4 to care about the future of Project M."

Is worded in a way that, to someone who has just received some rather gloomy news, might seem as if you're merely fanning the flames of the situation. To someone with this viewpoint, you coming in and saying this all of a sudden isn't really helping. It's essentially going, "Haw haw, Smash 4 was a better game anyways. Too bad, PM players."

I know this isn't what you're saying, but it might be how others interpret it. Especially through the fog of negativity that's going on surrounding this news.

Statements like this can only make tensions rise. Exercising a little tact while someone else is going through a low point can help the situation by at least helping keep tensions to a minimum.

Why are you telling me this? I'm only stating my opinion here but someone here chose to take this the wrong way. I got nothing against Project M or the competitive scene if that's what that guy was implying. If that were to be true, I wouldn't have signed up on this forum. Only problem I have against the competitive scene is those taking the smallest little detail I've ever said way too seriously.

 

[hype machine]

Why are you telling me this? I'm only stating my opinion here but someone here chose to take this the wrong way. I got nothing against Project M or the competitive scene if that's what that guy was implying. If that were to be true, I wouldn't have signed up on this forum. Only problem I have against the competitive scene is those taking the smallest little detail I've ever said way too seriously.

<project m loses biggest streamer
<pm fans get butt hurt
<say don't care about pm's future too busy having fun with smash 4

+pm fans butt hurt
+Denies troll
+7 page streak
- Obvious troll is obvious

9/10

 

[HalcyonDays]

Why are you telling me this?

Well, you asked why he might've cared so much, right? I will say though, it isn't my place to be any persons' mediator of peace, or a 'White Knight'. For that, I apologize, I don't mean to overstep any boundaries.

I just wanted to bring to light to those reading this thread that it might be wise, both on Smashboards, and in life in general, to make sure that a person could express their opinion in a way that isn't actively trying to make someone else feel worse. This may require us to go out of our way sometimes to make sure we aren't hurting others, but I'm sure it'll be beneficial in the long run. It may be beneficial to consider whether one's words, or even how they're "said" (on the internet, where there is no real sense of implications beneath words) could hurt someone else, before they're said.

I feel it's the first step in helping get rid of the toxins that exists between the divides in the Smash Community, any allusions (or illusions) of #OneUnit aside. Of course, how realistic this is, we'll only know if we try.

Now, I'm not saying that you were actively trying to rile anyone up, but I'm merely saying that it's probably that perception of your words as the reason why he reacted that way to your post, even though it may not have been the best way for him to react.

For future reference, I'm also not trying to anger you in anyway, and I sincerely hope I'm not, and if I am, I apologize.

 

[Tino]

Well, you asked why he might've cared so much, right? I will say though, it isn't my place to be any persons' mediator of peace, or a 'White Knight'. For that, I apologize, I don't mean to overstep any boundaries.

I just wanted to bring to light to those reading this thread that it might be wise, both on Smashboards, and in life in general, to make sure that a person could express their opinion in a way that isn't actively trying to make someone else feel worse. This may require us to go out of our way sometimes to make sure we aren't hurting others, but I'm sure it'll be beneficial in the long run. It may be beneficial to consider whether one's words, or even how they're "said" (on the internet, where there is no real sense of implications beneath words) could hurt someone else, before they're said.

I feel it's the first step in helping get rid of the toxins that exists between the divides in the Smash Community, any allusions (or illusions) of #OneUnit aside. Of course, how realistic this is, we'll only know if we try.

Now, I'm not saying that you were actively trying to rile anyone up, but I'm merely saying that it's probably that perception of your words as the reason why he reacted that way to your post, even though it may not have been the best way for him to react.

For future reference, I'm also not trying to anger you in anyway, and I sincerely hope I'm not, and if I am, I apologize.

Well, as long as you understand what I'm getting at here, then it's all good.

 

[TheRealGimpt]

What people need to remember, I supposr, is that the PM community is largely who is responsible for Gimr even being able to do this as a job. If he loses those subscribers who are there for PM, then well i hope Nintendo decides to supply him with enough money to make up for it.

Just to let people know, i respect all three games.

 

[Alex Night]

*heavy sigh* Okay... I've got plenty to say about this. First off, I'm completely and utterly **** about Project M being dropped by VGBootCamp considering that PM was one of the reasons why GimR and VGBC got to where it was and how he literally gave no explanation as to why it wasn't being streamed for a whole month until today. It was one of the reasons why #FREEGIMR got so big. Not to mention how interesting it is to see the metagame being developed by the players there, especially when S@X monthlies came around. Him dropping Project M is literally one of the most unforgivable decisions he made, especially when people subbed to his channel because PM was so interesting to them and they made it interesting.

That being said, I can see why he had to reach that decision considering that Project M is seen within a legal grey area even though there is Super Smash Flash 2 drawing attention... VGBC is getting more noticed along with the Smash community by Nintendo although I don't think Nintendo is doing much of anything in terms of actual support other than giving us GameCube controller adaptors and I guess Apex support if you want to call it as real support when Apex was doing just fine without it. Since he was getting more noticed, the risk of being sued or something bad like that increases because of Project M's existence. VGBootCamp being shut-down wouldn't help progress the Smash Community, so I can understand why GimR had to make that decision.

This doesn't make it right either considering how much support from PM fans he got and now he is essentially choosing to turn his back on them. Again, I can understand why he had to make the decision, but it doesn't make the whole ordeal better when there are people who view Project M as a love-letter to Smash fans and the series in general which is, IMO, far better than what Nintendo ever did for their fans in the series.

Spoiler

 

[St. Viers]

Yo, every talking legalese is missing the point. Nintendo doesn't need to sue/take legal action against anyone to make their point--they have leverage from being a sponsor of their games) that they can withdraw if they have a problem with P:M, and the fact that they haven't endorsed it yet seems like a pretty clear message, given that they did allow booths for other fan-made games mentioned earlier.

Also, say what you will (I get that people are feeling 'betrayed') but if you don't like the direction VGBC is headed, just unsub. They don't owe you anything, even if you did donate--you donated while they did what you liked, and now that they've stopped, you don't *have* to support them. However, calling people names and stirring up anti-Nintendo/Sm4ash hate is just immature, and if you can't see how it's going to hurt your future P:M scene, I'll tell it to you now: Alienating other people in your community is gonna set you guys back. Melee's popular, and Sm4sh is new (so still popular, and the thing that people who have reputations at stake care the most for the success of). So get out and make a new streamer/industry famous, like you did GimR.

Imagine if you bought a magazine subscription for one article, and then, much later, they grew and cut that one article you liked. I'm guessing that you'd just cancel your subscription, and not harass the chief editor of the mag (writing a "I'm disappointed and cancelling my subscription" letter is different than "I'm disappointed, and I'll cancel my subscription and hate you forever unless you change things to appease me!") Just because the onlines makes feedback more visible/makes interacting easier doesn't mean you can act like anything more entitled than a former customer.

 

[Ura]

This just flat out sucks man. Nintendo with their very anti-PM stance just flat out pisses me off. PM isn't trying to steal their thunder or tries to sabotage SSB4. If anything, it helps them by increasing sales to an otherwise outdated game. People are going to buy or not buy SSB4 regardless of PM's existence.

I'm starting to think the primary reason Nintendo is sponsoring all these Smash events is to just kill off PM. Hell, even mentioning Project M or it's abbreviation PM will get you permabanned from the Miiverse. Nintendo just needs to stop their anti-PM rhetoric.

 

[Zzuxon]

This just flat out sucks man. Nintendo with their very anti-PM stance just flat out pisses me off. PM isn't trying to steal their thunder or tries to sabotage SSB4. If anything, it helps them by increasing sales to an otherwise outdated game. People are going to buy or not buy SSB4 regardless of PM's existence.

I'm starting to think the primary reason Nintendo is sponsoring all these Smash events is to just kill off PM. Hell, even mentioning Project M or it's abbreviation PM will get you permabanned from the Miiverse. Nintendo just needs to stop their anti-PM rhetoric.

If Nintendo hated pm, they'd C&d it. They're doing pm a favor by ignoring it

 

[Snipnigth]

more balance? I only see Diddy complaints for balance, and Sakurai thinks of 4 player matches for balance

Balance or buffs i mean why would falco have a jab combo that ppl can easily di and an up smash that the second hit sometimes wont conect? Is he really that strong that he need these weaknesess? No he is not, and bet there are may other things like these that dont makes sense why they work like that, and then you look at diddy or shiek, something is not quite so right in my opinion for some characters

 

[SmashBro99]

The whole counter that PM isn't a real game is absurd. It has its own custom engine, follows community lead updates, and addresses balance issues better than Nintendo. Being not for profit they have more creative expression. This is the best version of cumulitave SSB IMO.

It's a mod of a real game, but it's still loved which is cool (hell I think it's cool), but still.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Balance or buffs i mean why would falco have a jab combo that ppl can easily di and an up smash that the second hit sometimes wont conect? Is he really that strong that he need these weaknesess? No he is not, and bet there are may other things like these that dont makes sense why they work like that, and then you look at diddy or shiek, something is not quite so right in my opinion for some characters

Most characters are perfectly balanced, I don't play Falco or know anyone that does, but I do know he's supposed to play differently this time

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Why don't the PMTD make up original characters, and re make the whole look of project m?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why don't the PMTD make up original characters, and re make the whole look of project m?

Supposedly they have one in the works from what the leaks have said.

 

[LimitCrown]

Why don't the PMTD make up original characters, and re make the whole look of project m?

It wouldn't visually resemble a Super Smash Bros. game, and the mod would still be using Brawl's engine except modified.