Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[hypersonicJD]

I really understand you guys. But I actually wanted to point out how Sonic's character can work. I have seen plenty of campy Sonic gameplay. I may be too unexperienced to truly understand how it affects in a real tourney match. But at least I try to give to the thread some explanation or useful guide. Many people come here to see what we think of the competitive scene/competitive strategy's. I truly understand why you guys prefer campy Sonic and I respect it. But for the new people it's not really healthy to teach them the same strategy's over and over again. This will make some characters lose some spark (people wanting to play them or just making them predictable). It might not bring up something truly useful. But at least I try to give the people that visit this thread a little bit of advice and what they can do. I am only explaning Sonic stuff because that's my specialty. I love Sonic and have learned almost every single tecnique. Learned: Not pulled off.

Most of the time I actually see your arguments and think about them because that way I can learn how to be more competitive. I haven't been here in a while and I haven't commented too much in this month. I'm learning more about this so that I can understand more strategy's and implement them in my gameplay. I really don't want to cause trouble or just to boder anyone.

 

[randomguy1235]

Right back at ya homie.

Elaborate please.

I wouldn't say half the cast, but I agree that he doesn't necessarily seem flawed or terrible. I think a majority of the lower tier characters feel this way tbh

Dedede has qualities that put him above other low tiers though. His recovery is arguably in the top 3, he has high damage output with ample reach, true combos out of throws, and he's one of the heaviest characters meaning he lives for a very long time. Only his frame data really holds him back.

 

[⑨ball]

Dear Australia,

Please stop telling people about WFT. Still kinda hoping to get an autocanceling bair and more grounded time on her jab.

-Thanks
A WFT Main

​

P.S.
If you see America please tell them to be quiet about Ike. I want a frame 3 jab.​

 

[Smog Frog]

his piss mobility holds him back, the fact he's combo food holds him back, his (mostly) ass neutral holds him back

he's a decent character with too many flaws to be good. he's undeniably low tier but that isnt as bad as it is in say melee or brawl.

 

[Jabejazz]

Elaborate please.

Dedede isn't better than half of the cast. I'm just saying that if you think he is, your matchup knowledge on the character is lacking.

Edit : Top 3 recovery? Get out of my face.

 

[TriTails]

Did anyone here said nerfing Sonic's dashing speed?

TBH. It's actually fine. He'd still has the fastest dashing speed in the game. But do you know how RIDICULOUS his dashing speed is? Falcon's is 2.32. Okay. Sonic's? Friggin' 3.5. That's 1.5 TIMES FALCON'S DASHING SPEED.

Sonic is faster when using his Spin Dash or Boost in his games. His running speed isn't all that great without them in his games at least But making him 1.5x faster than Falcon? That's super crazy considering the differences between the top 10s dashing soeed are pretty minimal.

If they decide to nerf dashing speeds (Unlikely but oh well), perhaps they can tone down his speed to 2.xx instead of making Falcon look like Ganondorf slow.

 

[Ffamran]

Dear Australia,

Please stop telling people about WFT. Still kinda hoping to get an autocanceling bair and more grounded time on her jab.

-Thanks
A WFT Main

​

P.S.
If you see America please tell them to be quiet about Ike. I want a frame 3 jab.​

Did... Did you just connect Smash with Hetalia?! Well, you should write a letter to Japan to tell them to SHUT UP ABOUT YOSHI so we can have more Yoshi buffs.

Anyway, watched the videos of Fatality's rampage at Xanadu and his match against Boss's Luigi... Why? Why are people not challenging Luigi off stage like that? Or any character with "exploitable" recoveries. Fatality chased people off stage and ledge trumps whenever possible. Sure, he does look for the lottery ticket 1 frame, but dude, he makes sure to pressure you when you recover with a character not known for "phenomenal" edgeguarding. Recovering shouldn't be free, especially since edge-hogging doesn't exist, so the only things you have to worry about is failing and getting gimped or dying not failing and then dropping off to your doom. Hell, even in past games, people would chase you off stage.

Edit: Also, Sethlon's usage of DED is sick.

 

[randomguy1235]

Dedede isn't better than half of the cast. I'm just saying that if you think he is, your matchup knowledge on the character is lacking.

Edit : Top 3 recovery? Get out of my face.

lol, why so antagonistic? Anyways, you'd be extremely silly to say that his recovery is anything but top tier.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Elaborate please.

I'm kidding.

---

This is a bit of random, but is definitely interesting. Kirby's U-Air is active from f10 until f15, and starts autocancelling on f22. This allows you to use reverse U-Air and then fast fall only 7 frames after to land with no landing lag. Spaced reverse U-Air is incredibly safe, so Kirby can weave in and out using it with minimal risk.

Using perfect pivots, you can space reverse U-Air to stay safe while being able to combo with it on hit using U-Tilt, which is a billion times safer for starting low percent combos compared to D-Air. Along with that, it sets up into B-Air/Upper Cutter kills, along with certain Copy Abilities.

Oh, and because you're autocancelling U-Air and hard landing because of the fast fall, characters who can't grab Kirby during his crouch can't grab him for 15 frames after landing due to his incredibly low stature.

Credits to Pha7om for finding out how good reverse U-Air is<3

 

[Smog Frog]

please dont. is the fastest thing alive and his dash speed conveys that very well.

and really the spin dash thing doesnt bother me. maybe its because the only game i own is colors on the ds(dont hate me), and you could spin dash in that game, but just tapping boost and going into max run speed was faster.

 

[Antonykun]

His recovery is arguably in the top 3

Safety (hitboxes/intangibility/invincibility frames) > Mixups (options) > Character's Mobility specs> Distance when it comes to recovery.

I learned this the hard way as a villager main. When DDD recovers he pretty much a giant flying hurtbox not only that but his poor air mobility means he lacks a proper way to actually evade anything sans doing an airdodge and risk getting baited compare that to Sheik and ZSS who have a variety of ways to come back for free. Sure he's coming back buck he's going to take a crap ton of damage against a good edgeguarder before he can comeback to neutral

at the risk of derailing this thread into a "Top 3 Recoveries" Discussion i will give my list in no particular order.

- Intangibility Vanish + Hitbox Bounching fish
- Flip kick + Z-air + Boost Kick
- multiple jumps + Small Stature + 3 different recovery moves

also please be more careful about what you say, this is a place where you can't just say whatever you want about a characters viability that goes against what the majority thinks and expect a few sentences if even that's worth of dialogue will change anyone's mind let alone have them not be hostile at you

 

[Jabejazz]

lol, why so antagonistic? Anyways, you'd be extremely silly to say that his recovery is anything but top tier.

You'd be extremely silly thinking his recovery isn't extremely abusable. Stripping TripleD of his jump is stupidly easy, and forcing him to use SDJ while not directly under the ledge is nothing short of a stock.

@ Antonykun got your better recoveries covered. You can also add Pikachu to that.
Probably WFT too lmao

 

[⑨ball]

Nairo v Dabuz

Zss>Olimar
Zss> Sheik
Zss<Pikachu
Zelda<Pikachu


What is this tournament

edit:
WHOOPS I blinked
ZSS>Pikachu

 

[wedl!!]

implying your main is top half of the cast while only noting one flaw they have (in this case, d3's frame data) is a joke and is complete ignorance to the design of a character/main bias. that's like saying samus is top half and the reason people dismiss her is because of her grab.

 

[Nu~]

John lost
I wanted to see the underrated character win.

@ ⑨ball
How bad is the Shiek matchup? It doesn't seem too bad going off of the false vs John numbers battle

 

[⑨ball]

John lost
I wanted to see the underrated character win.

@ ⑨ball
How bad is the Shiek matchup? It doesn't seem too bad going off of the false vs John numbers battle

On paper it looks pretty good with kit interaction, but on paper tends to assume optimal play from both sides which just isn't the case IRL. Best to call it a 6:4 or worse until results prove otherwise.

The set was pretty entertaining, but it might not have looked so pretty vs someone like Vinnie or Mr. R. Good stuff to the NWC champ as always though. He always puts on a show.

Wall cling spike was pornographic.

 

[Kaladin]

So, Erm, Dabuz' Mario beat Nairo's ZSS. Then, Nairo's Zelda beat Dabuz' Pika. What is this?

 

[David Viran]

So, Erm, Dabuz' Mario beat Nairo's ZSS. Then, Nairo's Zelda beat Dabuz' Pika. What is this?

Nairo's zelda never beat dabuz's pika unless I missed it. They were both screwing around it looked like.

 

[Trifroze]

lol, why so antagonistic? Anyways, you'd be extremely silly to say that his recovery is anything but top tier.

Dedede can't recover high safely and you get free damage on him every time he uses up b. You can also chase him offstage pretty well with some characters when he's not in range to use his up b yet. Top 5 is Pikachu, Sheik, ZSS, MK and Greninja or Villager because of their options and safety.

also weeklies.avi

 

[Ghostbone]

WFT is "good" (read: horribly underrated) but I still think she's in the bottom half of the cast whilst Falcon is definitely top half so I don't really see it.

It's a combination of me thinking falcon is terrible (well top of mid tier, wherever you think that is), and wii fit being about the same strength.

Dedede can't recover high safely and you get free damage on him every time he uses up b. You can also chase him offstage pretty well with some characters when he's not in range to use his up b yet. Top 5 is Pikachu, Sheik, ZSS, MK and Greninja or Villager because of their options and safety.

also weeklies.avi

Villager's recovery isn't top 5, massive distance but no hitbox means it's fairly trivial to pressure villager offstage, depending on positioning.

 

[Trifroze]

It's a combination of me thinking falcon is terrible (well top of mid tier, wherever you think that is), and wii fit being about the same strength.


Villager's recovery isn't top 5, massive distance but no hitbox means it's fairly trivial to pressure villager offstage, depending on positioning.

He has disjointed aerials in every direction though and lloids to cover himself. When I put Villager in top 5 I do it because I can't see who else has it better besides the other 4.

 

[TriTails]

Rosalina's trailer showed that Villy's balloons can be popped by just a single Side-B.

Is that still a thing?

And also. I'm friggin' sure I'm aiming for the balloons. Why Villy also get hit by my attack?

He has disjointed aerials in every direction though and lloids to cover himself. When I put Villager in top 5 I do it because I can't see who else has it better besides the other 4.

Unlike Olimar's Winged Pikmin, Villy can't cancel his Balloon Trip into an aerial. He's stuck flying like that until he grabs the ledge, making him very vulnerable to edgeguards.

Granted, he can control his direction, but he descents slowly and if you go over the ledge, you pretty much have to land on the stage or you're getting punished.

I think Zelda also has Top 5 recovery. Friggin' teleport that kills, have absurd distance and she can recover from basically anywhere, anytime. Jump Art SHulk also gets honorable mentions because Jump Art Shulk. Jump Art Kirby is also very very insane in recovering.

 

[Ghostbone]

He has disjointed aerials in every direction though and lloids to cover himself. When I put Villager in top 5 I do it because I can't see who else has it better besides the other 4.

Probably wii fit trainer

Extra double jump with side-b (gets it back every time she's hit too), can stall with down-b, up-b has really good vertical distance. Also gets a full sun salutation charge most of the time as a bonus >.>

 

[Shaya]

I don't think Greninja's recovery is top 5. If it's something I have no fear edgeguarding as Marth it probably isn't one of the best.
Wii Fit Trainer's recovery is close to top. Sonic's recovery is also very good despite the lack of weaving. Yoshi (kinda) and Wario stand out as well.

Reason you hit villager while trying to pop balloons is because when you proc hit lag, your hitboxes are extended in range, so unless you're hitting just the top of it you're likely hitting Villager as well.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

What's funny is that Doc has the 2nd worst recovery in the game but it still isn't really that bad. Smash 4's ledge mechanics are a godsend for him.
Before you say his recovery is still trash know this: hardly anyone uses the tornado or his wall jump (for whatever reason) and these tools make his recovery, while still second worst in the game, suffice.

 

[Shaya]

Oh, and , how could I forget him (doh).
Honestly a better recovery than Meta Knight's at the least.

I would say best recoveries in rough order:


Yoshi is probably overrated by me. But he has the best dynamic vertical/horizontal mobility combination in recovery. Stuff like footstool gimping him or whatever just doesn't seem to be much of a "thing" at this point.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

What's funny is that Doc has the 2nd worst recovery in the game but it still isn't really that bad. Smash 4's ledge mechanics are a godsend for him.
Before you say his recovery is still trash know this: hardly anyone uses the tornado or his wall jump (for whatever reason) and these tools make his recovery, while still second worst in the game, suffice.

Personally I find Ganon's recovery to be much worse then Dr. Mario's considering he doesn't even have options to extended it, assuming this isn't a custom environment. This means that one weak hit off the stage and he's doomed.

Edit: Worded that very poorly. What I meant to say was that Ganon struggles a lot more with recovery when he's far away and he's just as vulnerable to being edge guarded as Dr. Mario is.

 

[TriTails]

This means that one weak hit off the stage and he's doomed.

To be honest, this is also Doc's recovery in a nutshell.

Oh, and , how could I forget him (doh).
Honestly a better recovery than Meta Knight's at the least.

I would say best recoveries in rough order:


Yoshi is probably overrated by me. But he has the best dynamic vertical/horizontal mobility combination in recovery. Stuff like footstool gimping him or whatever just doesn't seem to be much of a "thing" at this point.

How about ?

 

[Shaya]

It isn't bad, but it has it's perpendicular throwback upon invisibly colliding with solid objects, large-ish start up and Naryu's Love shenanigans aren't giving her much from my perspective.
You don't go off stage to edgeguard with Zelda either.

 

[TriTails]

It isn't bad, but it has it's perpendicular throwback upon invisibly colliding with solid objects, large-ish start up and Naryu's Love shenanigans aren't giving her much from my perspective.
You don't go off stage to edgeguard with Zelda either.

But it has a lot of range to pack, can be executed from abyss, and is almost ungimpable unless she doesn't buffer her getups or you manage to hit the 1 frame ledge vulnerability. The startup also has a hitbox that makes it rather unproductive to chase her off-stage. Combine that with her above-average airspeed and floatiness. Phantom can also serve as a shield.

I don't think I have ever gimped a Zelda except for the lucky D-air spike I did on FG earlier when she is doing her double jump. And that's a situation where everybody can avoid.

 

[S_B]

I can see Pac-Man making 10 with his insane learning curve. You literally have to relearn the definition of "nuetral game" because his stage control is just that weird/unique

Agreed.

I think we're only just starting to see the potential of what Pacman can do in terms of trap setups and whatnot.

The recent combo videos on the main page have shown us just how many crazy setups Pacman has. If a player could have the foresight to use these setups successfully (consistently, I mean), they could do incredible things with Pacman...

 

[⑨ball]

Oh, and , how could I forget him (doh).
Honestly a better recovery than Meta Knight's at the least.

I would say best recoveries in rough order:


Yoshi is probably overrated by me. But he has the best dynamic vertical/horizontal mobility combination in recovery. Stuff like footstool gimping him or whatever just doesn't seem to be much of a "thing" at this point.

Sonic and Wario are underated. Sonic has really good aerial mobility plus invincibility on upB. Also doesn't go into free fall.
Wario can recover high and under the stage with relative ease which should never be counted out, good mobility, uair is disjointed for challenging people coming from above. Bike also interacts really well with platforms.

Pit's probably too high as is WFT who is fantastic until she loses her jump. Pikachu imo is far and away the best but could probably be argued due to hitboxes on upB everyone is willing to trade with.

edit: Pacman should probably get an honorary thing for being the only recovery that can't be ledge vulnerability spiked. #TrampolineSAVES

 

[Blobface]

Ganon's U-air is a fun move. The Tipman will always make people slide, allowing it to be used in combos like this. This is guaranteed by the way, you can't tech platform falls.

Quick question: Do any other characters have stuff like this? I'm curious, cause just from what I've tested it can extend combos to ridiculous degrees. I've been getting guaranteed 66% combos off a grab at 0% with only a single opportunity to tech.

Unfortunately this isn't as guaranteed as I thought it was. If you directly hit someone out of a missed tech (while they're laying on the ground) they can still perform actions once they slide off (BECAUSE REASONS). The same setups work for it, but you must read your opponents getup option/tech to land an Tipman platform fall. I intend to test it against human players at some point to get a real idea of how well it works.

Also, you can Tipman someone off a platform, drop down, Tipman them again to jab lock once they hit the ground, and land another Tip N Slide setup on their forced getup. Triforce of Fun!

@ TriTails Could Luigi D-throw someone up to a platform and toss a fireball to make them slide off then Jab lock with another fireball? He could probably setup into anything from it.

 

[Locke 06]

Sonic is underated. Sonic has really good aerial mobility plus invincibility on upB. Also doesn't go into free fall.
edit: Pacman should probably get an honorary thing for being the only recovery that can't be ledge vulnerability spiked. #TrampolineSAVES

can double jump after up-B and also can be spiked into a falling rush, which gives him back his Up-B and double jump.

Sonic does get spindash/spinshot while PAC gets side-B and fruit hovering shenanigans.

 

[TriTails]

@ TriTails Could Luigi D-throw someone up to a platform and toss a fireball to make them slide off then Jab lock with another fireball? He could probably setup into anything from it.

Maaaaay...be? I suppose I'll check later. Because if this is true then we may be able to get something like FJP and be KOing people at 60%.

 

[migul]

http://smashboards.com/threads/recovery-rankings.381244/
Huhey! This is a thread that pertains to the current discussion the most recent version of the rankings is:

SS

S

A
(Jump)
B
(*112)
C
(**22)
D
(**3*)
E
(*11*)(*11*/*22*)
F
(**3*)
FF

What do you think?

 

[|RK|]

I'm kidding.

---

This is a bit of random, but is definitely interesting. Kirby's U-Air is active from f10 until f15, and starts autocancelling on f22. This allows you to use reverse U-Air and then fast fall only 7 frames after to land with no landing lag. Spaced reverse U-Air is incredibly safe, so Kirby can weave in and out using it with minimal risk.

Using perfect pivots, you can space reverse U-Air to stay safe while being able to combo with it on hit using U-Tilt, which is a billion times safer for starting low percent combos compared to D-Air. Along with that, it sets up into B-Air/Upper Cutter kills, along with certain Copy Abilities.

Oh, and because you're autocancelling U-Air and hard landing because of the fast fall, characters who can't grab Kirby during his crouch can't grab him for 15 frames after landing due to his incredibly low stature.

Credits to Pha7om for finding out how good reverse U-Air is<3

I need to learn Kirby better, lol

 

[bc1910]

Hydro Pump itself can admittedly be easy to get slapped out of because the hitbox is behind Greninja, but he has other options. His recovery is something I'm very sure is good.

Shadow Sneak is a fairly long distance horizontal teleport that hits BEHIND him with powerful knockback and you can't tell when he's charging it. The only tell you have is his air speed getting slower, but it's a really subtle difference. Plus he can just drift back to the stage slowly on purpose to fake you out, then double jump or HP back to the ledge. DJ is impossible to react to and Hydro Pump is tricky. You can sort of react to the startup but he moves very fast and you can't tell what direction he's gonna go in until you're, well, moving in that direction.

I only started using it recently, but Substitute nullifies crap like Ness' PK Thunder offstage because you just use it and then literally become a flying frog and get back to the stage for free. It makes edgeguarding Greninja with most projectiles pretty much impossible because they tend to be reactable. Probably the only time when sub is better than a regular counter is when you're recovering. Also you can use it as a regular counter anyway on stuff like Marth's Fair, you may not get the counterattack but again you can zoom back to the stage for free.

Then you have your niche stuff like when you get launched high, baiting a high edgeguard by double jumping and then using Dair and Hydro Pumping back to the ledge. Oh and his natural stats like jump height and air mobility are good yadda yadda.

Don't burn your DJ too early and Greninja has plenty of (dangerous) mixups when recovering. His biggest weakness is the lack of a fast hitting aerial in front of him but... You can just use Shadow Sneak lol. And I guess he lacks a totally dumb option like Bouncing Fish or Flip Jump but those are kinda bonkers and rare anyway. Shadow Sneak alone should make you scared of edgeguarding Greninja.

His recovery isn't as free as ZSS's but it's probably top 5, certainly top 10.

 

[Routa]

If you ask me Wario is in top 3 when it comes to recovery. He has 3 recovery moves: Bike, Up-B and Waft. He can easily recover high, low and straight to ledge. He can also easily recover from under the stage etc. He can also jump off the bike and turn it into projectile that protects him from some edgeguarding. Also having the 2nd best air mobility (after Jigglypuff) allows him to recover at low % without needing to use bike, waft or up-b.

 

[Vipermoon]

Wario's air speed is 4th best behind Yoshi, Jiggly, and Roy. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/AirSpeed