Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Smog Frog]

he DOES get rewards off of grabs. command grabs, that is. and even his regular throws do decent damage(12 on all of them except uthrow)

sometimes, you have to look at the raw damage of a throw before you consider any followups.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Except no, we're actually decent, with frame data and fast pokes that grants us a decent neutral.
I think people keep forgetting that we have 50/50s, where you don't air dodge, we get Bair, or Uair, and if you do, we get Up-b, and every aerial move we have in our arsenal. Low %s, we get Dthrow-Usmash, which is around 20% which isn't too bad.
You have to remember that we are not a character of extreme absolutes, that we have a balanced moveset to handle any problem, so that gives us even-ish MUs across the board.

Yes. His 50-50s off dthrow aren't recognized because, well, they're 50-50s. Dthrow-Uair-UpB always works unless they airdodge. Dthrow-> Bair also works at lower percents, and you can mix up fthrow with the hopes of a pill reset on fast fallers...
The problem is that you have to outplay your opponent. It's not like it can't be done (on the conterary, Doc has ample tools to do so), but the fact that you have to get inside their head and keep them guessing is really what prevents him from being good. Why use a character with all these mixups when Mario has true combos?
There are reasons, such had his shorthop game, that I prefer Doc, but at the end of the day, you gotta lab hard with this guy in order to get on the levels of the higher tiers. The Tl;dr is that he takes more work.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Yes. His 50-50s off dthrow aren't recognized because, well, they're 50-50s. Dthrow-Uair-UpB always works unless they airdodge. Dthrow-> Bair also works at lower percents, and you can mix up fthrow with the hopes of a pill reset on fast fallers...
The problem is that you have to outplay your opponent. It's not like it can't be done (on the conterary, Doc has ample tools to do so), but the fact that you have to get inside their head and keep them guessing is really what prevents him from being good. Why use a character with all these mixups when Mario has true combos?
There are reasons, such had his shorthop game, that I prefer Doc, but at the end of the day, you gotta lab hard with this guy in order to get on the levels of the higher tiers. The Tl;dr is that he takes more work.

How much Damage does mario does off of true combos? It's not like he does luigi-levels of damage and you can condition your opponent to air dodge immediately after the Dthrow so you can setup your up-b.

 

[Blobface]

you gotta lab hard with this guy in order to get on the levels of the higher tiers. The Tl;dr is that he takes more work.

To be honest, that's basically the story of every Smash 4 mid-tier.

 

[Trifroze]

Every character arguably needs a read or a punish to get kills, but the terms by themselves aren't very descriptive. It can just be a situation where you safely keep throwing out something like Falcon's back air from time to time. It's very likely that your opponent will eventually engage or drop their shield at the wrong time and they'll get hit by it. You're systematically trying to find an opening and connect with the back air, sometimes trying to read a shield drop or dash in and sometimes trying to punish them for whatever they might've committed to. There's no such thing as true brainlessness, even if you just keep throwing the move out in a consistent pattern you have some motive behind it whether it's to act like an idiot for its own sake, or because you think that it's likely to work versus the person you're playing against. You're unlikely to lose anything either way because of the safety of back air, but it will technically still end up being a read or a punish.

Now compare this to something like Pikachu's or Fox's raw up smashes where, in most situations, they really have to focus on when they throw their move out because if they make the wrong choice they're very likely to get punished. When they land it it's still a read or a punish, but with quite a heavier emphasis on those words. The situations where they should throw these out are effectively more than halved, but the moves are still fast so they're very viable for punishing or catching people off guard.

Then take a move like Ike's forward smash that comes out really slow while also having considerable endlag, at this point not only do you have to focus on when you throw it out because of the lack of safety, but you also have to use it in a situation where your opponent makes a heavy commitment due to the massive startup time of the move. Now we've come to a point where, in addition to the lack of safety, a move becomes so hard to land to begin with that there are almost no situations where this move is a good option.

Lastly we have moves that are the opposite of the Pikachu/Fox example where they come out slow but are really safe like MK's fsmash. I have some kind of infatuation for moves such as these, they do a very different job where you have to get a read to land it but you can make those reads just about as much as you want. Even if you don't hit with it, you control space and cover yourself from the opponent's approach.

Regardless I think we can claim that there are characters who don't need to focus on reads or punishes to land kills, and they're pretty few and far between, basically ones that have an option that's fast, powerful and safe all at the same time. Only aerials come to mind but even they require you to choose between speed and safety; a rising aerial is fast but unsafe, and a falling aerial is slow but safe. Still these are probably the closest we can get because you can be in the air pre-emptively. Good, safe dash grabs that lead to kill throws or kill setup throws are also probably among these.

 

[TriTails]

Yes. His 50-50s off dthrow aren't recognized because, well, they're 50-50s. Dthrow-Uair-UpB always works unless they airdodge. Dthrow-> Bair also works at lower percents, and you can mix up fthrow with the hopes of a pill reset on fast fallers...
The problem is that you have to outplay your opponent. It's not like it can't be done (on the conterary, Doc has ample tools to do so), but the fact that you have to get inside their head and keep them guessing is really what prevents him from being good. Why use a character with all these mixups when Mario has true combos?
There are reasons, such had his shorthop game, that I prefer Doc, but at the end of the day, you gotta lab hard with this guy in order to get on the levels of the higher tiers. The Tl;dr is that he takes more work.

Pit plays this sytle.

Still good.

Outplaying the opponent IS how you win in Smash 4 (Unless it's something absurd like 8:2 MUs). The fact Doc can do this fairly well because on how versatile he is (But IMO, still not as versatile as Mario or Pit), means he CAN win his MUs, but just like you said, he just takes more work.

But if the amount of work you have to put into a character decides what character you play... Why play any other character when you can just use Sheik and get more reward off same amount of work ? Why play characters that take more work rather than Sheik, which is the best character in the game that excels in just about everything (Yes, killing with her is easier than half of the cast) while being fairly easy to play also?

 

[Wintropy]

Pit plays this sytle.

Still good.

Outplaying the opponent IS how you win in Smash 4 (Unless it's something absurd like 8:2 MUs). The fact Doc can do this fairly well because on how versatile he is (But IMO, still not as versatile as Mario or Pit), means he CAN win his MUs, but just like you said, he just takes more work.

But if the amount of work you have to put into a character decides what character you play... Why play any other character when you can just use Sheik and get more reward off same amount of work ? Why play characters that take more work rather than Sheik, which is the best character in the game that excels in just about everything (Yes, killing with her is easier than half of the cast) while being fairly easy to play also?

Pit is faster (movement speed-wise), has a better projectile, a very good recovery and disjoints, but yeah, I get what you mean.

I don't think there's any character that can't win by outplaying their opponent, but some have a more difficult time of it. Doc isn't the worst in that sense, but he definitely isn't the best either; he really needs to outplay the opponent to get stuff done, but when he does, he does it very well.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Pit is faster (movement speed-wise), has a better projectile, a very good recovery and disjoints, but yeah, I get what you mean.

I don't think there's any character that can't win by outplaying their opponent, but some have a more difficult time of it. Doc isn't the worst in that sense, but he definitely isn't the best either; he really needs to outplay the opponent to get stuff done, but when he does, he does it very well.

Pit is actually slower than he was in Brawl

 

[Wintropy]

Pit is actually slower than he was in Brawl

I mean faster than Doc.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I mean faster than Doc.

Ah, well yeah then. Besides Robin and Ganondorf, I can't think of anyone else slower than Doc(maybe Falco).

 

[adom4]

Ah, well yeah then. Besides Robin and Ganondorf, I can't think of anyone else slower than Doc(maybe Falco).

According to: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/DashSpeed
Zelda,Gunner,Villager, Ganondorf,Puff & Robin are all slower than Doc.

 

[Rizen]

I looked up Doc's stats vs Mario's and can see why Dr.Mario is so much lower than is counterpart:
Dr:
Weight 98 [18-19th]
Run Speed 1.312 [46th]
Walk Speed 0.902 [41st]
Air Speed 0.943 [37th]
Fall Speed 1.5 [26-30th]
Fast Fall Speed 2.4 [26-30th]

Mario:
Weight 98 [18-19th]
Run Speed 1.6 [26th]
Walk Speed 1.1 [27-28th]
Air Speed 1.15 [7-10th]
Fall Speed 1.5 [26-30th]
Fast Fall Speed 2.4 [26-30th]

Mario really let himself go in "medical school".

 

[Wintermelon43]

Following adom4 's post, Luigi, Ganondorf, Kirby, King Dedede, Charizard, Olimar, Toon Link, Link, Pikachu, Villager, Pit, Dark Pit, Diddy Kong, Palutena, and Falco all have slower air speeds than Doc's

 

[Z'zgashi]

Oh wow, I never realized Villager was THAT slow, I always thought he was like Link/Peach speed.

 

[Y2Kay]

If only Doc could use customs. Fast Capsule, Breezy Sheet, Ol' One Two, Soaring Tornado could all really help him be better.

 

[san.]

According to: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/DashSpeed
Zelda,Gunner,Villager, Ganondorf,Puff & Robin are all slower than Doc.

Gunner's initial dash is 1.6, so gunner is faster where it matters. (unless his is 1.6, too)

 

[KirbySquad101]

Gunner's initial dash is 1.6, so gunner is faster where it matters. (unless his is 1.6, too)

Doc also has an initial dash speed of 1.6, as well as Zelda.

The rest mentioned all have lower though (and in Ganondorf's cause, it's pretty awful).

And on the subject of Bowser, Jesus, that's quite an abysmal initial dash he has there.

EDIT: Or maybe not, the chart I'm looking at lists Dr. Mario as having the same exact states as regular Mario, which is definitely not true.

 

[LancerStaff]

I seriously can´t comprehend why Sakurai changed Pit's entire special set when it was fine as it was. Yes, his ENTIRE set, his arrows were extremely good in Brawl but in Smash 4 they are average at best. His HIYAYAYA was amazing and it did a lot of things without breaking a sweat, and it's replaced by a ****ty version of Falcon's Raptor Boost. His Up B was amazing except for the reason why Bowser Jr's Up B sucks, and they replaced it with a linear, abusable crappy version of Rosalina's Up B. His Shield was cool and had some uses, and they replace it with a crappy shield that is extremely laggy, situational, and that can be broken. Really, mention a single thing were guarding orbitars are useful BESIDES gimping Ness.

Hiyiyiya was ****. Like, it was legit useless on hit because of SDI unless you did this random at best technique to make it chase the opponent. Didn't even do much damage or have a finishing hit. At best it was a reflector you didn't want to roll into, and Pit then had a stronger reflector with SA on startup.

Upperdash shares frame data (IIRC) and (definitely) range with Raptor Boost. (And animation, and a bunch of other data too. Even a technique they share which gives the moves a lot of extra range on the ground. The move was cloned off of Captain Falcon, after all.) Less powerful but it has unbeatable SA and still powerful for Pit's standards. Even if you're just measuring it's value in recovery the SA makes it much more useful.

Yeah, his other specials were nerfed, but then again Brawl arrows and Uspecial would of made Brawl Dorf oppressive. I'd say it was basically the same thing since half of Pit's moves just failed on hit and the other half were mediocre barring Bair and Dsmash. Pit's old Uspecial was just cancer and wouldn't work on any character. Villager's Balloon Trip is as close as you'll get to it in Smash 4, and even then it's much harder to control.

 

[Routa]

If only Doc could use customs. Fast Capsule, Breezy Sheet, Ol' One Two, Soaring Tornado could all really help him be better.

They do help him, but just like with many characters they wont remove his flaws. Fast Capsule is really good, but it looses some of pill's uses like within landing and as a edgeguarding tool. Breezy Sheet isn't a straight up upgrade. If I'm correct it comes out a bit slower and the gimp property isn't that special. I would say Shocking Sheet is better choise for MUs where your foe lacks projectiles (it is very poweful and in my opinion better for edgeguarding than Breezy Sheet do to its high knockback). Ol' One Two is very very VERY stronk (like Ike's U-tilt stronk). But... it has very poor range, so not sure if it is worthy. And lastly Soaring Tornado. It gives you a recovery boost and a strong kill move, but with a cost of loosing powerful punish and mix up tool. I see a lot of people trying to air dodge right after being launched upwards by D-throw to avoid Uair. Doc's normal tornado is great for punishing it. In my eyes he doesn't get anything super special from customs. Some improvement there and there, but as I said nothing super special.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Hiyiyiya was ****. Like, it was legit useless on hit because of SDI unless you did this random at best technique to make it chase the opponent. Didn't even do much damage or have a finishing hit. At best it was a reflector you didn't want to roll into, and Pit then had a stronger reflector with SA on startup.

Upperdash shares frame data (IIRC) and (definitely) range with Raptor Boost. (And animation, and a bunch of other data too. Even a technique they share which gives the moves a lot of extra range on the ground. The move was cloned off of Captain Falcon, after all.) Less powerful but it has unbeatable SA and still powerful for Pit's standards. Even if you're just measuring it's value in recovery the SA makes it much more useful.

Yeah, his other specials were nerfed, but then again Brawl arrows and Uspecial would of made Brawl Dorf oppressive. I'd say it was basically the same thing since half of Pit's moves just failed on hit and the other half were mediocre barring Bair and Dsmash. Pit's old Uspecial was just cancer and wouldn't work on any character. Villager's Balloon Trip is as close as you'll get to it in Smash 4, and even then it's much harder to control.

Without all the changes Pit got, he wouldn't be top 18(even top 16 material)

 

[KirbySquad101]

Hiyiyiya was ****. Like, it was legit useless on hit because of SDI unless you did this random at best technique to make it chase the opponent. Didn't even do much damage or have a finishing hit. At best it was a reflector you didn't want to roll into, and Pit then had a stronger reflector with SA on startup.

Upperdash shares frame data (IIRC) and (definitely) range with Raptor Boost. (And animation, and a bunch of other data too. Even a technique they share which gives the moves a lot of extra range on the ground. The move was cloned off of Captain Falcon, after all.) Less powerful but it has unbeatable SA and still powerful for Pit's standards. Even if you're just measuring it's value in recovery the SA makes it much more useful.

Yeah, his other specials were nerfed, but then again Brawl arrows and Uspecial would of made Brawl Dorf oppressive. I'd say it was basically the same thing since half of Pit's moves just failed on hit and the other half were mediocre barring Bair and Dsmash. Pit's old Uspecial was just cancer and wouldn't work on any character. Villager's Balloon Trip is as close as you'll get to it in Smash 4, and even then it's much harder to control.

Plus Pit was annoying as **** in Brawl anytime he used his Side B

Anyhow, though, I like this incarnation of Pit more. Gives him more balanced moves and useful attacks in all of his areas while removing all the dumb cheese he had in Brawl.

 

[Ffamran]

I looked up Doc's stats vs Mario's and can see why Dr.Mario is so much lower than is counterpart:
Dr:
Weight 98 [18-19th]
Run Speed 1.312 [46th]
Walk Speed 0.902 [41st]
Air Speed 0.943 [37th]
Fall Speed 1.5 [26-30th]
Fast Fall Speed 2.4 [26-30th]

Mario:
Weight 98 [18-19th]
Run Speed 1.6 [26th]
Walk Speed 1.1 [27-28th]
Air Speed 1.15 [7-10th]
Fall Speed 1.5 [26-30th]
Fast Fall Speed 2.4 [26-30th]

Mario really let himself go in "medical school".

The dumbest thing about this is that Dr. Mario isn't heavier than Mario. Not even slightly like he's 99 units to Mario's 98. Word for word (from the wikis which I copied and pasted over here, so quoted - his trophies in Melee and Smash 4 are:

Dr. Mario (Smash Red, Adventure Mode, trophy #62)
There's hardly any difference in the abilities of Mario and Dr. Mario, so choosing is largely a matter of taste. Dr. Mario is a tad slower due to his lack of exercise, but his Megavitamins pack a bit more punch than Mario's Fireballs. The capsules travel on a unique trajectory and make a distinct sound on impact.

• B: Megavitamins
• Smash B: Super Sheet

Yes, "a tad slower". Ignoring Melee's screw ups with Dr. Mario not being much different than Mario or the existence of Falco's Dair, the word "tad" only means little. Assuming the intent for his design in Melee and what happened in Smash 4, Dr. Mario isn't "a tad slower", he's noticeably if not borderline significantly slower. It'd be like saying Ganondorf was "a tad slower" than Captain Falcon. Between Sonic and Captain Falcon, Captain Falcon being "a tad slower" is more reasonable - really fast vs. fast - than between Mario and the Doc - average vs. slow.

Dr. Mario (Smash Blue, All Star Mode, trophy #63)
The differences between Dr. Mario and Mario are more pronounced in some areas than others, but basically they can be played in a similar fashion. While it may be hard to spot the contrasts, they do exist. For example, Dr. Mario's Super Sheet is longer and narrower than Mario's cape, and any opponents hit by Dr. Tornado will fly off in diverse directions.

• Up & B: Super Jump Punch
• Down & B: Dr. Tornado

Kind of true. Once again, ignoring Melee's screw ups. Y'know, I wonder if Smash could have been programmed to have two characters share a character portrait, but went through another select process. I don't mean like starting out as Sheik in Melee or ZSS in Brawl by holding down a button or clicking a portrait, but something like you select Mario and you're prompted between Mario or the Doc. I think this is how Kyo and EX Kyo and Iori and EX Iori were chosen in KoF XIII. It might be annoying to some, but it could make the character select screen less cluttered. Personally, I think this should only work for Mario and the Doc and the Pits since they share names while Lucina doesn't with Marth. So, the Doc and Dark Pit could be considered an "EX Mario" and an "EX Pit". I don't know what EX means when it comes to fighting games or in context to KoF XIII, but you could consider it as "EXtra".

Dr. Mario
In the 1990 puzzle game Dr. Mario, Mario threw on a white coat and decided to take a shot at that whole "medicine" thing. In this game, he's a balanced fighter who can throw Megavitamin capsules and nimbly deflect blows with his Super Sheet. He's not quite as quick as normal Mario, but his attacks deal a bit more damage.
In Dr. Mario, released in Europe in 1991, Mario threw on a white coat and decided to have a bash at the whole medicine thing. In this game, he's an all-rounder who can throw Megavitamin capsules and nimbly deflect blows with his Super Sheet. He's not quite as quick as normal Mario, but his attacks deal a bit more damage.
: Dr. Mario 10/1990
: Dr. Mario Online Rx 05/2008

Funny enough, actually true when it comes to "his attacks deal a bit more damage". Wasn't it like 1.12x more damage than Mario? Yep, totally "a bit".

Dr. Mario (Alt.)
Mario and Dr. Mario are only slightly different. Basically, Dr. Mario is stronger, but his MD slows his speed and lowers his jump. He also has a move Mario doesn't: Dr. Tornado, a down special that can trap opponents before launching them. You can move left and right while doing it and press the button repeatedly to rise into the air.
Mario and Dr. Mario are only slightly different. Basically, Dr. Mario is stronger, but his heavy coat affects his speed and jumping. He also has a move Mario doesn't: Dr. Tornado, a down special that can trap opponents before launching them. You can move left and right while doing it and press the button repeatedly to rise into the air.
: Dr. Mario 10/1990
: Dr. Mario Online Rx 05/2008

I never heard of a MD that "slows his speed and lowers his jump". If that's possible, then it better be one damn heavy MD to slow the Doc that much. By that logic, he should also be much heavier. If I Mario put on an overcoat, he should be heavier even if it's slight. Clothes do weigh and do make a difference. Don't believe me? Go ask Zelda why she's fighting in a dress when she wears pants. Triforce of Wisdom my ***, Zelda. If Zelda tore her dress into a makeshift skirt, she'd be closer to Sheik's speed. Gee, I wonder why? It's not like Sheik and Zelda are the same person. I mean, Sheik's a blonde and Zelda's a brunette...

Of all the characters to need or be justified to have an attribute change, it's Dr. Mario. He should be like, I don't know, Ryu's weight of 103?

Hiyiyiya was ****. Like, it was legit useless on hit because of SDI unless you did this random at best technique to make it chase the opponent. Didn't even do much damage or have a finishing hit. At best it was a reflector you didn't want to roll into, and Pit then had a stronger reflector with SA on startup.

Upperdash shares frame data (IIRC) and (definitely) range with Raptor Boost. (And animation, and a bunch of other data too. Even a technique they share which gives the moves a lot of extra range on the ground. The move was cloned off of Captain Falcon, after all.) Less powerful but it has unbeatable SA and still powerful for Pit's standards. Even if you're just measuring it's value in recovery the SA makes it much more useful.
Yeah, his other specials were nerfed, but then again Brawl arrows and Uspecial would of made Brawl Dorf oppressive. I'd say it was basically the same thing since half of Pit's moves just failed on hit and the other half were mediocre barring Bair and Dsmash. Pit's old Uspecial was just cancer and wouldn't work on any character. Villager's Balloon Trip is as close as you'll get to it in Smash 4, and even then it's much harder to control.

I hated Brawl Pit's Side Special so goddamned much. It was the only move that made me want to never play as Pit. I'd take Zelda over Pit any day because of that ear bleeder.

Upperdash Arm does not share the same frame data and maybe range of Raptor Boost. Upperdash Arm (ground) does 11% with 80 base, 60 growth, and an 80 degree hit angle. It "hits" on frames 2-4, but after it has a "detector hitbox" that happens from frames 17-35, so the earliest would be frame 19, and it has 49 total frames if it connects or 82 if it fails. Upperdash Arm (aerial) does 9% with 90 base, 60 growth, and an 80 degree hit angle. Same deal where it "hits" on frames 2-5, but that happens after a detector between frames frames 19-35 and it has 58 total frames if it connects or 120 if it fails.

Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost (ground) does 9% with 100 base, 75 growth, and an 85 degree hit angle. It "hits" on frames 4-8 after a frames 16-35 detector and has 35 total frames if it connects or 79 total frames if it fails. Raptor Boost (aerial) does 8% with 60 base and 80 growth for the 60 degree hit or 70 growth for the 270 degree hit. It "hits" on frames 5-6 after a frames 19-35 detector and leaves you completely helpless whether or not you connect with it.

The only thing they share is the aerial detector frames. Everything else is different or slightly different like the 1 frame difference between their ground detectors and even then, Raptor Boost is twice as slow, but faster on recover hit or not hit. The fact Captain Falcon doesn't have any super armor on any of his default moves, that Raptor Boost leaves you helpless unlike Upperdash/Electroshock Arm, the lack of a deflect hitbox on Raptor Boost, and the element differences debunks the idea they share the same frame data. Are they similar moves? Yes, but are they the same or do they share the same frame data? No.

Also, for Upperdash Arm's animation. You played Uprising; you should know where that animation comes from. Even then, there are animation differences like the different aerial hits or if I remember correctly, Captain Falcon's arm held up before he does an uppercut while Pit's is below his waist before he does an uppercut. You can't say it's "cloned" off from Captain Falcon and even if it was, it can't be said to entirely cloned off. Why? There's a finite amount of things you can do for anything and that's extremely apparent with fighting moves. There's a reason why Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon, ZSS, (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Sonic, Shulk, Kirby?, the Pits? - Utilt, right? -, Ganondorf - Nair and surprisingly, Up Smash -, and Ryu - gee, I wonder why? - all do roundhouses. I mean, what else are you going to do for a kick? A whip kick like Samus, ZSS, Fox, and Greninja? A front kick like Ganondorf, Wolf, and Ike which is surprising since front kicks are simple moves that few characters in Smash use. A back kick? Outside of ZSS and Fox - rapid jab finisher -, nobody uses them on the ground like how Sonic, Wolf, Falco, DK, Diddy, and Sheik do them for aerials. Or how many characters have some sort of flip kick move? (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Fox, Smash 4 Yoshi, Wolf - the only character who has a flip kick for a dash attack and not Uair or Up Smash -, Sonic, Falco, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Pac-Man, Kirby, and ZSS. If you add flip moves, then Marth, Roy, Lucina, Robin, and Pikachu would count as well. That's 18 characters who share some kind of flip move.

There's a point where you can't give everyone unique moves. Even if you somehow aren't influenced by other games like how Mario's Utilt is kind of like a grounded Shoryuken, you're still going to end up having to use the same moves on different characters. The main difference is how you make them function differently or even subtle animation differences like you wouldn't notice that Ganondorf does a high roundhouse for his Up Smash and not a front kick or how Wolf's Bair apparently has him spin around before kicking while Falco only sticks his leg out.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Okay someone tagged me and asked for Doc's best MUs. I'm not going to list his good MUs with any irrelevant char. So, here we go!

Good/decent MUs
- Mario
- Fox
- Luigi
- Yoshi (slight loss but not really stupid hard)
- Ness
- Pika (POST MLG EDIT ****ING NAIRO)
Hard MUs (usually like, 6:4 or slightly worse but nothing out of the ordinary or impossible)
- Sheik
- Sonic
- Diddy
Worst MUs (Usually 65:35 at BEST, probably 7:3-ish but still possible if you're REALLY good)
- RosaLuma (barf)
- ZSS (Flip Jump ****s this MU so hard lol)

To talk about Dr. Mario's frame data, it is actually better than Mario's, not in terms of how fast moves come out, but sweetspots and active frames are, on average, much better outside of Nair. Doc's Bair has 3 sweetspot frames and has longer lingering sour frames vs. Mario's, Doc's Ftilt is out for one extra frame (? Sakurai?) Doc's Reflector hitbox on Side-B has two additional frames of reflector hitbox I believe, Uair has more active frames....in fact, all of Doc's moves in a vacuum outside of Nair, Uair and Dair, just kind of totally outclass Mario's moves in a vacuum. (Which is why he's so slow compared to Mario) Doc's Jabs ESPECIALLY, he has jab cancel confirms on floaties with rage, for heaven's sake! Mario would LOVE jab cancels that were consistent!

His recovery isn't entirely what kills him in a sense. On paper it's fine and if you have your DJ you're pretty much alright. It's susceptibility to on-stage traps and a lack of consistency that kills him, personally. His vulnerability to combos without a high commitment reversal of his own sucks, and sometimes you have to burn your DJ and then things get risky. It was discussed earlier that individual games Doc > entire tournament Doc, and I find this to be true. He's very solid as a counterpick/pocket or a secondary because of this, it's why a lot of results log him as a secondary on this site. He's a lot of fun and decent in individual matches so he shines in that area. The reason Doc has no totally unwinnable matchups is because he actually does punish mistakes very very strongly, mostly OoS.

The only tangible improvements the character needs is either a better neutral to make his neutral better than Mario's (he's just slightly worse in neutral because he has the safer Bair and his movement speed, despite a lot of talk about it, is really only subpar) or a better disadvantaged state somehow. The character is solid but inconsistent which means he's just average IMO. He's not exceptionally terrible but he's very hard to be consistent with compared to say, Mario.

(Now I should probably get to writing an essay for actual academia now, not just about Dr. Mario)

 

[S_B]

But if the amount of work you have to put into a character decides what character you play... Why play any other character when you can just use Sheik and get more reward off same amount of work ? Why play characters that take more work rather than Sheik, which is the best character in the game that excels in just about everything (Yes, killing with her is easier than half of the cast) while being fairly easy to play also?

Because tournaments offer money as a reward, ergo people want to win them.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh also Ffamran Dr. Mario in Melee IS a tad slower...at his jab combo. They DID replicate this in Smash 4 while also giving his jabs WAY better knockback than Mario, but at least it combos properly in 4 unlike in Melee (Mario has to, and I **** you not, TIP his jabs to get KB even close to Doc's jab)

 

[LancerStaff]

I hated Brawl Pit's Side Special so goddamned much. It was the only move that made me want to never play as Pit. I'd take Zelda over Pit any day because of that ear bleeder.

Upperdash Arm does not share the same frame data and maybe range of Raptor Boost. Upperdash Arm (ground) does 11% with 80 base, 60 growth, and an 80 degree hit angle. It "hits" on frames 2-4, but after it has a "detector hitbox" that happens from frames 17-35, so the earliest would be frame 19, and it has 49 total frames if it connects or 82 if it fails. Upperdash Arm (aerial) does 9% with 90 base, 60 growth, and an 80 degree hit angle. Same deal where it "hits" on frames 2-5, but that happens after a detector between frames frames 19-35 and it has 58 total frames if it connects or 120 if it fails.

Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost (ground) does 9% with 100 base, 75 growth, and an 85 degree hit angle. It "hits" on frames 4-8 after a frames 16-35 detector and has 35 total frames if it connects or 79 total frames if it fails. Raptor Boost (aerial) does 8% with 60 base and 80 growth for the 60 degree hit or 70 growth for the 270 degree hit. It "hits" on frames 5-6 after a frames 19-35 detector and leaves you completely helpless whether or not you connect with it.

The only thing they share is the aerial detector frames. Everything else is different or slightly different like the 1 frame difference between their ground detectors and even then, Raptor Boost is twice as slow, but faster on recover hit or not hit. The fact Captain Falcon doesn't have any super armor on any of his default moves, that Raptor Boost leaves you helpless unlike Upperdash/Electroshock Arm, the lack of a deflect hitbox on Raptor Boost, and the element differences debunks the idea they share the same frame data. Are they similar moves? Yes, but are they the same or do they share the same frame data? No.

Also, for Upperdash Arm's animation. You played Uprising; you should know where that animation comes from. Even then, there are animation differences like the different aerial hits or if I remember correctly, Captain Falcon's arm held up before he does an uppercut while Pit's is below his waist before he does an uppercut. You can't say it's "cloned" off from Captain Falcon and even if it was, it can't be said to entirely cloned off. Why? There's a finite amount of things you can do for anything and that's extremely apparent with fighting moves. There's a reason why Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon, ZSS, (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Sonic, Shulk, Kirby?, the Pits? - Utilt, right? -, Ganondorf - Nair and surprisingly, Up Smash -, and Ryu - gee, I wonder why? - all do roundhouses. I mean, what else are you going to do for a kick? A whip kick like Samus, ZSS, Fox, and Greninja? A front kick like Ganondorf, Wolf, and Ike which is surprising since front kicks are simple moves that few characters in Smash use. A back kick? Outside of ZSS and Fox - rapid jab finisher -, nobody uses them on the ground like how Sonic, Wolf, Falco, DK, Diddy, and Sheik do them for aerials. Or how many characters have some sort of flip kick move? (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Fox, Smash 4 Yoshi, Wolf - the only character who has a flip kick for a dash attack and not Uair or Up Smash -, Falco - the only one with a unique flip kick at this point as Uair and Up Smash are front flips and since Wolf and Sonic share scissor kicks -, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Pac-Man, Kirby, and ZSS. If you add flip moves, then Marth, Roy, Lucina, Sonic, Robin, and Pikachu would count as well. That's 18 characters who share some kind of flip move.

There's a point where you can't give everyone unique moves. Even if you somehow aren't influenced by other games like how Mario's Utilt is kind of like a grounded Shoryuken, you're still going to end up having to use the same moves on different characters. The main difference is how you make them function differently or even subtle animation differences like you wouldn't notice that Ganondorf does a high roundhouse for his Up Smash and not a front kick or how Wolf's Bair apparently has him spin around before kicking while Falco only sticks his leg out.

Wasn't too sure on the frame data... May of been a custom. The range I'm sure is the same. The animations don't really resemble Uprising's at all... First off, there's literally no windup animation or dash forward animation whatsoever, and the cooldown animation is completely different. (A "slow" attack in KIU has like 5 frames of startup and 10 of endlag, and that's a 60fps game. Upperdash here has gotta be like a frame 2 attack with invincibility and maybe 4 punishable frames lol.) The whole "rear back, float forward" thing was copied wholesale from Falcon with some minor changes to accommodate for the giant boxing glove spinner thing. Pit's aerial animation is the same as the grounded one besides the endlag on miss and hit.

Actually, I don't think any of Pit's animations resemble Uprising's. None of his shooting animations on his Bow have a drawing animation, his "jab" from Uprising is completely missing (and for good reason), his "dash attack" was the Hiyiyiya from Brawl (and funnily was bad for similar reasons) and was moved to his Fair in Smash with a completely different animation. Rapid jab doesn't resemble it either. His Orbitars, the Dspecial, didn't involve any twirling and the hands are in a completely different position. Even the power of flight is completely different. His wings are tucked in, and in Uprising his wings are spread no matter how he flies. Dodges are different, running is different, jumping is different... Well, the walking is kinda similar and I think Dark Pit's Final Smash has the twirl after shooting the rifle. That's about it though.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Wasn't too sure on the frame data... May of been a custom. The range I'm sure is the same. The animations don't really resemble Uprising's at all... First off, there's literally no windup animation or dash forward animation whatsoever, and the cooldown animation is completely different. (A "slow" attack in KIU has like 5 frames of startup and 10 of endlag, and that's a 60fps game. Upperdash here has gotta be like a frame 2 attack with invincibility and maybe 4 punishable frames lol.) The whole "rear back, float forward" thing was copied wholesale from Falcon with some minor changes to accommodate for the giant boxing glove spinner thing. Pit's aerial animation is the same as the grounded one besides the endlag on miss and hit.

Actually, I don't think any of Pit's animations resemble Uprising's. None of his shooting animations on his Bow have a drawing animation, his "jab" from Uprising is completely missing (and for good reason), his "dash attack" was the Hiyiyiya from Brawl (and funnily was bad for similar reasons) and was moved to his Fair in Smash with a completely different animation. Rapid jab doesn't resemble it either. His Orbitars, the Dspecial, didn't involve any twirling and the hands are in a completely different position. Even the power of flight is completely different. His wings are tucked in, and in Uprising his wings are spread no matter how he flies. Dodges are different, running is different, jumping is different... Well, the walking is kinda similar and I think Dark Pit's Final Smash has the twirl after shooting the rifle. That's about it though.

Upperdash moves the exact same way a dash attack moves with an arm

 

[LancerStaff]

Upperdash moves the exact same way a dash attack moves with an arm

They're both uppercuts but that's about it. In Uprising Pit would "follow through" and swings his arm back around like with Mario's Utilt. In Smash he swings up, holds it there, then puts it down.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also one more thing on Doc. His Side-B is better for gimps because of how the physics on it work. It's a lot easier to aim and it really helps!

Oh, actually, forgot to mention another thing they could do for Doc. They could (and probably should) make Fair's early hit a sweetspot as well so he can D-Throw > Fair more consistently (maybe more hitstun on D-Throw too, dunno).

D-Throw > Fair actually does work in a lot of top tier MUs (or at least some) but I think removing the whole arbitrary sweetspot thing would give him kill confirms off of grab against basically everyone and would do wonders. Dunno. It would also be hella Melee and they took this stuff out of Luigi so I'm not sure if it being here all of a sudden would be fine but different characters and whatnot~

 

[TMNTSSB4]

They're both uppercuts but that's about it. In Uprising Pit would "follow through" and swings his arm back around like with Mario's Utilt. In Smash he swings up, holds it there, then puts it down.

The hits are the same, but the startup and ending are similar.

 

[Conda]

Wasn't too sure on the frame data... May of been a custom. The range I'm sure is the same. The animations don't really resemble Uprising's at all... First off, there's literally no windup animation or dash forward animation whatsoever, and the cooldown animation is completely different. (A "slow" attack in KIU has like 5 frames of startup and 10 of endlag, and that's a 60fps game. Upperdash here has gotta be like a frame 2 attack with invincibility and maybe 4 punishable frames lol.) The whole "rear back, float forward" thing was copied wholesale from Falcon with some minor changes to accommodate for the giant boxing glove spinner thing. Pit's aerial animation is the same as the grounded one besides the endlag on miss and hit.

Actually, I don't think any of Pit's animations resemble Uprising's. None of his shooting animations on his Bow have a drawing animation, his "jab" from Uprising is completely missing (and for good reason), his "dash attack" was the Hiyiyiya from Brawl (and funnily was bad for similar reasons) and was moved to his Fair in Smash with a completely different animation. Rapid jab doesn't resemble it either. His Orbitars, the Dspecial, didn't involve any twirling and the hands are in a completely different position. Even the power of flight is completely different. His wings are tucked in, and in Uprising his wings are spread no matter how he flies. Dodges are different, running is different, jumping is different... Well, the walking is kinda similar and I think Dark Pit's Final Smash has the twirl after shooting the rifle. That's about it though.

Dash attack is on-point though.

 

[LancerStaff]

The hits are the same, but the startup and ending are similar.

No... There's like no startup on anything in KIU.

Dash attack is on-point though.

...Huh? Bow's MDA is the Hiyiyiya in KIU. Pit's dash attack is a dashing downward swipe.

 

[Jehtt]

Why are we talking about Pit's animations in Kid Icarus Uprising? That doesn't have anything to do with his viability in Smash Bros.

 

[|RK|]

A little irrelevant, but - the fact that in Melee, Jigglypuff has an awful matchup against Fox (the most ubiquitous character by far) and Hbox still shows up gives me an interesting perspective on viability in Smash 4. So many characters are only *relatively* bad. They all have the tools to do something. I imagine that many characters just need a really, really good player to show up at large events.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

No... There's like no startup on anything in KIU.



...Huh? Bow's MDA is the Hiyiyiya in KIU. Pit's dash attack is a dashing downward swipe.

I meant the animation setups, not any frames or stuff like that

Why are we talking about Pit's animations in Kid Icarus Uprising? That doesn't have anything to do with his viability in Smash Bros.

We're comparing his animations, kinda like how everyone did the same thing for Ryu and Megaman. Considering Upperdash Arm is in both, we're fighting out the differences between both game and how it affects Pit

 

[Blobface]

A little irrelevant, but - the fact that in Melee, Jigglypuff has an awful matchup against Fox (the most ubiquitous character by far) and Hbox still shows up gives me an interesting perspective on viability in Smash 4. So many characters are only *relatively* bad. They all have the tools to do something. I imagine that many characters just need a really, really good player to show up at large events.

That's what I meant earlier. Hypothetically most of the cast is viable, in the sense that a top-level (Zero, Nairo, Esam etc.) character loyalist could definitely place top 8 in a national tourney with almost any character. I could probably only name a few characters that are so bad that that's not possible.

Realistically though, there's very few top-level character loyalists as most top-level players pick top-level characters. Viability in this game is less a question of "how good is your character" but rather "how much more work are you putting in to get the same results as a top tier".

 

[Smog Frog]

incidentally, what characters do you think are so irredeemably bad that they cant possibly place top 8?

 

[LancerStaff]

A little irrelevant, but - the fact that in Melee, Jigglypuff has an awful matchup against Fox (the most ubiquitous character by far) and Hbox still shows up gives me an interesting perspective on viability in Smash 4. So many characters are only *relatively* bad. They all have the tools to do something. I imagine that many characters just need a really, really good player to show up at large events.

I dunno... Early on we had people saying Shulk was just hard to use but then we had Trelia and a bunch of other guys put a ton of effort into him and get nowhere. And then we had Ryu who's also hard to use but has had basically instant results in comparison just because he's better.

 

[|RK|]

I dunno... Early on we had people saying Shulk was just hard to use but then we had Trelia and a bunch of other guys put a ton of effort into him and get nowhere. And then we had Ryu who's also hard to use but has had basically instant results in comparison just because he's better.

You're not wrong, but I'm not saying characters aren't *better* than others - that would be disingenuous. The primary difference between top tiers and the rest is that top tiers give you more return on the time you invest. You'll always have to work harder to compensate for the weaker characters.

My point is that in this game, lower-rated characters have to work harder, but not as hard as lower-rated characters in previous games. In the Fox/Jigglypuff matchup in Melee, Jigglypuff definitely has to work hard for the win - and that tells me that in this game, where matchups (as far as we know) rarely get that bad, it's certainly doable.

 

[meleebrawler]

A little irrelevant, but - the fact that in Melee, Jigglypuff has an awful matchup against Fox (the most ubiquitous character by far) and Hbox still shows up gives me an interesting perspective on viability in Smash 4. So many characters are only *relatively* bad. They all have the tools to do something. I imagine that many characters just need a really, really good player to show up at large events.

Jigglypuff still has significant redeeming factors in the Fox matchup though, namely quick 0-deaths through rest combos and being harder to shinespike, plus her own gimping potential. Don't know how badly Fox beat her in neutral but I imagine those points could at least give her a fighting chance.

To a lesser extent it's king of the same story with Ryu when facing other top tiers. Characters like Sheik, Pikachu or ZSS can out-neutral him fairly handily, but the ever-present threat of shoryuken combos always demands respect, and it's not like they can just slap Ryu off-stage and expect him to die either.