Viable as a Solo main?

[Denjinpachi]

I'm becoming more interested in picking up or learning smash 4, and admittedly its due to cloud, roy and ryu being put into the game. I got to put some time in with the character this recent weekend at genesis, but I realized that he definitely has his weaknesses. I wanted to get more opinions based on people who have more experience with the game, and wanted to know what you thought about cloud as a solo main. If not, what characters fill the holes in his MU listing?

 

[Kalierdarke]

Any character has potential as a solo main, at least at locals, as you are practicing that character exclusively and would likely do better with it than someone who has their practice time split between two or three characters.

When it comes to higher tournaments though, how good you are as a player will really determine whether or not you can solo main any character, regardless of what the character's strengths or weaknesses are, or their placement on the tier list. Obviously a character like Zelda will require a MUCH higher player skill to place than a character like ZSS, but it is entirely possible, especially in 4.

Really, it comes down to just do what you feel works for you. If you think you have what it takes to put in the practice to not need a character other than Cloud, go for it.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Any character has potential as a solo main, at least at locals, as you are practicing that character exclusively and would likely do better with it than someone who has their practice time split between two or three characters.

When it comes to higher tournaments though, how good you are as a player will really determine whether or not you can solo main any character, regardless of what the character's strengths or weaknesses are, or their placement on the tier list. Obviously a character like Zelda will requirement a MUCH higher player skill to place than a character like ZSS, but it is entirely possible, especially in 4.

Really, it comes down to just do what you feel works for you. If you think you have what it takes to put in the practice to not need a character other than Cloud, go for it.

Would you say, from what you've put in on the game so far, that there are any MU's that are really bad or near unwinnable that would warrant a switch?

 

[Kalierdarke]

Would you say, from what you've put in on the game so far, that there are any MU's that are really bad or near unwinnable that would warrant a switch?

I personally feel if you have an alternative, Greninja is a very good time to switch characters for, as Hydro Pump is probably one of the best anti-cloud gimps in the game. I can normally put up a fight against pretty much any character with Cloud, but a good greninja shuts me down in no time at all.

 

[Denjinpachi]

I was thinking about Fox. Notably, I play Melee, and to a lesser extent PM. I know he is completely different in an execution aspect because its a different game, but how would fox fair against greninja, Pikachu, and ZSS. I've seen those can be pretty rough ones as well.

 

[joltekz]

yeah, I think he's definitely solo viable to main to a certain extent if you practice him enough.

 

[Dar4]

He's extremely solo viable. Cloud's only weakness is his recovery really, and it's workable. Personally I think he's a top 5 character, and most pros are saying he's top 10 atleast.

 

[SpicyMango]

I'm actually learning this myself. I am trying to solo main Cloud and I think he definitely can. It's all based on how much time you put into him and learning his matchups. also take into account that Cloud is only 2 months old so as time goes on, people will learn how to deal with him better. But besides that I think he's very very good. Top 15 for sure.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, I think Cloud is viable as a solo character. I think that he has shown that he does have the tools to handle some of the top tiers better than most characters. Though, keep in mind that not everyone has learned the matchup yet; sooner or later, people will learn how to fight against Cloud.

I personally recommend that you have a secondary to handle certain matchups that Cloud can't do. If you still want to go solo with Cloud, I think it's doable.

 

[2thesky]

Do it, man. Keep him as your solo main. I'm gonna see just how good Bayo and Corn are later today to see if I'll put more work into them, but Cloud is just too good to not be winning tournaments saayy..a year from now or even sooner. His option coverage is so good that being knocked off stage shouldn't even happen that much, as when I play against people both online and offline, Cloud's stage control game is godlike, especially with platforms involved. On stages like Dream Land, Uair kills at like 70-80% due to the low blast zones, which is ridiculous seeing as its priority is almost unmatched. I could go on and on, but hear me out when I'm saying that Cloud is viable.

I'd bet money on it.

 

[xIvan321]

No because edge guarding is taken much seriously when you're fighting much stronger opponents who can put you down in 36 seconds. I wouldn't really solo main unless this is the only character you wanna play, then I could respect that. (I kinda feel that way with my Mega Man, but I also play as a handful of others... and the closest I've had the most equal amount of fun with is Cloud.) Currently I do feel were still rating Cloud a little too highly, but yeah he's still very fun to play as long as you're very defensive... Otherwise I see Mario, Greninja, ZSS, or Sheik just trashing us off stage. (I think anyone's character could just edge guard. Lets not underestimate Cloud's weakness here or Smash 4 edge guarding in general.)

At least we have a tremendous punish game so that's always very good.

 

[2thesky]

Well, the thing is the way Cloud's recovery works, there's 3 different options for coming back (depending on position from edge). From
High up, UpB will clip on the edge, since you'll be high enough up. This also trumps any attack someone tries to punish you with. From a level point, where his feet are just off the stage, clouds UpB clips automatically without having to go up. The other way of course is the bottom, which if you space enough, cloud will clip to the edge. Of course, any well timed attack will be able to catch this, but not everyone has the best reflexes every time.

 

[Kalierdarke]

Well, the thing is the way Cloud's recovery works, there's 3 different options for coming back (depending on position from edge). From
High up, UpB will clip on the edge, since you'll be high enough up. This also trumps any attack someone tries to punish you with. From a level point, where his feet are just off the stage, clouds UpB clips automatically without having to go up. The other way of course is the bottom, which if you space enough, cloud will clip to the edge. Of course, any well timed attack will be able to catch this, but not everyone has the best reflexes every time.

if you properly space the low recovery, only a few options are a major threat. FLUDD, Hydro Pump, and quite potentially corrin's f-smash angled down.

But then, those 3 options are a threat to many recoveries anyways.

 

[2thesky]

Yeah Corrins Fsmash looks like a pain in the butt to be honest. But yeah exactly. clouds recovery isn't THAT bad. Well except for when you're just a hair to far away. That's always fun

 

[GHNeko]

He's solo-viable.

Just gotta gitgud.

You will have to spend a lot of time grinding out your bad MUs tho.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Personally, you might want a secondary to go with Cloud. Because his recovery requires you to conserve Limit Break for it to be efficient, you'll be in trouble against those who can effectively edge-guard; without Limit Break, your recovery is bad.

 

[Stylo Ren]

The only MU I feel you'd need a secondary for right now is MK, but I may be wrong. I feel like the MU is absolutely hopeless

 

[GHNeko]

You just gotta play lame as **** vs MK lol.

 

[SpicyMango]

I still haven't played a good MK yet ;-(

 

[IncomingGhost]

He's definitely viable as a solo main. He has incredible strengths and no unwinnable matchups, albeit some hard ones

 

[No0dle]

IMO, picking up a secondary can be good, but you have to ask yourself if you want to be good at adapting and learning certain matchups so that you can solo main cloud, or if you want to risk not having as much experience with each character you main but have them available to you as crutches to lean on when you face a challenge. I would take the first option and i think you should too. Thats just my opinion tho.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Honestly at higher levels of play I dont think so.

 

[GHNeko]

Honestly at higher levels of play I dont think so.

SHUN THE NON-BELIEVER.

Why dont you think @ high levels of play Cloud is a viable solo main.

 

[Strong-Arm]

My opinion has changed a bit actually. I was doubtful against Sheik, Falcon, etc. But after a lot of thought I see Cloud as a solo main character. Ive fully committed myself to solo maining him now. I think hes great and every day we are finding work arounds for his weaknesses. My bad. I was just having a downer day lol

 

[GHNeko]

Shiek, Fox and MK are really the only problem MUs Cloud has. And its only a problem MU in the sense that its similar Melee Marth vs Melee Shiek have a hard time with each other.

 

[Chalice]

I was a main for quite a while and I've had many frustrations when playing the character. He was my first top tier pick to main and there were many times I wanted to break my TV. I can do all the cool stuff with Fox; even now, like Perfect Pivots and Uptilt shenanigans, SHAC Uairs etc but I feel like I gotta be so damn perfect in terms of hitboxes and timings every time I play. Also, being combo'd extremely hard and dying super early always irritated me.

Then came along. I tried him out and the first thing I noticed is that all the stuff I learned and try to do with , I do them all way better with Cloud. But what was even better was his disjoints. I can do SHAC(FF) Uairs like with Fox, space really well with Bair, Fair, ad Nair, spike people with Dair, camp people with Blade Beam and Limit Charge, Perfect Pivot Uptilts and juggle really hard with Uair like Fox, I loved it all

What was even better is that I'm a sword character main at heart. I always played Marth/Roy in Melee and Brawl as a kid. Swords are just my thing but no sword character was my ideal image you would say

I wanted to play/main a swordsman who was fast, had range, good frame data, had a projectile in the form of a sword beam like in anime

No sword character has ever had a projectile, and too slow for my tastes andwas barely what I had in mind and so I mained him at first before going onto Fox

Cloud then got released and I kreygasm'd when he had all the things I ever wanted in a sword character

 

[No0dle]

i am the only person i know that voted for cloud on the smash ballot. i been a solo main since day 1

 

[DaDavid]

It may just take some getting used to, but personally I think Cloud requires you have a secondary for certain MU's. Any character that can gimp your recovery easily is beatable in my opinion, but could be easier with the right character. Personally I'm still using my Shulk as a good secondary because while I would say he is a weaker overall character, he does excel at the one thing Cloud strongly lacks.

 

[FUEGO!]

His weaknesses have been found to be not that bad in competitive play. If M2k can bring ZeRo to game 5 with solo Cloud, we should all be able to solo main him as well. He's not the type to NOT have back up characters for specific match-ups, historically.

 

[Jiggswiggs]

Doesn't Mewtwoking solo main cloud I think that means he's solo viable at top play

 

[GHNeko]

M2K is not a shining example of what should and should not be done when it comes to Smash.

Always treat him as the exception not the rule.

 

[FUEGO!]

M2K is not a shining example of what should and should not be done when it comes to Smash.

Always treat him as the exception not the rule.

I'm allowed to trust his judgement however, and honestly it was his judgement of Cloud being good enough to get him back to Smash 4 tournaments that encouraged my decision. The solo main commitment was my own choice after finding that I was pretty darn good with him myself.

 

[GHNeko]

You can trust his judgement, but I'm just saying that just because M2K does or says something doesnt mean its actually the case on a general scale.

The dude was playing DK before Cloud, but was getting results because he's M2K lol.

 

[DaDavid]

I suppose on second thought Cloud should be solo viable if M2K can use him. Sure, he's Mew2King so he can make stuff work that average joe can't. But he's also up against much tougher people than we're probably facing so it's not like Cloud's weaknesses are going to be exploited as effectively by the people we face on a regular basis.

 

[GHNeko]

Instead of using a player's character choice to determine viability, maybe we could just...you know

actually discuss the character's viability without using volatile players to discern an answer for ourselves.

Like seriously holy crap.

 

[JAZZ_]

I mess around with Cloud A LOT, and being a used to defensive and spacing gameplay, (Samus things) when using Cloud Ive noticed I dont get gimped often. Granted he's my secondary, but from what I've seen using Cloud in Limit Break mode eliminates most of his recovery problems. Coming from a Samus background I tend to play reserved in the Neutral and hold in Limit Break, Much like holding in CS, for mind games. But Cloud gets buffed in LB allowing me to out space and punish my opponent really hard. I think he's extremely viable and because of his recovery people sleep on you a tad.

but Im not planning on switching to him anytime soon, but he seems to be a good secondary to cover some of Samus' harder MU's. If you enjoy playing him Id say hes a pretty safe bet to go Full Cloud main.

No sword character has ever had a projectile, and too slow for my tastes andwas barely what I had in mind and so I mained him at first before going onto Fox

Dude um, dont forget these guys now...

 

[GHNeko]

They really isnt much Cloud has to worry about in the neutral, so I guess you can say as long as you dont get pushed off stage then his primary weakness doesn't really come into play.

With this image in mind, he's comes off as a well rounded character with some particularly strong attributes that stand out a lot more than other attributes. And said attributes are important to competitive play which give him an edge over a majority of the cast.

Which is nice.

Of course you're gonna make mistakes and get pushed off, but I'm glad to see that people arent still in the mindset of "Cloud's recovery is bad. Just get him off stage."

 

[DaDavid]

Instead of using a player's character choice to determine viability, maybe we could just...you know

actually discuss the character's viability without using volatile players to discern an answer for ourselves.

Like seriously holy crap.

No one is really saying that just by merit of M2K using him we should stop talking and say it's fine to use him. And honestly you have had plenty of windows to turn the conversation in the direction you wanted but instead chose to go with "don't trust him blindly u guys."

The sentiment that is being expressed (and I think in fairness to you perhaps understated) is that ...
Many have been able to show that Cloud's major weakness is not that big a problem now that everybody understands that limit isn't something you're supposed to hope you have when you're knocked off stage but rather something that you have to make an effort to charge and have many times throughout a stock. The fact that many of his attacks do high knock back (even if they don't necessarily kill) seems to me a purposeful choice since it allows you to charge after pretty much every interaction if you choose not to combo.

Not to mention (and this I will credit to M2K) there is a way to make his recovery auto-snap if you space it correctly, AND you can recovery high with it in certain situations since the second hitbox spikes at the starts and last forever and also autosnaps if you begin the decent from a certain distance.

 

[GHNeko]

No one is really saying that just by merit of M2K using him we should stop talking and say it's fine to use him. And honestly you have had plenty of windows to turn the conversation in the direction you wanted but instead chose to go with "don't trust him blindly u guys."

You're perceiving my posts wrong if your take away is "dont trust him blindly u guys." because my 2nd post on that topic literally had the words, "You can trust his judgement". lol

Many have been able to show that Cloud's major weakness is not that big a problem now that everybody understands that limit isn't something you're supposed to hope you have when you're knocked off stage but rather something that you have to make an effort to charge and have many times throughout a stock. The fact that many of his attacks do high knock back (even if they don't necessarily kill) seems to me a purposeful choice since it allows you to charge after pretty much every interaction if you choose not to combo.

I actually dont think a lot of people understand that. I still see a lot of Cloud's charging limit and holding onto it. Japanese Clouds are still fairly prone to doing this, at least the ones I see on SHI-Gaming's YT Channel. The sooner people realize that there is a time and place for Limit the better.

Not to mention (and this I will credit to M2K) there is a way to make his recovery auto-snap if you space it correctly, AND you can recovery high with it in certain situations since the second hitbox spikes at the starts and last forever and also autosnaps if you begin the decent from a certain distance.

Credit for those 2 things should go to @tttttSD and MySmashCorner since they're the ones that documented and shared the potency of AD into up B snap and recovering high pretty early into Cloud's meta.

 

[JAZZ_]

I actually dont think a lot of people understand that. I still see a lot of Cloud's charging limit and holding onto it. Japanese Clouds are still fairly prone to doing this, at least the ones I see on SHI-Gaming's YT Channel. The sooner people realize that there is a time and place for Limit the better.

I can understand why they do this, I mean I prefer to have LB fully charged for the whole match. Not because Im fishing for a Down B, Side B, or Nuetral B kill, but because Cloud moves So Much faster and more fluid with it active. Im able to punish in the Nuetral way more efficiently, as well as get back to the stage with a simple double jump thanks to his added side to side mobility. Granted your a little prone to edgeguard like that, but with LB full you can simply airdodge the edgeguard and snap to the ledge. Being a Samus player I know how to get charged while keeping mobile and evasive. (especially since Samus cant charge in the air) I dont use it for its recovery specifically, I use it for its mind games. Much like Samus' CS, people tend to play more defensive, easier to read, when a charge is full. However unlike Samus, Cloud can kill very handily without his LB moves. But the more time passes that you dont use a LB move the higher chance youll get your opponent to sleep on it, then bam, you punish them hard for it.

Maybe Im completely wrong and its just the Samus in me that thinks that there are benefits to holding it in.