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Wario's Match-Ups!
- Thread starter xzx
- Start date
I know its late but:
i totally disagree with -1 on ics imo is an even matchup since wario is really good avoiding grabs , the bad part is what esam said ics rack damage safer than wario but still we got enough tools to shut em down like the waft for instantly get nana or maybe try to gimp em out of stage. Spacing and camping are the key here i suggest using alot of nair and bair.
Now on the falco MU:
Even matchup we have a cg on him from 52 to 120 and also dthrow to buffered dtilt works till 40%, like lord chair try to bite if you di the jabs instead of doing a uair is safer. Things you need to avoid are:
-Uair and Fsmash. Since bair will prolly kill you till 140% o 150%.
Also remember to DI the spike otherwise you could get gimped. Try to go out of stage and gimp falco (yea its possible) if you can read his side b you can nair to waft or fair to waft
. Patience cause most of the falcos will camp the hell out of you! Again both MU's are even IMO
i totally disagree with -1 on ics imo is an even matchup since wario is really good avoiding grabs , the bad part is what esam said ics rack damage safer than wario but still we got enough tools to shut em down like the waft for instantly get nana or maybe try to gimp em out of stage. Spacing and camping are the key here i suggest using alot of nair and bair.
Now on the falco MU:
Even matchup we have a cg on him from 52 to 120 and also dthrow to buffered dtilt works till 40%, like lord chair try to bite if you di the jabs instead of doing a uair is safer. Things you need to avoid are:
-Uair and Fsmash. Since bair will prolly kill you till 140% o 150%.
Also remember to DI the spike otherwise you could get gimped. Try to go out of stage and gimp falco (yea its possible) if you can read his side b you can nair to waft or fair to waft
. Patience cause most of the falcos will camp the hell out of you! Again both MU's are even IMO
Luigi player
Smash Master
even matchup
Please not just numbers... any ideas in this MU for example?
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,065
ICs is definitely not -1.... come on jeezus just don't get grabbed, it is not out of the realm of possibility.
Falco is an interesting one, really fun to play against if you can figure out how to weave in and out of his attacks successfully. Falco can really rack up damage quick if he gets some reads in, so it is extremely important not to be predictable. Falco's quick moves can be a nuisance, as Wario's moves are quite a bit slower and take more time to come out.
If Wario can put pressure on the back of Falco's shield with Uair and Nair, he can avoid getting punished and apply some decent pressure by mixing bite into the picture. Fair is a good poke and is good for catching Falco in the air. It's important to weave between Falco's high priority aerials and poke in when you see an opportunity. Dair can be a good approach, but if you are predictable then Falco's Nair or Utilt will beat it.
I think Nair is a really top notch move to use against the blue bird. It can lead into different moves like grab, jab or bite and you can crossup his shield to keep him confused. If Falco is hanging on the ledge, a well placed Nair2 can knock him off and lead into another aerial or fart. Very cute edgeguarding technique.
Bike and tires in this matchup are tricky. Many of Falco's aerials can destroy the tires, and his reflector can be a problem as well. Use caution when throwing the bike, as the Dthrown marching bike can be reflected back at you. One of the safest ways is to throw it upwards and then move out of proximity while it bounces, as if it is reflected then you at least won't be in it's path. Tire usage in this matchup is most effective for stage control and zoning, less for combos and traps. Uthrow the tire and then advance on Falco, so if he tries to get away then he will have to consider the bouncing wheel as a secondary obstacle.
Falco is an interesting one, really fun to play against if you can figure out how to weave in and out of his attacks successfully. Falco can really rack up damage quick if he gets some reads in, so it is extremely important not to be predictable. Falco's quick moves can be a nuisance, as Wario's moves are quite a bit slower and take more time to come out.
If Wario can put pressure on the back of Falco's shield with Uair and Nair, he can avoid getting punished and apply some decent pressure by mixing bite into the picture. Fair is a good poke and is good for catching Falco in the air. It's important to weave between Falco's high priority aerials and poke in when you see an opportunity. Dair can be a good approach, but if you are predictable then Falco's Nair or Utilt will beat it.
I think Nair is a really top notch move to use against the blue bird. It can lead into different moves like grab, jab or bite and you can crossup his shield to keep him confused. If Falco is hanging on the ledge, a well placed Nair2 can knock him off and lead into another aerial or fart. Very cute edgeguarding technique.
Bike and tires in this matchup are tricky. Many of Falco's aerials can destroy the tires, and his reflector can be a problem as well. Use caution when throwing the bike, as the Dthrown marching bike can be reflected back at you. One of the safest ways is to throw it upwards and then move out of proximity while it bounces, as if it is reflected then you at least won't be in it's path. Tire usage in this matchup is most effective for stage control and zoning, less for combos and traps. Uthrow the tire and then advance on Falco, so if he tries to get away then he will have to consider the bouncing wheel as a secondary obstacle.
Croi
Smash Lord
Wait, I'm confused, are we done talking about Olimar?
Falco is 0 imo. Phantasm is easy to punish; dun git grabed; don't get uptilted or baired. Fair/nair erryday
Falco is 0 imo. Phantasm is easy to punish; dun git grabed; don't get uptilted or baired. Fair/nair erryday
It's worth noting that the average number for Ice Climbers actually turns to -0.4, which averages to 0. If we count Buff's vote of 0, that's a little closer to 0, too.
I suggest we change the OP's consensus to 0.
I suggest we change the OP's consensus to 0.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
how is croi's input on this MU any more insightful than LP's
Croi
Smash Lord
I said more words
Okay, this is offtopic, but: -1 got the most votes so therefore it is -1. But I see how you think though.It's worth noting that the average number for Ice Climbers actually turns to -0.4, which averages to 0. If we count Buff's vote of 0, that's a little closer to 0, too.
I suggest we change the OP's consensus to 0.
It's Falco we are discussing now... =P
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,065
It may be in Wario's favor if you can get the chaingrab down, 53%-120% is really quite a significant amount of free damage if you can get the right grab. Falco can try to play super campy but Wario can stay fairly safe and fish for grabs if Falco gets too close. Grab armor can power through Falco's jab, giving Wario a significant extension in reach if the 2 trade.
+1 for Wario IMO
+1 for Wario IMO
Iota
Smash Lord
Should I invite the Falco boards?
I think the MU is even. Falco has a very strong camp game and has a lot of options to keep us out such as bair, f-tilt, u-tilt, etc. so while he generally has an edge with doing damge (unless we get the CG going) he has a very hard time killing us while we can generally kill him at around 70-130% depending on the kill move so although we have a hard time doing damage we don't need to tack on much before we kill him comparatively.
Like others have stated SDI his jab behind him it gets you a free punish if you do it fast enough. You can hit Falco out of phantasm with dair or nair. Most of his moves are really easy to shield grab or punish oos with aerials.
His chaingrab does massive damage so we should play it very safe and just do some pokes here and there while taking laser damage till around 40%. Falco is usually pretty easy to grab so we should be taking advantage of the CG we have at 53-120% most stocks. Personally I'd end it near 120% when we're facing towards the ledge to f-throw him offstage.
We have a very strong juggling game but don't try challenging his dair when he's in the air its priority is ridiculous and the best we'll get is a trade with clap which isn't worth it unless he's at kill percent usually, what I usually do instead is bait the dair and then punish the ending lag oos or not depending where he was when he used it.
When you start to get to high percents it's time to start playing very safe and only taking damage from lasers and the occasional bair. Use safe pokes to damage him and to put him in a bad position. Falcos like to get greedy once you're high percent so try baiting their kill moves and go for the hard punish.
Bike is a nice mix-up for approaching but he can easily punish it if he sees it coming (e.g. JC u-smash, shield grab, reflector) Pwneroni's tire idea does limit his phantasm use but he still has quite a few options to deal with Wario's approaches. Tires a decent way to add pressure but Falco can destroy them pretty easily. Favorite way I like using them is to get an easier strong punish with them or bait reflector with them to get an aerial punish.
Falco will be CPing FD, BF, and Halberd(he probably has more stages Idk what they are though). Wario's CP stages will be Lylat, Delfino, Frigate, Brinstar, RC, and YI.
Might write more later, this MU is hard for me to explain <.< Again even MU he has a very easy time keeping us out but the chaingrab along with him having trouble killing keeps it from being in his favor. 0
EDIT: checking now I'm not exactly sure where to post to invite them on the Falco boards. I'd appreciate it if someone else would do it this time :s
I think the MU is even. Falco has a very strong camp game and has a lot of options to keep us out such as bair, f-tilt, u-tilt, etc. so while he generally has an edge with doing damge (unless we get the CG going) he has a very hard time killing us while we can generally kill him at around 70-130% depending on the kill move so although we have a hard time doing damage we don't need to tack on much before we kill him comparatively.
Like others have stated SDI his jab behind him it gets you a free punish if you do it fast enough. You can hit Falco out of phantasm with dair or nair. Most of his moves are really easy to shield grab or punish oos with aerials.
His chaingrab does massive damage so we should play it very safe and just do some pokes here and there while taking laser damage till around 40%. Falco is usually pretty easy to grab so we should be taking advantage of the CG we have at 53-120% most stocks. Personally I'd end it near 120% when we're facing towards the ledge to f-throw him offstage.
We have a very strong juggling game but don't try challenging his dair when he's in the air its priority is ridiculous and the best we'll get is a trade with clap which isn't worth it unless he's at kill percent usually, what I usually do instead is bait the dair and then punish the ending lag oos or not depending where he was when he used it.
When you start to get to high percents it's time to start playing very safe and only taking damage from lasers and the occasional bair. Use safe pokes to damage him and to put him in a bad position. Falcos like to get greedy once you're high percent so try baiting their kill moves and go for the hard punish.
Bike is a nice mix-up for approaching but he can easily punish it if he sees it coming (e.g. JC u-smash, shield grab, reflector) Pwneroni's tire idea does limit his phantasm use but he still has quite a few options to deal with Wario's approaches. Tires a decent way to add pressure but Falco can destroy them pretty easily. Favorite way I like using them is to get an easier strong punish with them or bait reflector with them to get an aerial punish.
Falco will be CPing FD, BF, and Halberd(he probably has more stages Idk what they are though). Wario's CP stages will be Lylat, Delfino, Frigate, Brinstar, RC, and YI.
Might write more later, this MU is hard for me to explain <.< Again even MU he has a very easy time keeping us out but the chaingrab along with him having trouble killing keeps it from being in his favor. 0
EDIT: checking now I'm not exactly sure where to post to invite them on the Falco boards. I'd appreciate it if someone else would do it this time :s
I Dair You
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2010
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- 608
- Location
- Harleysville, Pennsylvania
- NNID
- mike824
- 3DS FC
- 0834-4241-7942
its 50-50. The more patient player wins. Wario has his air camping/waft, Falco has his laser camping. The matchup gets increasingly more difficult for both sides when someone gets a stock lead. Falco has an easier time racking damage and Wario has an easier time landing the kill.
Kuro~
Nitoryu Kuro
Name bait: Seibrik
Falco vs wario discussion
Falco vs wario discussion
SSGuy
Smash Champion
Even if the Wario can't get the cg down on Falco but +1 Wario if he godly at the cg imo.
Falco's jab is very strong in this match up and the lasers should be Falco's primary way of raking up damage. The only time Falco should be approaching Wario is when he is under a platform and spamming b-air for the kill. To me it seems really safe for this match up.
Falco's jab is very strong in this match up and the lasers should be Falco's primary way of raking up damage. The only time Falco should be approaching Wario is when he is under a platform and spamming b-air for the kill. To me it seems really safe for this match up.
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,065
Pretty sure Wario's Uair beats Falco's Dair if you time it right. The Clap has a bit of a disjointed hitbox to it, so if you have good timing then you should be able to beat Dair outright. Even if it is just a trade, the trade will be more beneficial for Wario since A. Clap does more damage than Falco's Dair, and B. Falco dies earlier than Wario, think of the way Snake uses his grenades. Sure it does damage, but he is way heavier and harder to kill usually.
Croi
Smash Lord
It's not worth the risk. Clap can beat G&W's dair, too, but the timing is too difficult.
They can go from normal fall to fastfall at any time. It's not worth challenging unless you absolutely need it.
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,065
It takes very accurate precise timing, and a bit of prediction that's for sure. Then again, aren't all big plays the same way? If Falco knows you can beat his Dair, what are his other options? Side B away, maybe try an airdodge or b reversal. Wario can predict and punish all of these things with WAFT (right?) :O It will be a battle akin to rock, paper and the scissors of destiny.
Why would you need to if you could approach from an angle closer to the side? That way you can avoid a sweetspot D-Air while still threatening him.
Croi
Smash Lord
Yeah more often then not a top Falco player is going to know that the odds are hugely in his favour and dair anyway. If you feel you have to approach, Reflex has the better idea and just come up from an angle.
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
it's at LEAST +1 wario
this is including the CG cuz mu's are determined at the metagame of things
is it hard to do? for some maybe
Masky recently taught me (recently being for apex) how to do the CG perfectly and i almost NEVER mess it up.
every falco trades some % with me for the first 50%, then i get a grab and their stock ends.
i know the CG doesn't kill but it does do one of two things depending where on the stage u got the cg initially
either you got in in the middle of the stage, the entire time ur CGing (take ur time if possible btw) assuming u didn't JUST use your fart, chances are you'll have it after u get him to 120%
so in the middle, finish with an u-throw and followup with an aggressive uair/fart frame trap (either one will kill so they gona most likely airdodge anyway and hope) if u notice they had strong DI from the uthrow to one direction, this means they're most likely gona bait u closer and side b thru u when ur near a similar horizontal plain
so if u see strong DI from the u-throw, play it more patiently and be ready to airdodge the side b backward and u should be able to land a free waft when they attempt to side b
the other thing u do is when u land a CG near the edge of a stage, finish with a f-throw off stage even if u have to stop the CG short a grab to do it.
if it doesn't kill (stage dependant/DI dependant), this is a free chance to edgeguard by doing one of two things
go way out their and if they fall below edge level, just fair them immediately, it will kill and u'll most likely catch their jump if it doesnt
or pretend to go out and DJ airdodge back to stage/fart
i was just in a thread reading about ZSS/ddd MU and the reason they ended up giving an advantage to ZSS is just cuz her risk/reward ratios were better than ddd in almost all situations
besides 0-45% (on both sides) the same is true here for wario. After 45%, wario's risk reward is REDICULOUSLY skewed in his favor
and besides, lasers dont mean ANYTHING to wario. if ur winning, jump bike off stage, dj into top bubble and laugh as they try to catch u, meanwhile u charge ur fart and prolly land a couple free pokes in the process
if ur losing, do it anyway and occasionally be more aggressive when it comes to the poke wars. remember all u care about is getting him to 45ish, after that one grab, and it should at least tie up the game.
this is including the CG cuz mu's are determined at the metagame of things
is it hard to do? for some maybe
Masky recently taught me (recently being for apex) how to do the CG perfectly and i almost NEVER mess it up.
every falco trades some % with me for the first 50%, then i get a grab and their stock ends.
i know the CG doesn't kill but it does do one of two things depending where on the stage u got the cg initially
either you got in in the middle of the stage, the entire time ur CGing (take ur time if possible btw) assuming u didn't JUST use your fart, chances are you'll have it after u get him to 120%
so in the middle, finish with an u-throw and followup with an aggressive uair/fart frame trap (either one will kill so they gona most likely airdodge anyway and hope) if u notice they had strong DI from the uthrow to one direction, this means they're most likely gona bait u closer and side b thru u when ur near a similar horizontal plain
so if u see strong DI from the u-throw, play it more patiently and be ready to airdodge the side b backward and u should be able to land a free waft when they attempt to side b
the other thing u do is when u land a CG near the edge of a stage, finish with a f-throw off stage even if u have to stop the CG short a grab to do it.
if it doesn't kill (stage dependant/DI dependant), this is a free chance to edgeguard by doing one of two things
go way out their and if they fall below edge level, just fair them immediately, it will kill and u'll most likely catch their jump if it doesnt
or pretend to go out and DJ airdodge back to stage/fart
i was just in a thread reading about ZSS/ddd MU and the reason they ended up giving an advantage to ZSS is just cuz her risk/reward ratios were better than ddd in almost all situations
besides 0-45% (on both sides) the same is true here for wario. After 45%, wario's risk reward is REDICULOUSLY skewed in his favor
and besides, lasers dont mean ANYTHING to wario. if ur winning, jump bike off stage, dj into top bubble and laugh as they try to catch u, meanwhile u charge ur fart and prolly land a couple free pokes in the process
if ur losing, do it anyway and occasionally be more aggressive when it comes to the poke wars. remember all u care about is getting him to 45ish, after that one grab, and it should at least tie up the game.
Eh...His pokes beat all of ours. A smart Falco can run indefinitely. We need mistakes to do anything, but we often do a LOT of damage when we get in.
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
like i said, risk reward is heavily in our favor, even if he does out poke us
his pokes mean sooo little
his pokes mean sooo little
Luigi player
Smash Master
falcos fsmash is really strong though
also the cg starts at 53 %...
also the cg starts at 53 %...
Kuro~
Nitoryu Kuro
Pretty sure it starts in the late 40s
The starting point is anywhere from 53% to 72%.
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
i've done it at 46....
also, can we cg wolf? if so wut %?
also, can we cg wolf? if so wut %?
Luigi player
Smash Master
maybe the falco didnt react accordingly? Im not sure how it can work though maybe if your dthrow is already kinda staled... because normally falco is out of range if you start before 53 %...
wolf is like 60-220 or something
wolf is like 60-220 or something
Iota
Smash Lord
The Wolf CG starts at 59% and ends at 200%. The starting and ending percents on each character are in the AT thread if you don't know them.
TheReflexWonder: 0
xzx: -1
Labernash: 0
Jebu: 0
Buff: 0
Croi: 0
Pwneroni: +1
Iota: 0
I Dair You: 0
SuperShyGuy: 0/+1
Sensei Seibrik: +1
I find the CG on Falco really hard to do. 10 frames sounds very little to me. Any tip of how to do it? (Yeah, I've read the tutor in the other thread...)
xzx: -1
Labernash: 0
Jebu: 0
Buff: 0
Croi: 0
Pwneroni: +1
Iota: 0
I Dair You: 0
SuperShyGuy: 0/+1
Sensei Seibrik: +1
I find the CG on Falco really hard to do. 10 frames sounds very little to me. Any tip of how to do it? (Yeah, I've read the tutor in the other thread...)