Wario's Match-Ups!

[TheReflexWonder]

How does Kirby's shortness come into play in this matchup? As in, how do we have to tailor the way we go into this matchup as a result of his pokes, good grab, and general safety on the ground?

I feel like this matchup is rather tedious, much like it is against Peach.

 

[waldorf2007]

in my experience and against chu, it's really hard to get in if kirby plays a reaction based game. if she spaces bair the half second you decide to dive in on kirby, kirby wins almost always. if kirby goes for reads, then you have a better chance to get in because an incorrectly spaced bair that you airdodge through can give you a throw or something.
I'd say always be above kirby, but edgeguarding semi-aggressively can be okay. I'd definitely suggest trying to poke a fair in from above on kirby, even if it means risking getting baired. just never be under kirby or bike will be useless and it will be over for you (even ufll waft can be edgegaurded, chu did it to me).
my only strat is to play a solid spacing game that may even be centered on the ground. probably not centered, but I'd support a half and half strat. play solid, and try to read an airdodge to waft or something offstage for really early kills.

 

[Labernash]

This is 0/+1 Kirby's favor. Like Vinyl said, Kirby u-tilt beats out all air approaches AND bite. That's right. Bite. The thing keeping Wario in is kill power. Kirby doesn't have a terrible time killing Wario, but it is a little harder than most.

If Kirby copies your bite you'll be so annoyed.

Tedious indeed, Reflex, atleast, for Wario. Kirby has the generally safer approaches and gimping Wario is not too hard.

Waft Kills Kirby early, u-air will kill Kirby everytime. Kirby will typically go for F-Smash and U-smash if he doesn't try and gimp Wario.

It's not hard to string Wario with Kirby, but Wario can make it risky if Kirby chooses to do so. If Kirby just pokes all day with b-air and u-air then Wario has to be really sneaky to get in damage. Wario strings are not so common, and will most likely result in Wario getting grabbed.

Everytime Kirby grabs you, you take 10% except for the first time you might take up to 35%.

Kirby is so small, and if Kirby stays patient, Wario will need to be really tricky to even land a move. Tires will be nice to have. Once Kirby is in the air, that's when you can milk out the most damage. Keep Kirby cornered. Kirby will panic, and do something silly which Wario can capitalize on and give damage.

Pretty much, hit Kirby with hard attacks, like even f-tilt. Just get Kirby high enough % that stale kill moves will kill. Don't go for too many low damage strings. If you get in, capitalize on it and deal as much damage at once.

I'll say even MU.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I'd like tips against Falco, please. I plan on using Wario seriously, and as a start, why not start agaist Falco? I'm kinda having trouble against him myself.

 

[Iota]

Beginning of Falco discussion started on page 26 or post 386. If you still need help with the match up after reading what we stated take it to the Q&A thread please ^^'

Back on topic....from the few times I've played Chu I feel the match up is +1/0.

 

[(S!C)]

make silly hits until around 60% -> wait for the right waft moment ->

repeat it 2 more times -> choose your banned stage ->

 

[Vinylic.]

if she spaces bair the half second you decide to dive in on kirby, kirby wins almost always.

she

It's a he.

As for wario, he his Airplay is more swifter than kirby's by how wides he jumps, while Kirby's a tad slow. Both has great recoveries, but Kirby's airplay seems safer. Still, I don't really think it is since wario's aerials can beat Kirby's. This is coming from my point of view here.

Wario and Kirby even has a good ground play as well, we just have to take caution of things since wario's a little more faster, of course.

I still think this is a +1 for sure, but if I were to watch more matches on this, I could change thought.

 

[hyoipear]

if she spaces bair

KIRBY IS A MALE.

Anyway, Kirby combos Wario well at lower percents and should be getting a percent lead in the beginning of the match. However, Wario has more kill potential and Kirby won't be living much longer than 110-120%. Waft kills Kirby ridiculously early. Wario also outclasses Kirby by far in mobility (Wario outclasses anyone in mobility, but w/e), and beats kirby in the air w. dair, and uair, which also kills Kirby.

Kirbys uptilt is his most useful option for preventing Wario from getting in. In my opinion, if Kirby controls the ground space with uptilt and sheildgrabs, punishing Warios approaches, Kirby will have a good shot at winning the match. This stuff is kind of momentum based, though.

All in all, Kirby will have the lead the first stock, but if he doesn't get a gimp or early kill, will have trouble maintaining it. +1 Warios favor.

 

[Shadocat]

I think the match-up is even to be honest. I doubt either character wins +1.

 

[MikeKirby]

I feel it's 0/+1 for Wario. Kirby can give hell for Wario and take him out of his comfort zone but the fact that Wario has the ability to KO at early percents is what grants him that slight advantage. Granted setting up for that to happen will NOT be easy, the chance is still there if a mistake on Kirby's part does occur. Kirby's best early KO options are off stage gimps but for that to happen Kirby will need to rack up a good amount of damage.

 

[waldorf2007]

lol geez it was a typo. kirby's an "it" anywayyyyyy

 

[ccst]

xzx you said that "ROB has more useful multihit moves than Wario has" but I disagree. Wario's Dair and Nair for instance are much better on R.O.B. than Uair/D-smash/U-tilt are on Wario IMO. Both in knockback, damage (except Uair) and poking which is extra good on something huge and clumsy as R.O.B. (blind-spots), and probably the worst shield in the game in terms of poking. Thank goodness for the range though. Also stop sound so pessimistic when you say that R.O.B. can whiff a Fair after an aerial, don't forget that Wario has attacked R.O.B. at least once! Still disappointed to see it's +1 to Wario, trust me it's even on TV.

At first glance I understand why some people say Wario wins +1. As Kirby is my secondary, I would say this MU's pretty 50:50 but... too lazy to motivate and argue lol.

 

[LOE1]

yea, +1 for wario alright.

ive never playec chu, and the only kirby i even lost to was ally's kirby. i was bein a little dumb and mashing, so he grab released fsmashed me a few times.

wario kills kirby very early, compared to kirby having a hard time killing. when going for a dair, the kirby will most likely utilt or go for a shield grab. bite will beat the grab, but utilt can be a lil annoying.

its not hard to kill kirby in this mu, even if your uair is stale. kirby is so squishy, alot of things will kill HIM.

as cp and banning, always ban halberd in my opinion. i dunno what to cp really, mabey frigate or dp, although those are good stages for kirby too.

i dont play enough kirbies to know alot of this mu, but i'd still say its +1

 

[xzx]

Kirby is a small character with range. I seriously don't get why they gave Kirby all those dumb disjoints in almost every attack he has. Anyway, Kirby is good at blocking Wario's approaches with up-tilt, and IMO Kirby should space in this MU. Both can kill but Wario is better at doing so, but Kirby can gimp us, if he is good at reading. (But that shouldn't happen too much.) Bite is a good mix-up attack to throw in every now and then. If Kirby copies bite, he can at least approach with it decently and can eat our tires. Edge guarding Kirby might work if we throw a bike off stage, but I dunno. So to conclude this MU: It can be hard to actually getting in in Kirby and his range, but when we do, it will be rewarding. F-tilt and waft are both fine killing moves against Kirby, so does up-air. Kirby has combos at lower % and is good at racking up damage. And please Warios, don't get grab-released to up-angled f-smash! That shouldn't normally work, unless you are clumsy. To Kirbys: don't be predictable. Bair spamming is too predictable. I think your up-air is better, since it covers up more area. The hitbox is a "rainbow" over Kirby, which is pain for Wario. =P I'll go 0 since I can't see any major advantages. Both are simply good at different stuff.


Croi: 0
Kawaii Vinyl.: +1
BPx: 0
J: 0/+1
Labernash: 0
Iota: 0/+1
hyoipear: +1
Shadocat: 0
MikeKirby: 0/+1
ccst: 0
LOE1: +1
xzx: 0

To you who have set the MU as "0/+1", please decide before I "calculate" the ratios. (Not meaning that the discussion is ending soon.)

 

[(S!C)]

+1 for wario

only bair is a problem

 

[#HBC | J]

I'll move my vote to 0 then. I found it funny how me and Mike used the same first sentence or two to describe the MU haha.

Kirby can be weird for Wario and it's more of the player outplaying the opponent because both sides have options against the other and no one person really has a solid advantage. Wario's very slight advantage would be the ability to kill Kirby with Waft pretty early.

 

[Vinylic.]

I haven't really played that good with Kirby, but wario's nair is also looking like a problem.

 

[ChuDat]

How does Kirby's shortness come into play in this matchup? As in, how do we have to tailor the way we go into this matchup as a result of his pokes, good grab, and general safety on the ground?

I feel like this matchup is rather tedious, much like it is against Peach.

You should be able to do all of your wario combos on kirby. Upair --> upair works. Neutral air > grab works. Down air still works.

you can bite all of kirbys moves, back air, forward smash, forward tilt. Although, Kirbys downtilt beats bite.

Out camp kirby and you will have an easier time with the match-up! Jump around, and use your mobility to stay safe.

 

[xzx]

Croi: 0
Kawaii Vinyl.: +1
BPx: 0
J: 0
Labernash: 0
Iota: 0/+1
hyoipear: +1
Shadocat: 0
MikeKirby: 0/+1
ccst: 0
LOE1: +1
xzx: 0
(S!C): +1

 

[LOE1]

i really dont understand why you guys think this is 0, same thing why you guys think peach is even and not -1, but eh, i guess its just opinion.

but really, i wouldnt base a mu from playing one of the best known people of that char. if i played ADHD or GNES, i wouldnt say its -1 from getting *****. if i played chu, i wouldnt consider it even because chu really knows how to play, so i wouldnt base it from playing someone of that skill level.

base it on other people, they dont have to be well known or anything, just dont judge it based on 1 really good person of that char.

inb4 i get hated on

 

[Croi]

I hate you LOE1, or should I say LOsEr1

 

[LOE1]

its funny because i actually get called dat alot

heh

 

[Admiral Pit]

+2 at best, +1 at least for Wario... It's depressing that his air camping neutralizes our camping ability, and plus the lame rules about lgl (I actually don't mind this one, for other reasons) and scrooging does nothing more but limit Pit even further. Plus Wario can avoid many of Pit's ledge tricks and counter some of em as well.

However, don't struggle if you're grabbed by Pit, or you be air released, and may be met with either an F-air, a quick reverse B-air, or even an F-smash (well, the 2nd hit only), in which the last 2 are potentially kill setups, provided you're at high enough damage of course. There are some stages like BF and partially the SV platform that can help you avoid this.

As for stages, I don't even know what to CP and ban anymore at this point.
I honestly just hate this MU, and it's bad enough he's hard to kill and nearly impossible to gimp too.

 

[Labernash]

But Kirby tho.

D:

 

[Admiral Pit]

Shoot, I missed it. Okay, disregard my thing about Pit v Wario, or not, do what you want. Hope the info helps a bit, etc.

 

[Iota]

Something worth knowing is that you can SDI out of Kirby's f-throw follow-ups after the uair. Gonna stick to +1 for Wario.

 

[Anragon]

Hey guys, i'm back in match-ups discussions. Happy to see there's still activity here.

Now for the Kirby MU. There's not really good Kirbys in France but I fought decent ones (my brother is quite good with him).

First, for god sake, SDI the U-air upwards and away of him after the F-throw and you will end with just 18% instead of 40-50%.

Kirby give troubles to Wario because he walls him well. It's ******* hard to beat dat B-air, the better you can do is using your mobility and going under Kirby or behind him at the right time. Count the number of air jumps (maximum 5) he uses so you can approach more easily.

The goal in this match-up is put Kirby at kill % safely. You have to use your best damaging options and never let an opportunity to get some damages (pummel before using a throw, punishing, etc...).

Kirby is like Marth but with less threatening range and no grab release **** on us.
Also I feel like Waft is kinda hard to land on a good Kirby. He just have to avoid laggy moves. He has RCO tough, try to retaliate on that sometimes.

Kirby has a hard time killing Wario, I mean REALLY hard. B-air is always stale, Fsmash is telegraphed, Usmash is slow on start-up and Dsmash has somewhat short range. At 200% or lower with plateformes he can Up-Throw tough but there's too much you can do to him before he gets you at this %. If you get a smash in your face, then you have made really bad mistake or get read hard.

When you recover, recover high. Gimp's problem solved. Also Kirby aerial speed = crap. Don't follow Kirby offstage, it can be risky. Grab the edge when he tries grab it and punish the up-b landing.

For killing, Up-air is the best. Fsmash is nice but hard to land on the bubblegum. F-tilt can go through his range, really good thing to know but it kills a bit later.
Bite is decent but the disjointed hitboxes of Kirby make it risky. It's better to use it against ground approaches (though his grab is so good, he can even grab you with good spacing).

For the ratio, I will say it's +1 for Wario. Kirby has good range and walls but when it comes to kill, Wario does a way better job.

 

[xzx]

Croi: 0
Kawaii Vinyl.: +1
BPx: 0
J: 0
Labernash: 0
Iota: +1
hyoipear: +1
Shadocat: 0
MikeKirby: 0/+1
ccst: 0
LOE1: +1
xzx: 0
(S!C): +1
Anragon: +1

Okay, we have finished Kirby now. Let's move on to... hmm... what? Sheilda? Erhh... Let's move on to Sonic!

 

[da K.I.D.]

Sonic vs Wario is about +1 or so in warios favor. He pretty much has the same advantages over sonic that he has over most characters. Hard-to-hit-ability, weight, and kill power. It used to be much worse because sonic doesnt have a major range advantage over him and we were hard pressed to find a move that beat bite.

But its more even now because sonics fair does actually beat all of warios aerials so you cant just dair us for free anymore. We can punish your landings better than most, and avoid your kill moves because we are fast and mobile. Wario is fat so its easy to string low percent stuff on him, but his air mobility makes it a pain to chase him in the air for follow ups around 50-60 and after. Wario is going to spend most of the match baiting and punishing from the air, and sonic is going to spend most of the match baiting and punishing from the ground. But warios punishes are going to be easier and heavier (knockback wise) while sonic punishes will be harder (both in difficulty and in damage racking.

bite is a good tool against sonic, but only if the sonic is not expecting it. If we see it coming we will just go behind you for a free hard punish.

Sonic is at the height were sometimes if we grab you from the air, your legs dangle and we get an air release punish and sometimes we dont. but sonic can kill you at lower percents (~130) from the GR.

shielded f smashes give sonic a free f smash punish.

Dont let sonic get the lead.
We can charge side b (the one that makes him move backwards slightly and makes a small hop on release) and the beginning hop has invincibility frames for us to beat all your moves and extend the lead.

fart is a problem. the only way sonic wins this is by not dying early and holding a lead. if we get farted on at 70, it screws the whole game over.

the more patient player will win this, but its easier for wario due to his weight.
I found a pretty good match that shows how the sonic wants to play the matchup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD7zUyh1xdk
first match is just the sonic being a better player, but the send match shows how certain wario aspects like bite and patience want to be utilized.

 

[One-Up]

Bite Bite Bite.

 

[Lord Chair]

you guys are terrible at writeups

 

[Anragon]

I don't have any Sonic match-up's experience but it's definitely in Wario's favour. Let's say +2.

I just can't think of a reliable way for Sonic to kill. His B-air fresh kills at 150% or more with good DI. F-smash and Up-Air at the top of the screen are way too predictable and need a good read to hit. They can't air release us.
We survive forever and we can kill him much earlier.

Bite erases most of Sonic's approach options if used correctly. AC D-air is too good against him because he has some kind of a blindpost over him (up-air first hitboxes hit on sides, Usmash is slow on start-up and his grab is short) and it beats side-b and down-b most of the time.
Landing Fart isn't really hard, just wait the laggy move/airdodge or bait the counterattack Sonics always do when they recover with Up-B. PUNISH DAT DAIR AC THING HE TENDS TO DO WHEN HE´S HIGH, it just suxx.
Also don't try to punish Side-B or Down-B with OoS options. It's too fast and the hitbox is invincible. Bait it with Bite/D-air.

Ban DF, he's annoying there. This match-up doesn't need specific playstyle or requierments. Just focus on the match and don't let him disturb you with his speed and tricks. This is what he wants.

 

[Tesh]

Sonic doesn't have a blind spot above him at all. Even if he did, he is easily fast enough to make "above sonic" turn into "next to sonic" where his disjoints help more.

Waiting for a laggy move won't work so well if Sonic doesn't throw one out... Spindash is basically a jump with a hitbox and as soon as it hits your shield sonic can do whatever he wants (like airdodge, jump away, footstool, spring). You definitely want to lead into your farts like you said with edgeguards or baiting and airdodge, but Sonic has a pretty unique escape option in spring that complicates this on stage.

AC dair isn't that easy to punish. There is a disjoint there and its definitely a good dive attack.

Never seen someone say ban DF vs Sonic. I love that stage, but I can only assume most people would be annoyed more by Sonic on YI.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[DMG]

YI is auto ban imo lol. Never making the mistake of leaving that stage open again.

 

[JMan8891]

The point is that fair beats Wario aerials most of the time, if you are too predictable, we'll use only last hit Fair which is disjoint.

I would say +1. Like KID said, bite used to be a bigger bane back in the 08/09 Metagame. If I'm in a set and bite is a big enough problem to actually stuff approach options, then I have already learned that this wario WANTS to bite. Hence, bait and punish. And you missing a bite with a hard read punish isn't as bad as getting bit.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm not sure about YI being an autoban, Wario would pretty much never challenge Sonic on the ground, and would keep dancing on the platform. If anything, try to keep mixing his dodges near him when he's charging on the ground. But that's only my I-don't-know-a-thing-about-Sonic opinion.

 

[Tesh]

If you try to bite everything, you will leave yourself open to this bigger punishes like Fsmash, easy ASCs and Bair (tho this is going to be used vs almost everything you do anyway). Its hardly worth it for like 11 damage and no reliable follow ups past 0%.

edit: @ above, Its kind of like vs ICs, even if you can avoid the nasty stuff sonic is pulling off on the ground, you are basically giving him free ground control and putting yourself in a constant juggle.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Well, I don't see Sonic as an excellent Juggler.
But once again, I know nothing about him, that's probably where I am wrong with the MU.

 

[Croi]

I'm not sure about YI being an autoban, Wario would pretty much never challenge Sonic on the ground, and would keep dancing on the platform. If anything, try to keep mixing his dodges near him when he's charging on the ground. But that's only my I-don't-know-a-thing-about-Sonic opinion.

Sonic can do the Invincicopter trick on YI's ledges. All he does is stand on the slope and use side+B, and he's invincible. So, yeah, autoban.