Wario's Week 14 Matchup: Zero Suit Samus!

[Padô]

This week is sexy, not as sexy as Wario but still sexy:

Zero Suit Samus / ZSS / Hotness

Whatever...

Ain't got no experience AT ALL.
Seriously we lack ZSS around Brazil.
by the way, good discussion to all of you!

Discussion ends on Sunday.

 

[Dynomite]

I know this match up!!

first stock is dependent on armor pieces. if zero chooses to use them, wario has the advantage because he can bite then in desperate situations, although zerosuit does start off with them. If you can control the items its around 1/2 a stock in your advantage.

Watch for:

DownB: this move has so much priority and lasts too long, very annoying to deal with, i havnt gotten past it myself so i sugest just shielding it or avioding it completely.

Grab: zero does have an infinite grab on you, and can up air, fair, bair, nair, up tilt, up b, jump b, up smash side smash and maybe even side b. You can punish zerosuit for trying to grab you so its not so bad.

Up air: zero suit can junggle you like crazy with this move, after the up airs are done she can up B you and sometimes (depending on how u DI or where u are) she can bair you.

Up smash: this moves can be SDI'd out of. if zero up smashes you, SDI!!! you can punish with back air or fair/dair.

it is kinda hard to punish zerosuit samus, but it can be done, it is hard for zero to get in so she is most likely going to shoot at you and try and whip your sexy body.

Get zero above you. This match is mainly about control. zero wants you in her whip range and you want to be inside. who ever is below has the advantage.

Over all, in my opinion, 60:40 - Wario, but thats only if you know how to approach and not get hit with the stuns. Don't be too aggressive, be patient and look for openings in her attacks that she is always trying to stun you with.

 

[toobusytocare]

im pretty sure we can bike out of her "infinite"

 

[Dynomite]

im pretty sure we can bike out of her "infinite"

the main zero i play doesnt use the infinite so i wouldn't know. testing needed?

 

[PhantomX]

The grab > grab release > regrab is guaranteed. Grab release > dsmash > regrab is avoidable via bike.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[PhantomX]

You play keep away from Olimar? o_O

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[PhantomX]

It just seems counterproductive to me, because that's what they want, too, lol.

 

[Dynomite]

don't jump towards her if she's on a platform, free dsmash to the face. uair is also really good for juggling Wario... basically treat it like MK's uair.

be aware that a dsmash = death at a high (or even slightly high if ZSS's side-b isn't stale) percentage



ZSS has limited options after down-b is initiated (attack, not attack, walljump, or footstool if possible). If she attacks, she will have a lot of afterlag/langing lag which you can punish. if she doesn't attack... you can just hit her. She can also footstool you, even if you're shielding or have ledge invincibility. A good ZSS will abuse the fact that she can footstool you if she's trying to recover and you're edgehogging.

all this is true. you can punish zero after she lands. I would not suggest attacking straight forward while she has her leg out, it seems to come down so slow which throws me off until i regain composure and remember the priority, but yes you can wait or even shield punish it.

as for camping olimars go, i disagree...

 

[Padô]

Requesting numbers!

Discussion ending MondayNight!

 

[Tien2500]

I'll try my best here. I have some experience with Wario but not a ton. At the very least though I know ZSS well enough to hopefully prove somewhat useful.

First off you can bite ZSS' armor but if you telegraph it the most likely result is glide toss to down smash. ZSS won't be using Usmash much so don't worry about it.

ZSS' best tool here is Uair. I'm pretty sure the range on Uair is better than everything Wario has. Bair is disjointed too. She also has pretty good vertical air speed.

ZSS' ground game isn't that great and in particular her OOS game is lacking. Her best OOS options are Uair if you're in position or Utilt. Utilt is really fast (3 frames) but its also laggy at the end.

Being below you is also a bad position for ZSS. She has nothing to protect herself from underneath except dair which isn't usually a good option.

ZSS infinite shouldn't be an issue. I'm assuming most Wario mains are good enough to avoid getting grabbed and ZSS' grab game isn't amazing. Just be careful because her grab range allows her to punish things other characters may not. I haven't used the infinite but I'm fairly sure that grab release to F/B air is guaranteed if she does it right.

I'm pretty sure that Wario can't really punish Side B if spaced correctly but with Wario's mobility its fairly hard to use anyway.

Wario's weight is an advantage for him but since Wario likes to be in the air so much I have a much easier time landing a bair than against most other characters. Wario definitely has an advantage though in that category.

As far as gimping goes ZSS doesn't get gimped fery easily and I don't think that Wario has the tools to do it.

Overall I'd say its about even. If could be slightly in Wario's favor but at worst its 55:45 for him.

 

[Lord Chair]

ZSS has the advantage in the air, which is generally a bad thing for Wario.

Most of her kicking attacks (almost all of her A moves) can be described by 'Disjointed Legs of Steel' to say the least. When she takes the time to space you generally won't beat her while you're both airborne, unless you manage to get below her.

Of course avoid the grab, she has to buffer a grab in order to grab release infinite you, and any good ZSS will know how to do this. A whiffed grab by ZSS is extremely punishable though, and should give you a very generous timeframe to get a (semi-charged) fsmash in. Resulting in death at the usual ridiculously low percentages you count on against lightweights.

Shield pressure is easy, her grab comes out at like frame 16 iirc so you can safely poke around.

Bite is less useful in this matchup because of various reasons, the most important one being that her grab outranges it.

I'm stopping now because I have to go

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

ZSS has the advantage in the air, which is generally a bad thing for Wario.

Most of her kicking attacks (almost all of her A moves) can be described by 'Disjointed Legs of Steel' to say the least. When she takes the time to space you generally won't beat her while you're both airborne, unless you manage to get below her.

Of course avoid the grab, she has to buffer a grab in order to grab release infinite you, and any good ZSS will know how to do this. A whiffed grab by ZSS is extremely punishable though, and should give you a very generous timeframe to get a (semi-charged) fsmash in. Resulting in death at the usual ridiculously low percentages you count on against lightweights.

Shield pressure is easy, her grab comes out at like frame 16 iirc so you can safely poke around.

Bite is less useful in this matchup because of various reasons, the most important one being that her grab outranges it.

I'm stopping now because I have to go

How does her grab outranging bite make it less useful ?

 

[Tien2500]

How does her grab outranging bite make it less useful ?

Because if you whiff bite ZSS can punish it with a grab and since she has an infinite on Wario its probably not worth it. Even without the infinite ZSS has Dsmash to punish if it whiffs so its best not to use it unless you're 100% sure its going to hit. ZSS hates being in that close range anyway so if she's spacing properly bite shouldn't be a big factor in this match.

 

[PhantomX]

You can't space a Wario "properly" all game or he isn't doing his job... also, the only thing ZSS has on Wario is Uair (it's a big thing, but it still means it's her only good option, meaning it's easier to bait and punish).

 

[toobusytocare]

her up b is also kinda annoying

 

[Romulox2010]

You can't space a Wario "properly" all game or he isn't doing his job... also, the only thing ZSS has on Wario is Uair (it's a big thing, but it still means it's her only good option, meaning it's easier to bait and punish).

Is it possible to bike out of an uair combo? or does that knock us off the bike?

 

[Tien2500]

You can't space a Wario "properly" all game or he isn't doing his job... also, the only thing ZSS has on Wario is Uair (it's a big thing, but it still means it's her only good option, meaning it's easier to bait and punish).

Even if you can't space Wario properly all game the utility of bite is pretty minimal here.

Bair also outranges all of Wario's aerials. Nair might too. I'm not sure how exactly you'd punish Uair. Airdodging will usually just wind up with you getting hit with another Uair as you come out of it and Wario's aerials can't punish it to the best of my knowledge. Its very fast and has little lag.

As for comboing I don't think Wario would be able to break out with his bike at low percents. But past like 30ish you should be able to.

 

[PhantomX]

Bike doesn't break combos. It appears at like frame 1 or 2 but doesn't have a hitbox til frame 12 or so, way too slow (but it helps against Sheik tilt lock b/c it drops and tilts will pick up items). Bite can eat you out of most if not all of your aerials unless you've perfectly spaced them, which, once again, shouldn't be too easy if the Wario is doing his job.

Also, you wouldn't airdodge into the ZSS, you'd airdodge away or fastfall airdodge so the followup doesn't hit or you can use a shieldgrab. Bair doesn't have a very vertical hitbox so it won't be of much use (upair/upsmash are good b/c htey cover the area above/infront of you). Get under a platform with her if you can and you'll be golden until the Wario manages to sneak in a shieldgrab.

 

[Tien2500]

Oh are you talking about approaching with Uair? This can but usually won't be used as an approach. I was talking about Uair against an already airborne Wario. Bair is safe as an approach against a ground based Wario. But from all that I've seen/experienced Wario doesn't chill on the ground too much.

Usmash isn't really that useful. Its fine in theory but you have to commit to it and have your opponent right above you. Generally Up air is a much better option.

Btw before finalizing this matchup ratio you guys should probably recruit some guys from the ZSS board to discuss it. They probably have more ZSS experience than I do.

 

[Nefarious B]

ZSS has the tools to keep Wario out compared to most of the cast, her zoning is some of the best in the game, and her speed, both in attack speed and movement speed, is also top.

Both characters don't really like fighting on the ground so that's nice for ZS since her ground game isn't the best.

Also don't eat the pieces, it's a terrible idea for anyone with a "bite" style move. We start out with 3, and I always throw one immediately at someone with a move like that, hoping they'll use it so I can throw another one. If they're good with the pieces zero suit will use pieces more to force a dodge or start a combo than to actually damage you with them, and if they're fresh enough they will kill you much earlier than you're used to, so beware.

Pretty much what I've found this match comes down to is how well ZS can avoid the farts. If a Wario can land 1-2 early farts he should win, if she manages to avoid them I find that she will generally have the edge in building damage and thus a slight advantage in finishing.

Also, if they predict your bike out of the infinite dsmash loop, I think we can just run to the other side and pivot grab you off the bike, so it would then just be sitting there allowing us to use the dsmash loop anyways.

If you're using a lot of double jump dair dive bombs, or just double jumping a lot in general and being somewhat predictable about where you land, ZS can grab you out of your landing with you not being able to outrange it at all, so make sure to mixup your landings and be careful with the DJ

To me it feels like 55-45 for ZS if she can avoid farts, but this is easier said then done obviously, so I'd give the nod to either 50-50 or 55-45 Wario. I feel that she deals with what he has better than just about the entire cast.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I agree with chair on this one, I'd like to add that bair is a nice option too.

It's kinda like wolf's bair and fsmash, as soon as wolf starts spacing bairs people focus on it, and screw up on their fsmash spacing. If a zero decides to wall in the air and semi approach with bair, she can always reverse a sideB which often catches you offguard.
Bair+sideB is a lethal wall to anyone without multiple jumps.

it can swing from either 60/40 ZSS to 60/40 wario depending on landing the infinite and the farts. it's a strange matchup imo.

BTW nef, warios bite swallow has iasa, so he can swallow your next piece.

And to the guy below me, what nef meant was that if you use bike to get out, planning on escaping the dsmash, we can pivot grab you off the bike, meaning we now CAN use the dsmash, which makes it alot easier.
conclusion: If you bike you get regrabbed, if you dont bike you get dsmashed

 

[smashkng]

ZSS has the tools to keep Wario out compared to most of the cast, her zoning is some of the best in the game, and her speed, both in attack speed and movement speed, is also top.

Both characters don't really like fighting on the ground so that's nice for ZS since her ground game isn't the best.

Also don't eat the pieces, it's a terrible idea for anyone with a "bite" style move. We start out with 3, and I always throw one immediately at someone with a move like that, hoping they'll use it so I can throw another one. If they're good with the pieces zero suit will use pieces more to force a dodge or start a combo than to actually damage you with them, and if they're fresh enough they will kill you much earlier than you're used to, so beware.

Pretty much what I've found this match comes down to is how well ZS can avoid the farts. If a Wario can land 1-2 early farts he should win, if she manages to avoid them I find that she will generally have the edge in building damage and thus a slight advantage in finishing.

Also, if they predict your bike out of the infinite dsmash loop, I think we can just run to the other side and pivot grab you off the bike, so it would then just be sitting there allowing us to use the dsmash loop anyways.

If you're using a lot of double jump dair dive bombs, or just double jumping a lot in general and being somewhat predictable about where you land, ZS can grab you out of your landing with you not being able to outrange it at all, so make sure to mixup your landings and be careful with the DJ

To me it feels like 55-45 for ZS if she can avoid farts, but this is easier said then done obviously, so I'd give the nod to either 50-50 or 55-45 Wario. I feel that she deals with what he has better than just about the entire cast.

But ZSS must dsmash right after the release. So Wario can know if she is just waiting to bike so nope, against a good Wario that trick is useless. Lol a useless trick.

 

[PhantomX]

We're biking away from you to avoid the dsmash, so the pivot grab won't really have time to hit.

Also, side B isn't really all that great against Wario. I've found that at random times he can just like, go through it with his attacks/jumps/whatever.

I do agree that it's a fairly even matchup, though.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

We're biking away from you to avoid the dsmash, so the pivot grab won't really have time to hit.

Also, side B isn't really all that great against Wario. I've found that at random times he can just like, go through it with his attacks/jumps/whatever.

I do agree that it's a fairly even matchup, though.

Not if you boost pivot, so I heard.

SideB isn't great, but sideB isn't an attack. it's to create a 'keep out zone' and helps us get the upper hand in terms of positioning. It won't hit if you're smart, or so you think. It doesn't hit the character, it hits the zoning.

 

[PhantomX]

Nah, that's what I'm saying. LIke randomly, unless Wario gets hit by the ball tip of the whip, he won't be affected by the actual whip while he's doing a move (it's gone straight through bite a couple times o_O) and thus get through your zoning.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Nah, that's what I'm saying. LIke randomly, unless Wario gets hit by the ball tip of the whip, he won't be affected by the actual whip while he's doing a move (it's gone straight through bite a couple times o_O) and thus get through your zoning.

So wario's a strange guy on the z-axis aye?

Anyowho, most ZSS try spacing it at the end of the whip/start of the tip, so if it hits it's the full 19%.

 

[Tien2500]

Nah, that's what I'm saying. LIke randomly, unless Wario gets hit by the ball tip of the whip, he won't be affected by the actual whip while he's doing a move (it's gone straight through bite a couple times o_O) and thus get through your zoning.

There is a dead spot in ZSS' whip so my guess is that it was spaced wrong. If it hits at the tip though there is no reason that you wouldn't get hit so my guess is that you saw it wrong or something.

 

[PhantomX]

When I played Snakeee the only time it was really safe for him to Plasma Whip was when he did it from offstage.

 

[Snakeee]

When I played Snakeee the only time it was really safe for him to Plasma Whip was when he did it from offstage.

It's still not safe there. As, I've been trying to say everywhere now, d-smash, side B, and paralyzer are basically useless and I very rarely use them. I love this match up though, it feels really even to me. We're one of the only characters that can shut down Wario well in the air .
I mostly try to bait and punish here, as in most match ups, but more so vs. Wario. Of course Wario's pressure game is tough though. Maybe I'll go more into it later.

 

[Tien2500]

I'm not saying plasma whip will be particularly useful in this match... I'm just saying it won't just go through Wario. Lol. You might find a few times to use it depending on how the Wario playes but its kind of meh here.

 

[Snakeee]

I'm not saying plasma whip will be particularly useful in this match... I'm just saying it won't just go through Wario. Lol. You might find a few times to use it depending on how the Wario playes but its kind of meh here.

Well if I do something like predict the bike perfectly I might side B, or if I predict the f-smash, a d-smash would be amazing. I'm not saying they're absolutely useless, but have very occasional and situational use.

 

[Tien2500]

Well if I do something like predict the bike perfectly I might side B, or if I predict the f-smash, a d-smash would be amazing. I'm not saying they're absolutely useless, but have very occasional and situational use.

Eh my above post was actually supposed to be responding to Phantom. But the usefulness of Side B and Dsmash are inversely proportional to how good your opponent is particularly at spacing. If you're opponent is careless with spacing Dsmash is amazing.

 

[Padô]

Since we got loads of good discussion here... I'm extending this till Friday =)

 

[PhantomX]

It's still not safe there. As, I've been trying to say everywhere now, d-smash, side B, and paralyzer are basically useless and I very rarely use them. I love this match up though, it feels really even to me. We're one of the only characters that can shut down Wario well in the air .
I mostly try to bait and punish here, as in most match ups, but more so vs. Wario. Of course Wario's pressure game is tough though. Maybe I'll go more into it later.

Basically this. Also, watch out for powershield > waft punishes, amirite, Snakeee

 

[Snakeee]

Basically this. Also, watch out for powershield > waft punishes, amirite, Snakeee

Ugh, it's the same reason I hate fighting Bang in Blazblue

 

[Gichan]

Those pieces of the suit are so important in this matchup, at least it is what I found. If I can get my hands on one of those I can easily rack up damage. I put more focus on baiting the ZSS to throw them at me so I can either grab them, bite them, or waste one of the three. once those pieces are out of the way, it is hard for them to rack damage or have a "projectile" of sorts for us to worry about.

If we get them, it is like having a tire, we can glide toss them or space them throwing down.

As for approaching, dair is obviuously our best choice but we have to either condition the ZSS player to our dairs and then DJFF dair, OR, simply jump/airdodge away until they become vulnerable (after wasting their move) and hit them. Or simply attempt to Powershield until one approaches closer to ZSS, at this point they will be attempting to conditioning you into shielding their projectile or attacks, and you bait the attempted grab and **** them.

Although basic, it is usually some good stuff that people may forget. Once again though, I put a lot of emphasis on those items at the beginning of the match.

 

[Snakeee]

Those pieces of the suit are so important in this matchup, at least it is what I found. If I can get my hands on one of those I can easily rack up damage. I put more focus on baiting the ZSS to throw them at me so I can either grab them, bite them, or waste one of the three. once those pieces are out of the way, it is hard for them to rack damage or have a "projectile" of sorts for us to worry about.

If we get them, it is like having a tire, we can glide toss them or space them throwing down.

As for approaching, dair is obviuously our best choice but we have to either condition the ZSS player to our dairs and then DJFF dair, OR, simply jump/airdodge away until they become vulnerable (after wasting their move) and hit them. Or simply attempt to Powershield until one approaches closer to ZSS, at this point they will be attempting to conditioning you into shielding their projectile or attacks, and you bait the attempted grab and **** them.

Although basic, it is usually some good stuff that people may forget. Once again though, I put a lot of emphasis on those items at the beginning of the match.

The items aren't much of a factor at all in this match up the majority of the time. I only keep one anyway.

 

[MrEh]

Ugh, it's the same reason I hate fighting Bang in Blazblue

*instant block*

Nu: "Oh crap...."

Bang: "TO RID THIS WORLD OF EVIL!!! I WILL BECOME...THE HAMMER...OF JUSTICE!!!"