Wario's Week 34 Matchup Discussion: YOSHI!

[brningpyre]

So if I was stage-striking against a Yoshi with the neutrals: FD, BF, SV, PS1, Halberd, Lylat, and YI, I should strike FD, BF, Yoshi's, and Halberd if I get first pick?.

 

[Dynomite]

@dyno, learn to SDI, PLEASE. He really has no combos b/c all his good approach/setup moves are multihit. Just like Wario he'll have some stuff at low percentages (though nothing as easy to land as our upair > upair) but that's it.

Yoshi is just in a better position to hit us again after stuff like bair than we are out of dair. Be honest, wario is mainly poking with strong one hit moves and spacing out again. Yoshi can bair>bair /Bair>ftilt/ up tilt>upsmash (just a few examples.) Dont tell me your going to read EVERY one of his bairs and dairs to sdi, if so, why are you not considered one of the top 5 warios? Why did you "quit" By the way, yoshi only has 2 moves worth the SDI effort. last i checked bair, dair doesnt count as ALL his moves. I said yoshi has more combo ability than wario, not a whole lot just more. dont get your phanties wet and go off telling me to learn how to SDI.

overall: 50:50/45:55

 

[PhantomX]

Bair DOESN'T COMBO, hence why I just told you to LEARN TO SDI. Hell, he shouldn't even be hitting you with all the hits, lol. You can do that **** on reaction, on both bair and dair.

Haha at the top 5 Warios thing, you're just making yourself look progressively more ******** by bringing up irrelevant points to an argument. Let's use a biased popularity list to get at him, and ignore the fact that he'd already quit singles when they started making it! And attacking my quitting is along the same vein of weak reasoning. I quit because I like saving money, got bored with the game, and am starting medical school. No matter how I look at it, I'm making the good decision. Non sequiturs are great though, so please continue.

The fact that you still think you should only SDI certain moves shows your limitations as a player. EVERYTHING should be SDId that can be, as it makes you SAFE FROM FOLLOWUPS or puts you in a position to punish better and helps you survive kill moves longer. At high levels of play things are super easy to SDI. I could SDI Snake's jabs and Lucario's dairs pretty consistently and those are much faster than Yoshi's options.

But hey, if you want to ignore my advice, I'll be glad to stop giving it... because it's not like I'm the guy who's always right in his advice or evaluations of anything.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Delta-cod]

Really? Your argument for having a grab beaten out is "do the grab farther away?" Lol. I guess you don't play people who can wait and then punish things on reaction? I can easily just Jump towards you, wait for something, and if nothing happens, dj away and repeat the process. If you're trying to grab, I am in no danger, and then you run out of stage while trying to mindgame me, and THEN you get *****.

I think you misunderstood me. If you see a Wario jump at you and you do a quick pivot, you'll likely get hit immediately, whereas if you run further and he lands, you'll get the grab. I even admitted that we'll run out of stage and that it doesn't break this situation. And if you DJ away, then all we have to do is dash back to where we started. Ground will be lost, but it's not as though we're on the ledge after one attempt, lol.

Yoshi cannot combo Wario well AT ALL if he's in the air, guys. Learn to DI and listen to Phantom about this. If you're on the ground, we have a couple of quick FF Bair combos, but that's about it. Since you'll be in the air most of the time, it'll end up being either a string of reads and punishes or nothing.

 

[Dynomite]

Bair DOESN'T COMBO, hence why I just told you to LEARN TO SDI. Hell, he shouldn't even be hitting you with all the hits, lol. You can do that **** on reaction, on both bair and dair.

Haha at the top 5 Warios thing, you're just making yourself look progressively more ******** by bringing up irrelevant points to an argument. Let's use a biased popularity list to get at him, and ignore the fact that he'd already quit singles when they started making it! And attacking my quitting is along the same vein of weak reasoning. I quit because I like saving money, got bored with the game, and am starting medical school. No matter how I look at it, I'm making the good decision. Non sequiturs are great though, so please continue.

The fact that you still think you should only SDI certain moves shows your limitations as a player. EVERYTHING should be SDId that can be, as it makes you SAFE FROM FOLLOWUPS or puts you in a position to punish better and helps you survive kill moves longer. At high levels of play things are super easy to SDI. I could SDI Snake's jabs and Lucario's dairs pretty consistently and those are much faster than Yoshi's options.

But hey, if you want to ignore my advice, I'll be glad to stop giving it... because it's not like I'm the guy who's always right in his advice or evaluations of anything.

K you arer right. After all your the one going to med school.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yoshi is just in a better position to hit us again after stuff like bair than we are out of dair. Be honest, wario is mainly poking with strong one hit moves and spacing out again. Yoshi can bair>bair /Bair>ftilt/ up tilt>upsmash (just a few examples.) Dont tell me your going to read EVERY one of his bairs and dairs to sdi, if so, why are you not considered one of the top 5 warios? Why did you "quit" By the way, yoshi only has 2 moves worth the SDI effort. last i checked bair, dair doesnt count as ALL his moves. I said yoshi has more combo ability than wario, not a whole lot just more. dont get your phanties wet and go off telling me to learn how to SDI.

overall: 50:50/45:55

Bair DOESN'T COMBO, hence why I just told you to LEARN TO SDI. Hell, he shouldn't even be hitting you with all the hits, lol. You can do that **** on reaction, on both bair and dair.

Haha at the top 5 Warios thing, you're just making yourself look progressively more ******** by bringing up irrelevant points to an argument. Let's use a biased popularity list to get at him, and ignore the fact that he'd already quit singles when they started making it! And attacking my quitting is along the same vein of weak reasoning. I quit because I like saving money, got bored with the game, and am starting medical school. No matter how I look at it, I'm making the good decision. Non sequiturs are great though, so please continue.

The fact that you still think you should only SDI certain moves shows your limitations as a player. EVERYTHING should be SDId that can be, as it makes you SAFE FROM FOLLOWUPS or puts you in a position to punish better and helps you survive kill moves longer. At high levels of play things are super easy to SDI. I could SDI Snake's jabs and Lucario's dairs pretty consistently and those are much faster than Yoshi's options.

But hey, if you want to ignore my advice, I'll be glad to stop giving it... because it's not like I'm the guy who's always right in his advice or evaluations of anything.

Actually PX is considered a top 5 Wario.

Malcolm
BlueRogue
PhantomX
Bassem
DMG
Fiction

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267925

^_^. I win the interwebz.

K you arer right. After all your the one going to med school.

You shouldn't just agree with PX just for the sake of agreeing with him.

 

[PhantomX]

Your link is botched, Legendary.

@dyno - I'm giving the advice for your own good, because I no longer derive benefit from any of it. You can choose to ignore it, and you can disagree with parts of it, just don't disagree with the parts that are right and then bash me

@Delta-cod - obviously I was oversimplifying since this is a matchup discussion. It's not going to be the easiest thing in the world to avoid all of Yoshi's grabs or to make him run out of space if they are competent, we just have the capability to do so and should make that a large part of our strategy. Just like much in this game, it ultimately comes down to patience.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Oh wow lol well the link is fixed now.

 

[PhantomX]

It's still a biased and popularity list. Now that it has me up there it's also inaccurate as it has retired players, lol.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It's still a biased and popularity list. Now that it has me up there it's also inaccurate as it has retired players, lol.

*shrugs* what can I say the ppl love you PX.

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

Dyno, I agree with PX on the SDI stuff. Even if you (also me) can't SDI on reaction you can't base matchup opinions on that. It's supposed to be based on the highest level of play.

I played a few friendlies against Nacho, a local Yoshi, and I still feel similarly. I won one of the games even, but I had to play really really defensively. I chilled on the moving platform on SV for a while just power shielding eggs.

Are standing infinites usually banned? Green Ace never really did them to me, he just Upsmashed. But Nacho was just mashing R+A for at least 2 minutes.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Dyno, I agree with PX on the SDI stuff. Even if you (also me) can't SDI on reaction you can't base matchup opinions on that. It's supposed to be based on the highest level of play.

I played a few friendlies against Nacho, a local Yoshi, and I still feel similarly. I won one of the games even, but I had to play really really defensively. I chilled on the moving platform on SV for a while just power shielding eggs.

Are standing infinites usually banned? Green Ace never really did them to me, he just Upsmashed. But Nacho was just mashing R+A for at least 2 minutes.

No standing infinities aren't banned.

 

[PhantomX]

They aren't banned but if they are pummeling you you can mash out to ground break (does this work for Yoshi? I'm not 100%). And if they're going for the regrab you can actually buffer mash inputs. Pummels don't do much damage, so most Yoshis just go for the guaranteed damage.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi will always cause an air release unless you break out within the early frames of the grab. I think if you break out before entering his mouth, you'll ground break. Otherwise it'll always be an air release.

Guys, listen to PX here, he knows what's going down.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

They aren't banned but if they are pummeling you you can mash out to ground break (does this work for Yoshi? I'm not 100%). And if they're going for the regrab you can actually buffer mash inputs. Pummels don't do much damage, so most Yoshis just go for the guaranteed damage.

Na Yoshi will always air release.

 

[Dynomite]

Are standing infinites usually banned? Green Ace never really did them to me, he just Upsmashed. But Nacho was just mashing R+A for at least 2 minutes.

Its iffy, but mainly if its used to stall, its banned.

FFS i -can- SDI. **** it, you see what u do phantx

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

They aren't banned but if they are pummeling you you can mash out to ground break (does this work for Yoshi? I'm not 100%). And if they're going for the regrab you can actually buffer mash inputs. Pummels don't do much damage, so most Yoshis just go for the guaranteed damage.

Wait, seriously? If you don't even know that Yoshi has a really easy infinite on Wario I sort of doubt the validity of your previous opinions. How many Yoshi's have you played?

Sure you can SDI out of his stuff, but on a bunch of stages if you get grabbed in the right place it's a stock. Seriously.

-Anywhere on FD
-In the middle or sides of BF where the platforms can't save you
-In middle of the flying platform of Delfino (if it's the right place not even the stage change will help)
-Sides of YI
-On SV you'll take an average of 25 damage before the platform saves you, and you can shield before he can upair

He'll GR to regrab until kill percent then upsmash. It's really easy.

"Don't get grabbed"

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Wait, seriously? If you don't even know that Yoshi has a really easy infinite on Wario I sort of doubt the validity of your previous opinions. How many Yoshi's have you played?

Sure you can SDI out of his stuff, but on a bunch of stages if you get grabbed in the right place it's a stock. Seriously.

-Anywhere on FD
-In the middle or sides of BF where the platforms can't save you
-In middle of the flying platform of Delfino (if it's the right place not even the stage change will help)
-Sides of YI
-On SV you'll take an average of 25 damage before the platform saves you, and you can shield before he can upair

He'll GR to regrab until kill percent then upsmash. It's really easy.

"Don't get grabbed"

I wouldn't say it's easy the timing is pretty strange for the re grab.

 

[Dynomite]

LOL i just thought of super mindgames.. (something really dumb) if there is like 2 min left in the match and you plan on timing out a yoshi and you have a full stock lead... get grabbed.

make yoshi waste the 2 minutes grab releasing you. >.<

 

[Delta-cod]

Wait, seriously? If you don't even know that Yoshi has a really easy infinite on Wario I sort of doubt the validity of your previous opinions. How many Yoshi's have you played?

Sure you can SDI out of his stuff, but on a bunch of stages if you get grabbed in the right place it's a stock. Seriously.

-Anywhere on FD
-In the middle or sides of BF where the platforms can't save you
-In middle of the flying platform of Delfino (if it's the right place not even the stage change will help)
-Sides of YI
-On SV you'll take an average of 25 damage before the platform saves you, and you can shield before he can upair

He'll GR to regrab until kill percent then upsmash. It's really easy.

"Don't get grabbed"

FD will be banned.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to grab Wario on BF?
The stage change will help. It causes people to fall faster out of a grab release, causing them to hit the ground earlier and escape the CG.
YI is slanted and this messes up the CG freqently.
Yes to SV, although we'll Usmash before the platform for additional damage.

If we do get the infinite, we'll grab to regrab and then Uair for the kill, not usmash. Uair is a stronger killer.

Don't go criticizing people on not knowing about Yoshi's infinite CG when you yourself aren't 100% sure on how it works.

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

What do you mean I don't know how it works? Hold R and mash A.

And yes FD will be banned, but there are enough other choices that getting GR chained on at least 2 out of the 3 games is unavoidable. Even on Brinstar you can get chained. Granted if played correctly it shouldn't happen, but what if you make one bad move or Yoshi makes a good read? Even the best players make mistakes.

And Wario wont land on the ground fast enough on Delfino to avoid getting regrabbed. The only thing that might screw it up is that moment where you fall from the platform a very small height and land on the stage feature. If Yoshi were to start a grab right at that moment it would cancel halfway through the animation and Wario could escape.

And I'm not criticizing him for not know about the chain, just that he is giving absolutes on a topic he is unsure of. It's misinformation.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

What do you mean I don't know how it works? Hold R and mash A.

And yes FD will be banned, but there are enough other choices that getting GR chained on at least 2 out of the 3 games is unavoidable. Even on Brinstar you can get chained. Granted if played correctly it shouldn't happen, but what if you make one bad move or Yoshi makes a good read? Even the best players make mistakes.

And Wario wont land on the ground fast enough on Delfino to avoid getting regrabbed. The only thing that might screw it up is that moment where you fall from the platform a very small height and land on the stage feature. If Yoshi were to start a grab right at that moment it would cancel halfway through the animation and Wario could escape.

And I'm not criticizing him for not know about the chain, just that he is giving absolutes on a topic he is unsure of. It's misinformation.

The chain grab doesn't work like that. You have to regrab Wario at a specific point when Yoshi's mouth opens whoever told you that you just hold R and mash A lied to you.

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

Why do you insist on quoting posts right above yours?

Ok, I just went to the Yoshi boards to look that up and I'm indeed wrong. Sorry.

It still puts Wario as somewhere in the middle on the scale of difficulty. I'm sure it's a lot easier than ICs chaingrabs meaning it's certainly not unreasonable to assume a proficient Yoshi could do it until death.

 

[Delta-cod]

What do you mean I don't know how it works? Hold R and mash A.

And yes FD will be banned, but there are enough other choices that getting GR chained on at least 2 out of the 3 games is unavoidable. Even on Brinstar you can get chained. Granted if played correctly it shouldn't happen, but what if you make one bad move or Yoshi makes a good read? Even the best players make mistakes.

And Wario wont land on the ground fast enough on Delfino to avoid getting regrabbed. The only thing that might screw it up is that moment where you fall from the platform a very small height and land on the stage feature. If Yoshi were to start a grab right at that moment it would cancel halfway through the animation and Wario could escape.

And I'm not criticizing him for not know about the chain, just that he is giving absolutes on a topic he is unsure of. It's misinformation.

Okay, I've played this MU. Against a high level Wario. I know how the GR works. It's not as effective as you say, or the MU would be Yoshi's favor. Also, you CAN'T mash R+A. The timing won't always work. If you don't time the grab well enough, you'll do it too early, and Wario will escape.

The chain grab doesn't work like that. You have to regrab Wario at a specific point when Yoshi's mouth opens whoever told you that you just hold R and mash A lied to you.

This.

Humpy, a proficient Wario will not get grabbed in a usable spot for the infinite to matter. Average Warios will get ***** by the CG. It won't matter to very good ones.

 

[bigman40]

Apparently, I can't comment on the MU anymore cause I play far too differently from other Yoshis. Have at it people.

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

Delta-Cod, I've heard of you and as far as Yoshi's go if I've heard of you then you're probably very good. Why isn't the CG as effective as it seems? I'm not coming from a numbers stand point anymore. I just want some advice because I don't get what to do about it. You're just saying a good Wario avoids it, but without saying how.

Wario is supposed to be all over the place. He's got amazing aerial mobility and using that is how can I see Wario getting kills, but if I have to limit myself to stay in locations where I can't be CG'd it just seems like I'm giving up the only advantage Wario has over Yoshi.

If I'm sitting on top of the SV platform I'm unable to hit him, but he can still take pot-shots at me. If I go down and try and beat him normally I can rack up some damage or try and gimp him, but eventually I'll get grabbed and GG.

 

[Delta-cod]

Apparently, I can't comment on the MU anymore cause I play far too differently from other Yoshis. Have at it people.

I'm interested in seeing how you play the MUs. It might help everyone see a different and possibly more effective approach to the battle.

Delta-Cod, I've heard of you and as far as Yoshi's go if I've heard of you then you're probably very good. Why isn't the CG as effective as it seems? I'm not coming from a numbers stand point anymore. I just want some advice because I don't get what to do about it. You're just saying a good Wario avoids it, but without saying how.

Wario is supposed to be all over the place. He's got amazing aerial mobility and using that is how can I see Wario getting kills, but if I have to limit myself to stay in locations where I can't be CG'd it just seems like I'm giving up the only advantage Wario has over Yoshi.

If I'm sitting on top of the SV platform I'm unable to hit him, but he can still take pot-shots at me. If I go down and try and beat him normally I can rack up some damage or try and gimp him, but eventually I'll get grabbed and GG.

You just need to be patient. SV is probably the most dangerous stage for you. All other times you can ensure that you'll land under a platform. Just don't run into the ****. Be patient, wait for us to do something, and stay safe. If you get too aggressive in this match up, you'll just get *****.

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

More random advice that I'm just spewing as it comes to mind: We can't short hop over his grab.

 

[Delta-cod]

You can SH to him to bait the grab and then DJ over and punish.

Wario has a lot of air mobility, abuse it and bait the grab, since we really want it, and punish.

 

[PhantomX]

Wait, seriously? If you don't even know that Yoshi has a really easy infinite on Wario I sort of doubt the validity of your previous opinions. How many Yoshi's have you played?

Sure you can SDI out of his stuff, but on a bunch of stages if you get grabbed in the right place it's a stock. Seriously.

I don't get grabbed at high percents very often (unless protected by a platform) by almost anyone, and at low percents I tend to ground break, I just wasn't sure if you could ALWAYS ground break during pummels, which is why I asked. Regrab infinites are very easy to botch anyways, and for the little damage the pummels do, generally not worth it outside of time-wasting.

 

[SnackAttack]

I'm interested in seeing how you play the MUs. It might help everyone see a different and possibly more effective approach to the battle.



You just need to be patient. SV is probably the most dangerous stage for you. All other times you can ensure that you'll land under a platform. Just don't run into the ****. Be patient, wait for us to do something, and stay safe. If you get too aggressive in this match up, you'll just get *****.

More than FD?

Really?

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

Oh. Well that's cool.

"Section 7: Ground Breaks

OK so we lied: Yoshi doesn't always air release his opponent. HOWEVER, it's something only your opponent can control. There are a certain number of frames before the opponent enters Yoshi's mouth where, if the opponent mashes fast enough, he can force a ground break out of the grab. In the event of this occurring, standard ground breaking rules apply, so you regain control at the same time your opponent does. Jabbing is usually a safe bet, but don't be surprised if you get power shielded. Of course, damage still determines how much you have to mash to get out, so ground breaking is only something you have to worry about at low percents (The highest I've ever seen someone ground break at was 60, and only the best of the mashers will be able to do THAT to you)."

 

[Delta-cod]

More than FD?

Really?

Are you ever gonna let us go to FD?

Really?

I mean, SV is probably our realistically best stage. We should never get the chance to go FD. Ever.

 

[PhantomX]

Cod, you should reconsider that. Considering WE control when we release, that SV platform could cost you many kills if we simply wait for the platform to come around (not foolproof of course as it depends on our percentage and where the platform is).

I still think your best stage against us is Yoshi's (FD excluded, of course). The platform there is garbage for saving us from GR, and you could camp all game with eggs and upsmash in response to whatever we do. Honestly, I'd almost rather go to FD than there sometimes.

 

[Delta-cod]

Hm, you've got a point.

I've personally never tried Yoshi's because I play poorly on that stage. However, the slopes can mess up the GR. I should try it out sometime though.

 

[toobusytocare]

60:40 warios favor

 

[Waymas]

dont know wut too say i barely got yoshi exp , just becareful with his pivot that means try to bait yoshi and punish , his OoS options suxs , yoshi got stage control so be careful . And dont be afraid of the egg planking.

 

[DMG]

I think I'm probably the most experienced Wario with this matchup actually. Used to play Bwett all the time back when he played Yoshi, and even got some games in with Poltergust (half tournament half friendlies). It's Wario's favor IMO and on FD at worst I think it could be even (however when given the chance, I go Diddy Kong if a Yoshi wants to take me there. Guaranteed advantage there compared with Diddy). The main problem with FD IMO is that although the flatness favors you for grab releasing, coming back from a larger deficit is much harder because of how much room Wario is given to play keep away. Sitting in one spot and throwing eggs isn't viable to stop him, and Yoshi usually tries to have Wario approaching him not the other way around.

This discussion feels old. I remember talking to Mmac about why MK beats Yoshi and why Wario doesn't lose to Yoshi 65:35 lmao.