Ways to spice up competitive?

[Atm0s]

We all know Brawl is pretty much dead in the smash community, but that can't stop us from thinking up ways to make it more exciting. I was thinking that maybe items, stages, or limitations for certain characters could spice up the game and make it more entertaining and fun to play. Any ideas?

 

[DualX]

Serious answer: Project M.

Competitive gaming is more exciting when you see players doing maneuvers that takes awhile to master. When you take away that skill gap, make the game way slower, and add all of the odd nuances that Brawl and Smash 4 does, then you get what we have now. A dead community. It's simply too casual friendly for it to be taken seriously on that type of level of play. Smash 4 is in it's honey moon phase. I don't see it having a lasting competitive community (maybe a bit longer than what Brawl had) when something better comes along which may be another mod that implements Melee tech.

 

[Atm0s]

Serious answer: Project M.

Competitive gaming is more exciting when you see players doing maneuvers that takes awhile to master. When you take away that skill gap, make the game way slower, and add all of the odd nuances that Brawl and Smash 4 does, then you get what we have now. A dead community. It's simply too casual friendly for it to be taken seriously on that type of level of play. Smash 4 is in it's honey moon phase. I don't see it having a lasting competitive community (maybe a bit longer than what Brawl had) when something better comes along which may be another mod that implements Melee tech.

That might happen, but I honestly doubt it. When you think about why Brawl failed so much competitively, it really comes down to melee veterans enjoying their current engine and way of playing more than Brawl's. I think that by now the people who want to play a Melee like game are playing Melee/ Project M, and the people who want to play Smash 4 are playing Smash 4. Sure, a mod might pop up, but I don't think it will move the entire Smash 4 community over. Also, the Smash 4 meta right now isn't nearly as boring as Brawl's, and is far more entertaining (more offense), so I really think Smash 4 is here to stay.

 

[DualX]

I don't think that's the case and that's because of one thing. Do you know of any causal videogame that has stood the test of time tournament wise?

Brawl didn't. Logically, Smash 4 won't either.

I see Smash 4 being a gateway for new players being introduced into the series to be then converted into either Melee and/or PM players when really looking to compete.

 

[Atm0s]

I don't think that's the case and that's because of one thing. Do you know of any causal videogame that has stood the test of time tournament wise?

Brawl didn't. Logically, Smash 4 won't either.

I see Smash 4 being a gateway for new players being introduced into the series to be then converted into either Melee and/or PM players when really looking to compete.

Well of course I haven't, because the only casual game I've ever heard official tournaments of is Smash. But not just Smash 4. Every Smash game was intended to be casual. The melee community somehow got together and made it competitive. They discovered tech and the best strategies to win. Who's to say we can't just do the same thing with Smash 4? And with the community right now I can see this being the other half of Smash. Lots of people enjoy this game competitively and welcome another way to Smash. I'm one of them.

 

[DualX]

Intentions mean little in regards to how the game plays. Melee and Project M both have huge skill gaps in comparison to Brawl/Smash 4 hence why the latter is more casual. It's fine that you enjoy playing Smash 4, as well as I'm sure others definitely do, but the argument is that it simply will not last on a competition level because the skill gap just isn't there. Just like Brawl.

There are too many things that are hard coded into Smash 4 that will ever make it a highly technical game than it is now. No more edge-guarding, arial landing lag, infinite air dodges, and no combo potential are just a few of the things that hurt this game in that aspect.

 

[Atm0s]

Intentions mean little in regards to how the game plays. Melee and Project M both have huge skill gaps in comparison to Brawl/Smash 4 hence why the latter is more casual. It's fine that you enjoy playing Smash 4, as well as I'm sure others definitely do, but the argument is that it simply will not last on a competition level because the skill gap just isn't there. Just like Brawl.

There are too many things that are hard coded into Smash 4 that will ever make it a highly technical game than it is now. No more edge-guarding, arial landing lag, infinite air dodges, and no combo potential are just a few of the things that hurt this game in that aspect.

Even though I disagree with some of the points you brought up, I'll admit Smash 4 is less technical than Melee. The game emphasizes mind games and options at a given time. Some people may like that, others may not, but I hope the game doesn't fail competitively. I simply don't have as much fun playing Melee as Smash 4.

For me it's not really a matter of "this game has more of a skill gap and things to learn", its more of "this game is fun, and I like it because of its play style and variety". Maybe a mod with pop up and fill in the gap, but I sort of doubt it. Modding every new Smash would be a lot of work and they would all just be another Project M with better graphics. I just don't like the idea of not being able to play a Smash game I really enjoy competitively. And I love competitive Smash 4. I'll just have to wait and see.

 

[PatTheNelson]

I agree with Atm0s here. I don't play competitive Brawl, but I play Smash 4 and Melee. I love competitive Smash 4 and believe that it will always have a community, even if it ends up as a small, dedicated one.

 

[Nuttre]

Competitive gaming is more exciting when you see players doing maneuvers that takes awhile to master. When you take away that skill gap, make the game way slower, and add all of the odd nuances that Brawl and Smash 4 does, then you get what we have now. A dead community. .

You can't seriously say that that is the main, or only factor to why brawl is dead.
There are so many dead games where this is just not the case, older KoFs being ones that jump to mind.

I don't think that's the case and that's because of one thing. Do you know of any causal videogame that has stood the test of time tournament wise?

I do think that that is the case, or at least a contributing factor.
6ish years (length is debatable) passes a test of time in my book.
Team Fortress 2 (https://tf2center.com/) it was released 9th October 2007 (before brawl)
Melee was a casual game before we stuck our hands in.

There are too many things that are hard coded into Smash 4 that will ever make it a highly technical game than it is now. No more edge-guarding, arial landing lag, infinite air dodges, and no combo potential are just a few of the things that hurt this game in that aspect.

Can you evaluate?
I also dont see how a "more technical game" makes it any more competitive (even if "competitiveness" attrobutes to a game's lifespan)? What's to say that a simple game can't be played competitively for 10 years? Quake is a fundamentally simple game with movement tagged on (the movement isn't even that complex). It is still being played competitively 19 years later.

Street fighter 2 is a very simple game, and it still gets some love (evo hosting it)


I'm not sure you know what you are talking about when you try to argue that smash 4 will not survive because it isn't deep (skill gap) because it does have one. Even if it isn't as deep as melee, i'm sure it can stand the "test of time". (i'm not even sure what you mean by that. Everything will die one day.) As long as top players are beating low level players then the skill gap is large enough.

Lastly, I do think that some of what you say is true. Just expect resistance when you come onto the brawl boards and start talking about other smash games.

 

[DualX]

You can't seriously say that that is the main, or only factor to why brawl is dead.
There are so many dead games where this is just not the case, older KoFs being ones that jump to mind.

In a series that already had a huge competitive following? Yes, I can. Brawl was a huge let down hence the reason it was dropped. Did you see the Smash Documentary?

I do think that that is the case, or at least a contributing factor.
6ish years (length is debatable) passes a test of time in my book.
Team Fortress 2 (https://tf2center.com/) it was released 9th October 2007 (before brawl)
Melee was a casual game before we stuck our hands in.

People have big tournaments for this game? This is the first time I've ever heard of one. TF2 MLG anyone?

Can you evaluate?
I also dont see how a "more technical game" makes it any more competitive (even if "competitiveness" attrobutes to a game's lifespan)? What's to say that a simple game can't be played competitively for 10 years? Quake is a fundamentally simple game with movement tagged on (the movement isn't even that complex). It is still being played competitively 19 years later.

Street fighter 2 is a very simple game, and it still gets some love (evo hosting it)

You pretty much proved your own point. Quake and Street Fighter 2 are both very competitive, high skilled games. You could also say the same about Counter Strike, StarCraft, and even Halo.

I'm not sure you know what you are talking about when you try to argue that smash 4 will not survive because it isn't deep (skill gap) because it does have one. Even if it isn't as deep as melee, i'm sure it can stand the "test of time". (i'm not even sure what you mean by that. Everything will die one day.) As long as top players are beating low level players then the skill gap is large enough.

I'm not sure why you think that a game that was specifically made to be played more casually than the more technical game before it has a long lasting appeal. For example, Halo 4 was made to draw in a bigger crowd. The Call of Duty folks. And had some very casual implementations that had a negative affect on gameplay. Do people play Halo 4 competitively anymore? Nope. Casual games don't last long in the big tournament realm for a reason.

Lastly, I do think that some of what you say is true. Just expect resistance when you come onto the brawl boards and start talking about other smash games.

He had an honest question about Brawl and I gave him an honest (no nonsense) answer regarding Brawl.

 

[DualX]

Modding every new Smash would be a lot of work and they would all just be another Project M with better graphics.

So, a more technical Smash 4 would be just another Project M with a brand new set of custom moves which players would literately have their own characters? Definitely sounds like the exact same game...

Also, it shouldn't even have to be this way. Nintendo knows what kind of competitive community this series has and yet they fight against it for some reason. Instead of having to mod it, they should work with the competitive community to incorporate the things that make it fantastic in order to make the best possible Smash game yet. I'm honestly surprised they are completely shunning the team that is working on Project M instead of embracing it and opening Smash 4 up to allow for such gameplay even if the community has to do it again. It just shows how much people want that type of style if they spend over 5 years trying to replicate what made Melee great and to go even beyond that.

 

[Atm0s]

So, a more technical Smash 4 would be just another Project M with a brand new set of custom moves which players would literately have their own characters? Definitely sounds like the exact same game...

Also, it shouldn't even have to be this way. Nintendo knows what kind of competitive community this series has and yet they fight against it for some reason. Instead of having to mod it, they should work with the competitive community to incorporate the things that make it fantastic in order to make the best possible Smash game yet. I'm honestly surprised they are completely shunning the team that is working on Project M instead of embracing it and opening Smash 4 up to allow for such gameplay even if the community has to do it again. It just shows how much people want that type of style if they spend over 5 years trying to replicate what made Melee great and to go even beyond that.

If we were to mod Smash 4 that would take more effort than it's worth to simply add the feature of custom moves and some extra characters.

Also, how can Nintendo work with a community that doesn't play their most recent games? I mean, if the competitive community continued to play Smash 4, Nintendo would most likely notice that there is competitive interest in one of their series, and adjust future games to suit our needs better. We'll give them our criticisms, and they'll give us what we want, rather than just quitting the game all together and say its bad for whatever reason. That's just how I see it anyways.

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

You can always play this HD fan remake of Brawl with a ton of balance changes, tons of new inputs per second, and new characters introduced.
It was so amazing that Mashpotato Samurai himself broke into the modder's house and stole his hard drive and took credit for the game.
Its called Smash for Wii U and 3DS

:^)

 

[Nuttre]

In a series that already had a huge competitive following? Yes, I can. Brawl was a huge let down hence the reason it was dropped. Did you see the Smash Documentary?

It wasn't a big letdown to everyone (that's why brawl lasted 6 or so years)
Also, you say that the skill ceiling is removed, where it is there, just in another form. The skills from one game can transfer, but there are other skills that are more prevalent and some completely different. There are some skills that you, nor I have even thought about in the meta.
Also I did see the smash doc, I think it had a very melee-sided view, so I can't really say much about it.

People have big tournaments for this game? This is the first time I've ever heard of one. TF2 MLG anyone?

ESEA hosts TF2 (http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=15165)
Insomnia gaming LANs have hosted TF2 (http://comp.tf/wiki/Insomnia52 and https://insomniagamingfestival.com/i55/tournaments/event/team-fortress-2/)

You pretty much proved your own point. Quake and Street Fighter 2 are both very competitive, high skilled games. You could also say the same about Counter Strike, StarCraft, and even Halo.

Can you see how quake and street fighter can be slow and pretty simple, but also have a high skill ceiling, like the view I have on brawl?

I'm not sure why you think that a game that was specifically made to be played more casually than the more technical game before it has a long lasting appeal.

There are more people in this community than just melee players, and there are people who don't enjoy melee (shock horror). These people may prefer to play a different game. They may also like to play this game in a competitive setting, therefore forming a competitive community. Is that impossible? I would think that it is quite probable that this will happen.

 

[DualX]

If we were to mod Smash 4 that would take more effort than it's worth to simply add the feature of custom moves and some extra characters.

If you can't see how that would completely change the landscape, then I can't help you.

Also, how can Nintendo work with a community that doesn't play their most recent games? I mean, if the competitive community continued to play Smash 4, Nintendo would most likely notice that there is competitive interest in one of their series, and adjust future games to suit our needs better. We'll give them our criticisms, and they'll give us what we want, rather than just quitting the game all together and say its bad for whatever reason. That's just how I see it anyways.

Masahiro Sakurai, the creator of Smash Bros saw all of the things that were being done within Melee that weren't meant to be used in that manner, the way people were playing the game without items, performing quick combos and quick deaths, and he didn't like what he saw. This is why Brawl is the way it is. He specifically made the game to make sure none of those elements were present within the future of Smash. He knows this community exists yet chooses to do whatever he wants. And it's odd because the tournament events are sponsored BY Nintendo themselves, and Smash 4 has a mode dedicated to that type of playstyle within For Glory. Sakurai is like a cat. He'll listen to you, but ultimately does what he wants.

If, one day, they come out and say they will start making those adjustments, the community will listen. We're just playing other games until then.

 

[DualX]

Can you see how quake and street fighter can be slow and pretty simple, but also have a high skill ceiling, like the view I have on brawl?

Neither game is slow, especially in competitive play. Poor comparison.

There are more people in this community than just melee players, and there are people who don't enjoy melee (shock horror). These people may prefer to play a different game. They may also like to play this game in a competitive setting, therefore forming a competitive community. Is that impossible? I would think that it is quite probable that this will happen.

Yes, and I get that as I've said before. I mean, I love playing a huge variety of games which make up more than just the competitive ones. I love Mario Kart, but you don't see me pushing for a tournament version. I'm not saying you can't have tournaments based on the games you like either. Who am I to say so? My argument is that Smash 4 won't have the lasting power like Melee/PM does. For casual players. Brawl was dropped in favor of Smash 4, and the same thing will happen once the next one releases and unless the next Smash makes the needed changes for high skill level play, it won't affect Melee or PM. And once more for added emphasis...

Casual games don't last long in the big tournament realm for a reason.

 

[Nuttre]

Neither game is slow, especially in competitive play. Poor comparison.


Yes, and I get that as I've said before. I mean, I love playing a huge variety of games which make up more than just the competitive ones. I love Mario Kart, but you don't see me pushing for a tournament version. I'm not saying you can't have tournaments based on the games you like either. Who am I to say so? My argument is that Smash 4 won't have the lasting power like Melee/PM does. For casual players. Brawl was dropped in favor of Smash 4, and the same thing will happen once the next one releases and unless the next Smash makes the needed changes for high skill level play, it won't affect Melee or PM. And once more for added emphasis...

Fair enough, the game may get replaced next smash release.

(also both games have evidence of being medium paced, when compared to melee, both being capable of being slow and fast. I won't argue over the pacing of quake or street fighter.

I see that we have different viewpoints on the matter as I come from a region where the brawl players have stuck to brawl, just like in France. So I guess it's just a matter of who you are.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Brawl didnt die organically from its own competitive merit, and anyone who thinks otherwise must have been sleeping through all of 2013, lmao

 

[DualX]

What happened in 2013? And what happened in the time following that?

Are you sure it's us that's sleeping?

pidgezero_one
reformed bad poster

lol ok

 

[Zone]

I just want to say I'm really enjoying how mature the debate is going on in here.

 

[ThePuffDaddy]

The Smash Documentary honestly ruined Brawl's reputation and **** on the competitive brawl community and made people believe that brawl died because it "wasn't competitive"

 

[DualX]

But it really isn't though for reasons already stated above. If it truly was viable, then people that enjoyed Brawl would make that scene happen like those that made the Melee scene happened. Again, it isn't going to because casual players have already moved to Smash 4 because "it's the new thing" and not due to how technically viable the game is either.

 

[Angbad]

In a series that already had a huge competitive following? Yes, I can. Brawl was a huge let down hence the reason it was dropped. Did you see the Smash Documentary?


People have big tournaments for this game? This is the first time I've ever heard of one. TF2 MLG anyone?


You pretty much proved your own point. Quake and Street Fighter 2 are both very competitive, high skilled games. You could also say the same about Counter Strike, StarCraft, and even Halo.


I'm not sure why you think that a game that was specifically made to be played more casually than the more technical game before it has a long lasting appeal. For example, Halo 4 was made to draw in a bigger crowd. The Call of Duty folks. And had some very casual implementations that had a negative affect on gameplay. Do people play Halo 4 competitively anymore? Nope. Casual games don't last long in the big tournament realm for a reason.


He had an honest question about Brawl and I gave him an honest (no nonsense) answer regarding Brawl.

I'm on mobile so I couldn't see when you joined smash boards. From your posts I could tell you're pretty new around here because a lot of what you're saying is wrong or doesn't really make sense.

 

[Zone]

I'm on mobile so I couldn't see when you joined smash boards. From your posts I could tell you're pretty new around here because a lot of what you're saying is wrong or doesn't really make sense.

So instead of arguing points of his argument you are hoping to attack their join date. Not a good way for you to defend yourself if he's so obviously wrong.

 

[Angbad]

So instead of arguing points of his argument you are hoping to attack their join date. Not a good way for you to defend yourself if he's so obviously wrong.

Nah his arguments are the same as so many new school melee players. Not really worth replying to the same things for the 1000th time. Especially when he's talking about the lifespan of brawl which he wasn't even around for.

 

[DualX]

I'm on mobile so I couldn't see when you joined smash boards. From your posts I could tell you're pretty new around here because a lot of what you're saying is wrong or doesn't really make sense.

How am I wrong?

Nah his arguments are the same as so many new school melee players. Not really worth replying to the same things for the 1000th time. Especially when he's talking about the lifespan of brawl which he wasn't even around for.

Then why even bother posting?