WBR and Cohorts: What the **** are you doing?

[CT Chia]

Just my 2 cents:

WBR should be a place where people who have a decent amount of knowledge on game balancing should be voting on changes that everyone suggests. Some people have incredible amounts of character bias or just don't have a knack for seeing what an 'overpowered change' is, or what makes a character really bad. These people make poor candidates for the WBR.

That being said, all people should have some kind of a voice. Im not saying everything everyone suggests needs to be implemented, but if enough logic is presented behind an argument that is brought up, why not discuss it in the back room and vote on it?

Overall:

Get people out of the WBR that have too much bias, troll people too much, shoot others ideas down, don't have a gift for balancing games, or just overall don't have the team mentality to get **** done.

I now vote for obm to be in the wbr lol

 

[[TSON]]

TSON - At what point did B+ become a democracy? It never has, it never will, and the public needs to just buck up or shut up. I'm not in the back room, and I have opinions turned away and others welcomed.

Remember, you're part of the public, hun.

Let's go and ignore all of your ideas now, huh?
You don't know the feeling because you're using to the way that smashboards feels. That whole reeking of "I'm smarter than you, your opinion is invalid," believe it or not, for the longest time, the workshop wasn't like that. Then all of a sudden it went downhill. How about you back up and shut up and let's all recall how amazing that time was, because with the egos we have flying around here it may very well never come back.

 

[Dantarion]

Because, as I've said before,

Not everyone is going to be happy with B+ Gold. No matter what, no matter how good Gold is, no matter how big B+ is, there will be SOMEONE out there to baw about it, srs or not. That continuous bawwwwing is what got us RC1 Ness.

No. I never said "We need to listen to wjat everyone wants and put it in", I said "Good input from non-WBR members should be ok". Chibo seems to think that having people outside of the WBR submitting many ideas that get into Brawl+ is a problem and those people should be made WBR members.

Second, I dislike how open the WBR is. There are so many ppl not in the WBR helping a lot with the project, so these ppl need to be admitted to the WBR.

This quote seems to make it seem like having smart people helping that ARENT in the WBR is like a problem!

 

[Bandit]

It's my understanding GSH2 was released to find any bugs and any last minute fixes before it is "gold" or whatever you people are calling final public releases.

TSON - I just play smashfests and talk to WBR members privately. That's how my voice gets heard. Not through flaming threads.

 

[yami_sora]

Alright, I think we're all just about done flaming the WBR now. There's no need to keep bring that up. What's in the past is in the past. We're all human and none of us are perfect. Let's all learn from our past mistakes, and from here, pick up the pieces and move on.

Dant, I think you are an extremely valuable member to this community, and you always find ways to break new barriers that we didn't think were possible. It's because of the many hard working people like you that we have the Brawl+ we have today.

That said, I don't think you necessarily have to be in the WBR to contribute to this project. As I said, Bio and I discussed Sonic at great length both in and out of the Sonic thread, and along with all the other Sonic mains who posted in that thread, and with Cape's help, the Sonic that is in GSH2 is a collaboration. Of all the people who contributed, only a handful were in the WBR. So even though I'm not in the WBR, my voice was heard and in the end, we all made a difference for that character.

Perhaps I was lucky though to find a guy like Bio who was willing to listen to me even though I'm virtually unheard of on SWF. I don't think we necessarily need tons and tons of people in the WBR, but we do need people who are willing to listen to the people posting in the character threads and in the workshop if they are making reasonable suggestions. It would be even better if demo .pacs could be made to test out suggestions before throwing them into a nightly, again, like what was done with Sonic. I understand that would take a lot of effort to do and probably isn't very feasible, but it would certainly be nice.

Also Dant about your hub, why not make it public? As was said, there's no reason to hunt through threads to see how the argument played out as opposed to being able to actively contribute to it in a positive way. You could even set up some sort of voting process so people can at least voice their opinions about a proposed change.

Of course, it would still have to be regulated to some extent to prevent trolling and what not. Like for example, people could link their SWF account to the hub and only allow for one vote. That's just one idea anyways. And of course, just because popular opinion voted for a certain change doesn't mean that you have to follow it 100% of the time if it's going to have a negative impact on the game, but at least this way people would have their voices heard, as long as the WBR did actually listen.

With regards to the WBR, I don't think you should have to be a tourney player to be a part of it. If you're a positively contributing member to this game and this community, you should have a right to be involved in a bigger way. Notice though that I said a bigger way, not the only way. If the WBR were to be reformed, I think there should be some ground rules that have to be followed and that we should all have to respect each other, WBR or not.

EDIT: I would definitely second a nomination of Omegablackmage to be a WBR member.

 

[Bandit]

Yami...

B+ has a goal to be a highly competitive TOURNAMENT game.

This is why TOURNAMENT players should have the final say. Casual players have a voice, but it should be taken under advisement by a tournament player.

 

[leafbarrett]

TSON - At what point did B+ become a democracy? It never has, it never will, and the public needs to just buck up or shut up. I'm not in the back room, and I have opinions turned away and others welcomed.

I was under the impression that Brawl+ was made to improve Brawl's gameplay for everyone (as a general term), not just a select few.

B+ has a goal to be a highly competitive TOURNAMENT game.

This is why TOURNAMENT players should have the final say. Casual players have a voice, but it should be taken under advisement by a tournament player.

...Wait, what's the difference between a tournament player's opinion and a casual gamer's opinion? >.>

 

[SymphonicSage12]

By "taken under advisement by a tournament player", you mean completely ignored and isn't considered at all, meaning that the tournament player will have the final say anyways, which might be what the public doesn't want?


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

~~SS12~~

 

[Bandit]

I was under the impression that Brawl+ was made to improve Brawl's gameplay for everyone (as a general term), not just a select few.
...Wait, what's the difference between a tournament player's opinion and a casual gamer's opinion? >.>

A casual player does not play the same level of competition as a tournament player thus tactics used by a casual player (and wifi player) may or may not work at the level of play.

SS is just a 13 year old troll who flames noobs... I've seen it. Which is why I had you blocked forever.

 

[yami_sora]

Yami...

B+ has a goal to be a highly competitive TOURNAMENT game.

This is why TOURNAMENT players should have the final say. Casual players have a voice, but it should be taken under advisement by a tournament player.

I do agree with you to some extent. But wouldn't you say that just by playing Brawl+ in most cases that person is at least serious about the game? If the game were more popular and there were more tournaments, there would be more of us up there in the "tournament player" category. Right now, casual players generally do not have a voice, and that is the problem. If someone makes an excellent point and have the right evidence to back it up, it shouldn't matter if they've been to any tournaments.

 

[leafbarrett]

A casual player does not play the same level of competition as a tournament player thus tactics used by a casual player (and wifi player) may or may not work at the level of play.

SS is just a 13 year old troll who flames noobs... I've seen it. Which is why I had you blocked forever.

Take the advice and try it before passing judgement on it. You never know, some of the casual players may actually have some good ideas.

And troll or not, SS really does kinda have a point. Don't even try to tell me that tourney players (in general) don't look down on casual players, causing a tendency to dismiss everything a casual player suggests as stupid or noobish. All suggestions should be weighted equally and tried out before being accepted or dismissed.
...Basically what SS just added in red.

 

[Bandit]

Casual players:

The reason your voice gets shut out is because of a few reasons:

1) If someone debates your idea, you complain wildly about it not being used
2) Casual players jump on board with one another with what they believe is a good idea (which is fine) but if people are telling you it won't work (like the NADT substitute suggestions) then you must accept it.
3) After an idea is shot down, going on rants about how no one listens to you doesn't help.
4) Flaming others kills your rep with experienced players

Trying to suggest global changes to a game should be left to people who are more knowledgeable about the reactionary changes that will occur. The big thing before was adding startup frames to air dodge, but they never took into account how much this affects every other portion of the game besides trying to AD out of strings. Most of the casual players were demanding it despite the more experienced players telling them it would hurt much more facets of the game (and cause a large sweep of balancing to every move in the game to account for it).

 

[[TSON]]

TSON - I just play smashfests and talk to WBR members privately. That's how my voice gets heard. Not through flaming threads.

I know many of the WBR members as people, not as WBR members, and I like them better that way. This is not a flaming thread, this is a "what is going on plz help omg" thread.

The project is not meant to be enjoyable, leaf, it's meant to be more competitive. Casual's opinions are usually shaken off as irrelevant because the majority of them are "lower hitstun" "add wavedashing" :/

 

[Dantarion]

yami_sora, I love you.

You just summed up my feelings entirely.
The WBR shouldn't exist to gobble up all the people who have valid arguments in order for them to privately discuss and make changes. Sure, some people should be recruited to join the WBR, but I see the WBR as more of a entity that helps organize ideas, and makes the final call on changes getting into Brawl+.

I feel like too much of Brawl+ is getting lucky talking to the right people in the WBR who listen, getting lucky and having your idea actually discussed in the main forum thread, etc.

I remember ages ago, before I really did stuff in the Workshop, I posted a idea I had in one of the Brawl+ threads. Not one person responded to it, and my idea was lost forever. I don't even remember what it was, but I wasn't really excited about posting other ideas after that.

I want the pub to be public. I understand that some level of moderation will need to be present, but I think that opening up the WBR is what will be better for Brawl+.

EDIT:
**** the "Brawl+ Tournament Player" mentality. There are no + tournaments here in Socal. NONE.

 

[yami_sora]

How can you honestly say that this isn't mean to be enjoyable? What's the point of even playing the game if it isn't fun?

Also Bandit, I'm not sure who you are referring to in this thread when you say casual players, but for every "casual" post that ends up like what you described (and I have no problems admitting that you are absolutely right) there are also posts from experienced players just saying "well I'm right and you're wrong and we're doing things my way no matter what" and do not provide sufficient explanation and just throw their weight around.

What I suggest is that we attempt to decrease the bad blood between casual players and tournament players for a game that is being made by the community and for the community. Yes, there are completely terrible and awful suggestions made by people who have no idea what they are talking about, but not every post by an experienced player is golden either.

 

[leafbarrett]

The project is not meant to be enjoyable, Leaf, it's meant to be more competitive. Casual's opinions are usually shaken off as irrelevant because the majority of them are "lower hitstun" "add wavedashing" :/

Well, if it's an idea that's been proven to not work already, then yeah, it can be ignored then.
And last time I checked, regardless of whether it's competition or not, games are supposed to be fun; that's why they're called games.

Casual players:

The reason your voice gets shut out is because of a few reasons:

1) If someone debates your idea, you complain wildly about it not being used
2) Casual players jump on board with one another with what they believe is a good idea (which is fine) but if people are telling you it won't work (like the NADT substitute suggestions) then you must accept it.
3) After an idea is shot down, going on rants about how no one listens to you doesn't help.
4) Flaming others kills your rep with experienced players.

I believe you're confusing casual players with stubborn idiots or trolls. And as Yami just said, not every post by an experienced player is full of knowledge and wisdom; some of them are just as stubborn as what you put into the casual player category.

 

[Bandit]

Dant, not my fault you have no tourneys. Perhaps, you should actually TO your own tourneys.

I am an experienced player, and my opinion has been shot down just like casuals before. You casuals take it so seriously when someone shoots you down, and if you are making SERIOUS POSTS and getting shot down like that, you are not talking to the right BR member.

TSON - I was not talking about this thread as flaming though it def is a flaming thread.

The feedback threads are SPAM MAGNETS. Do not post serious ideas there if you want real feedback.

PM your ideas to a BR member or to Cape. Cape has shown he answers any SERIOUS posts.

Also, take your idea to the character boards and discuss it with them. It's far easier to get something implemented if the mains are on board with you.

 

[yami_sora]

Bandit you have a really crummy attitude towards "casual players". Who are you calling out in this thread? This is the problem I'm talking about. There's no reason to look down on someone so harshly just because they don't have as much experience as you do if they manage to make a valid point.

 

[The Cape]

PM your ideas to a BR member or to Cape. Cape has shown he answers any SERIOUS posts.

Also, take your idea to the character boards and discuss it with them. It's far easier to get something implemented if the mains are on board with you.

The ones I can keep up with that is V.V

Please dont fill my PM box with ideas, I try to have a life.

Talking to your character boards and having video evidence (prefered) is a great way to get my attention to your changes. Coding it for me and explaining why it was done is even better.

 

[leafbarrett]

Bandit you have a really crummy attitude towards "casual players". Who are you calling out in this thread? This is the problem I'm talking about. There's no reason to look down on someone so harshly just because they don't have as much experience as you do if they manage to make a valid point.

My thoughts exactly. Bandit, take a step back and look at your posts. You treat less experienced players as if they're flat-out inferior.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Guy, the smashfest you couldn't get a ride to was playing GSH2 before it was released along with at least a half dozen other competitive smash fests that night/weekend from across the country and in the biggest B+ regions.

TSON - At what point did B+ become a democracy? It never has, it never will, and the public needs to just buck up or shut up. I'm not in the back room, and I have opinions turned away and others welcomed.

I said BEFORE/BESIDES GSH1/GSH2.

**** dude, this isn't a chatroom, it's easy to scroll up.

Besides that,

Casual players, as it's been said, their opinions simply won't matter AS MUCH AS a competitive player's, or, someone who visits tournies often. This is probably obvious, but of course it needs to be known.

 

[Dantarion]

Dant, not my fault you have no tourneys. Perhaps, you should actually TO your own tourneys.

Not possible. No one here is bored enough to play Brawl+ when we run vBrawl, Melee, 64, and perhaps TvC/SF4/BB/GG before people even think of running Brawl+.

I am an experienced player, and my opinion has been shot down just like casuals before. You casuals take it so seriously when someone shoots you down, and if you are making SERIOUS POSTS and getting shot down like that, you are not talking to the right BR member.

The feedback threads are SPAM MAGNETS. Do not post serious ideas there if you want real feedback.

PM your ideas to a BR member or to Cape.

This is a problem. If the only way to get heard is to PM certain members and get certain people on your side, we have this weird system where changes dont go through even slightly the same method to get in.

I.e. I have idea A, I post it in the thread, nothing happens.
Someone else has idea A, sends it to WBR member X, change somehow makes it in Brawl+

This is THE PROBLEM.

 

[Bandit]

Bandit you have a really crummy attitude towards "casual players". Who are you calling out in this thread? This is the problem I'm talking about. There's no reason to look down on someone so harshly just because they don't have as much experience as you do if they manage to make a valid point.

My thoughts exactly. Bandit, take a step back and look at your posts. You treat less experienced players as if they're flat-out inferior.

See, I was actually giving you sound advice and you took it as a personal attack. This is why casuals are treated like inferiors.

I have a ton of casual friends on smashboards who do a ton for their characters in vBrawl, but I haven't found many in B+ who don't spam the feedback thread, demanding answers, and flaming the BR for not listening to them.

Look at your own posts and tell me you didn't just flame me. Then look at what Cape said in response to me.

 

[Isatis]

The feedback threads are SPAM MAGNETS. Do not post serious ideas there if you want real feedback.

Wait, then why the heck am I not closing those threads? What use do we have for those threads? Oh right, to get the public's opinion! If they're spam magnets, why shouldn't I lock them? We've got so much input from the GSH1 thread (even if it did devolve) that helped to make GSH2 a little, with Plum's idea taken well into consideration as well.

I mean, I know some stuff was ignored, but that thread truely exists for one reason: to get the public's feedback.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I have a few things worth mentioning.

First, Dantarion, all things code-related you do are appreciated by many more people than the Brawl+ people. Don't think increasing the general code-based knowledge of Brawl hacking is a waste even if you grow dissatisfied with Brawl+. I am always on the lookout for any codes developed either by you and the other coders that could be useful for Balanced Brawl, and I in particular from your work really look forward to seeing more in-public development of our ability to manipulate fighter.pac (I see discussion about developments but nothing publicly posted so I can only take it as a work in progress, a very exciting work in progress that I definitely look forward to utilizing as a finished product). On the other hand, things like your subspace stage thing seem to bring whole different groups of people a lot of happiness, some of which have no interest at all in an organized project. What you do codewise is valuable in ways that have nothing at all to do with Brawl+; this is the most important point I can put across and hope you personally take seriously.

Secondly, back to the group, a changelist-less version of Brawl+ is really not okay. I don't really follow Brawl+ releases closely these days since odds are slim I'll be able to mine useful code stuff from them like it was back in the day (with code authors practically releasing stuff as a part of Brawl+ releases) so I didn't know about it until this thread. I suppose I should air this particular point out in the public. Months ago when Balanced Brawl first launched, we had some issues with the Brawl+ people over largely petty issues (formatting for code names/credit). It was fairly messy for a lot of reasons with us having some pretty serious complaints the other way, but we were able to calm things down with a reasonable compromise. The leadership of the Brawl+ project agreed to openness for all future releases as a part of it. This means no releasing .gct files without accompanying .txt files, and on an ethical level releasing change lists for .pacs seems to be obviously included in this. For that matter, on an ethical level, everything we do here should be open anyway; there is zero benefit to the community to obscure code resources or anything of the sort. So I'm saying, both in terms of ethics and in terms of honoring an agreement, this situation with a no changelist release needs to be fixed and soon.

I'm also going to say that the most important thing for a game project in terms of making a good game is definitely a clear, unified vision of exactly what the game is supposed to be with "better" not counting. With our project, Thinkaman and I laid out a very clear philosophy of exactly what we wanted to accomplish, we followed principles of openness and put everything in the public so anyone who wanted to compete with us for what we were doing would have no disadvantage (since the best game, not "our" game, is our priority), and we take actions that have the simple focus of adhering to the original philosophy as closely as possible (the philosophy is abstract in principle so we can ultimately only approach it, not realize it fully). We are also filled with a respect for Brawl itself that I think helps us more than anything. I'm not sure what exactly the Brawl+ project looks at in terms of this stuff, but I always get a sense everyone who works on it has differing motivations and generally doesn't respect the source material. If nothing else, this is sure to generate conflict... which seems to be what this thread is about.

 

[dessert fox5]

If the only way to get heard is to PM certain members and get certain people on your side, we have this weird system where changes dont go through even slightly the same method to get in.

You mean lobbying? If so, America is screwed as is.

edit: and some of us noob/casuals are always willingly behind you guys, and never spam.

 

[leafbarrett]

See, I was actually giving you sound advice and you took it as a personal attack. This is why casuals are treated like inferiors.

I have a ton of casual friends on smashboards who do a ton for their characters in vBrawl, but I haven't found many in B+ who don't spam the feedback thread, demanding answers, and flaming the BR for not listening to them.

Look at your own posts and tell me you didn't just flame me. Then look at what Cape said in response to me.

...What sound advice was in that post listing why casual players are ignored? And no, I did not flame you. I called you out on a behavior. I never intended for my post to be considered as an insult to you.

 

[Bandit]

Wait, then why the heck am I not closing those threads? What use do we have for those threads? Oh right, to get the public's opinion! If they're spam magnets, why shouldn't I lock them? We've got so much input from the GSH1 thread (even if it did devolve) that helped to make GSH2 a little, with Plum's idea taken well into consideration as well.

I mean, I know some stuff was ignored, but that thread truely exists for one reason: to get the public's feedback.

The feedback thread should be Q&A + Bug Reporting. If it goes into all out discussion of things, it devolves into a flame war.

All the character specific stuff should've been taken to the character boards. It should not be in the feedback thread unless it is a bug. If you don't like a change, ask why it was made. If you just say "MK's nair sucks now!!" no one will or should take you seriously. This is what a lot of the comments become in those feedback threads.

Leaf:

Casual players want their opinion heard, and I am telling you why it is being ignored. You should be able to do the math.

 

[Swordplay]

wow is this some sort of confession thread? a thread where we can all gain understanding?

i think through all of these we already know where we are. we know the wbr shut out the public to some extent because they got sick of listening to people who had no idea what they were talking about. we know it was challenging to gain decent feedback from the public (for some reason i don't understand but I don't care to understand. why is not the problem only facts are) we know the wbr burnt itself out from commitment and school and finals were breathing down their necks.

look we know all of this. i don't see any reason to rehash it this much. what i wanted to see was change. why couldn't we implement these feedback systems. i suggested a format for one in the gsh1 thread like 3-4 weeks ago when the public first started to notice the organizational problems, and was completely ignored. i guess discussing and confessing our problems is more important than discussing how to solve them. You all need to go read a management book.

sarcasm time i recommend this one written by the management professors and the kelly school of business and Indiana university.
(wouldn't be surprised if i got an infaction)

 

[[TSON]]

Stop raging guys. Please.

 

[yami_sora]

I'm not flaming you Bandit. I'm trying to point out that there needs to be less discrimination in this community. Yes, casuals have made a ton of bad suggestions, but not all of them are.

 

[shanus]

Alright, I'm going to speak for Yeroc in a quick and concise manner, but I'm hoping I capture his goals correctly.

The WBR as it is currently, is largely flawed. We all know its a mess, and want to best fix it to
1. optimize efficiency of changes of b+ with knowledgeable tourney players
AND
2. open up the WBR to beyond just B+ for people making significant contributions

The goal would be as follows:

Complete restructuring of the WBR system. Most players will be removed / re-assigned into "buckets" so to say. These buckets would consist of balancers who would be required to have significant tournament experience, and coders, who would have strength in PSA or ASM.

The ideal system would work as follows which has been something dantarion has been working on. A group of players can create changelist "tickets" on a wiki based system which can be discussed and decided upon. It is not yet decided if this system would be open or closed to the community, but I feel a weekly publication of the discussed changes would definitely be within reason. From there, these "coding tickets" get handed off to the coders who generate them into substantiated change for the balancers within a reasonable time frame. These tickets would be ranked by the balancers to make sure the most demanding changes get examined first. I've also toyed with the idea of having the WBR coders also be able to take community requests at being able to submit tickets for personal testing. For example, the WBR might have 30 tickets submitted which will have priority. An active community player such as say Thunderhorse, might want to see how Falco's shine works with a precise JC shine frame. He can submit a community ticket where we can supply him with a test pac if we can meet a timeframe so that he can provide constructive criticism backed by data. These community tickets would hopefully follow a "digg.com" type of algorithm to represent the most publicly deemed important changes which can provide valuable insight to the balancer groups as well.

This system would work to solve the following problems:
Every change is documented.
Every change is vetted by tournament experienced players.
All changes would be made clear in intention to the community.

Furthermore, we are hoping to aim to open the WBR to non-Brawl+ groups. Contributions by AA or Thinkaman for BBrawl, or Kryal for the epicness that is Brawlbox should all be recognized and should have full access to hopefully make better use of a private room.


So I'm hoping this new "goal" for the WBR would be feasible. Cape has supplied many of the names of his contacts regarding balancing GSH2, and I know I would love to see such an ironed out system come into play so that we can finalize refining of GSH2 and bring a final Brawl+ release to the public, drama free.

Hope people like the idea.


Also, hopefully applications will online soon, waiting on Yeroc. I would hope to see this new WBR rehouse players who I have frankly worked with for a long time including Cape, JCz, Bionic, and more.

 

[The Cape]

The biggest issue with Brawl+ (other than the current state of the WBR) is the lack of an accurate and consise mission statement as to the goals of the project.

Thats something else that needs to be considered Shanus. Since the goals that were "laid out" were constantly ignored for "fun changes" that had nothing to do with balance, making approaching worthwhile while not killing defense, or creating a more rich experience while playing by opening up the characters viability and options more (which were my personal goals for GSH2).

Balanced Brawl had a solid mission statement and it worked out well for them. We got side tracked WAY too often.

 

[shanus]

The biggest issue with Brawl+ (other than the current state of the WBR) is the lack of an accurate and consise mission statement as to the goals of the project.

Thats something else that needs to be considered Shanus. Since the goals that were "laid out" were constantly ignored for "fun changes" that had nothing to do with balance, making approaching worthwhile while not killing defense, or creating a more rich experience while playing by opening up the characters viability and options more (which were my personal goals for GSH2).

That too is an important point. I would like to see something like this clearly defined upon creation of a new solid core-WBR userbase.

 

[goodoldganon]

I really, really really don't see why this thread is even open or around. We are going to restructure the WBR. Some people will be kicked, others will probably leave by choice. For example I'll wait and see who is let into the WBR but it should come as no surprise I don't do **** for character balance now a days. I never learned PSA. The only thing I was ever did was test .pacs but after Cape started his set there was nothing to test. Now I plan to work closely with the WBR on prettying the actual Brawl+ image. I have big plans for the website and I hope to get community help after this whole STUPID **** storm sorts it self out. I'll give you the cliff notes version of how this went down (at least how I see it)

(Don't freak at me Cape, I have a world of respect for you even if you are acting a little like a prick recently. But it's getting **** done and that is what matters)

-RC1 is near release. Cape and many others claim about some stupid **** in RC1 that we want fixed before hand. Due to public pressure, length between releases, and a few other things RC1 goes ahead and is released in the frankly unpolished form.

-We stick to our guns and say this set will stay for a while despite the fact there are things we want to change. It is debated through out the WBR if we can change RC1 but no conclusion is ever released so it stays at is.

-After BtL2 Shanus outlines the next plan with what we want accomplished, how we will do it, who will be programming out, and when meetings will be held. As we are trying to gather programmers and testers for each character Cape shows his set to the WBR. It is met with mixed opinions but we agree to a Nightly.

-In my honest opinion Cape released GSH1 a little earlier then I would have liked, but problems were fixed fast albeit without changelists sadly.

-Cape freaks out and leaves the WBR as he prepares GSH2 gathering help from many of the players the WBR wanted to recruit in the first place things progress, a few people leave, and now the public is on this popular hate train. All aboard!

And that is where we are now. It's a new change process but frankly one can't argue the quality. Brawl+ is basically a new game so the constant changelist whining is really kind of boring. I love messing with the new characters not knowing what to expect and figuring out what **** works now and what doesn't. Changing up my strategies as the matches go on.

Frankly I think Cape jumped the gun a little bit and this whole mess has caused a lot of unnecessary drama and anger but who really cares? It's water under the bridge. RC1 was a failure. Letting people troll important topics was a failure. Waiting around for so long to get **** done wasn't working when we started gathering more and more on our plate. We should have acted sooner and for that I can probably say the WBR is sorry. We are sorry we let the community down and hopefully we can fix this mess.

I'd really like if this topic was closed. We are planning a restructuring of the WBR. I doubt it will take place before Christmas or maybe even New Year's but it will happen. Go play GHS2 and have fun cause it's **** good. Post in your character discussion topics and the feedback topic in constructive manners and start to learn the new game. The WBR isn't getting paid for this **** so don't expect an overnight fix. We aren't Blizzard, a multi-billion dollar game developing company with YEARS of quality experience. We are a group of dudes, many of use without programming or balancing experience, that got in over our heads.

Rest assured work is being done. I see no reason to keep this open


EDIT: Seems I was late to post. I'll leave this up unless Shanus wants me to remove it. If so PM me.


EDIT 2:

The biggest issue with Brawl+ (other than the current state of the WBR) is the lack of an accurate and consise mission statement as to the goals of the project.

I asked like 20 times for this

 

[B3Brawler]

I have to say that i disagree with the concept of the WBR in general. Firstly because its comprised mainly (not entirely of course) of annoying people with poor social skills who feel a false sense of empowerment by being allowed an insignificant rank in an ultimately insignificant setting. I wouldn't treat a backroomer differently at a tournament or any real life situation just like i wouldn't treat them differently online. And just because you are skilled enough to contribute to the community doesn't mean that you have any idea how to communicate effectively with people of debate ideas. It seems to me as if you dont get in the backroom because you have good ideas or are an effective communicator, which are the kind of people you want in any governing body. Also, why the hell is it called the backroom? I know it's parodying the actual backroom but still. The backroom does not sound like any kind of governing body to me it sounds like a shifty place one goes for drug deals and drunken sex. Hope none of you take this personally if you actually are a good thinker/speaker.

also....

MERRY CHRISTMAS

 

[Dantarion]

You mean lobbying?

Thats exactly the word I was looking for. For example, someone posted earlier that its currently a better idea in his opinion to send ideas in a PM to Cape instead of posting them on the forums. Does that mean that EVERYONE who posts in that thread should start sending things to cape, making other WBR members have no idea what the public is thinking? No.

The biggest issue with Brawl+ (other than the current state of the WBR) is the lack of an accurate and consise mission statement as to the goals of the project.

This. We need a mission statement for Brawl+, and a mission statement for the WBR's role in Brawl+.

 

[Isatis]

<snip>

Not only do I like this idea, I've just been waiting for an exact plan for a long time, and was sort of upset when there wasn't really a clear timetable. I feel like I'm not the person to get involved in this again, and looking forward to join back in the WBR when everything is settled.

I'm also thinking of closing this topic, not only has it deviated from the original purpose (making the WBR aware of its problems and hoping there'd be a fix, and I'm guilty for throwing it slightly off-topic with my rant) but I think it has run its course.

 

[Bakuryu]

As far as I know our mission statement was to make the game easy to pick up, but hard to master.

It's a tough balance to make a casual friendly competitive game as those with skill will always do better and casuals will always complain its not fair or just lose interest, its probably the main reason Nintendo dropped the competitive side of smash for Brawl.

 

[B3Brawler]

oh woops goodoldganon posted while i was writing. That was refreshingly honest and cleared alot of things up =)