WBR Report: The Basics by S.O.L.I.D.

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Ok so as many of you may know, there is a Wolf Back Room for good Wolf players and contributors. In there we only discuss important Wolf tactics so we aren't plagued by lower level discussion here (no offense to any of you). So far, we've discussed 3 main points, and we are currently discussing a few more, but those will be posted later once we're finished.

So it was Gheb_01's idea a few weeks ago to post our discussions in reports like this, and we'll have a different theme for each one (this one is the basics). These will be posted by different WBR members every time, and these are meant to be helpful threads for Wolf's meta game.

So here we go:

Topic #1: Wolf's best secondaries:

I personally think Marth is a good secondary for Wolf because of his good matchups vs. most of the cast, and him not having a terrible matchup vs. Meta Knight. But here are other people's takes on it:

Gheb: GaW goes about even with MK, owns Falco owns D3 = best choice for a 2nd
MK = always the right choice
Falco owns DDD and goes even with MK and Falco. Reliable back-up...unless you fight GaW
Kirby = even with MK and Falco. No clue about Kirby vs DDD but I know, that Kirby sux vs Marth...

The only weakness Gaw leaves is Marth but neither Wolf nor GnW have big problems against him.
MK leaves you vulnerable to....?!??????
Falco leaves you vulnerable to GnW, who is tougher for Falco and Wolf than Marth
Kirby leaves you vulnerable to Marth, unless you can reliably defeat Marth with Wolf

So in order: GaW = MK > Falco >>> Kirby

Pikachu isn't so good, aside from his ability to counter DDD. He sucks vs. MK, GaW and Marth and isn't good vs Falco either. The only things Pika is great for is to own Snake but Wolf has no disadvantage vs. Snake.

Tl;dr take MK or GaW as 2nd

Snad:

I defend Pikachu as a very good alt to wolf. He is a very hard counter to DDD, wolfs worst match up, and Pikachu goes even with Falco,*besides isn't it only justice to be able to cg the Falco and DDD's* and he counters Kirby*I think it’s a bad match for wolf* Sure Pikachu is weak to MK, but who isn't really. Pikachu does better against MK than wolf mo, since Pikachu can fight MK off stage and can't be gimped easily.



Topic #2: Wall of Wolf: To Use Or Not To Use?

My take on WoW is that it is a pretty bad tactic to use because you should not really double jump often with Wolf, because you expose his one main aerial weakness: below him. But some of the other members word it better than me:


Gheb:

There's a difference between the Wall of Wolf and spamming Bair intelligently.

Germ has used the Wall of Wolf in the past, but it's really a dated strategy.

Arc pretty much nailed, what I said before: Wall of Wolf = predictable. It’s a Wall but has holes in it - a smart player will always break through it. Bair -> Ftilt works way better...


ArcPoint:

Effective? o.O Going by GERM's most recent matches at Axis, against mikehAZE he mixed it up quite well, played very intelligently there. And against Fly Amanita was where he used the "wall" tactic, which, against the Ice Climbers you almost need, you CANNOT get grabbed, and so using Wolf's poking move you tend not to get grabbed. Though, every time he used an Fsmash after a Bair, he got grabbed for it, but luckily Fly messed up most of the times he got grabbed.


Topic #3: Wolf's Grab Game

Dthrow:

OK I think Ishieymoro explained the Dthrow techchase that Wolf has the most simply when he said "Dthrow tech chase is when you Dthrow, then run up to them and shield-grab if you predict an attack/spot dodge or dash-grab if you predict a shield."

Going more in depth to this tactic is

ArcPoint:

As for Dthrow techchase, it's really simple, at certain percents you can Dthrow an opponent and they have about...7 options? Tech left, tech right, tech straight up, get up, get up attack, get up right, get up left. With Fsmash you eliminate about 5 of them (Tech towards you[which puts them behind you], get up, get up attack, get up towards you, tech straight up) And with DCU you can eliminate the other two, Tech away from you, and get up roll away from you. Blaster works too ^_^

If they're below the percent to where they fall on the ground, then (if they don't tech it) you just run up to them, shield, and see what they do... I think they have a lot more options in this situation. If they spot dodge, Charge a Usmash out of shield, if they shield, grab them, if they don't shield, do whatever, if they attack, keep holding shield, if they grab, spot dodge, Roll away from you, DCU, if they roll behind you, Fsmash. If they jump... then I don’t know, set something up, get back stage position. So about 8 options in all, oh, and three more options if you include teching ^_^.

If they're at a high enough percent as to where they go a fair distance, you'll be in two situations: either you have your back against the ledge, and you can use the throw to get back valuable stage position and apply pressure/prevent yourself from being pressured. If you're at center stage and beyond while they have their back to the ledge, then you can push them off the ledge and set up for ledge pressure =D Overally a really great throw =)


Snad:
I never really use any throws other than Dthrow, if they can't tech it after 2-3 you should be able to catch them post throw with something. I prefer to chase after for re-grab, trick is not to do a dash grab, run shield and if they spot dodge wait then grab, or shield grab, most people either just shield or sidestep if they don't land, if they land u dash at them and shield right above, if they attack or stand right up u grab, if the roll you Fsmash.


Bthrow:

Lucien:

Bthrow is good against big characters or fast falling characters at low percents. Especially snake. people almost always DI towards you from the Bthrow so it acts like a better Uthrow. A lot of people also air-dodge early from it, so you can buffer it with an usmash. Of course you should pick up air-dodging habits before doing it, if they double jump from it hit them with a full hop Bair, off the stage without a double jump.


So there you go, that concludes the WBR's first report, stay tuned for more!

Feel free to discuss!

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Uh kool a wolfs back room. Well these are my opinions and whatnot.

I think Zero suit samus could make a decent second but thats just because im biased. Some people say she goes even with MK but some say MK has a slight advantage.

MK is clearly the best because hes metaknight but then youll end up catching the meta plague and main him instead. Other than that the best secondary for wolf is most likely Game and watch imo.

Wall of wolf is good but not the best defensive tactic thing. Its good to mix it up tho to stay unpredictible so I wouldnt profile it as completely useless.

As for grabs I usually just use the down throw out of sheer habit. Against some characters with bad aerial games U-throw can work vs people like bowser.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The Dthrow needs more love, guys! Grab whenever you get the chance to. 4 Jabs + Dthrow are 15% dmg, unpunishable and 100% free, can be followed up with blasters, techchase stuff...

Wolf Wall is hard to use correctly...there are many characters, who can attack quickly from below...GnW, Marth, ...

but it's a useful tactic if used intelligently

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Wolf Wall is hard to use correctly...there are many characters, who can attack quickly from below...GnW, Marth, ...

but it's a useful tactic if used intelligently

Yea it can be decent but its not smart to do against some characters that can pwn u in the air.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

OP edited for sexyness.

 

[castorpollux]

My take on WoW is that it is a pretty bad tactic to use because you should not really double jump often with Wolf, because you expose his one main aerial weakness: below him. But some of the other members word it better than me

I agree that you should not waste your double jump, and therefore the WoW in koskinator's guide is garbage; however, I do not believe the WoW is a bad tactic at all. Rather, it is predictability that is bad, but there are plenty of ways to mix up the Wall of Wolf. Germ's WoW which consists of a rising Bair and a fast fall Bair in 1 full jump is very versatile, and there are plenty of ways to mix this up. If they roll/move towards you to anticipate where u land and punish you, you can airdodge behind them while holding A. This will start the AAA combo the very first frame you can start and i dont know of any attacks that attacks behind a character faster than wolf's AAA attack. If you DI too far away for an AAA combo, you can use your blaster and then just start the wall again. Finally, if they just start shielding, you can grab them instead of the AAA combo. When they reach a high percent, you can also substitute a downsmash or uptilt instead of the AAA combo to finish them off.

Also, I've found that if you mix in short hop fast fall bairs into the wolf wall (mostly when you retreat) it makes it harder for your opponent to penetrate your wall.

All in all, I feel that the WoW CAN BE perfected to the point where you can respond to any counter the opponent is using against it. Therefore, I feel it is a very viable tactic and Wolf users should learn to respond to opponent's WoW counters instead of just giving up on the wall completely.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This is true. However, it's still very situational...

 

[Astrokirby]

IMO, Dthrow is his best. It can lead to tech-chases (lower-%), spacing (higher-%), or to a spike. (fair distance from ledge pertaining to %)
I dont like BThrow, because I turns me around, and takes longer to turn-around into a Bair. Uthrow is DI-able, and situational. FThrow is pretty good aswell, decent knockback, and sends them a little bit upwards, compared to DThrow.

My 2cents. ^_K

 

[§witch]

Marth beats falco, or rather it's slightly in marth's favour, neither side likes the match-up though...
EDIT: I basically solely SH bair, as opposed to a full hop double bair/wolf wall.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's true but the main problem of the Wolf / Falco combo isn't Marth but GnW...for me at least

 

[§witch]

Wait...duh, nvm I got it now. Which is my G&W/MK is our best second.

 

[kailo34ce]

neat thread..well like o.o a good secondary for wolf is marth ^_^ go about even with mk and g&w do well on dd and great on falco,kirby and pika also seem to be problem but marth can do well on them..yay

 

[Fugu15]

Fthrow at very low percent followed by a quick dac works quite well and the DAC almost always gets right behind them which allows a lot of nice aerial follow ups, such as upairs, uptilts, and full jump dairs (the greatest) and is fairly hard to punish, unless they pivot grab.

You can try out this one it looks sick: Fthrow into fast DAC, full jump dair, dtilt, charging DAC.

Right over 25% i will switch to only dthrows though, with a rare bthrow here and there.

 

[Ris747]

I have something to add about the b-throw. At about 41% (I'll have to check on the percentage, I tested it a while ago and never recorded it) the b-throw can lead into an almost 100% accurate sweetspotted side-b.

Sure the d-throw is almost unpunishable and can guarantee you 15%, but it's never bad to switch up your game a bit. It can catch people by surprise and is definitely not something that should ever be used often. At 41% it has almost no kill potential (Unless you're really lucky and your opponent is close enough to the edge when you throw them so that it knocks them a good distance away and you can still grab the edge). Just don't use it in the middle of small stages...

 

[Ris747]

*Edit* Woah forum lag double post, ignore this

 

[Ishiey]

Well, the bthrow can be DI'd a good deal from my experience, so I doubt many will fall to the sideB... but as you said Ris, it's unexpected. I don't know how people usually attempt to DI dthrow, if at all, but maybe we could try to make a chart for this on each character. I'll try that a bit more next time I get the chance.

 

[castorpollux]

I have something to add about the b-throw. At about 41% (I'll have to check on the percentage, I tested it a while ago and never recorded it) the b-throw can lead into an almost 100% accurate sweetspotted side-b.

Sure the d-throw is almost unpunishable and can guarantee you 15%, but it's never bad to switch up your game a bit. It can catch people by surprise and is definitely not something that should ever be used often. At 41% it has almost no kill potential (Unless you're really lucky and your opponent is close enough to the edge when you throw them so that it knocks them a good distance away and you can still grab the edge). Just don't use it in the middle of small stages...

-_-" I can see why the WBR was made now

 

[Ris747]

Why because contributing to a discussion with something that is unexpected and, admittedly shouldn't be used often if at all, is something that is looked down upon?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

-_-" I can see why the WBR was made now

Why? I want to know your reasoning, then I'll tell you mine. But who made the WBR, was that you?

 

[castorpollux]

caz it isnt polluted with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InqdBy86nE4&feature=related


edit**

I didnt make the wolf back room. I'm not even in it

 

[Ris747]

Alright, tonight I got my hands on an actual human to play with and it seems the b-air to side-b is completely useless. Ignore my posts about it before. The player being thrown gets out of the stun of the throw at the peak of the b-throw (The point where he's highest in the air). That makes this move completely useless and can only be hit if the player makes either a big mistake or doesn't know how to do anything in the air or just isn't paying attention...

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

caz it isnt polluted with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InqdBy86nE4&feature=related


edit**

I didnt make the wolf back room. I'm not even in it

I know that, I made it. I was saying you were misinformed of why it was made, which you aren't in a position to do. Ris747 has a point and you were just being bogus to him.

 

[ElPadrino]

Well, all I can contribute to this thread that hasn't been said before is a good secondary for Wolf.

R.O.B.

I alternate between R.O.B and Wolf when I play, while they have some things in common I think one covers the other one's weaknesses, for example:

Things in common: Good range, excelent priority, good punishing moves, medium-heavy, good projectile, reflector (although R.O.B's is crap) and good killing moves (this aplies less to R.O.B)

Things that are diferent:

ROB: He has one of the (in my opion THE) greatest recoveries in the game, he is nearly impossible to gimp but can gimp with great ease, has 2 projectiles that have great range and speed, one if energy based and the other is solid, which gives you 2 diferent option depending on the opponent, both of his projectiles can kill on high percentages, both projectiles need charging, his Arm Rotor is pretty useless in my opinion and not worth using to reflect because it leaves you open, etc.

Wolf: His recovery is subpar, he can be gimped easily by characters like R.O.B, DDD and MetaKinght, he has only one projectile that is energy based and has little range and is slow, his projectile can't kill (can gimp is the opponent doesn't expect it though), his projectile doesn't need charging, his Reflector is an amazing move (for reflecting and otherwise), etc.

As you can see the biggest gap between them is the recovery, which in my opinion is Wolf's biggest weakness.

And because they are not entirely diferent as to be opposite's and they have similar atributes, the transition between them and while you pick R.O.B for the first time will be smooth and easy, as well as counterpicking him in a tournament.


Thats all I can add right now, hopefully it is of use to the WBR.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Something I wanna discuss is that if wolf had an uber recovery like ROBs instead of the one he has now would he be really high in the tier list?

 

[castorpollux]

I know that, I made it. I was saying you were misinformed of why it was made, which you aren't in a position to do. Ris747 has a point and you were just being bogus to him.

From what I see you were pretty clear about why a WBR was made:

Ok so as many of you may know, there is a Wolf Back Room for good Wolf players and contributors. In there we only discuss important Wolf tactics so we aren't plagued by lower level discussion here (no offense to any of you).

Its a room for "good" wolf players and contributors to help advance wolf's metagame by filtering out all "lower-level" discussion.

To be honest, it sounds pretty elitist to me.

**edit**

Sesshomaruonay, I don't think recovery has anything to do with it. Snake, falco, lucario, etc... all have bad and gimpable recoveries like wolf.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

From what I see you were pretty clear about why a WBR was made:



Its a room for "good" wolf players and contributors to help advance wolf's metagame by filtering out all "lower-level" discussion.

To be honest, it sounds pretty elitist to me.

Well duh thats the point of it. Im not a member but its pretty easy to tell that they want to filter out the scrubs and noobs who go "OMG wulfz up-b is broked it does 50%!!!111".

 

[castorpollux]

The idea is still very elitist. It isn' t hard to ignore useless garbage, and ironically, its those scrubs and noobs who are the ones who NEED to be able to observe "high-level" discussion such as which throws are useful (LOL). Too bad they have to settle with reports.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Yea I guess your right in a way.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Castor, please don't take it personal. SOLID isn't part of the Wolf community that long, so he doesn't know the ppl, who used to debate back in the days

 

[Darth JoBak]

great topic, look forward to seeing more constructive discussions posted

 

[Ishiey]

Yeah, I'll admit there's some slight elitism going on (I like to think I'm not too elitist, but who knows), but the whole thing is very benefitial. Before it was just a few people on the boards who all knew what they were talking about, and any newcomers would be shunned, leaving the wolf boards pretty barren. Now, we are able to discuss smaller things on the boards and more serious things in the WBR, making this place a LOT more welcoming (a good thing). Everything gets shown to everyone in the end, and then if there's anything missed, people can point that out, and if it was left out intentionally, it'll probably be explained why it's not useful (if it's ignored it's probably not too important). This also combines a few threads into one, making it more convenient.

And there is a lot more to come, it's the first report after all, just meant for basics. Most players use only dthrow, so some basics about other throws were thrown in there (I think that pun was intended >.>). It's not like more debate can't spawn off of the report, think of it as a starting point I guess.

 

[Ris747]

One more thing. Could there be a possible use to flash canceling? I think I just found a way to reliably perform it if you can just get the timing consistently. From what I've found there are two types of flash-canceling, there's a short one, which cancels pretty much instantly and you slide across the ground but not as far. Then there's a long one which cancels about halfway through the flash and slides you across the ground very far, it reaches about halfway across Final Destination. There seems only to be a very small difference in canceling between the two. The short one is the one that seems like it could be the most useful, as you can almost spam it like a wavedash, I've been able to short flash cancel upwards of about 5 times in a row, which if I may say, looks amazing. To cancel and get the short flash-cancel you wait till you see Wolf's hand moving forward and you quickly double tap b. If you do it right, and get your timing down, you can slide across the stage with just flashes. I don't know it's use yet, because you can't grab or hit or do anything while sliding. Maybe one of you guys can find a use for it.

Actually, now that I think about it, there may be one use for it. If you short flash-cancel and then long-flash cancel on Final destination from all the way on either side, you end up sliding to the other edge. If the opponent is anywhere near that, you can do something from that position. What exactly, I don't know. I'll leave that for you guys to decide.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

The idea is still very elitist. It isn' t hard to ignore useless garbage, and ironically, its those scrubs and noobs who are the ones who NEED to be able to observe "high-level" discussion such as which throws are useful (LOL). Too bad they have to settle with reports.

I think that having these reports is way better than what most character BRooms do, they don't realese their discussions.

Castor, please don't take it personal. SOLID isn't part of the Wolf community that long, so he doesn't know the ppl, who used to debate back in the days

Sucka what you say about me? Lol, jk... And you know I asked you if you wanted to do it.

Yeah, I'll admit there's some slight elitism going on (I like to think I'm not too elitist, but who knows), but the whole thing is very benefitial. Before it was just a few people on the boards who all knew what they were talking about, and any newcomers would be shunned, leaving the wolf boards pretty barren. Now, we are able to discuss smaller things on the boards and more serious things in the WBR, making this place a LOT more welcoming (a good thing). Everything gets shown to everyone in the end, and then if there's anything missed, people can point that out, and if it was left out intentionally, it'll probably be explained why it's not useful (if it's ignored it's probably not too important). This also combines a few threads into one, making it more convenient.

And there is a lot more to come, it's the first report after all, just meant for basics. Most players use only dthrow, so some basics about other throws were thrown in there (I think that pun was intended >.>). It's not like more debate can't spawn off of the report, think of it as a starting point I guess.

It's slightly elitist, yes, but it's a back room for crying out loud, lol... And I think that here scrubs and n00bs can still post how they feel about this stuff, which is why we are doing these reports... And there are lots more to come, don't worry guys, and a new person will be doing it each time, so you will bet different styles of doing these.

 

[Ishiey]

I don't know of anything useful for flash cancels, but I've managed to edgehog with it from the platform on halberd, which was mad sexy. The problem is, with the difficulty of getting the cancel on the frame you want (there are 3, but the 2nd and 3rd are pretty similar) you could end up getting punished severely if you miss your target by only one frame. I use it a lot though, whenever I don't have anything else to do (and when it's not a serious match), short cancels can fake your opponent out, but they should be ready by the time you can do something else because of the ending lag. The best use for this is recovering from above onto the stage IMO, you have enough control of your horizontal movement afterwards to avoid someone from camping your landing spot.

EDIT: well, yeah it's only natural for it to be somewhat elitist, but there's no need to call people n00bs, even if they are. The point should be to encourage the development of the smash community as a whole AND further wolf's metagame, which is pretty much what this is doing. As you said SOLID, this is benefitial to everyone, and eventually people won't see it as an 'elitist' thing. Think about it, if we are really that elitist, would we be sharing it?

 

[§witch]

Illusion cancels are faster than running across the stage. it has mad mindgame potential.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's also awesome for unpredictable recoveries.

@ SOLID

Of course I'm not againt it

 

[Ris747]

I really think there's something more to this flash cancel besides mind games. If anyone with better timing than me can really get something going with this it could be a great thing. As of right now I think (keyword is think here) you can do a chain of some kind with the short flash cancel. If you can time it right when you are next to the enemy your short flash cancel still hits them knocks them forward. Now I'm not saying this will work, but you may be able to continuously do it to someone up to certain percents. As of right now I can only get about two hits in before I miss the timing and can't get any real data from it. I think this should really be looked into

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's not worth it dude. Do you want to get hit, while failing to execute it?

 

[castorpollux]

So Ris, you are suggesting that it can hypothetically do 10%? by the time wolf flash cancels across final destination.

Trust me when i say there really are better options than that even if you have perfect execution.

 

[Ris747]

I'm saying it could possibly do more than 10%. You can do it atleast 5 times from one side of FD to the other without reaching the end, the only problem is I haven't been able to do it 5 times in a row when I was next to an enemy, only when I was practicing the timing and wasn't even trying to hit anyone or do anything with it for that matter.

*Edit* It's not that I believe 100% that this is something that can be done with the Flash Cancel, it's that I believe something else useful can be done with it. I haven't quite figured that out yet and I'm just throwing ideas out there. Maybe it will spark someone's interest and they will want to test it also. Then that person figures something useful out and everyone is happy. I'm just saying, I think there's something more to Flash Cancelling than just mindgames. Is that so wrong?