Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
I like Illusion cancel for flying far past someone while recovering. That's about it.
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WBR Report: The Basics by S.O.L.I.D.
- Thread starter ¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
- Start date
Kashakunaki
Smash Master
I believe the Wolf Wall/Wall of Wolf isn't getting nearly enough credit for what it's worth.
Point:
Point:
It's similar to Dr. Mario or even Falco in Melee. There is a difference to spamming pills or lasers, respectively, and then spamming them intelligently. Both characters have a very effective projectile with many different ways to execute said projectile. For Dr. Mario there is SHP, FHP, DJDP, FHWLP, etc. For Falco there is SHL, RSHL, FHDL, etc. However, if used unintelligently these techniques can hurt your game more than help. Why? Predictability. If you always do a SHL, SHL, and then attack, or a SHL, RSHL, SHL, SHL, then grab or something to that effect, your world is going to get rocked. Same for Dr. Mario and same for Wolf. Rather than a projectile, which is simply another form of an attack (a ranged attack), we are dealing with Wolf's Bair, another form of an attack (a physical attack). They are really rather quite relatable.
Now applying the same ideology to Wolf's strategy you'll see we get a very similar result. You can (I'll spell these out unlike the Melee acronyms for simplicity's sake):
Short Hop Bair
Short Hop Fast Fall Bair
Full Hop Single Bair
Full Hop Double Bair
Short Hop Bair > Double Jump Bair
Full Hop Bair
That's just a small... like, super small list. There are also several variants of those listed. However, there is something else I believe must be brought to light and is vital in the transformation from mindless spamming to effective strategy for Wall of Wolf. It is imperative that you also include FEINTS into your strategy. The same was similar in Melee. Falco or Dr. Mario would short hop for a laser or pill, respectively. The opponent would prepare accordingly and WHAT YOU SAY? No pill or laser? It's a fake. They short hop, land, and smash or something to that effect. Feints are vital for the strategy to be effective. Empty short hops, short hop Bairs to empty double jumps, etc.
Now what's the difference between spamming bair and Wall of Wolf (aka spamming bair intelligently)? Wall of Wolf is the process of utilizing different feints and the different methods of Bair approaches or retreats to effectively confuse or pressure the opponent into a disadvantageous position that you can capitalize on, or to put it simply for others: mindgames.
A prime example of spamming Bair would be [Short Hop Bair - Short Hop Bair - Attack - Repeat] or [Full Hop Double Bair - Short Hop Bair - Repeat] etc. You get my point.
I continue to incorporate the Wall of Wolf into my gameplay to this day, and I've been playing since Japanese Brawl's release date. As a matter of fact I was at a Smashfest just last night, and the person I was fighting said, "man, you are really good at faking out with your Bair. I can hardly ever tell what you're going to do." A good compliment if I do say so myself. No, I wasn't playing some scrub.
Point:
A few last points I'd like to make about the Wolf Wall is that spacing is another equally important aspect of the strategy, as you mentioned.
I'd also like to say that a Fsmash after a Bair is not an aspect of the Wolf Wall itself. I'm not saying that's what you said, it's just that's the implication I interpreted. The wall itself deals with just the Bairs and forcing your opponent into the disadvantageous position for them and an advantageous position for yourself. What you do once you're in that position is no longer an aspect of the strategy itself.
Point:
Counterpoint: The Wall of Wolf doesn't necessarily entail using your double jump. It's vital to understand that there are many different methods and combinations when using the technique. Beside, the majority of the cast have poor aerial game on their six o' clock. The few exceptions I can think of off the top of my head are Ike, Lucairo, and Dedede.
Point:
Counterpoint: The Wall of Wolf and "spamming Bair intelligently" are synonymous as they are the same thing.
It's similar to Dr. Mario or even Falco in Melee. There is a difference to spamming pills or lasers, respectively, and then spamming them intelligently. Both characters have a very effective projectile with many different ways to execute said projectile. For Dr. Mario there is SHP, FHP, DJDP, FHWLP, etc. For Falco there is SHL, RSHL, FHDL, etc. However, if used unintelligently these techniques can hurt your game more than help. Why? Predictability. If you always do a SHL, SHL, and then attack, or a SHL, RSHL, SHL, SHL, then grab or something to that effect, your world is going to get rocked. Same for Dr. Mario and same for Wolf. Rather than a projectile, which is simply another form of an attack (a ranged attack), we are dealing with Wolf's Bair, another form of an attack (a physical attack). They are really rather quite relatable.
Now applying the same ideology to Wolf's strategy you'll see we get a very similar result. You can (I'll spell these out unlike the Melee acronyms for simplicity's sake):
Short Hop Bair
Short Hop Fast Fall Bair
Full Hop Single Bair
Full Hop Double Bair
Short Hop Bair > Double Jump Bair
Full Hop Bair
That's just a small... like, super small list. There are also several variants of those listed. However, there is something else I believe must be brought to light and is vital in the transformation from mindless spamming to effective strategy for Wall of Wolf. It is imperative that you also include FEINTS into your strategy. The same was similar in Melee. Falco or Dr. Mario would short hop for a laser or pill, respectively. The opponent would prepare accordingly and WHAT YOU SAY? No pill or laser? It's a fake. They short hop, land, and smash or something to that effect. Feints are vital for the strategy to be effective. Empty short hops, short hop Bairs to empty double jumps, etc.
Now what's the difference between spamming bair and Wall of Wolf (aka spamming bair intelligently)? Wall of Wolf is the process of utilizing different feints and the different methods of Bair approaches or retreats to effectively confuse or pressure the opponent into a disadvantageous position that you can capitalize on, or to put it simply for others: mindgames.
A prime example of spamming Bair would be [Short Hop Bair - Short Hop Bair - Attack - Repeat] or [Full Hop Double Bair - Short Hop Bair - Repeat] etc. You get my point.
I continue to incorporate the Wall of Wolf into my gameplay to this day, and I've been playing since Japanese Brawl's release date. As a matter of fact I was at a Smashfest just last night, and the person I was fighting said, "man, you are really good at faking out with your Bair. I can hardly ever tell what you're going to do." A good compliment if I do say so myself. No, I wasn't playing some scrub.
Point:
Counterpoint: I haven't seen those matches, but I will go find them and probably edit my post with my personal opinions about them.
A few last points I'd like to make about the Wolf Wall is that spacing is another equally important aspect of the strategy, as you mentioned.
I'd also like to say that a Fsmash after a Bair is not an aspect of the Wolf Wall itself. I'm not saying that's what you said, it's just that's the implication I interpreted. The wall itself deals with just the Bairs and forcing your opponent into the disadvantageous position for them and an advantageous position for yourself. What you do once you're in that position is no longer an aspect of the strategy itself.
Kash, your Wall of text is indeed impressive. However, that Wall of Wolf is generally consiedered SH bair -> Djump bair bair.. While you're mostly right, nobody denies that Bair -> retreating fair is a good tactic. On the contrary. In fact we want to point ou that these alterations are generally superior to the "usual" Wall of Wolf, which is the same as "unintelligent" spam.
Many characters have a weak spot below them, yes. But they never do a full hop for no reason. Marth has his dead spot right below him, therefore he will never do a full hop or a djump. Wolf has the same problems and should avoid exposing his dead spot (unless he's too far away). Many characters can capitalise on it with thir recovery moves.
Many characters have a weak spot below them, yes. But they never do a full hop for no reason. Marth has his dead spot right below him, therefore he will never do a full hop or a djump. Wolf has the same problems and should avoid exposing his dead spot (unless he's too far away). Many characters can capitalise on it with thir recovery moves.
Kashakunaki
Smash Master
Point:
Point:
For starters, you cannot simply state something as fact without backing it up. I said that the Wall of Wolf is not the same as "unintelligent spam" and gave evidence to support my reasoning. However, you merely claim something to be truth without attempting to justify it at all. That is not an intelligent way to go about proving a point.
Secondly, if you dive through the depths of these boards I believe you will find evidence that I myself was the first one, albeit an obvious strategy, to bring the strategy to light and even name it. I think the person that came up with the technique itself would know what it is more than you. The community has simply adopted a skewed version of my initial explanation.
Point:
Secondly, almost every single thing an experienced, seasoned, veteran, professional, or whatever you want to refer to them as does is planned. If a Marth player does a full hop, it's for a reason. Let me establish a hypothetical scenario for you.
Marth is fighting a Metaknight. The Marth player is looking for an opening to kill or punish the Metaknight because the Metaknight is at a high percent. In attempt to create this opening the Marth player full hops, fully aware of his "dead spot," as you put it, and believing Metaknight will attempt to take advantage of this. He attempts so but because this course of action was predicted the Marth player air dodged ahead of time, lands, and buffers a Fsmash. Tipper. Metaknight is out of the ball park.
There is always reasoning for a certain course of action.
Did you fully read my previous post?
Counterpoint: While that seems to be the case, that doesn't necessarily mean that is what it is. You can not simply approach the problem with the belief that whatever the majority believes is the truth. The majority of the people on Earth can believe that the Earth is flat... but does that make it so? The majority simply needs to be educated.
Point:
Counterpoint: Please don't make this more difficult than it needs to be. A few points:
For starters, you cannot simply state something as fact without backing it up. I said that the Wall of Wolf is not the same as "unintelligent spam" and gave evidence to support my reasoning. However, you merely claim something to be truth without attempting to justify it at all. That is not an intelligent way to go about proving a point.
Secondly, if you dive through the depths of these boards I believe you will find evidence that I myself was the first one, albeit an obvious strategy, to bring the strategy to light and even name it. I think the person that came up with the technique itself would know what it is more than you. The community has simply adopted a skewed version of my initial explanation.
Point:
Counterpoint: I have two problems with this point. The first is that you refer to the characters in the game... by the characters. You don't mention any human attachment to the play style of the characters. Marth isn't simply a sentient autonomous being. His actions are a direct result of the Marth player.
Secondly, almost every single thing an experienced, seasoned, veteran, professional, or whatever you want to refer to them as does is planned. If a Marth player does a full hop, it's for a reason. Let me establish a hypothetical scenario for you.
Marth is fighting a Metaknight. The Marth player is looking for an opening to kill or punish the Metaknight because the Metaknight is at a high percent. In attempt to create this opening the Marth player full hops, fully aware of his "dead spot," as you put it, and believing Metaknight will attempt to take advantage of this. He attempts so but because this course of action was predicted the Marth player air dodged ahead of time, lands, and buffers a Fsmash. Tipper. Metaknight is out of the ball park.
There is always reasoning for a certain course of action.
Did you fully read my previous post?
castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,502
Welcome back kashakanuki. Haven't seen you in the wolf boards for a while =O. It's nice to see someone who supports the Wolf Wall. I've gotten flamed before for my continuing use of it.
People have a skewed impression towards the wolf wall due to koskinator's wayyy outdated guide. How have u been doing at tournaments?
Anyways, hope to see more of your posts.
People have a skewed impression towards the wolf wall due to koskinator's wayyy outdated guide. How have u been doing at tournaments?
Anyways, hope to see more of your posts.
Nice to see you pay the boards a visit, Kash. The wall is good if, as you said, is mixed up with fastfalling, short/full hops, and feints. It was meant to be referred to as the simplest/most common version, as Gheb said, sh bair dj double bair. I guess the WoW should be revisited then, for all seperate forms.
Just wondering, how do you prefer to utilize the wall, as in what form seems to be the most effective for you?
Just wondering, how do you prefer to utilize the wall, as in what form seems to be the most effective for you?
Kashakunaki
Smash Master
First I'd like to say thanks for the warm welcome. Not sure why I necessary stopped visiting, but I did. It's good to see some new faces around here, as well as the old.
I've been doing fine. The last major tournament I went to is still Az12Step. I placed 7th out of some 100 or so participants, give or take ten. Reluctantly having to knock out two of my own statesmen and taking out some of Arizona's better players. It was a lot of fun.
I'll be going to OH SNAP in Oklahoma, which should be lots of fun. I'm aiming to win, obviously, but realistically I can see myself placing top ten. I'll bring my camcorder so I can share some videos of myself with the boards. I just watched a lot of Lucien's and Germ's newest matches... and I must say, while they are good, they play NOTHING like me at all. Not sure whether that's a good or bad thing. I was a follower in Melee, so I'm hoping to be a leader in Brawl.
I'm also going to go to El Paso, TX for their tournament and Colorado's tournament, so maybe I can get my name out there, you know?
As far as my applications for the Wolf Wall, go... that's interesting you should ask that.
To put it simply: pressure. I will continue to pressure my opponent with the Wolf Wall (mostly) and often times AC Fairs and lasers until they create the opening I want. That's when I become aggressive.
To put it in much more depth:
After watching Germ and Lucien's videos I've decided to go into an experimental stage of play. Rather than playing to win I'm going to play to learn before Oklahoma so I can improve on my own style of play, but as far as recently goes...
The Wolf Wall has remained one of the most dominating strategies in my game play. I've carried Snakes from one side of Final Destination to the other and killed them, several Ikes, Donkey Kong, etc in a Wall of Pain Jigglypuff fashion (or offensive style).
As I've talked about in my last couple posts, the Wolf Wall can be executed in different ways for example pressuring, comboing, retreating, faking, etc. I myself use it for pressuring more than anything.
In watching Lucien's and Germ's videos I noticed they are very aggressive, like how I used to be (I continue to mention them as they seem to be players everyone here relates to, I personally have little interest in them). They follow everything up with something else.
I prefer a more hit and run tactic most of the time. If I hit with a zero lag cancel Fair, usually I'll make a split second decision that instead of following it up, I'll retreat. If I land a fast falled Bair, I'll Fsmash into it and then retreat. An opponent becomes frustrated when you have a nigh unbeatable defense. If you continue to eliminate their approaches they will become more desperate or frustrated and make more mistakes.
The beauty about the "wall," as we've been referring to it, is the long list, as I mentioned previously, of things you can do. Nearly anything an opponent can approach you with can be countered with some sort of combination of Fair or Bair. While the hit and run tactic may not be as excited to watch or as fast paced, it is definitely effective.
One of the things I do against more advanced players, is I purposefully create holes in my defense or generates patterns. Every does this subconsciously on some level, and when advanced players take advantage of those subconscious patterns, if you fail to pick up on them yourself. that is most commonly referred to as a mindgame. However, by consciously generating these patterns I lure my opponent into attempting to take advantage of it.
Another thing is when an opponent recognizes, "hey, that move is really good. I should be more cautious of it," or in this case Bair, they become almost to bashful for fear of being hit by the move. A good example of this is when you play, say, a Ftilt spammy Snake or a tornado abusing Metaknight. You become much more aware of those attacks, and in attempting to avoid them you often times set yourself up for them, or something worse.
Though, honestly, I think the best way I can transcribe my feelings or descriptions to you is by visually showing you. I'll try to get some matches up soon. I just believe Wolf Wall is far to effective for you to simply address it as, "to use it or not?" It should be more of a question of, "how much or how little should I use it?"
Honestly, I myself use it far too much.
ArcPoint
Smash Lord
Pretty much agreed, Brawl is a lot about spacing.
Nope it's not, it was just kind of an "Off to the side" message saying: Fsmash is punishable/predicted at higher level play.
Good stuff Kash, thanks for clearing that up, I had always thought that the Wall of Wolf was just the... well, the way Kosk described it, probably because I didn't actually start using Wolf/Participating here until about May ish... my mistake.
Edit: Yeah, I think every Wolf main does use the "real" Wall in their gameplay, it really is part of Wolf's game, pressure and punish. Though, I personally don't think it can be separated by categories like comboing (lol), pressuring, feinting, retreating and so on. I think the sheer versatility of the Wall as you've explained allows it to be used as all of the following and more.
This this this this this x 1000. I remember in an in-person tourney I went to, one of NorCal's PR members went against a VERY good ZSS, and after winning the match (Barely, mind you) he said to me "Man, Rare (The ZSS player) was hard to approach, he was always in the air, I only won by 4%" that just kinda stuck out to me, and it's emphasized in the quote: If you are hard to approach, you will be that much better off.
Kashakunaki
Smash Master
No, no mistakes.
I just wanted to add my two cents to the situation. I hope I didn't come off to strong or offend anyone.
I just went through my Wii videos and I got some good **** I'd like to share. Maybe my lazy *** will get it up by this weekend.
EDIT: If I use "to" instead of "too" one more time I'm going to kill myself >.>
I just wanted to add my two cents to the situation. I hope I didn't come off to strong or offend anyone.
I just went through my Wii videos and I got some good **** I'd like to share. Maybe my lazy *** will get it up by this weekend.
EDIT: If I use "to" instead of "too" one more time I'm going to kill myself >.>
ArcPoint
Smash Lord
I don't THINK you came off offensive/strong/what have you to anybody. Just that I thought the Wall of Wolf was something else, when it wasn't.
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
I really enjoyed Kashakunaki's take on Bair applications. Good read.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Hmm IMO wall of wolf isnt as bad as some people think. Just dont let them breach your wall.
Also when hanging from the ledge is using the reflector/blaster while doing a short little jump thing onto the ledge any good? Ive been trying it in some of my matches like your hanging on the ledge you do the thing where you jump but only enough to go back on the stage and then use the blaster to knock them away. I usually do this because my friend usually tries to predict my scarring and b-left tricks to mix it up.
Also when hanging from the ledge is using the reflector/blaster while doing a short little jump thing onto the ledge any good? Ive been trying it in some of my matches like your hanging on the ledge you do the thing where you jump but only enough to go back on the stage and then use the blaster to knock them away. I usually do this because my friend usually tries to predict my scarring and b-left tricks to mix it up.
Kashakunaki
Smash Master
Thank you ^_^
I'm very cautious when it comes to returning to the stage. Often times I find if I'm hanging on the ledge, chances are I am at high percent. If that's the case one little mishap and you are over with. I usually anticipate them shielding my attack (reflector, Uair, Fair, laser), so often times I opt for just ledge hopping onto the stage without attacking or jumping. It's up to you, though. Perhaps you could practice the ledge hop AC Fair.
§witch
Smash Lord
For it to be truly effective, FF it. Bair>ftilt is still my favourite thing to do with wolf, everything wolf has revolves around bair, never forget that.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
YES the 00ber 1337 brokedz b-air of sheer ownage.
Kashakunaki
Smash Master
Haha.
I guess it can be known by that title too, if you want
I guess it can be known by that title too, if you want
castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,502
it's actually not the bair itself that makes it so great. it's wolf's amazing air speed as well
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
About Wolf's recovery:
I think non-Wolf players overrate how easy he is to gimp when matchups are discussed. The most likely situation in which Wolf will be gimped is when he's recovering low, he uses his second jump wastefully and is forced to UpB. From personal experience, this is a fairly rare scenario. Since I tend to DI correctly when knocked off stage, the vast majority of the time i'm recovering from up high and can cancel SideB, to fly miles on to the stage. I can play entire sets without having to UpB once, because SideB suffices.
I think non-Wolf players overrate how easy he is to gimp when matchups are discussed. The most likely situation in which Wolf will be gimped is when he's recovering low, he uses his second jump wastefully and is forced to UpB. From personal experience, this is a fairly rare scenario. Since I tend to DI correctly when knocked off stage, the vast majority of the time i'm recovering from up high and can cancel SideB, to fly miles on to the stage. I can play entire sets without having to UpB once, because SideB suffices.
D
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Kashakunaki
Smash Master
Woah... new avatar.
Anyways, I agree.
Well, Wolf's recovery is definitely not very good relative to a lot of the rest of the cast. However, that isn't to say it is necessarily bad (I love it when I Up B to the stage horizontally, and the opponent jumps out to try and punish me, and the Up B pushes them under the stage... that ever happen with you? God that's awesome).
I actually use Up B to recover quite a bit more than Side B. I still find that move to be overrated.
@SmashNoob
Becoming member of the WBR requires to be a useful, valuable member of the Wolf board for a longer ammount of time. It's particulariy important to come up with new, interesting stuff (like Jimbos frame rates) or writte well-thoughts stuff with depth about certain...things.
Most notable: Don't ask to join. It only minimizes your chances. WE'll recognise you, if you prove yourself to be a valuable member soon enough.
@ Turbo Ether
I agree. Wolfs recovery is by no means great. But the number of characters, who think they can gimp him is ridicoulus. Even crap characters like Zelda, Zard, ..., are supposed to gimp him, which is absurd
Becoming member of the WBR requires to be a useful, valuable member of the Wolf board for a longer ammount of time. It's particulariy important to come up with new, interesting stuff (like Jimbos frame rates) or writte well-thoughts stuff with depth about certain...things.
Most notable: Don't ask to join. It only minimizes your chances. WE'll recognise you, if you prove yourself to be a valuable member soon enough.
@ Turbo Ether
I agree. Wolfs recovery is by no means great. But the number of characters, who think they can gimp him is ridicoulus. Even crap characters like Zelda, Zard, ..., are supposed to gimp him, which is absurd
ArcPoint
Smash Lord
Charizard has a spike though D= Plus he's cool.
Agreed. Though, I usually use side B to recover and spike edge hoggers straight down now and then.
Psh, forget about the spike. ROCK SMASH SOLVES EVERYTHING. Just like Falcon Punch, except a lot more useful and on a passable character >.>
And on topic: Recovery... side B always does the job for me, the only thing with upB is how you can't move after it, but that's it, if you angle it well it's not much of an issue.
And on topic: Recovery... side B always does the job for me, the only thing with upB is how you can't move after it, but that's it, if you angle it well it's not much of an issue.
Kashakunaki
Smash Master
Amen.Agreed. Though, I usually use side B to recover and spike edge hoggers straight down now and then.
CHARIZARD, USE ROCK SMASH! AGAIN! AGAIN! ROCK SMASH! COUNTER... WITH ROCK SMASH!
God, that move is broken.
Yeah, but using side B every time is predictable, though, admittedly, I should use it more than I do.
D
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Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Dang that means I gotta actually do something useful.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Not anything super notable, just post intelligently consistently and you're good.
D
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¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
The way you will get in is if you consistently post well and prove to us that you know your stuff. Those are really the only guidelines, and I have looked for guys, but I haven't really been recruiting lately, except Kash. I'll probably have us vote on a couple buys to see if they should come in.
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castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,502
When's the next WBR report coming out?
Not too soon. I won't tell you any details but we're going to do something else (very big) first
castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
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- 2,502
-_________________-
when's this next very big thing going to be revealed?
when's this next very big thing going to be revealed?
D
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¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Ya, it will be, lol. It will HOPEFULLY be really helpful and unexpected. If you think you know I guess PM me but don't post it here please we want to keep it a surprise.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
I said please PM me with your guesses, and no, you are wrong, sorry. Your one hint will be that you are thinking too far out of the box.
Patinator
Smash Champion
I'll spill the beans. Heh-heh-heh.
THE WBR UBER SECRET PROJECT IS A BIIIIIIG GIFT TO ALL WOLVES: A BUNCH OF WOLF FURRY PICS.
I tried to stop them, but... Th-they couldn't let me do that... A-aah...
THE WBR UBER SECRET PROJECT IS A BIIIIIIG GIFT TO ALL WOLVES: A BUNCH OF WOLF FURRY PICS.
I tried to stop them, but... Th-they couldn't let me do that... A-aah...
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
I can't let you do that Patinator. But yeah, that's actually what it is. I can post the discussion if you guys would like.