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WDing return in Brawl? I think so. With a tiny bit of EVIDENCE.

Blubba_Pinecone

Smash Ace
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under a rock
I have a thoery that WDing will return, along with a small peice of evidence!

As you see in this picture, from the Dojo, Link is on the Bridge of Eldin and you can see the classic smoke puff from landing on the ground, but also, if you look closely, you will notice he isn't in the center on the puff, which means he is sliding. Does this mean WDing will still be possible in Brawl? I think it does.



Your thoughts and opinions?
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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That doesn't prove much of anything I'm afraid. For all we know this game features characters simply sliding more than in melee (which seems to be the case logically). Unless Sakurai has an update featuring the implemented wavedash, or it is completely and totally without a doubt a wavedash, I don't think we should jump to any conclusions. We'll find out real fast on December 3rd if it is in or not, so lets just leave it at that.

I know I'm not the only one in here that doesn't want to have another wavedashing debate.
 

Aryman

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Link is probably sliding.

Can we please stop making these topics? All that's gonna end up happening is another wavedashing flamewar.
 

Timat the Slayer

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I have to say, I can see why the OP put this up. It is, if anything, saying that he can slide from what seems to be a drop from the air. Link wasn't exactly the lowest of traction character in melee, so it's also possible all characters have their traction reworked to be the same, if anything.

I don't know, it never mattered to me if the WD returned or not.
 

Timat the Slayer

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Well, IMO, unless they added in a frame or two of lag from landing from an airdodge that either prevents sliding, or made it so a character cannot immediately jump after landing from one, or whatever such technical terms I don't feel like saying or explaining in depth, WDing could still be a performable action.

In Theory >_>

Most likely though, with any form of decent physics engine, or if they just didn't like it anymore, they probably added something in to stop it. It's a toss up really.
 

Mandalore

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 4, 2007
Messages
182
I hope they don't get rid of wavedashing. I'm not sure if that's possible (unless they remove diagnol airdodging). I suppose it's because I'm in the middle of learning it and it would've all been useless if it's not in Brawl.
 

gnosis

Smash Lord
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It seems there's three properties, that, if confirmed, would also confirm that wavedashing is possible without some sort of new programming to prevent it.

The first is the ability to slide along the ground from some form of 'leftover' momentum, based on the character and floor's traction. This doesn't include running, but it does include sliding inside a hit shield, sliding a bit from landing while moving forward or back in the air, and so on.

The second necessary property is the ability to generate a good deal of horizontal momentum while in the air, and to retain that momentum when hitting the ground. This ability is found in air dodging as we currently know it. Though of course, programming could easily remove the second part of this property, while keeping all other aspects of momentum listed above. All the designers would need to do is make a special case where momentum is canceled or severely reduced if the character is in an air dodge when he hits the ground.

And finally, the third property is the ability to air dodge on the soonest possible frame after leaving the ground. By adding some frames of airtime after a grounded jump where you can't air dodge, wavedashing would be destroyed, though wavelanding could still be in.

Now, as far as evidence for either side goes, we have several examples in videos and screenshots of what looks like sliding and air dodging (though no obvious examples of the two linking up), so the foundation is there.

So it currently looks like it all comes down to whether or not they've added some code to stop momentum when an air dodge hits the floor, or whether or not they've add those no-air-dodge frames to a grounded jump.
 

Ess oh Aytch

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It would be silly for him to not put wavedashing back in. He's seen how the wavedash has done great things for Melee, and just taking it out would serve no purpose. It'll only make the game more competitive, and that won't really matter in the hands of a 9 year old. It would only improve the game for competitive players, and for casual players, their fun should not change, unless they start *****ing about how they lost to someone who could wavedash.
 

Kirby knight

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It would be silly for him to not put wavedashing back in. He's seen how the wavedash has done great things for Melee, and just taking it out would serve no purpose. It'll only make the game more competitive, and that won't really matter in the hands of a 9 year old. It would only improve the game for competitive players, and for casual players, their fun should not change, unless they start *****ing about how they lost to someone who could wavedash.
Sakurai has seen what great things it has done for his game? I'm not so sure about that. Most likely Sakurai has seen some video's of advanced players wavedashing; and who knows what his opinion of it is? He may like it he may not. With what I have heard of this "Havok" engine their using now, unless Sakurai wants it in; it will not show up.

No offense but if wavedashing wasn't in Brawl would it effect your game so severely that you couldn't use other techniques(who knows what new ones will be in Brawl) to compensate for the lack of wavedashing?
 

Dylan_Tnga

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Ah not this debate again, yet I can't resist. Well if we're gonna do this ****, then my only advice is don't run with scissors, and don't mess with me.

No offense but if wavedashing wasn't in Brawl would it effect your game so severely that you couldn't use other techniques(who knows what new ones will be in Brawl) to compensate for the lack of wavedashing?
Well I would use walking way more for spacing, I would try to master dashpivoting *very hard to do* I already have a great pivot game, but not out of dashes.

There will be other things to abuse too, I'm sure. And dash dancing has like a 99 percent chance of being in the game, as it was in the first two games, and makes a lot of sense smash physics wise.

I basically use wavedashing for spacing when I'm in a hurry, edgehogging, waveshining, some slight use in edgeguarding at times, mindgames, and wavelanding to avoid grabs when landing from an up throw.

So could I play without it? Yes. But looking at how many things the wavedash enables me to do, I think my game would be seriously hurt and the removal of wavedashing could destroy any chance I have of doing well in a brawl tournament.

But there are always ways to adapt. I used to think without wavedashing I could never possibly play brawl, but now that I've improved in melee tenfold since I signed up, I realize that I am beginning to wavedash less and less, but I still use it many times per match for all the reasons listed above.

Wanna flame me? Bring it on.
 

ALB247

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
182
Pfft, he's just stylishly avoiding the pixels by moonwalking out of the way.

I personally believe that if Nintendo cared about the professional scene, which it appears they really do, they would keep a relatively similar physics system.
 

Ess oh Aytch

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Pfft, he's just stylishly avoiding the pixels by moonwalking out of the way.

I personally believe that if Nintendo cared about the professional scene, which it appears they really do, they would keep a relatively similar physics system.
I'm sure they're just trying something new. In some of the updates, Sakurai has included new techniques that he says are "useful" or "hard to master." That gives me hope that he's thinking about the depth of the game and how far his players can take it. I'm sure it's an honor to have your game being played in MLG tournaments. That's like the creators of Halo 2 not making Halo 3 as competitive. This game got SO popular because of the advanced **** that you could do in it. It would be a huge letdown to a lot of players if things like wavedashing was taken out. Why do you think this game has been in the number 1 spot on the GFAQs Gamecube message boards for basically as long as it's been out? It's because people came to ask how to wavedash, about where tournaments are, what l-canceling is, SHFFLing.... It was all interesting, and everyone wanted to know about it. This game was fun to begin with, and with more techniques to use, it became even more amusing.

Also, it would only help sales if stuff like wavedashing was in it. Small kids would STILL have their moms buy it, and casual players would still buy it. How the **** would they know about the depth? And even if they did know about it, that wouldn't affect their casual play, because it isn't complicated to play this game casually. More competitive players would buy this if more depth was in it. It's either make more money or don't.
 

brawlpro

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lolz, i don't even know if "puffs" in brawl will be different sizes and what not, and i can't tell well if he is the middle or not, there is a pic where mario is doin the air dodge, and i'm sure you will be able to change direction with that dodge, so wdash will be in!!!^_^
 

Takeshi245

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This doesn't prove wavedashing. As much I want it to be there since it helps with spacing, chances are it's not going to be there unless of course they purposely leave it in there. Wavedashing does help with adding depth to SSBM. It's not broken like some of the anti-wavedashers think it is.
 

Aeramis

Smash Ace
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Dec 20, 2006
Messages
609
If that was a WD, that has to be the worst WD distance of all time. Silly Link, WD is for Foxes. But it is probably just him landing with the camera angled to the side which makes him seem off center.
 

DRGN

Technowizard
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Well, we know that wind & smoke can come from a very large variety of things in Melee. Landing, jumping, some B attacks, smash attacks, throwing an item, dodging into the ground, ect, ect. Combine that with Link's posture and it pretty much narrows it down to four things: a jump, dodge into the ground, a land, or a wavedash.

After a bit of investigation I decided that it couldn't be a wavedash because of three (combined) points: the wind animation in the screenshot appeared to be either from a jump or a landing; a wavedash produces no landing-wind animation (which is different from that of the wind animation associated with jumping); and while looking at some video and screenshots for wind/smoke, I found that (unlike Melee) characters in Brawl don't produce any animations for wind/smoke when they jump (only when they land, as well as lots of other things). Even the landfall special (among other things, the dodging into the ground in wavedashing/wavelanding) animation only makes little puffs of smoke, which I didn't think equated to the smoke in the picture and so didn't think it was enough.

But it couldn't be any ol' standard landing because of that odd displacement. So what is it? I know there're some other suggestions about landings, but I didn't think they could fully explain it (why I think they don't explain it below in green). But if I know that wind wasn't from jumping, and it doesn't seem likely to've been from landing, then what is it? It has to be from something. Then it hit me, what if landfall special's animation was changed THAT much? I know it doesn't seem that surprising that these kinds of things could have changed (especially to the future me, aka me when I go back and edit some stuff. he thinks it's more obvious), but it is pretty different if you really look at it. That's the only thing left I can think of. But if that's true then that means, while not necessarily a wavedash, appearently a dodge into the ground still preserves momentum.


The last peice, why I don't think it was a landing animation (other suggestions so far):

Crouch canceling a hit (as red stone said). I just did a little testing and found that CCing a hit does indeed make a blast of wind in Melee, it's also the same wind animation as landing. But judging from how slow those panels move (I looked it up on youtube; I'm guessing the AT is about the same as the original), I don't think the wind animation would still be visible after such a long time since the nearest panel that would've hit him is pretty far away.

DI momentum. Even with a fairly low traction character (Samus), I only got a tiny bit of offset from max DI while falling (about 1/3 of that you see from link in the screenshot). And I really doubt Brawl's Link would have that much less traction than Melee's Samus, so I really doubt momentum from DI was the cause.

Hit momentum. If you were to get hit from something while at high percent, you could recover (move the control stick back and forth) during your flight and land on the ground with plenty of momentum left over to make you slide after producing a cloud. But it doesn't really look like this is the case here at all since Link is near the center of the stage, there's not near enough space for that, plus, I don't think somebody would do that (recover so quickly in the air) in a demo for a screenshot where they'd be doing the most basic of things.



Judging by the factors that make wavedashing possible, I've always thought the most likely factor of whether or not it carries over to Brawl would be the future properties of landfall special (this is along the lines of gnosis's first & second property). That would be the most non-intrusive way to filter out wavedashing. But with pretty much everything else excluded, that screenshot seems to most likely be a bit of sliding from an air dodge. And as for the third property, I've thought of that too, but by taking away that control it would add a little risk to every jump. Though small (varying amounts, depending on the jump speed of the character), I kind of doubt they'd do that, but still, I don't completely rule it out either.

So, while I was pretty much neutral before on wavedashing in Brawl, I think there's a good chance it'll still be there. This is just my conclusion, I know I could be wrong about something or even way off since we don't have a lot of info on Brawl atm; it's just what I came to. However, the more dynamic gameplay that comes out of wavedashing's existence is definitely a big plus, and I hope that if we don't have it in Brawl we have something in it's place to keep spacing and movement just as advanced, integral, & important in competitive play.
 

SirroMinus1

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you FAIL!

I have a thoery that WDing will return, along with a small peice of evidence!

As you see in this picture, from the Dojo, Link is on the Bridge of Eldin and you can see the classic smoke puff from landing on the ground, but also, if you look closely, you will notice he isn't in the center on the puff, which means he is sliding. Does this mean WDing will still be possible in Brawl? I think it does.



Your thoughts and opinions?
omg i hope your not coming from nsider! you guys like to point out the obvious:urg:
 

Dylan_Tnga

Smash Master
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In some of the updates, Sakurai has included new techniques that he says are "useful" or "hard to master." That gives me hope that he's thinking about the depth of the game and how far his players can take it.
At the same time he's saying that techniques such as links grapple recovery, neutral rapid jabs, among other things were too difficult to do in melee, and he is making them automatic. Not to mention ikes little ''Im not going anywhere, but im not crouch cancelling either'' thing, that he mentions will be a part of heavy characters playstyle. Automatic CCing? gay.

Also, this game is for the wii, who's philosophy towards games is they should be easy so that your grandmother can play them and they can make more money selling games to people other than hardcore gamers.

I just hope it doesn't spill into smash brawl, because if this ''melee was too hard, lets make things automatic'' attitude keeps up, wavedashing will be out for sure.

But, we know that sliding is in the game, weve seen characters hit the ground and slide in the trailers, the airdodge is confirmed from the giga bowser screenshot.

Even if its not wavedashing, we've seen a form of wavelanding in brawl. I don't care how you do it, as long as you can still slide around.

I dont even care if they simplify the input for wavelanding because holding diagonal and hitting L isnt hard to begin with, despite the fact that scrubs complain about the difficulty of wavedashing like it involves 20 inputs and 3 years to master.
 

gnosis

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Well I would use walking way more for spacing, I would try to master dashpivoting *very hard to do* I already have a great pivot game, but not out of dashes.
Your last sentence does not make sense. If you have a great pivot game, then you have one period, because pivoting is only one specific thing. You can't suck at a different version of it, because there's only one version, and that version comes out of dashes.

Explain to me your meaning, o Dylan. I am interested.
 

Dylan_Tnga

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Your last sentence does not make sense. If you have a great pivot game, then you have one period, because pivoting is only one specific thing. You can't suck at a different version of it, because there's only one version, and that version comes out of dashes.

Explain to me your meaning, o Dylan. I am interested.
As in when im standing still, I have no trouble pivoting, and I cant understand people who do. I pivot while wavedashing, I do shine turnarounds (which is pretty much a pivot) and etc

Im also pretty good at doing the utilt - pivot - utilt - pivot - utilt combo thingy that marth can do vs bad DI

Pivoting is just the act of turning around, right? I thought dash pivoting was the advanced game of pivoting, and I can do it in a match sometimes, but I find it excessivly hard to do 100 percent of the time, due to it being almost frame perfect..

I dont have a great pivot game I suppose in that case lol.
 

blu3moon23

Smash Cadet
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Aug 26, 2007
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Wavedashing will definitely return in brawl. It was either Mayamoto or one of the faculty who said that removing it will cause some glitches in the game. Dunno if the same can be said for l-cancel.
 

gnosis

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As in when im standing still, I have no trouble pivoting, and I cant understand people who do. I pivot while wavedashing, I do shine turnarounds (which is pretty much a pivot) and etc.

Pivoting is just the act of turning around, right? I thought dash pivoting was the advanced game of pivoting, and I can do it in a match sometimes, but I find it excessivly hard to do 100 percent of the time, due to it being almost frame perfect..

I dont have a great pivot game I suppose in that case lol.
Oh, well, as far as English goes, yes, all those things are pivoting. So you could get away with calling them that, sure, lol. I understand what you mean now.

But in Smash terminology, pivoting refers specifically to performing an action in that one frame of neutral stance during a dash dance. It's kinda like the pillaring beef a lot of Falcos have; pillaring is specifically putting shield pressure, even if it's used for shine-dair combos a lot.

Oh well, I'm not too picky, I was just confused.
 

Xanderous

Smash Lord
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Jun 20, 2007
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1,598
Wavedashing will definitely return in brawl. It was either Mayamoto or one of the faculty who said that removing it will cause some glitches in the game. Dunno if the same can be said for l-cancel.
Don't pull info out of your ***, please.
 
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