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We need to do something. Together. As a community.

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Eat_Cow

Smash Rookie
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I know Nintendo doesn't take petitions into account, but please, hear me out.

There have been many, many reports over internet Smash forums about Smash 4 being floaty, close to Brawl slowness, etc. and many are even calling it Brawl 2.0. This is a huge concern. There's no way that Sakurai would bring the game to Melee-level play, I'm sure that's something we can all agree on at this point.. but Smash 4 should be it's own game, not an extension of Brawl. Sakurai says it's a balance between Melee and Brawl, but in reality, it looks like he pulled the minimal amount of stops to appease people who didn't like Brawl; removed tripping and made the "speed" slightly faster, along with adding some hitstun. In Sakurai's mind, the game is meant to be played only as a "party brawler", even if he's doing a few things to "appeal to competitive players", it means nothing if the mechanics don't lend itself to that type of play.

Sakurai wants to appeal to casual players. Ones that just want to have fun with the game. In reality, though, I know a ton of these "casual" players -- me included -- hated Brawl's floaty, slow physics. The players Sakurai is trying to cater to, for the most part, either dislike slow floaty physics or are going to buy the game no matter what the physics are like because you can fight as Mario and Link and all of the other Nintendo characters. That's not to say that there aren't people who like Brawl's physics; but it looks like that's an unpopular opinion.

"Online message boards are only a small part of the people who play Smash." As I said above, the majority of people just play Smash Brothers because it's a Nintendo-mascot fighter. They don't care about the physics, for the most part, as long as it's playable and fun.

This means Sakurai is going against what MOST of the people that DO care about the gameplay mechanics want!

Sakurai isn't going to add L-canceling, wavedashing, DACUS, any "advanced techs" from Melee or Brawl. That's something we need to accept.

However, while the game is still in development, what we CAN do is at least try to get the physics changed so it's heavier and there's a bigger potential for combos. I think that would be enough to appeal to many people who don't like the floaty physics AND I think that'd make for a healthier competitive environment in the long run.

We need to reach out to Nintendo, to Sakurai, to SOMEBODY who can make a change, members of Smash Boards. Nintendo listened to us when they tried to take Melee out of EVO. We have to make them listen to us again. I don't know how to make this happen, but I'm sure there's someone here who does. If we let Sakurai or Nintendo know our concerns in a civilized manner as a community, we CAN make change. Please, join me, join together as one entity, so we can make the change. We're gonna be stuck with this game for a good amount of years, if the wait between the other Smash games is any indicator. Let's do something to make it more enjoyable for everyone.
 
D

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I know Nintendo doesn't take petitions into account, but please, hear me out.

There have been many, many reports over internet Smash forums about Smash 4 being floaty, close to Brawl slowness, etc. and many are even calling it Brawl 2.0. This is a huge concern. There's no way that Sakurai would bring the game to Melee-level play, I'm sure that's something we can all agree on at this point.. but Smash 4 should be it's own game, not an extension of Brawl. Sakurai says it's a balance between Melee and Brawl, but in reality, it looks like he pulled the minimal amount of stops to appease people who didn't like Brawl; removed tripping and made the "speed" slightly faster, along with adding some hitstun. In Sakurai's mind, the game is meant to be played only as a "party brawler", even if he's doing a few things to "appeal to competitive players", it means nothing if the mechanics don't lend itself to that type of play.

Sakurai wants to appeal to casual players. Ones that just want to have fun with the game. In reality, though, I know a ton of these "casual" players -- me included -- hated Brawl's floaty, slow physics. The players Sakurai is trying to cater to, for the most part, either dislike slow floaty physics or are going to buy the game no matter what the physics are like because you can fight as Mario and Link and all of the other Nintendo characters. That's not to say that there aren't people who like Brawl's physics; but it looks like that's an unpopular opinion.

"Online message boards are only a small part of the people who play Smash." As I said above, the majority of people just play Smash Brothers because it's a Nintendo-mascot fighter. They don't care about the physics, for the most part, as long as it's playable and fun.

This means Sakurai is going against what MOST of the people that DO care about the gameplay mechanics want!

Sakurai isn't going to add L-canceling, wavedashing, DACUS, any "advanced techs" from Melee or Brawl. That's something we need to accept.

However, while the game is still in development, what we CAN do is at least try to get the physics changed so it's heavier and there's a bigger potential for combos. I think that would be enough to appeal to many people who don't like the floaty physics AND I think that'd make for a healthier competitive environment in the long run.

We need to reach out to Nintendo, to Sakurai, to SOMEBODY who can make a change, members of Smash Boards. Nintendo listened to us when they tried to take Melee out of EVO. We have to make them listen to us again. I don't know how to make this happen, but I'm sure there's someone here who does. If we let Sakurai or Nintendo know our concerns in a civilized manner as a community, we CAN make change. Please, join me, join together as one entity, so we can make the change. We're gonna be stuck with this game for a good amount of years, if the wait between the other Smash games is any indicator. Let's do something to make it more enjoyable for everyone.
Stop crying wolf. For everyone's sake.
 

D-idara

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God, Nintendo and Sakurai were taking suggestions at the showfloor yesterday, they ARE listening.
 

Hokori

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I guess these type of threads are just going to keep coming up huh? As D-idara mentioned, they were open to suggestions..that's something in itself, I can live with that. At this point, just have some faith.

Unless you want to make "Super Smash Bros. YOU" where you take everyone's input and make a different game to satisfy the wants of each individual and achieve the impossible by making every member in the Smash community happy :troll:
 

Luigi player

Smash Master
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There have been many, many reports over internet Smash forums about Smash 4 being floaty, close to Brawl slowness, etc. and many are even calling it Brawl 2.0. This is a huge concern.
Sounds great! (though we already knew that since a year)
 

Mechonis

Smash Journeyman
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Impossible to do.

Player 1: "I won't be happy unless wave dashing is in, this game is too slow to."
Player 2: "I hate wave dashing, I'm glad it's gone.
Player 3: "What is wave dashing? Never heard of it."
Player 4: "This game is too fast."

It's really impossible to make everyone happy.
 
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Reila

the true enemy of humanity is anime
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I don't need to do anything. I really don't care about any of this stuff you mentioned.
 

ScottyWK

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Impossible to do.

Player 1: "I won't be happy unless wave dashing is in, this game is too slow to."
Player 2: "I hate wave dashing, I'm glad it's gone.
Player 3: "What is wave dashing? Never heard of it."
Player 4: "This game is too fast."

It's really impossible to make everyone happy.
This is true, but I've never understood the "too fast" part. Wavedashing doesn't harm casual players, just deepens it for competitive ones. Besides, even if online is being match-made by skill level, if you don't like wavedashing, then you probably won't be matched up with many people that like it.

And if you hate losing so much to people that do wavedash, then learn how to do it. Seriously. It's like complaining about sticky grenades in halo or something. If you hate getting killed by them and never use them, well then maybe you should try using them.
 

Gust14

Smash Apprentice
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93
I really support this idea, if some sort of petition or something else is made ill participate.
The wavedashing argument fails so bad. We just want combos, its so obvious yet people only talks about wd, its like a trauma for some people.
Funny how people who "dont care" reply. Usually when i dont care i just simply ignore, to each its own.
 

Eat_Cow

Smash Rookie
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I really support this idea, if some sort of petition or something else is made ill participate.
The wavedashing argument fails so bad. We just want combos, its so obvious yet people only talks about wd, its like a trauma for some people.
Funny how people who "dont care" reply. Usually when i dont care i just simply ignore, to each its own.
Thank you! You get it! I'm not trying to start a hate war or complain that the game sucks. I'm trying to rally people together to try to IMPROVE the gameplay to ensure the quality and longevity of our fun with it.
 

Eat_Cow

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How can you state all of this when you haven't even played the game? Lol.
Many people have demoed it and we've seen the invitational gameplay. It's not the final product, but it's what we've been given to see and play and we need to made our input known so that changes can be made while there's still time.
 
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ScottyWK

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How can you state all of this when you haven't even played the game? Lol.
A lot of us played the game today at Best Buys, but it's still too soon to judge, IMO. Too many off-putting variables.

:4greninja:d
 
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CloneHat

Smash Champion
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This can be summarized by the conversation at the E3 roundtable:

Journalist: I bet I could beat you in Smash Bros. I'm a competitive player. Let me help balance the game.
Sakurai: Have you ever made a game?

They have been more involved with the competitive community than ever, now let's let them do their job.
 

Mechonis

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I just gave wave dash as an example.

I'm a novel writer. My next novel is nearing completion. If someone reads my novel and tells me that they don't like it, then claims I should have written things a certain way so that they'd like it... well, should I? If I do, sure I get that person to like it along with others of that mind set. Now all of the sudden, I have people that liked my novel before the change hating what I did.

You just can't please everyone.

I'm not saying I'm for or against anything. I'm simply stating that fact.

No matter what is added, or taken away, there will be a group of others complaining about point a or point b.

...and I'm relatively certain that those who are truly competitive are the minority of the player base. A very vocal minority, due to their passion. The majority probably doesn't really care about these things, and may not even notice them. -shrugs-
 
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NobleClamtasm

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IMO, there's absolutely no way we can change the way this game will turn out. Sakurai is a visionary. He likes to have absolute control over every game he's in charge of, and I don't think we have any sort of entitlement to tell him what he's doing is wrong.
Honestly, the best we can do as a community is to continue supporting Melee in tournaments. And then maybe, just maybe, Nintendo will release an HD re-release of Melee so the community will continue to thrive in the future. We've already received tremendous support from NoA, and you can tell that they're definitely interested in supporting the competitive community. It's the one's whose actually making the games in Japan where our problems lie. Yes, Sakurai is the George Lucas of Nintendo.
 

Fuqua

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There are some legitimate competitive concerns regarding Smash 4, and it has nothing to do with "wave dashing" or "L-cancel", the game seems like its going to reward defensive play just like Brawl did and Brawl wasn't that well received by the competitive community.

Of course it is hard to judge the game based on limited play time and youtube videos, it also isn't the final version of the game, although i doubt that a lot of things are gonna change until release. So the opinion we now have of the game "could" be completely wrong, having said that I personally believe that the amount of information we received is enough to form a solid opinion on how this game is going to play competitively. If there aren't any game changing techs like "L-cancle" and "dash dancing" that significantly speed up the game and make it more fluid i believe that this game is going to be very similar to brawl gameplay wise, just a little faster dashing and falling speed.

If this game is like Brawl then its gonna fail competitively, that is pretty much certain. If you have a problem with this thread, you do not have the right to complain when everyone is playing melee because smash 4 sucks competitively. YOU have accepted this fate at this very moment right here and now and obviously you want it to be this way. Those melee players you guys hate so passionately are trying to get their input to sakurai and tell him how they would like the game to be. I don't see any issues with that, it is just a request, a plea.
 
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flying_tortoise

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
206
God, Nintendo and Sakurai were taking suggestions at the showfloor yesterday, they ARE listening.
How can you feel so confidant that only a couple people at the showroom can affect a game that will be around for 5 years? It makes more sense to have a lot of people agreeing on a few tweaks that make sense.

This can be summarized by the conversation at the E3 roundtable:

Journalist: I bet I could beat you in Smash Bros. I'm a competitive player. Let me help balance the game.
Sakurai: Have you ever made a game?

They have been more involved with the competitive community than ever, now let's let them do their job.
When the journalist worded it like that, would ANYONE have said yes?

------
Anyways, if Smash 4 could reduce all that landing lag that would greatly help the competitive side of the game.
Also, I think a petition would be the only way sadly... or get everyone on twitter to say the same thing...
 
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RODO

Smash Ace
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If we don't like it then we should do something as a community. Remember that this game can be patched and if it ends up not being that great then we can petition for a new gameplay mode with a different engine/mechanics if necessary.
 

Eat_Cow

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...and I'm relatively certain that those who are truly competitive are the minority of the player base. A very vocal minority, due to their passion. The majority probably doesn't really care about these things, and may not even notice them. -shrugs-
That's what I'm trying to put across. Most people won't even care about the mechanics in the same light the very vocal minority will. So why alienate that minority group if the majority wouldn't care either way? Even for the majority, most people would rather play a quick, offensive based game rather than a slow, floaty, defensive based game. Not everyone, but I guarantee MOST would.
 

Mechonis

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That's what I'm trying to put across. Most people won't even care about the mechanics in the same light the very vocal minority will. So why alienate that minority group if the majority wouldn't care either way? Even for the majority, most people would rather play a quick, offensive based game rather than a slow, floaty, defensive based game. Not everyone, but I guarantee MOST would.
The only problem there is that there is the other minority group that would arise. The players somewhere between hardcore and casual, that would very well raise up their voices in opposition to things taken out being reinstated because they are unable to master the techniques to be truly competitive. There's always two sides to a coin, even if one side remains silent when everything seems near perfect for them at the time. The moment something changes though... well, the battle will forever be raged.
 

Aenglaan

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This is what the Smash community needs to actually do. Enough ******** online. Actually tell Nintendo that these are the things we want; stop acting like they're EA for God's sake. Sure they don't understand the terminology, but then teach Nintendo it so it can improve Sm4sh and all other games after.
 

New_Dumal

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What if I say I'm okay with Brawl ?
Did you already heard not everybody hates Brawl and love Melee ?

I'm very positive to Smash 4 to send any thing to Nintendo as a "community".This game shows how fragile this "community" is, with 50% crying out loud while the other half being ready to a new game.
 

BombKirby

Smash Journeyman
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Honestly SSB4 was fun and all the people in line enjoyed it at the BB Demo. The comparitevly small competitive community (to the casual gaming community... the main consumers) probably isn't going to make them tear up the game from the ground up and make them redo it.

Melee was a freak accident. SSB4 felt like a normal smash game... like similar speed to SSB64 and Brawl. I think Melee Purists need to understand that maybe you really just don't like the series as a whole. You're supposed to be enjoying the characters, the game's charm, wacky combat and cartoony elements (faceplants on the screen) not sitting around on your computer chairs whining about something as minor as the game's speed.

If you really like the SSB SERIES then you will enjoy this and the other smash games to come. I'm am not expecting them to pull off a speed revamp in 3 months. Upping the speed/gravity can have consequences on all parts of the game and it'll have to be tested severely. (Example... one character's recovery may not work with reduced floatiness or one boss' attack may be undodgable, etc) They don't have the time for a giant rework. The suggestions they're gonna take? Probably minor things like "change the color of that character's projectile" or "make Lil Mac run slower" or something. Don't get your hopes up because I and many others do not wanna hear it on release day.

Worst comes to worst you can just make another Project M, mmkay?
 
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RelaxAlax

That Smash Guy
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It feels better than Brawl. Not as fast as Melee of course but faster than Brawl. Like I'd say if Brawl's speed was 1 and Melee's Speed was 10, this game would score a 4.5.

Just because ATs are not as prevalent IN DEMOS AND AN UNFINISHED BUILD, does not mean the competitive side. We are simply left with the groundwork of Smash of reading, reacting, setting up combos and punishing.
 

XalchemistX

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I told the reps of nintendo in nintendo world that I was hoping for a competitive smash game that could be running as long as melee, but it still felt slow like brawl. They needed to add more hit stun and take off the smokescreen after getting hit
 

Dott

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Really, i don't like the reaction of the fans. I know you have been playing melee a long time ago, i also had put effort everyday to get into a good competitive player, but that's not an excuse to make this game more like melee, either more like brawl.

This is a new game, and i think Sakurai wants us to do what i want to, i want to learn, learn how to play a new game, learn HOW TO PLAY SMASH BROS AGAIN.

I don't want to do wavedashes and the same thing i have seen people have been doing over and over again, i want new things, even if it's harder to do those things this time, i want to learn how to deal with it and pull all my efforts again and discover new things, i want that feeling of play something new, of treppassing new difficulties because even if it's almost impossible to DI, i want to master it.

I don't want to already know what things i can do to win even if i didn't spent months putting effort making myself better, because that would be boring.
 
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HeavyLobster

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I do think it's important to be vocal about ways the game could be improved now instead of waiting until the game comes out, since it's easier to fix potential issues now rather than later. It is also important to present constructive advice as to what can be done to nudge the game in a more combo-friendly direction rather than simply complain that the game isn't like Melee. I want this game to be the best it can possibly be and I think fans offering honest feedback can accomplish this. I don't need or want this game to be just like Melee, and I'll actually probably enjoy this game regardless, but I do think that adding a few more combos would make for a generally more enjoyable game.
 

OptimistNic

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God, Nintendo and Sakurai were taking suggestions at the showfloor yesterday, they ARE listening.
Nintendo might be listening, but according to Sakurai's perceived attitude at the showfloor, is HE listening? ("Have you ever made a game?")
 

Eat_Cow

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Guys, I'm not saying they should add advanced techs at all. I'm saying the game feels too much like Brawl. Yes, that means people want it to be more like Melee, but we (or I, at least, and I hope other people agree) don't need it to BE Melee 2.0. We (or I) just want fast-paced OFFENSIVE based gameplay. This game is looking to lend itself to DEFENSIVE, CAMPY gameplay.. Which isn't as fun for most. We (or I) just want Sakurai to add whatever it takes to make it less defensive and campy, and most of all.. not as floaty. That floatiness is the worst, for me.
 
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D-idara

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Nintendo might be listening, but according to Sakurai's perceived attitude at the showfloor, is HE listening? ("Have you ever made a game?")
I already stated that I think Sakurai said that because the competitive player probably approached him with a holier-than-thou attitude, probably trying to dismiss Sakurai as a director with the tone of his voice or something, most competitive players I personally know are kinda like that, so it wouldn't surprise me.
 

New_Dumal

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If I was Sakurai, I don't know if I could made a more respectable answer...
This man builds a fighting game that sells ******** 12 million copies. Some random dude, just because play it in a nice level, thinks can enter the project and take a important part by himself without any experience at game design.

The answer that Sakurai gave was nothing compared what this guy deserved...
If play Smash-competitive was a factor to enter in the production, someone as M2K should enter the building where they are producing completely bad-*** , stylish, and giving everybody some orders.
 

Ultinarok

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Really, i don't like the reaction of the fans. I know you have been playing melee a long time ago, i also had put effort everyday to get into a good competitive player, but that's not an excuse to make this game more like melee, either more like brawl.

This is a new game, and i think Sakurai wants us to do what i want to, i want to learn, learn how to play a new game, learn HOW TO PLAY SMASH BROS AGAIN.

I don't want to do wavedashes and the same thing i have seen people have been doing over and over again, i want new things, even if it's harder to do those things this time, i want to learn how to deal with it and pull all my efforts again and discover new things, i want that feeling of play something new, of treppassing new difficulties because even if it's almost impossible to DI, i want to master it.

I don't want to already know what things i can do to win even if i didn't spent months putting effort making myself better, because that would be boring.
This. Just this.

I liked Brawl better than Melee. The game was slower, but it felt good. Sweetspots felt more rewarding, matches between friends were always close, you could easily live to over 200%, which added suspense to games and made the mind games and strategizing incredible. You played Melee with your hands. You played Brawl with your head. Two different experiences. I played some P:M, and other than some very cool character buffs, I didn't like the feel as much as Brawl. To each his own.

Smash 4 looks awesome, and the gameplay to me looks how it should: a nice balance between both Melee and Brawl, with crisp visuals, a smooth engine and chaotic gameplay. I can't wait to play it, changed or not.
 

Katy Parry

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I played the game today, and I couldn't be happier with the direction he's taken. I consider myself to be VERY compettite, and I play a lot of PM. So yes, the advanced mechanics aren't there. But every character seems like they can stand their own - and that, to me, makes it balanced.
 

nessokman

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I don't know who you've been talking to, but I've heard it's less floaty than brawl, faster, and is unique in it's own right.

This game would be horrible if they took every suggestion, it would be a cluster**** of ideas thrown together. Sakurai can only drag certain groups, get over that fact.
 

Wenz

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I think it shouldn't be more like Brawl or Melee, but more like Smash64. (just no OP pikachu grabs and stuff)
edit : I thought about this comment before I went to bed and realized it would pretty much be Melee without wavedashing if it were to be like the Smash64.

all that aside, i'd still buy this even if it does end up as Brawl 2.0 just for the awsome soundtrack.
 
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AdaptiveTrigger

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People are overreacting to an unfinished game. A tech demo. It isn't the final product.

Complaining about it openly to Nintendo will just discourage them from wanting to do something like this ever again in the future. We are not even entirely sure that any of the characters are in their final form yet. It is possible auto-cancel frames from aerials haven't been added yet.
 
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Renji64

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It is either you become brawl apologist and accept medicority or hope sakurai takes feedback from players. I just don't want another brawl is that too much to ask for now?
 
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