Weekly Move Discussion [Week 20~ Up Smash]

[goodkid]

f-tilt is my second favorite after d-tilt, its hit box is amazingly long, I think it gets longer the further its away from her body, I think the hitbox is shaped similar to a moon.

 

[White-Peach]

I'm liking it more and more if only because I like to pretend i'm a peachy-snake, and her FTilt is his UTilt and i use it OOS for kills :D

 

[Meru.]

Can we swith to another move plz? This week has lasted for almost a month x,x

I request Usmash! =D

 

[Airgemini]

I'll try to update sometime this week.

 

[ExCeL 52]

Ftilt is one of the top moves in my Peach arsenal. It is an amazing aerial block, and knocks the opponent up and away. Can even kill at higher percentages (assuming you picked a low ceiling...which I assume you did).

Why would we do this when Peach dies the easiest on low ceilings?

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Parasol recovery

If you recover with this move backwards away from the ledge, simply press down on either the control stick or C-stick to grab the edge while facing away from it.

I cannot do this... If I use parasol with my back to the stage, I simply cannot grab it. How can I do this?

 

[Eddie G]

Forward tilt has its uses. I personally use it to halt Marth players if they choke on their fair spacing and come in too close. Not a bad move, quick and has good priority. Sorry for my limited input, I call tired johns.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

If you recover with this move backwards away from the ledge, simply press down on either the control stick or C-stick to grab the edge while facing away from it.

I cannot do this... If I use parasol with my back to the stage, I simply cannot grab it. How can I do this?

Ok.. I got it already.

 

[Airgemini]

Sorry for the long period of no updates, its mainly because I've been so lazy lately.
Anyways, this week is Toad. Im expecting a certain someone to post in here

 

[Dark.Pch]

Toad>glide attacks.

 

[Meru.]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183094

Toad explained from T to D. Great guide.

Altough I'm sure almost everyone knew about this, but just in case ;p.

 

[White-Peach]

Jump into projectile spam and toad~

maybe stall underneath the ledge for someone abuse invincibility frames on the ledge, then UpB so you arent mess with?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Almost forgot to say, Toad>Ike off stage.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I would like to contribute to this thread. I think there are a couple of things need to be said for other moves as well.

Dair has amazing priority. You can be almost sure that you are going to stop many attacks coming from beneath. It can stop MK's shuttle loop. You could use float to avoid an attack and responed with Dair (or Nair if you are sure he will be open).

Nair is a good surprise attack and killing move when chasing defenders off the edge (cause Fair becomes too predictable sometimes). Also, Nair is great for quick short hop attacks.

Peach bomber is a good move to surprise off the edge. You can use it to go chase and to return offensively. Also, an air tossed turnip followed by a bomber is good. People tend to react and move after blocking a turnip. Also, if you can predict your opponnent doing something that lag him for a while, an unexpeced bomber coming from afar can punish him.

Now. Speaking about toad. Have you noticed that the first air Toad has a small vertical hop? This is good for recovery and disorienting your opponnets. If you are down at the edge and things are messy on the edge ( 1 vs 1 or multiplayer), Your first air toad can hang you there for a while and then you use parasol. You could also benefit from the first air toad small hop, helping Peach with her mediocre vertical recovery, because you gain some upward distance before you put toad down and can jump, float or use parasol. At last. I think Toad can help stop air momentum ( I need to test a bit more ) and this is good for avoiding death and for improving you manueverability in the air. This is crucial when you mix your resources (second jump, float, bomber) on edge guarding away from the edge. Your first air toad can give you a stop to think and/or react. Not to mention it is a resource itself on the mix. n_n

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I hear Toad's pretty useful

I need some witty comment from Praxis to spark off something worth contributing from me

<3

(plus I have things to be doing :O I'll write something later)

I've ranted and raved about Toad a lot because I think he can very useful indeed

There are times where opponents are agressive or do stuff that's really predictable and Toad is a great way to get them off your back. He's especially useful for if someone is trying to edgeguard you as it forces opponents away from you. He's got reasonable knockback to make him worthwhile when the spores connect

Toad is useful both on the ground and in the air, mainly for head on approaches. In the air, during the first time you use him he does a little 'bounce' (I call this the Toad Bounce but w/e) which is very good for stalling your fall, especially if you're falling and someone is trying to hit you with a charged Smash attack. It's very satisfying to hover over someones missed attack and then to punish them afterwards

Toad's major downfall is when opponents figure him out. Smarter opponents will be expecting Toad at points, paticularly when you are recovering. I've lost count on the amount of times I've hit Peach's with a charged Up Smash who throw Toad out when recovering close by. If you get predictable when using Toad or fall into using him in a regular pattern, chances are you're going to suffer for it

I can't think of anything else to put here that's not in that silly guide I wrote ages ago. Toad is very useful and can be a life saver at times and I wish people would give him some thought in their matches but he's a double edged sword in that if abused too much, it can be very counter productive indeed and often result in loss of a stock

 

[Villi]

Don't abuse Toad. It's bad karma. :[

 

[DrakeRowan]

I like to toad at the edge when you KNOW a ledge attack (or its varieties) are coming. I wouldn't do it no more then once though.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

It's a good additional mix-up for anti-gimp, since MK and Marth players always fall for it at least once. XD

*Warning, using Toad too much results in a harsh slap in the face and a minus stock. ;_;''*

 

[deepseadiva]

I always make the mistake of trying to use Toad as a GTFO move, or a combo escape - doesn't exactly work with a 10 frame startup...

 

[mountain_tiger]

I always make the mistake of trying to use Toad as a GTFO move, or a combo escape - doesn't exactly work with a 10 frame startup...

I used to do that too. Then I realised how good her neutral A slap was, and started using that instead. Oh, and it's an 11 frame start-up, isn't it? Thouigh I suppose 1 frame isn't a massive difference...

Anyway, back on topic, I'd say that Toad is a pretty good move overall. It's improved quite a lot since Melee. Toad is very useful against agressive or predictable players, and it's good against moves like Kirby's Final Cutter and Ike' Aether due to its quite long duration.

The problem is that you can't use it much or your opponent will catch on and punish you. Not to mention that grabs bypass it. And sometimes only one spore connects and they only take 3% damage.

The move is also a risky edgeguarding tool against some characters, though generally turnips, Nair or Fair are better options. So yeah, this move is good for prediction, but nothing to be spammed.

 

[deepseadiva]

I used to do that too. Then I realised how good her neutral A slap was, and started using that instead. Oh, and it's an 11 frame start-up, isn't it? Thouigh I suppose 1 frame isn't a massive difference...

It starts countering on the 11th frame - the first 10 frames are spent on Peach giving immediate birth to the new Toad.

I like jab as well as nair as my GTFO moves, I'm thinking I'm going to adopt my "When in doubt, press A" mantra; it's working amazingly well so far. The one thing I've noticed about myself is that whenever I get really desperate, I resort to Toad which is NOT GOOD.

It's a crutch I need to burn.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Predict & Toad. Toad hop and grab de edge.

* Toad needs to be unexpected. Peach has many tactics for offense and defense. So you better change them often and use toad once in a while by surprise.

* You may try 2 toads consecutively and you can be almost sure that your opponent will expect a third (build a temporary pattern to fool him) Then nail him with something quick as he will wait the 3rd toad to punish or grab. A dash attack may do well for this. Toad mind games are good.

* If you can predict your opponent is going to do something, toad him! This works wonders with aggressive players that spam a lot ( MKs, Marths, Wolves) .

* Another good idea is to use toad a little above the edge. Many opponents try to attack you on the stage when recovering in there, so you can try to toad them and spit them some spores. If your toad does not connect, the little toad hop will get you to grab the edge and you will be safe by the invincibility frames.

 

[chandy]

Toad is pretty hard to use for me... I find the most useful position to use it is against a recovering opponent. If ur afraid of being hit whilst using Nair or Fair as an edgeguard I find toad is pretty useful. Especially useful against Ike I find (both offstage and on)... Otherwise there is always a better option than toad. It's start up lag is too long for it to be one of Peach's best moves.

 

[IxxI]

Sometimes I Jab>Toad on aggressive players.
It works well.

Also, like Dark Peah said, using toad against Ike's recovering gimps him.

 

[mountain_tiger]

So, does that conclude all the stuff to discuss about Toad then? It has been three weeks since it started after all.

BTW, can we discuss USmash next after this please?

 

[Meru.]

Yes, Usmash! This move needs attention.

 

[Metatitan]

lol i once did a fair to toad, he outspaced the fair, attacked the toad and died :3

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

lol i once did a fair to toad, he outspaced the fair, attacked the toad and died :3

That's a problem with Toad, he's highly punishable especially if the spores miss

You want to be only using Toad when you're certain the spores will actually hit the opponent or that you won't be vunerable to getting hit again/punished

Also, I should point out that Toad can't counter grabs and other moves like that

 

[Silent_Rain]

I really enjoy using Toad because my opponents never expect for me to use him.

You really do need to know how to use him properly and not be predictable like everyone else said.

Another thing I would like to point out is the fact that certain attacks will just reflect the spores back.

Those attacks include: Nayru's Love, Falco's Shine or whatever it's called, Ness's and Luca's forward smash...I may be missing some attacks.

I used Toad once before I knew Luca's forward smash would sent the spores back at me. I was near the edge and when the spores hit me, I died. lol.

So be sure you know what you are doing!

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Ok. I still think Toad is very useful if used properly. I also think we should move on with another move. I hope we discuss Parasol after Usmash.

 

[IxxI]

We already discussed parasol.
We need to discuss upsmash.

 

[Meru.]

I really enjoy using Toad because my opponents never expect for me to use him.

You really do need to know how to use him properly and not be predictable like everyone else said.

Another thing I would like to point out is the fact that certain attacks will just reflect the spores back.

Those attacks include: Nayru's Love, Falco's Shine or whatever it's called, Ness's and Luca's forward smash...I may be missing some attacks.

I used Toad once before I knew Luca's forward smash would sent the spores back at me. I was near the edge and when the spores hit me, I died. lol.

So be sure you know what you are doing!

Yes, you forgot Pit's Forward B.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I'm fairly sure that Mario's cape can reflect Toad's spores as well.

 

[Morrigan]

It can.

- Mario's cape
- PK boys Fsmash
- Pit's Side B
- Pit's Mirror (teams, arrow from behind, stage hazards)
- Zelda's neutral B
- Spacies reflectors
- Rob's side B?

 

[mountain_tiger]

I tested it, and yeah ROB's side B does reflect Toad's spores as well. Basically anything that has the power to reflect projectiles will reflect Toad's spores.

 

[Airgemini]

Sorry for the month+ of no updates.
This time it's Bair. I know you wanted Usmash but Meno recently made a guide so I'll just save Usmash for later.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Fair enough. Bair is a move that I'd like to talk about too. I guess I'll start off the discussion.

Personally, I think Bair is a great move. In a sense, it's like a faster version of Fair, but with a bit less knockback. Like Nair, it has high priority and is fast, making it good against aerial approaches and against chaarcters with low priority attacks (e.g. Sonic, Captain Falcon etc.). I also like to use it for edgeguarding a lot because it has pretty good knockback and can be hard to counter for some characters. In fact, if I can't seem to land Fair on my opponent because they keep predicting it or it's stale, then I often use Bair as a back-up killing move, because it's usually pretty effective at about 130%+.

Even the sourspot has its uses. The sourspot hitbox stays out for ages, making it good for punishing airdodges and the like. And of course there's the Bair lock. Granted, I can't actually do it, but I imagine it's very useful for those people that can. I think you can also buffer a SH Bair after a DThrow chaingrab, though I'm not 100% on that one.

So yeah, overall Bair is a great move that I use a lot along with Nair. Definitely one of the better attacks in her arsenal.

 

[Metatitan]

Bair is like a less good version of Fair. That said it's still a great move.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Back air comes out quick (unlike fair) but has a lot of range (unlike nair) so it's a good compromise between the two. It seems to have even more priority than nair too.

 

[Razmakazi]

Bair is like a less good version of Fair. That said it's still a great move.

it's probably as good if not better imo.