What’s the purpose of the roll dodge?

[Guilhe]

In the last tournament I’ve attended, I’ve identified a bad habit of mine: Whenever someone approached me while I had my back turned, I would either shield their attack and roll away or, in an even more noobish fashion, roll behind them.

Training for my next tourney, I’ve now played several matches without rolling once, turning around and jabbing instead. And that resulted in much more opportunities to punish my opponents.

So now I’m wondering, why roll unless you are forced into the ground? Is it my because of my character (Ike) jab overwhelms my roll usefulness? How roll plays in the other characters gameplay?

Discuss.

 

[8AngeL8]

Lucario has a super fast and long roll that is actually useful, everyone else should almost never do it.

 

[GwJ]

The point is to dodge while moving. It's not the most useful but it does come in handy. A rather useless question though.

 

[Delta_0]

In that situation, OP, I'd just short-hop a BAir in their face, but that's just me. The turnaround jab is good as well. SHNAir is an option, but make sure you fast-fall it into a reverse Jab Combo. That's about all the info I have for an Ike main, heh.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Rolling away from your opponent is in general your safest defensive option and is hard to punish effectively unless you're rolling to/at the ledge. The only reason I don't do it all the time is because a spotdodge can sometimes give you better punishing options or because a shield is faster (and powershielding gives you lots of options) but rolling away is safer ... a long lasting hitbox or a move with long startup lag can **** you if you spotdgode (G&W fsmash or Snake fsmash for example) and grabs or shieldpoking moves can **** you if you shield a lot. Rolling away is safe unless the opponent has godly mindgames and predicts and punishes a back roll effectively but that never really happens. I also feels like rolling a lot slows you down but that's not too much of an issue in Brawl.

Rolling behind your opponent is a lot riskier, especially if you have a slow roll like Yoshi or Samus...your opponent can either dsmash or reverse grab you if you do it. However, it can put you in a good position if you use it at the right time....if you fight an MK who uses ftilt you can shield the first hit and then roll behind and try to punish him. Rolling behind is a decent move against long lasting moves as you have plenty of times to punish. You won't see it happening too much in high level play although I've seen D1 doing it quite a lot actually but Falco's roll is really godly.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Rolling is really underrated; its reputation as a "bad habit" move is really undeserved. It's a form of grounded movement that doesn't risk tripping for one, but aside from that, gheb really summed it up. Rolling away keeps you safe, and rolling behind opponents is a risky way to be able to punish certain moves. I don't recall Ike's rolls being particularly good or bad, but you make it sound like you were just using them altogether too much and are now on the extreme where you don't think they're useful at all. Notice those situations where you don't get to jab them and just get hit? Try rolling in those contexts. Don't stop jabbing people out of what you can jab them out of (rolls are usually just neutral position resets which isn't as good as landing a jab), but instead mix the options based on the situation and matchup.

Some characters also have rolls that "naturally" avoid certain projectiles really well. For instance, R.O.B. can roll toward a Pit firing arrows at max speed completely safely. Going all the way is a good way to eat a forward smash and a good Pit will mix up the timing, but that general principle is underexplored and potentially useful as something to throw out once in a while to make an approach a little easier.

Ledge rolling is a good way to get past opponents who get really in your face as you try to get off the ledge. It's overall your least safe ledge option, but it's good for a surprise, especially if you are using a character who lacks an especially quick aerial to use in a ledge drop double jump (that is, ledge rolling would help Ike and Snake more than it would help Ness and Luigi).

Similarly, tech rolls are important; you probably notice that mixing up the direction you roll after a tech or a general get up and sometimes not rolling at all makes that state far harder to punish. The rolls are definitely a very useful part of that situation.

 

[Sosuke]

Lets say someones using their Jab combo on you. (Its one of the jab combos that keeps going if they hold A)
You roll so you can get away from it.

>_>
Stuff like that.

 

[The Sauce Boss]

The point is to dodge while moving. It's not the most useful but it does come in handy. A rather useless question though.

This. Obviously rolling can be a bad habit if you use it too much or predictably, but really it IS very useful.

 

[Napilopez]

You can also use roll dodges to blow up Snakes landmine without injuring yourself if you haz teh spayseeng skizzles. It also depends on character. Lucario's roll rox ur sox, Yoshi's doesnt. For Sonic in almost every instance you are better off running away and running back in or doing a foxtrat away and return with a dashdance pivot.

The point is to be smart about it.

 

[PK-ow!]

Rolling is really underrated; its reputation as a "bad habit" move is really undeserved.

No, it really is a bad habit. It makes enough of a difference for so many new players, in a bad way, that you can honestly give the blanket statement, well-intentioned, "Don't roll dodge. Remove it from your game. When you start to see what you can do without it, only then, can you learn what to do with it." Essentially, 'kick the habit now, but relearn it when you're better.'

Just because, say, there's no "24 land rule of thumb" in constructed Magic at all, doesn't mean it's any less a good, honest mantra to tell your new friend to trust for just until he's ready to question it.
(as wary as I am of using a Magic analogy after recently being demolished for botching one)

Also, the simple answer to the original question is "roll dodging is the counter to poke-spamming (ftilts)."

@sasukebowser: Rolling against a jab gives such a frame disadvantage it's not funny. Just shield.
Except for certain jabs, of course.

 

[illinialex24]

Some characters have terrible spot-dodges, like Jigglypuff, and have few OoS options and have a better option rolling.

 

[Jonas]

Glide tossing

Also, it's good to have three differnet evasion options, bit yeah, some characters' rolls are just too laggy to be practical.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

The spot dodge was designed to help punish your opponent when you have the opportunity. Rolling was meant for regrouping and getting space safely, it's the most over appreciated part of shield tactics by novices and campers.

 

[Dekar173]

Glide tossing

Also, it's good to have three differnet evasion options, bit yeah, some characters' rolls are just too laggy to be practical.

I didn't even think of glidetossing when I saw this thread. Holy oh my yes, rolldodging is hugely useful simply for the fact that it is used for glide tossing.

 

[Frozt]

Don't even try rolling with samus. >_<

 

[choice_brawler]

I think PK-ow! said it just about right.

Rolling is good, but dont over do it. Most people start off rolling way too much, i know i did, and thats bad. If you keep up with this, you develop bad rolling habits (ie. roll behind people a lot) this results in you getting punished with dsmashes and stuff, which defeats the purpose of rolling. You have to know when to roll, and when not to. Having your back to your opponent shouldnt make you uncomfortable, especially with ike. It sets up your bair really nicely, though you cant jab. You can however spot dodge and then buffer a reverse jab.

Ike's roll isnt that great, but it has its purposes. For now it may be best just not to use it. Just make sure that when you do, you dont place yourself into a worse situation.

 

[Kyari]

You can also use roll dodges to blow up Snakes landmine without injuring yourself if you haz teh spayseeng skizzles. It also depends on character. Lucario's roll rox ur sox, Yoshi's doesnt. For Sonic in almost every instance you are better off running away and running back in or doing a foxtrat away and return with a dashdance pivot.

The point is to be smart about it.

Um, you can walk onto a mine and powershield it.

 

[ph00tbag]

I think Gheb put it best. Every defensive option in the game has at least one use when considered abstractly (some characters really should never roll). Rolling away is often a good defensive choice, but not much more. Forward rolls are good for gaining a positional advantage against a slow, frontal assault. They are not, however, primary means of locomotion.

Unless you're Lucario.

 

[Liquid Gen]

When WiFi makes you flub an Up B OOS with Bowser.

 

[Crystanium]

Um, you can walk onto a mine and powershield it.

It's probably safer to roll than to walk and power-shield it. It's even safer to not roll around or power-shield it.

 

[Phantom7]

Ike's roll is almost pointless. I almost never use it

Other characters like Lucario have good rolls though.

 

[PK-ow!]

I didn't even think of glidetossing when I saw this thread. Holy oh my yes, rolldodging is hugely useful simply for the fact that it is used for glide tossing.

But that's not rolling anymore.

Just because one technique's input is a subset of another, does not mean the one can count the other's benefits as its own.

Glidetossing rewrites an essential property of the dodge action (you don't have invincibility), and further, since you have to act so quickly, it doesn't count as a mixup from a dodge.

Glidetossing and dodging are separate techniques. It just happens that their inputs (and the underlying game mechanics - by way of glitch, surely) overlap. There's no necessary connection between glidetossing and dodging; glidetossing as a technique is appraised by what glidetossing can do, and in no way depends on what you can say about dodging. As said, the relation of the inputs is "accidental", "arbitrary", or "superficial" to the actual technique.

Anyway, I think this topic is done. ph00tbag -> Gheb covers about everything.

 

[Still_In_Last_Gen]

Um....not to bother you or anything, Ampharos, but aren't you also on GameFAQs?

 

[Guilhe]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, I can see now how rolling fits in context with some of the characters metagame. The ledge roll is my favorite method of recovering actually; I like to do a ledge hop to see how the opponent reacts and then ledge roll afterward if they try to approach the ledge. Rolling through Snake mines seems pretty interesting; I will test it out and see if it’s better than powershielding my way through.

 

[Tianxiazhai]

DO A BARREL ROLL!

But, rolling is useful for spacing.

 

[The_NZA]

No...Walking is useful for spacing. Rolling is good for having lag time so that you lose an opportunity to space and punish an opponent.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Um....not to bother you or anything, Ampharos, but aren't you also on GameFAQs?

Yes, I have a very ancient and out of date FAQ there.

Also, saying rolling is a "bad habit" because poor players frequently do it too much is like saying that smashing (as opposed to using tilts) is a "bad habit". It's true that most poor players should smash less and tilt more, but we would never tell them to stop using smashes altogether. Rolls are kinda the same way. It's a very valuable defensive option I strongly feel you would be foolish to neglect. It's just that, like all things in this game, it has to be used in moderation, and you have to be good at recognizing when an option is working and when it isn't.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Rolling and spot dodging are actually gay/good in this SSB installment. It IS foolish to completey ignore them, just don't overuse them.

 

[Chileno4Live]

I'm addicted to this habit, and it's difficult to stop rolling behind the opponent. It just goes automatically and it makes me predictable. I can't stop it lol it's like SIGARRETS, AHHHH X_X

 

[_Phloat_]

Yea, rolling is a lot like "Siggarrets".

 

[Problem2]

rolling has very little purposes, none which can be used consistantly. When situation x happens do y does not apply to rolling. I sometimes roll in specific situations where I value being on center of the stage more than getting a free hit, but that's like once every 7 games or something.

 

[PathToEternity]

How about projectiles?

I've never been good at dealing with projectiles, and the best I've come up with is just rolling through them.

 

[GwJ]

No. That's not what you do. You perfect shield them or crawl. Rolling past them is a big no unless you're they're slow projectiles and you're slightly far away. A rule of thumb is to not roll towards your opponent. You'll get punished.

 

[zacharia zako]

how can some ppl say rolling should rarely be used??? i mean spot dodging is alot better and all but is harder to time in my opinion. rolling is always useful for getting behind your oponent or away from them.

just dont roll with characters who have bad rolls like samus or ike

 

[ExCeL 52]

Don't even try rolling with samus. >_<

I lol'd reading this.
I Peach bomb my friend sooo much in his rolls when he is playing as Samus and hes like wtf HACKZ

 

[sMexy-Blu]

I have a little problem with rolling... it saucks.

 

[GwJ]

how can some ppl say rolling should rarely be used??? i mean spot dodging is alot better and all but is harder to time in my opinion. rolling is always useful for getting behind your oponent or away from them.

just dont roll with characters who have bad rolls like samus or ike

Spot dodge is more useful in 95% of the situations.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

just dont roll with characters who have bad rolls

hmm I wonder is there a list of who has and who doesn't have a bad rolling animation?

 

[Alus]

just dont roll with characters who have bad rolls like samus or ike

no, lucario has the BEST roll and it still isn't a intelligent move.

how can some ppl say rolling should rarely be used???

good spacing and/or quick long ranged moves will punish rollers. once you roll you are set in the given direction.


lets say im marth... i perform a SH fair OoS and you decided to F-roll... i could start Dancing blade in the opposite direction and you will be caught.

now lets say you decided to back roll... i will run forward and get a grab...

if you decided to spotdodge the most i could throw at you would be a jab.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

no, lucario has the BEST roll and it still isn't a intelligent move.

Roll gets you punished.

Don't roll, there problem solved. /thread