ban diddy kong?
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what are the reasons to ban a character?
- Thread starter BBQTV
- Start date
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Ban Ganondorf, then Meta Knight will seem less broken by comparison to other characters anyway and we barely lose any depth.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
*Sigh*
You know, just saying "MK has a broken tactic, ban MK" is senseless. Being broken is definitely a ban criteria, but only because it neuters game depth. Now which costs the game more: an MK-only LGL (ZOMG NERF) or banning MK? Assuming that MK is not considered broken without planking.
You know, just saying "MK has a broken tactic, ban MK" is senseless. Being broken is definitely a ban criteria, but only because it neuters game depth. Now which costs the game more: an MK-only LGL (ZOMG NERF) or banning MK? Assuming that MK is not considered broken without planking.
John12346
Smash Master
Is this enough to answer that question?
In addition, what if MK varied and delayed his planking in a way that there were realistically one frame windows of punishment on his planking between each ledgegrab? And in that case, how would we differentiate between unbeatable planking and beatable planking? Suddenly creating a rule for MK on the ledge becomes very complicated.
TeeVee
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2008
- Messages
- 1,570
his time out abilities are still broken with or without lgl though since he can scrooge. and there is NO anti scrooging rules that arn't arbitrary...
we cant even define scrooging...
but w/e, at the very least i would be SATISFIED with a mk only lgl but it still doesn't make sense that we are admitting he is a broken character but choosing not to ban him
SaveMeJebus
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,371
I don't see the difference between ledge camping and walk off camping. They both have a high risk high reward style of play. neither of them should be allowed with any character.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
"High Reward"? What? Yes, 17 damage from a G&W nair is definitely "high reward".
Pathetiqu3
Smash Apprentice
I'm not going to argue you using debate rules. Take what I say and consider it, then respond based on your consideration. Don't argue its relevance to me. Unless you don't care to respect the opinions of others. If that's the case, fine, you're right. I have lost the debate, but offer the loser a sportsmanly consideration.
I didn't know we weren't allowed to complain about smash. Refer above.
I know that American law doesn't require proof behind an opinion, particularly a libelous one, in press. However, I think most other nations don't allow you to have downright stupid opinions. I wouldn't be stating anything here unless I observed it empirically and theoretically.
From a competitive standpoint - there are flaws.
From a game design standpoint - there are flaws.
If you want me to prove these above two statements, I suppose I will, but I figure its common-enough of knowledge that you wouldn't need to be convinced of these things.
Game depth would benefit greatly from having a more competitive design enabled by modification to either melee rules or an entire new set of rules.
Modification inhibits entry into the scene, but so does a bad game. Offhandedly I'd pick the former.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I already explained why you can't add surgical rules to improve the game, did it not sink in the first time?
Pathetiqu3
Smash Apprentice
Nope. Maybe you're just bad at explaining.
John12346
Smash Master
Well, then I guess we should be asking the next logical question...
As far as MK goes, surgical rules are out, as proven by multiple people. So what are our other alternatives? Obviously the flat out character ban exists, but... is there anything else aside from a character ban, off the top of anyone's head? It'd probably be in our best interest to examine every option.
As far as MK goes, surgical rules are out, as proven by multiple people. So what are our other alternatives? Obviously the flat out character ban exists, but... is there anything else aside from a character ban, off the top of anyone's head? It'd probably be in our best interest to examine every option.
SaveMeJebus
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,371
It is when the intent of planking is to time out
John12346
Smash Master
That's probably because MK's planking is low risk, high reward, and it forces the opponent into a lot of high risk, low reward scenarios(aka the multiple different ways the opponent can try to combat planking). :/
There's nothing wrong with high risk, high reward moves in Smash. Take, say, Warlock Punch or Ike's Fsmash for example. If you miss with those, you're in for some big punishment, but if you hit with them, that's pretty much a stock gone.
There's nothing wrong with high risk, high reward moves in Smash. Take, say, Warlock Punch or Ike's Fsmash for example. If you miss with those, you're in for some big punishment, but if you hit with them, that's pretty much a stock gone.
SaveMeJebus
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,371
you can avoid Rest. Keeping the lead is much harder and is probably the only legit way to avoid getting planked.
John12346
Smash Master
I'm still waiting on my question.
A lot of people seem to agree that a surgical nerf, be it global or character specific, isn't a good idea to stop planking. My main gripe is that there's no discrete, enforceable way to stop planking, scrooging, or IDC.
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Planking is bat**** hard to defeat. The procedures required to do so either net you a lot of damage(via Uairs from onstage) or put you at an extremely high risk, low reward scenario(going off the stage) where MK has multiple opportunities to gimp you, scrooge, or simply get back onto the stage and run to the other edge. We can't reasonably expect someone to beat planking like this.
But what if MK decides to vary his planking in a way where he makes it so there's a 1 frame window in which he is vulnerable to an onstage attack each time. Planking rules cover "unbeatable" planking, but they also stop beatable planking, where MK has an otherwise strong ledge game. We can't expect someone to beat this consistently, but it's beatable and also differentiates itself from planking, the more broken tactic.
There's no real way to ban planking in this case without surgically nerfing MK(via removing his strong ledge game outside of planking).
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As far as scrooging, the only rule I've seen on that so far is a scrooging limit, which doesn't cover the rare scenarios where MK botches up an UpB snap to the ledge and is forced to glide under the stage to recover. What if MK goes under the stage 5 times with intent to scrooge, and then he has to recover but misses the ledge with his Shuttle Loop? Are we seriously going to disqualify him because he didn't want to die in that instant?
What if MK is fighting Snake, and Snake has two grenades, a C4, a mine, and a mortar cannon shot all lying in wait near the ledge MK is headed for while recovering? Wouldn't it be the smarter option to go under the stage and get the other ledge? Should we disqualify MK because he didn't want to get blown to smithereens?
There's no real way to ban scrooging in this case without surgically nerfing MK(via removing a very efficient recovery method, and also a way to avoid some attacks).
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As far as IDC, I believe Crow summed up the problem with a rule targeting IDC quite nicely. He makes an extremely powerful argument, and also shows why the IDC rule is also a surgical nerf on MK and subsequently shows why it shouldn't be put into practice as a rule.
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We have all of these rules in place to surgically nerf MK. He has an arguable three broken tactics, and we'd sooner negate those tactics along with a whole bunch of other useful tactics than actually remove the character from the game. I have a big gripe about that one... >___ >;
Now, back to my question. Surgical nerfs and rules are out. What else do we have aside from the character ban? As I've said multiple times before, I'd like to view this from all possible angles.
A lot of people seem to agree that a surgical nerf, be it global or character specific, isn't a good idea to stop planking. My main gripe is that there's no discrete, enforceable way to stop planking, scrooging, or IDC.
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Planking is bat**** hard to defeat. The procedures required to do so either net you a lot of damage(via Uairs from onstage) or put you at an extremely high risk, low reward scenario(going off the stage) where MK has multiple opportunities to gimp you, scrooge, or simply get back onto the stage and run to the other edge. We can't reasonably expect someone to beat planking like this.
But what if MK decides to vary his planking in a way where he makes it so there's a 1 frame window in which he is vulnerable to an onstage attack each time. Planking rules cover "unbeatable" planking, but they also stop beatable planking, where MK has an otherwise strong ledge game. We can't expect someone to beat this consistently, but it's beatable and also differentiates itself from planking, the more broken tactic.
There's no real way to ban planking in this case without surgically nerfing MK(via removing his strong ledge game outside of planking).
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As far as scrooging, the only rule I've seen on that so far is a scrooging limit, which doesn't cover the rare scenarios where MK botches up an UpB snap to the ledge and is forced to glide under the stage to recover. What if MK goes under the stage 5 times with intent to scrooge, and then he has to recover but misses the ledge with his Shuttle Loop? Are we seriously going to disqualify him because he didn't want to die in that instant?
What if MK is fighting Snake, and Snake has two grenades, a C4, a mine, and a mortar cannon shot all lying in wait near the ledge MK is headed for while recovering? Wouldn't it be the smarter option to go under the stage and get the other ledge? Should we disqualify MK because he didn't want to get blown to smithereens?
There's no real way to ban scrooging in this case without surgically nerfing MK(via removing a very efficient recovery method, and also a way to avoid some attacks).
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As far as IDC, I believe Crow summed up the problem with a rule targeting IDC quite nicely. He makes an extremely powerful argument, and also shows why the IDC rule is also a surgical nerf on MK and subsequently shows why it shouldn't be put into practice as a rule.
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We have all of these rules in place to surgically nerf MK. He has an arguable three broken tactics, and we'd sooner negate those tactics along with a whole bunch of other useful tactics than actually remove the character from the game. I have a big gripe about that one... >___ >;
Now, back to my question. Surgical nerfs and rules are out. What else do we have aside from the character ban? As I've said multiple times before, I'd like to view this from all possible angles.
EpixAura
Smash Journeyman
I... don't know what to say. This seems like such a stupid and obvious idea. But with it comes so much potential. This is really an interesting idea.
There's always the option of forcing MK players to use a specific control setting to limit the use of certain techniques. Stupid idea, I know, but it seems like it could lead to something with enough thought.
John12346
Smash Master
Limiting MK to one use, having him lose on a timeout, and giving him a specific control setting to make him less broken... They're interesting ideas, but I can think of a lot of people who'd immediately say, "If MK was that good that he needs (insert any one out of the three aforementioned ideas), he should simply be banned."
You're right that thinking about different ways to get the job done may lead to an unexpected solution, Epix, but try to think of something that could stop MK's broken tactics(planking, scrooging, IDC) that also does not nerf MK as a character, and is also more warranted than the flat out ban of MK.
It's hard, right?
You're right that thinking about different ways to get the job done may lead to an unexpected solution, Epix, but try to think of something that could stop MK's broken tactics(planking, scrooging, IDC) that also does not nerf MK as a character, and is also more warranted than the flat out ban of MK.
It's hard, right?
EpixAura
Smash Journeyman
Hehe, I really just want the flat out ban, but I'd feel sorry for that very small group who uses him for actual fun at tourneys.Limiting MK to one use, having him lose on a timeout, and giving him a specific control setting to make him less broken... They're interesting ideas, but I can think of a lot of people who'd immediately say, "If MK was that good that he needs (insert any one out of the three aforementioned ideas), he should simply be banned."
You're right that thinking about different ways to get the job done may lead to an unexpected solution, Epix, but try to think of something that could stop MK's broken tactics(planking, scrooging, IDC) that also does not nerf MK as a character, and is also more warranted than the flat out ban of MK.
It's hard, right?
Well, the LGL does enough against planking. Scrooging usually has rules against it (yes, I read the post about why they are flawed), and is rarely used. IDC is banned, and there is no reason to unban it.
So... since planking, scrooging, and IDC, while not completely fixed, pose absolutely no problems in many cases, why is MK still such an outlier in these cases? Refining these rules will do nothing. MK is in a tier of his own, even with a LGL, an anti-scrooging clause, and an IDC ban. He NEEDS to be nerfed. Thinking of a way to prevent these techniques without flaws is not only borderline impossible, but also meaningless.
John12346
Smash Master
I guess you have a point there, but you have to keep in mind that each rule does nerf MK in some way. That's the point I'm trying to make. Like, LGL does stop planking, but it also negates MK's strong ledge game outside of planking. Anti-scrooging rules(I know it's rarely used, but still) get rid of one of MK's most important recovery options, and the IDC, idk really, I just left that one to Crow's explanation. I'm just saying that each rule dishes out an extra blow to MK's gameplay, and there are a lot of people who'd rather see him out of the game rather than having all of these rules simultaneously nerfing him and keeping him still legal.
Anyway, yes, I understand MK is still way too good outside of his "broken strategies," as the data Ripple and I have been collecting attests to that quite nicely. But the problem is, we can't just make up a rule to nerf Metaknight, because, as I believe, one could easily make the jump to "If MK needs to be nerfed like this, just ban him; he's too good."
Somehow, we need to come up with a rule that simultaneously fixes the MK problem, doesn't actually nerf him, and is more warranted than the ban.
Well, that's what it seems like, anyway...
Anyway, yes, I understand MK is still way too good outside of his "broken strategies," as the data Ripple and I have been collecting attests to that quite nicely. But the problem is, we can't just make up a rule to nerf Metaknight, because, as I believe, one could easily make the jump to "If MK needs to be nerfed like this, just ban him; he's too good."
Somehow, we need to come up with a rule that simultaneously fixes the MK problem, doesn't actually nerf him, and is more warranted than the ban.
Well, that's what it seems like, anyway...
Honestly, if you flew under the stage 5 times knowing there is a scrooging limit. Then you get edgehogged out of your shuttle loop, you deserve to lose a stock. Just like if you grab the ledge 39 times to stall, then your opponent tosses you offstage and covers your options recovering high, you deserve to lose the game for ledge abuse.
Anyone that wants to cut it close on the limits of a stalling rule will run the risk of screwing themselves over later in the match. You are playing MK, no johns.
Anyone that wants to cut it close on the limits of a stalling rule will run the risk of screwing themselves over later in the match. You are playing MK, no johns.
John12346
Smash Master
What if MK was offstage and wanted to recover under the stage to the other side because he didn't want to deal with all of the traps Snake had set up near the ledge?
What if MK wanted to use his powerful ledge game(sans planking), with no intent on planking, but rather to have a supreme positional advantage while attacking?
You're saying the justification behind these rules is the fact it applies to the best character in the game?
What if MK wanted to use his powerful ledge game(sans planking), with no intent on planking, but rather to have a supreme positional advantage while attacking?
You're saying the justification behind these rules is the fact it applies to the best character in the game?
Uh, if you are letting Snake set up EVERYTHING on the ledge 5 times (or 3) each time u cross under the stage then tough luck, you are MK.
If you want to abuse MK's powerful ledge game to attack someone defensively for 40 ledge grabs then tough luck, you are MK.
If you want to use IDC/EDC to wait for the right moment to attack then tough luck, you are MK.
There should be no johns about this for MKs, if we didn't have these rules those people wouldn't be able to play the character at all. So yea, if you screw yourself over because you played too gay using a broken character then tough luck.
If you want to abuse MK's powerful ledge game to attack someone defensively for 40 ledge grabs then tough luck, you are MK.
If you want to use IDC/EDC to wait for the right moment to attack then tough luck, you are MK.
There should be no johns about this for MKs, if we didn't have these rules those people wouldn't be able to play the character at all. So yea, if you screw yourself over because you played too gay using a broken character then tough luck.
EpixAura
Smash Journeyman
Alright, here's what I've got so far:
MK is broken (Duh)
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Fix MK's gay techniques (Done to some extent, thanks to LGL, Anti-scrooging rules, and banned IDC)
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MK is still broken (Slightly less Duh, but still obvious)
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Nerf MK OR Ban MK
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Ban MK (Nerfing leads the "If he's worth nerfing, he's worth banning" train of thought.
Yeah... this was meant to be a flow chart of some sort, but it didn't turn out right. Anyway, I don't think this method is the right way to go. Well, I do, since I want him banned, but that's not what I mean. We either have to nerf him, ban him, or leave him as is is how I see this, and I CERTAINLY don't want to leave him as is.
The problem is, fixing MK without nerfing him or warranting a ban is impossible. Once you fix the basic techniques which make MK god tier... he's still god tier. Nothing left to do but nerf or ban. Sure these limitations on MK have already done a good bit to nerf him, but he's still broken, and refining these to not be a nerf on a MK would make MK even more broken, which would warrant a ban. As it is, he needs to be nerfed MORE. Removing the nerfs won't balance him out any further, but adding to them will.
MK is broken (Duh)
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Fix MK's gay techniques (Done to some extent, thanks to LGL, Anti-scrooging rules, and banned IDC)
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MK is still broken (Slightly less Duh, but still obvious)
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Nerf MK OR Ban MK
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Ban MK (Nerfing leads the "If he's worth nerfing, he's worth banning" train of thought.
Yeah... this was meant to be a flow chart of some sort, but it didn't turn out right. Anyway, I don't think this method is the right way to go. Well, I do, since I want him banned, but that's not what I mean. We either have to nerf him, ban him, or leave him as is is how I see this, and I CERTAINLY don't want to leave him as is.
The problem is, fixing MK without nerfing him or warranting a ban is impossible. Once you fix the basic techniques which make MK god tier... he's still god tier. Nothing left to do but nerf or ban. Sure these limitations on MK have already done a good bit to nerf him, but he's still broken, and refining these to not be a nerf on a MK would make MK even more broken, which would warrant a ban. As it is, he needs to be nerfed MORE. Removing the nerfs won't balance him out any further, but adding to them will.
John12346
Smash Master
You're thinking it about it wrong. Snake Ftilts you off the stage. Sets C4 and mine. Throws a few grenades and mortars around. It would be a much safer move for MK to recover to the other ledge by going under the stage than dealing with all of that.
And it's at this juncture we find that the scrooging rule is DQ'ing MK simply because he didn't want to get hit by some explosive.
Over the course of 8 minutes, using an area that serves as an extremely powerful positional advantage CAN result in 40 grabs. Maybe not every game, but will happen at some point or another. The issue is there's nothing wrong with strong ledge games. GaW has it. Marth has it. MK has it outside of planking.
And it's at this juncture we find that the LGL is DQ'ing MK simply because he wanted to be in the best possible spot.
I'm not sure about this one. I'll leave it to Crow if he ever sees it.
"if we didn't have these rules those people wouldn't be able to play the character at all."
That is the end result of our argument if it happens. We're trying to prove the rules are all surgical, non-discrete/non-enforceable, and frankly, unwarranted. If we lose a character because of it, then big deal. It makes more sense that we're trying to sort through the rules instead of using arbitrary ones that keep broken **** legal.
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A lot of your arguments seem to be revolving around the fact that the best character in the game has these tactics, and we should just be DQ'ing him left and right if he plays too gay. That's not good reasoning. If, let's say, Mario had planking at a level of MK's(and we also assume MK did not here), and we saw him dominating tournaments using it, we might actually would have to consider a ban for him, simply because he has a advantage that cannot be targeted by a discrete nor enforceable rule.
MK is a double layered issue. He ***** when played normally and ***** even harder with planking, scrooging, IDC.
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,065
Pwneroni (Wario) vs K-Dash (Zelda) r1 @ ECB 8
Whopps my bad just testing something. Don't ban mk, he's not broken.
Whopps my bad just testing something. Don't ban mk, he's not broken.
John12346
Smash Master
...I think you're gonna have to base that conclusion on a TRUE premise, though...
All ban things aside, what makes you think he isn't broken? I want ideas from all sides of the argument.
All ban things aside, what makes you think he isn't broken? I want ideas from all sides of the argument.
EpixAura
Smash Journeyman
Until we see your argument, we have reason to interpret you comment as sarcasm.
You are now deemed pro-ban. Enjoy.
xxmoosexx
Smash Lord
EDIT: Just one second....
EpixAura
Smash Journeyman
True, but MK doesn't just discourage the use of mid-tier characters. He discourages the use of any character who isn't MK. Even top-tier characters are mostly useless. So what if Marth ***** Wario? You're going to be fighting MK. Try to pick a different character for a better matchup? Hah, it will be in MK's favor anyway. Even matchups? Please, only on FD, and, correct me if I'm wrong, they usually have the option to ban FD. So you're left with one option in order for the fight to be even. Pick MK.
Other characters have strengths and weaknesses, which most people use secondaries to cover for. But no matter your main and secondary, you can't get around MK. In the end, most smashers have 3 options.
1. Main one character exclusively, which is extremely difficult, since even top tier characters like Falco have near unwinnable matchups.
2. Have a main and a secondary, which takes a good bit of effort. Borderline mastering a character in Brawl is actually fairly easy compared to some games, but doing so with two characters is never an easy task.
3. Pick MK. It's the benefits of both with the drawbacks of neither. You only have to work on one character, which in itself is an advantage, as you won't have to learn a secondary. Against most players, who have a main and a secondary, you have the upper hand on both, and have had more time to practice MK because you don't need a secondary. Surely anyone can this option is almost infinitely better than the others. The only exception to this? Other people using MK. Why? Because the only answer to MK... is MK. It starts a nearly never-ending loop, ending only when everyone uses MK.