FreeGamer
Smash Ace
I'd love if Copy did at least 5%, and wavelanding out of Cutter Dash needs to be a thing again.
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Not a Kirby player but I play against one every day, and I just want to ask why the hell up b spikes. I just want that to be a meteor.I'd love if Copy did at least 5%, and wavelanding out of Cutter Dash needs to be a thing again.
Sounds like you're not respecting Kirby's options.Not a Kirby player but I play against one every day, and I just want to ask why the hell up b spikes. I just want that to be a meteor.
Oh, and stone killing. Kirbys already hard enough to juggle without him having an armored kill move if you are too late on the up air
Adding damage to copy seems rather unnecessary when starshot does what, 9%? The point of copy is to take the ability, not rack up damage.I'd love if Copy did at least 5%, and wavelanding out of Cutter Dash needs to be a thing again.
Couple of things:Stuff
If your approaches are constantly getting cc'd mix in more swallow.I would gladly trade Stone and Final Cutter's cheese for an overall speed boost tbh.
Also, he could use an answer to CC-heavy characters. Perhaps a U-Tilt less spammable than 3.02 but with fast enough IASA to catch CC spam? D-Tilt having more BKB could work too.
While I agree that you have to make a mistake to get hit by box, that mistake will likely be pretty high and near the blast zone, and I don't believe the punish should be that bad for overextending/whiffing a juggle. Though I don't really care to debate thatYou essentially have to make a mistake to get hit by stone, and the ending is already incredibly punishable by most characters.
Yeah we don't have any tink mains here, I'm one of the only ones that even dabbles in the character. I can see why its so bad, we have no way to deal with bomb camping, but at least we can gimp tink. Neutral is a pain in both MUs but taking quick stocks vs GnW should just never happen if they are playing optimally/smart.Really? I'm tempted to say Toon Link is harder than G&W.
To prevent the spread of false information, Kirby's max air speed is 1.0 compared to .78 in Melee. You're thinking of air mobility (Kirby's is .04 in PM, which is identical to Melee).Just increase kirby's air speed. in sd remix he has double air speed and he's not even close to broken. I believe its .5 in pm compared to melee's .4. which...doesn't help that much. Also rock is so broken. I mean he flies up and down b's wtf! OBviously sakurai samurai didnt learn how to nerf from meta kigby in 64.
On a side note...kirby will never be high tier or even above mid tier if he doesn't have a reliable kill throw, reliable speed, combo throw, or an reliable approach. His approach is punishing. Give him one of those and he'll be solid mid-hightier.
Throughout the past few months, I have read a considerable amount of incorrect information in regards to Kirby. I was curious to see how well the PMDT would balance him this time around, and so I haven’t really posted much in regards to Kirby. However, I think it might be necessary to post some correct information, so that this misinformation can stop. It is not productive, and if anything is preventing adjustments that should occur.Kirby also doesn't need buffs, he's really good lol.
One important reason why CC is such a problem is actually because ASDI down counters one of Kirby’s most important offensive options which is his fair. When whiff punishing an opponent or even just mounting an offense, an opponent can always just take either of the first two hits, hold down to recover instantly and get a full punish afterwards. This is very crippling as it is by far Kirby’s fastest far reaching aerial attack and is very important for his offense in general.You can also always just grab people that are ccing, or dair or max space air hammer.
This is incorrect, and f throw moving the opponent farther away would be a significant nerf. It is very possible to combo a good number of characters with f throw currently, but the execution requirement is high. If the opponent moved too far away, then it would definitely no longer combo.I think the only thing I'd change is more base knockback on fthrow so it puts them much further away. There's no real hope for comboing after it, because unless they don't have a pulse or don't know the MU, the optimal DI for all of kirby's throws to avoidfollow ups/get furthest away is the same. More BKB on fthrow would make it a better positional throw. Also if the waveland out of it felt smoother itd be amazing.
If you are trying to imply that Kirby does poorly against a small number of characters, or only the characters that are relevant, then that is incorrect. Kirby struggles against a wide variety of characters. Furthermore, if Kirby does struggle against so many characters (which he does), and you admit that it is holding him back, then why shouldn’t Kirby get appropriate adjustments?The only thing holding Kirby back is his MU spread with the top characters, struggling vs fox and vs fast/strong disjoint characters (Imo GnW is kirby's worst MU by far, fox/marth are managable, roy feels almost even).
kirby doesn't need Buffs, expecially mobility ones. If kirby got better air mobility and a better dash, a case for top 10 could easily be made because a longer/faster dash distance would change so many MUs
These claims are baseless, and far from being correct. If you still believe that your points actually hold some validity and would like to explain why you think so, then I will refute your points as briefly as possible.Kirby already has some of the best anti-approach tools in the game, if he got better tools to control neutral through mobility he'd be stupid.
Kirby doesn't need a strong offence, because kirby's defense is strong enough. I agree that kirby can struggle vs CC and ASDI down, but nearly all of the cast does(because its a bad mechanic), and kirby does have tools to work around it. the first two hits of fair can be ASDI'd down, so fast fall so the third hit hits them as you fall down. If they shield the hits in many MUs you aren't at a huge disadvantage because of another large tool in kirby's attributes, low profile crouch/dtilt. Its not a perfect solution but fair is a way overrated move. floaties SDIing up/out and punishing fair that way is larger draw back to fair because they avoid the strong hit entirely. I'd argue that dash>jump instant nair is a better whiff punish than fair once the opponent starts doing optimal counterplay for the move the majority of the time.One important reason why CC is such a problem is actually because ASDI down counters one of Kirby’s most important offensive options which is his fair. When whiff punishing an opponent or even just mounting an offense, an opponent can always just take either of the first two hits, hold down to recover instantly and get a full punish afterwards. This is very crippling as it is by far Kirby’s fastest far reaching aerial attack and is very important for his offense in general.
Aside from that, Kirby lacks speed (on the ground but most notably in the air along with mobility), lacks range, and lacks a projectile. These attributes are a problem when combined with his moveset, because Kirby struggles to actually get in to mount a heavy offense. Once he gets in, he could end up being CCed in a wide variety of offensive situations and then forced out having to go through the same process again.
frame wise, 17 frames of start up is just in the realm of react-able (Average reaction time for people is around 16 frames, although its safe to assume most smashers have above reactions times), so if we do assume its a twitch reflex its shield-able on reaction. Sweetspot side-b is -3/-4 on shield at max distance (if spaced properly, I think only DDD or marth could shield grab it, IF that, need to lab it later) so thats another situation where its a safe way to deal with CC, because they are forced to shield an effectively safe (frame and distance wise) move, and then deal with Kirby's fast ground moves and strong grab game. I don't have to explain that situation because dtilting shield grabs is so common for kirby. Cross up Dair is great, and while worse on block cross up dair>uptilt covers many OoS options (unless the opponent has a quick/invincible move up-b OoS, in which yes I agree its bad and you shouldnt use it in situations where they can shield).Although grab is great in general against CC, this applies to every character in the game, and there are many situations in which a grab cannot be attained which is why the problem exists. Having other tools to threaten with, allow tools such as grab to become stronger. Aerial hammer and dair are both poor options to deal with this situation. Aerial hammer is slow (17 frame startup) and the animation is very distinct. Top level players will be able to shield it on reaction. Dair is also quite slow, but most importantly is punishable on block. Since Kirby lacks a strong punish game, it usually ends up not being in his favor if he has to take such risks in offense.
Dont really have much to add/say on this because I don't disagree, the net gain on inhale is pretty underwhelming in many Matchups.What is actually a good option to defeat CC is inhale. The problem though is the lack of reward. Starshot causes only a mere 10%, and the opponent is allowed to cancel the starshot into a wavedash and get a free punish. Copy can also be punished (by Fox only as far as I know), but its reward is also heavily underwhelming. Aside from the negligible damage done (3%), copy makes Kirby lose the ability to perform his command grab (which is conceptually a strong and necessary option), and the abilities he gains just doesn’t make up for it. They either don’t fit his attributes well, or there’s not much reason to use said ability over his other moves in the matchup.
The idea was that Fthrow would just work as a better positional throw to complement bthrow instead of a throw hoping they have bad reaction times and dont know the MU/proper DI. Kirby already has a great throw to gain significant advantage in dthrow, he doesn't need a combo fthrow.This is incorrect, and f throw moving the opponent farther away would be a significant nerf. It is very possible to combo a good number of characters with f throw currently, but the execution requirement is high. If the opponent moved too far away, then it would definitely no longer combo.
Fine, I over-simplified the throw situations. that doesn't change the fact that holding down/away prevents follow ups in most situations from fthrow and upthrow, and forces the tech on dthrow instead of a tilt/smash followup at higher %. Even if its not the complete perfect DI for each of those throws, its roughly/effectively the right DI. Id also like to know these followups, although I'm assuming its waveland>tilt against fatties or something similar to that.Furthermore DI away is actually not always the best DI, since Kirby can get followups against such DI in specific situations.
The problem with Kirby’s grab game is that the throws do such little damage, even though the opponent is guaranteed to react in time to perform the best DI (with all of Kirby’s throws) and Kirby is not guaranteed any follow-ups except in very specific cases.
This is another reason why it is a good idea to improve Kirby’s grab game.
I'm saying Kirby has a good MU spread, although he loses to many of the best characters in the game, or characters that are very popular, not that he just happens to only lose to them. Theres nothing wrong with having bad MUs. I don't think kirby should get buffs to deal with those MUs because in a good number of those cases, the part that should be fixed is the other character. Toning the problem character's tools down is a better solution than retooling the worse characters in response, because it effects less MUs.If you are trying to imply that Kirby does poorly against a small number of characters, or only the characters that are relevant, then that is incorrect. Kirby struggles against a wide variety of characters. Furthermore, if Kirby does struggle against so many characters (which he does), and you admit that it is holding him back, then why shouldn’t Kirby get appropriate adjustments?
Damn, this is needlessly harsh, honestly. I don't get why you're so agressive over me saying Kirby is a good/balanced character.These claims are baseless, and far from being correct. If you still believe that your points actually hold some validity and would like to explain why you think so, then I will refute your points as briefly as possible.
Ignoring the snarky tone, and the fact you omitted "some of" from my claim to try to belittle my point, sure. Kirby's anti-approach options are simple and amazing. great aerials, amazing ground moves, low profile crouch/dtilt (incredibly amazing in so many MUs). Can intercept approachs with bair and uptilt and net a lot from those. Holds ground incredibly well due to these, despite having only average ground movement (still on par/better than shieks, mind you, who is the iconic "hold your ground and stop approaches" character). 3 frame jumpsquat with meaty aerials makes for both amazing approach stuffing and some of the best OoS aerials there are. Bair OoS to hit cross ups. Nair OoS hits frame 6--I think it is one of, if not the best, nairs OoS in the game. Its not anti- approach tools in the sense that kirby throws out hitboxes/projectiles that make it impossible for them to get in, or prevent movement in certain plains for a duration, its that kirby intercepts approaches incredibly well, forces them to whiff through low profile, good wd back/dash back, or taking to the air, quick options after spot dodge, and some of the best OoS options in the game.Also, I would like you to inform me of these “best anti-approach tools in the game” that Kirby happens to have. Then please explain, in more detail, why he’d be stupid if his aerial mobility was to be improved.
If someone ASDI's down either of the first two hits of fair, they have time to shield before the next hit comes out. Down tilt only saves you from grabs from characters that you can duck. Fox, G&W, Squirtle, etc. are still going to grab you after fair unless you cross up.Kirby doesn't need a strong offence, because kirby's defense is strong enough. I agree that kirby can struggle vs CC and ASDI down, but nearly all of the cast does(because its a bad mechanic), and kirby does have tools to work around it. the first two hits of fair can be ASDI'd down, so fast fall so the third hit hits them as you fall down. If they shield the hits in many MUs you aren't at a huge disadvantage because of another large tool in kirby's attributes, low profile crouch/dtilt. Its not a perfect solution but fair is a way overrated move. floaties SDIing up/out and punishing fair that way is larger draw back to fair because they avoid the strong hit entirely. I'd argue that dash>jump instant nair is a better whiff punish than fair once the opponent starts doing optimal counterplay for the move the majority of the time.
Marth definitely can't grab spaced hammer because down tilt forces you into crouch before his grab comes out. Dedede probably can but I'd have to check. Bair to up tilt is also very good on shield, and catches a lot of people by surprise.frame wise, 17 frames of start up is just in the realm of react-able (Average reaction time for people is around 16 frames, although its safe to assume most smashers have above reactions times), so if we do assume its a twitch reflex its shield-able on reaction. Sweetspot side-b is -3/-4 on shield at max distance (if spaced properly, I think only DDD or marth could shield grab it, IF that, need to lab it later) so thats another situation where its a safe way to deal with CC, because they are forced to shield an effectively safe (frame and distance wise) move, and then deal with Kirby's fast ground moves and strong grab game. I don't have to explain that situation because dtilting shield grabs is so common for kirby. Cross up Dair is great, and while worse on block cross up dair>uptilt covers many OoS options (unless the opponent has a quick/invincible move up-b OoS, in which yes I agree its bad and you shouldnt use it in situations where they can shield).
Nair is also good for intercepting approaches.Nair oos is frame 6, tied for best with Sheik and I think a couple of other characters. Bair oos is frame 9, which is also very good. One thing you didn't mention is his pivot grab, which is deceptively big and incredible against grounded approaches.Ignoring the snarky tone, and the fact you omitted "some of" from my claim to try to belittle my point, sure. Kirby's anti-approach options are simple and amazing. great aerials, amazing ground moves, low profile crouch/dtilt (incredibly amazing in so many MUs). Can intercept approachs with bair and uptilt and net a lot from those. Holds ground incredibly well due to these, despite having only average ground movement (still on par/better than shieks, mind you, who is the iconic "hold your ground and stop approaches" character). 3 frame jumpsquat with meaty aerials makes for both amazing approach stuffing and some of the best OoS aerials there are. Bair OoS to hit cross ups. Nair OoS hits frame 6--I think it is one of, if not the best, nairs OoS in the game. Its not anti- approach tools in the sense that kirby throws out hitboxes/projectiles that make it impossible for them to get in, or prevent movement in certain plains for a duration, its that kirby intercepts approaches incredibly well, forces them to whiff through low profile, good wd back/dash back, or taking to the air, quick options after spot dodge, and some of the best OoS options in the game.
Kirby's grab is waaay better than Ganon's because he can actually get grabs against competent opponents.Same. I've learned from the last 4 smash games that people who don't main Kirby don't care about him being better than mid tier. I still play Kirby, but Ganon just does a way better job at punishing and range. Also his grab is way better. Here is to waiting for 3.6 to make Kirby more fun. Also hoping for meta knight to not be boring and bad as bawls....
My biggest gripe is when I link all 3 hits and they go behind me. I know I have to space properly, but Fair is the only move that feels unnatural out of all the characters. But maybe it's just me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯One of the few things I actually like about Smash 4 Kirby is how well the 3 hits of his F-Air link together. It gets annoying to see someone in PM SDI out of it on reaction for the 9000th time. -_-
You're so passive/aggressive over someone saying a character is good lol. You're way under evaluating kirby's strengths, and seem want a lot of weaknesses just patched up.
You have put forth no evidence to support your claims, and there is no evidence that I know of to support many of your claims. This leads me to think that your arguments are baseless, and if you think otherwise, then all you would need to do is to put forth some evidence to support it. You have also misunderstood the information I posted if you think that I am “under evaluating kirby's strengths, and seem to want a lot of weaknesses just patched up.” I do not speak of multiple weaknesses that I want “patched up.” I state facts about certain problems that exist, and show evidence explaining why it would make sense if it was addressed. The only adjustment I even mentioned in the previous post was an adjustment to his grab game.Damn, this is needlessly harsh, honestly. I don't get why you're so agressive over me saying Kirby is a good/balanced character.
By stating “these “best anti-approach tools in the game” I can only be referring to that which you are arguing about. Clearly you said “some of,” so I would only be speaking about those that you think exist. You’re perception of me having a “snarky tone” is irrelevant and I needed to know of your arguments so that I can argue against them, hence why I asked those questions.Ignoring the snarky tone, and the fact you omitted "some of" from my claim to try to belittle my point, sure.
To support your point that Kirby’s “anti-approach” options are simple and amazing, you say the following: All of his attacks (aerial and ground moves) are great or amazing. He can intercept approaches with two attacks. He holds ground well. He has fast aerial attacks that are amazing at stuffing.Kirby's anti-approach options are simple and amazing. great aerials, amazing ground moves, low profile crouch/dtilt (incredibly amazing in so many MUs). Can intercept approachs with bair and uptilt and net a lot from those. Holds ground incredibly well due to these, despite having only average ground movement (still on par/better than shieks, mind you, who is the iconic "hold your ground and stop approaches" character). 3 frame jumpsquat with meaty aerials makes for both amazing approach stuffing and some of the best OoS aerials there are. Bair OoS to hit cross ups. Nair OoS hits frame 6--I think it is one of, if not the best, nairs OoS in the game.
Here you say that he doesn’t have anti-approach options that many other characters have. You say that Kirby can intercept approaches well due to his functional options, but this applies to many other characters aside from the low crouch which only about 4 other characters have (Jigglypuff, Squirtle, Shiek, Snake. Samus if you include crawl). These functional options (that you mention) include good wavedashes, good dashes, quick options after spot dodges, and solid OoS options.Its not anti- approach tools in the sense that kirby throws out hitboxes/projectiles that make it impossible for them to get in, or prevent movement in certain plains for a duration, its that kirby intercepts approaches incredibly well, forces them to whiff through low profile, good wd back/dash back, or taking to the air, quick options after spot dodge, and some of the best OoS options in the game.
In fighting games (generally speaking), when a character lacks a projectile, lacks range and lacks speed, (which Kirby lacks all three) then they are forced to mount offense due to certain factors. In the case where an opponent has projectiles and you don’t, then you can only receive damage while not being able to damage the enemy at all. This leads to something called “zoning.” Characters that are getting “zoned” are forced to deal with whatever objects (or hitboxes) that are thrown at them, until they are close enough, to even attempt to damage the opponent doing the zoning. This applies to Kirby, and is why Kirby needing an effective offense is important.Kirby doesn't need a strong offence, because kirby's defense is strong enough.
Due to Kirby’s attributes, the difference between a just frame whiff punish between nair and fair is 4 frames. That is very significant. Furthermore, the risk of nair is large since a whiff punish nair would have a significant amount of frames before it reaches the ground and if shielded, would guarantee a shield grab due to the lack of range (meaning that Kirby would end up close to the opponent but in front). Since Kirby has no aerial mobility, he can’t fade back to make such an option safer either.I agree that kirby can struggle vs CC and ASDI down, but nearly all of the cast does(because its a bad mechanic), and kirby does have tools to work around it. the first two hits of fair can be ASDI'd down, so fast fall so the third hit hits them as you fall down. If they shield the hits in many MUs you aren't at a huge disadvantage because of another large tool in kirby's attributes, low profile crouch/dtilt. Its not a perfect solution but fair is a way overrated move. floaties SDIing up/out and punishing fair that way is larger draw back to fair because they avoid the strong hit entirely. I'd argue that dash>jump instant nair is a better whiff punish than fair once the opponent starts doing optimal counterplay for the move the majority of the time.
Improving Kirby’s aerial mobility to .080 would not bring Kirby anywhere close to Jigglypuff’s level at all. Jigglypuff’s aerial mobility is at .28. That is 7 times the amount of air control than the current Kirby who is at .04. Fox and Wolf are both at .08 as well, and it would make sense for Kirby’s design for him to have more than them.on kirby's air mobility, the specific change brought up earlier in the thread that I was referring too wanted Kirby's air mobility buffed to the level of lucas or squirtle.(40 to ~.83), which would have been rediculous to the point it hardly needs explaining. Kirby would be nearly a jiggs in the air (yes, kirby would have lower max air speed, although his max air speed is slightly above average), with a great ground game on top of that.
This is not true in all cases. Dthrow sometimes lead to a good advantage and sometimes it doesn’t. The opponent can tech roll a direction that you failed to react to in time and it could happen to be towards the center of the stage (thus putting the opponent in an advantage). They could also reverse pressure, if you fail to react and they teched in place or did something unexpected.The idea was that Fthrow would just work as a better positional throw to complement bthrow instead of a throw hoping they have bad reaction times and dont know the MU/proper DI. Kirby already has a great throw to gain significant advantage in dthrow, he doesn't need a combo fthrow.
The following combos are specifically for DI away:Fine, I over-simplified the throw situations. that doesn't change the fact that holding down/away prevents follow ups in most situations from fthrow and upthrow, and forces the tech on dthrow instead of a tilt/smash followup at higher %. Even if its not the complete perfect DI for each of those throws, its roughly/effectively the right DI. Id also like to know these followups, although I'm assuming its waveland>tilt against fatties or something similar to that.
Once you understand the strengths and weaknesses that Kirby has, then it should be much easier for you to see that Kirby is at a disadvantage against a wide variety of MUs. Toning the problem tools of other characters isn’t going to make Kirby suddenly have even matchups, because it is Kirby’s weaknesses that causes the disadvantages in most of these MUs.I'm saying Kirby has a good MU spread, although he loses to many of the best characters in the game, or characters that are very popular, not that he just happens to only lose to them. Theres nothing wrong with having bad MUs. I don't think kirby should get buffs to deal with those MUs because in a good number of those cases, the part that should be fixed is the other character. Toning the problem character's tools down is a better solution than retooling the worse characters in response, because it effects less MUs.
This is not accurate. Buffing a character by fixing certain necessary tools and adjusting the degree of strengths and weaknesses, does not lead to characters being polarized. What leads to polarization is bad design that is done in extremes. For example characters that are too strong but too slow, have incredibly polarized MUs against characters they can’t catch (losing MU) and may have incredibly polarized MUs against certain characters who just can’t avoid them well (winning MU).I don't think buffing up (even if its slight buffs) of already good, well designed characters to the level of the best characters is healthy. Doing so either polarizes the characters MUs by buffing the strengths, making the MUs that are already favorable even better/easier (while not effecting the bad MUs as much because the other character still exploits the weaknesses significantly enough), or it normalizes the character by plugging up some weakneses or giving it tools that work in nearly every situation. Thats what caused the mess that 3.02 was, characters either having solid/easy tools for every situation, or having stupid good tools that made every MU easy until the other character had a strong answer, in which the character just falls apart (Diddy is still like this, so is tink, gnw, and a few others).
Lack of optimization is the case with the majority of players and their characters. Objective assessment of every character’s tools using debug mode will tell you that certain things are possible and that certain things just aren’t possible. Through such an assessment, one should be able to determine whether or not change is beneficial for competitive play.I don't think kirby needs buffs because theres so much optimization to be done already with getting good with the character's kit and just playing neutral.
As I addressed in my previous points, Kirby is a character that makes sense to adjust. Whether you see this or not is irrelevant. Saying that he shouldn't be adjusted when arguing solely on the basis of balance is just not correct.I don't think kirby needs just all-around buffs because Kirby is already a well designed good character. Some small tweaks/buffs/changes obviously would be okay, but think kirby's strength/weakness balance is fine as a character, and I hope the PMDT gives out small changes to characters above kirby instead.
You can prevent this by fading back as you fair. Also, depending on the situation, RAR bair can be a better option than fair.My biggest gripe is when I link all 3 hits and they go behind me. I know I have to space properly, but Fair is the only move that feels unnatural out of all the characters. But maybe it's just me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But he did put forth evidence?You have put forth no evidence to support your claims, and there is no evidence that I know of to support many of your claims. This leads me to think that your arguments are baseless, and if you think otherwise, then all you would need to do is to put forth some evidence to support it.
But he did specify? Nair is one of the best oos options in the game. Nair, bair, and fair are great at stuffing aerial approaches. All of his tilts come out on frame four or five and have great range. Down tilt is also surprisingly good at stuffing low aerials. Pivot grab is great for baiting grounded approaches.To support your point that Kirby’s “anti-approach” options are simple and amazing, you say the following: All of his attacks (aerial and ground moves) are great or amazing. He can intercept approaches with two attacks. He holds ground well. He has fast aerial attacks that are amazing at stuffing.
The problem with your assessment here, is that after you made a point to specify that he has “some of” the best anti approach tools in the game, you go on to say that all of his tools are great or amazing and failed to specify which of these tools are “some of” the best anti-approach tools in the game. You also do not explain why they are some of the best anti-approach tools in the game, which leads me nothing to argue against.
Crouch is godlike, and does a lot more than just ducking grabsAlso, you are overestimating the strength of his crouch. More than half of the characters in the game can grab Kirby if he is crouched and directly in front of them (which will happen if you approach with nair and get shielded). If an opponent blocks a dtilt, then Kirby is -10 and can be shield grabbed or hit with other OoS options if close enough.
RAR bair is a pretty solid replacement if you don't like using fair. And since you can turn around with jumps bair is also a viable option when chasing offstage. Kirby also has above average air speed (Tied for 13-23 I think).Kirby’s inability to press offensively while moving forward (in the air) is quite prevalent and makes no sense for Kirby’s design. Since opponents will ASDI Kirby’s fair and punish Kirby, this is particularly problematic as there is no replacement for its function. Unfortunately nair is a lot of times not a viable replacement option because if its range and Kirby’s lack of speed/mobility. Aerial hammer is also too slow, especially when combined with the lack of air mobility. Kirby moves too slow (especially in the air) and doesn’t have the range to reach the opponent many times, allowing them to effectively recover or defend.
Down throw's strength is very match up dependent. Against certain characters (Sheik, Zelda, Falco) it's almost useless because of how long their tech rolls are. Against others (Squirtle, Olimar) you can basically tech chase them infinitely until they get all the way to the ledge, which then sets up into an edgeguard situation. Against most characters if you don't get an advantage off down throw you're doing something wrong. The only bad thing about down throw is that certain characters (Mario, Dedede, others I can't remember) can sometimes jump out before they hit the ground.This is not true in all cases. Dthrow sometimes lead to a good advantage and sometimes it doesn’t. The opponent can tech roll a direction that you failed to react to in time and it could happen to be towards the center of the stage (thus putting the opponent in an advantage). They could also reverse pressure, if you fail to react and they teched in place or did something unexpected.
Kirby's main game plan should be to get people off stage and then edgeguard, not outright kill them.If Kirby had really solid KO options (which he does not) then this would be less of a problem.
Unless those tools are relevant to the matchup. If Fox lost up throw up air you can be sure Kirby's matchup against Fox would improve.Once you understand the strengths and weaknesses that Kirby has, then it should be much easier for you to see that Kirby is at a disadvantage against a wide variety of MUs. Toning the problem tools of other characters isn’t going to make Kirby suddenly have even matchups, because it is Kirby’s weaknesses that causes the disadvantages in most of these MUs.