What Can/Cant Sheik do vs Melee

[Shepiroth]

Can she still Ledge stall with her up-b? like through Brinstar lava?
Can she hit with a needle into a grab?
Any other tricks she can/cant do vs melee post here
Please and thank you =)

 

[Fortress]

Sheik can do basically everything she could in Melee, with the main differences in her throw trajectories (specifically: down and back throw). She's not guaranteed a chaingrab off of D-throw anymore, which is the major change she's received. Other notable changes are her crawl and wall cling, which allow for some minor tech and situational buffs to her recovery game.

On the whole, Sheik remains a very viable threat; with a stellar ground game, and sub-par aerial movement (for her tier placement), who relies on grabs, throws, tech chasing, amazing ledgeguarding game, movement, and proper reads to garner wins. If you were comfortable with Melee Sheik, then PM Sheik will be little more than adjusting to the new throw angles, DI traps, roster viability, and stage viability (the latter to a lesser extent; Sheik has the tools available to have a solid performance on pretty much any stage).

That's of course not the same as saying that PM Sheik is 1:1 Melee Sheik. PM is a totally new environment, with new tech, new characters, and adjustments to Sheik herself, among other things. It's going to be a completely different experience, but you should be fairly comfortable with PM Sheik if you had your bearings straight in Melee.

 

[Shepiroth]

So she can be invincible on the ledge like in melee?

 

[Fortress]

If by that you mean Vanish-stall, then yeah, she can do that, but I wouldn't go so far as to say she's invincible on the ledge. She has an incredible advantage over an off-stage opponent, but the rest of the cast has more options to defend against her out there. Doesn't mean she's any less effective.

 

[Shepiroth]

Alright thx was just wondering if she could still constantly refresh invincibility

 

[Fortress]

Alright thx was just wondering if she could still constantly refresh invincibility

Oh, yeah, just like the rest of the cast, she can ledgehop to retain her invincibility frames.

 

[MdevilM2]

Does Sheik retain her DACUS from Brawl?

 

[DrinkingFood]

No, she doesn't, MdevilM2. DACUSs in PM require a character to have jumpstart animations four frames long or more. Sheik's is 3. She also can't do a BDACUS because there's no buffer.

 

[SpiderMad]

Why do BDacus`s work? Where a character in Brawl can not have a normal one but have one able through buffer? Is there anyone in PM that has a BDacus with buffer on?

 

[Deleted member]

stop playing melee sheik.

this is a new game.

seriously stop.

 

[Drodeka]

stop playing melee sheik.

this is a new game.

seriously stop.

Wut.
Like, really, what?

If you mean don't play Sheik like you would in melee, why? This game works almost identically *to melee, so why fix what isn't broken?

 

[Fortress]

Wut.
Like, really, what?

If you mean don't play Sheik like you would in melee, why? This game works almost identically in melee, so why fix what isn't broken?

Because PM is a completely different game, with Sheik placed in a completely different environment against completely different characters. The game's mechanics mirror and expand upon Melee's, but the game is not Melee. Melee Sheik doesn't work in Project M. Same could be said about characters changed as drastically as Link, as subtly as Mario, and for characters not present in Melee to begin with. Having a near-identical moveset (one of her 'core' moves being changed somewhat significantly, mind you) doesn't mean you approach the game in the same manner.

If you don't understand that much, you need to re-evaluate how you play and understand the game.

 

[Drodeka]

Because PM is a completely different game, with Sheik placed in a completely different environment against completely different characters. The game's mechanics mirror and expand upon Melee's, but the game is not Melee. Melee Sheik doesn't work in Project M. Same could be said about characters changed as drastically as Link, as subtly as Mario, and for characters not present in Melee to begin with. Having a near-identical moveset (one of her 'core' moves being changed somewhat significantly, mind you) doesn't mean you approach the game in the same manner.

If you don't understand that much, you need to re-evaluate how you play and understand the game.

So you adapt to matchups. People did that in melee.
There is no reason to completely overhaul how you play a character just because there are new characters to fight. Especially because a lot of the characters you will fight are very similar or the same as they were in melee.

I'm all for innovations and new strategies/playstyles, but saying "stop playing melee sheik" is a very rude and forceful statement.
Have you forgotten what the "M" in "Project M" stands for?

 

[Fortress]

but saying "stop playing melee sheik" is a very rude and forceful statement.?

It's not really rude, it's just how you're going to move ahead in this game. The mechanics are based on the game, it's not the same game. Really, I don't get why that's difficult to understand.

Puff is a pretty good example of anything already said up to this point; playing Melee 'Puff is a quick way to lose in PM due to the vastly different environment she's placed in. Ditto for Sheik, Fox, or any character for that matter. Again, you're not going to move ahead until you can step back and stop playing PM like it's not PM.

 

[Drodeka]

I even partly agreed with you and you still argued condescendingly.
Don't act like things you say are indefinitely true or correct simply because you believe them. Playing this game as if it is melee is definitely not the way to go about it, but it also isn't a "quick way to lose" as the character will still do everything you want and respond exactly as they would in melee.
Any player worth their salt will know how to adapt to a matchup, and would never be purposely or accidentally employing melee-exclusive strategies.

If you insist that you didn't seem rude or condescending, I apologize, but it's difficult to understand your mood, attitude, or tone through text, and the things you said seemed opinionated upon reading them.
EDIT: definitely thought it was you that said "stop playing melee sheik", my bad.

 

[Fortress]

EDIT: definitely thought it was you that said "stop playing melee sheik", my bad.

Not originally, but I was agreeing with Umbreon. And another thing, I'm not being condescending. I'm not calling you out, or telling you you're wrong, just pointing out that PM's an entirely different environment. It's different enough to where you can't play the game like Melee and expect similar results. Doesn't matter if the core game mechanics are similar, it's a different game.

Ibut it also isn't a "quick way to lose" as the character will still do everything you want and respond exactly as they would in melee.

Then why don't you see more Puff players winning PM majors? Puff will do everything in PM that she could in Melee, perform the same tech, boast the same stats, but underperforms unlike Melee. And, why? Because the environment is different; it's PM, not Melee.

Again, I don't understand why that's not understood.

 

[Drodeka]

Not originally, but I was agreeing with Umbreon. And another thing, I'm not being condescending. I'm not calling you out, or telling you you're wrong, just pointing out that PM's an entirely different environment. It's different enough to where you can't play the game like Melee and expect similar results. Doesn't matter if the core game mechanics are similar, it's a different game.

I guess my only disagreement would be that it IS a different environment, but definitely not a COMPLETELY different environment.
At the very least, PM identifies itself as "inspired" by melee, meaning it either bears similarities in design or concept, which it does.

 

[Fortress]

but definitely not a COMPLETELY different environment..

No, it's pretty much a completely different environment. You take one character from Melee and tell me how they're performing in tournament play compared to PM. Link generally performs better, Puff generally performs worse, Bowser stacks up much better, Cap. Falcon doesn't shine as brightly, and so on.

Similar mechanics a similar environment does not make. There are more factors at play than you take into consideration.

 

[Drodeka]

No, it's pretty much a completely different environment. You take one character from Melee and tell me how they're performing in tournament play compared to PM. Link generally performs better, Puff generally performs worse, Bowser stacks up much better, Cap. Falcon doesn't shine as brightly, and so on.

Similar mechanics a similar environment does not make. There are more factors at play than you take into consideration.

Marth is still doing great, Fox and Falco remain incredibly powerful and popular characters, Jigglypuff has literally no changes and is generally considered to have worse matchups, yet retains a high tier spot.
Play Sheik against Jiggly and tell me it doesn't feel like melee. You'd be lying.

 

[Fortress]

Marth is still doing great, Fox and Falco remain incredibly powerful and popular characters

Even so, they're not uncontested at the top, as the gap between the characters in terms of tournament domination have been bridged quite successfully. Though those characters preform well by tradition, it doesn't make it any less of a different game for them, or for the characters fighting against them. Matchups are approached differently, strategies adjust accordingly. You don't play MarthxLink the same way you would in Melee.

Jigglypuff has literally no changes and is generally considered to have worse matchups, yet retains a high tier spot

Though tier lists at this early of a life in 3.0 (before any sort of finalization, for that matter) should probably be disregarded until the metagame has more concretely developed, 'Puff has traditionally placed low. Not sure where you're coming up with that.

Play Sheik against Jiggly and tell me it doesn't feel like melee. You'd be lying.

Feels like a different game, bruh. Throw angles are changed, stages accommodate different types of play, and the viability of Sheilda makes it a totally different matchup. It doesn't feel anything like Melee. Either that, or I'm a really good liar.

 

[Drodeka]

Even so, they're not uncontested at the top, as the gap between the characters in terms of tournament domination have been bridged quite successfully. Though those characters preform well by tradition, it doesn't make it any less of a different game for them, or for the characters fighting against them. Matchups are approached differently, strategies adjust accordingly. You don't play MarthxLink the same way you would in Melee.

No, you don't, because Link has a very large amount of changes, mostly buffs, that greatly affect his gameplay. Never did I say that Link was similar to melee or that you should fight him as you would in melee.

Though tier lists at this early of a life in 3.0 (before any sort of finalization, for that matter) should probably be disregarded until the metagame has more concretely developed, 'Puff has traditionally placed low. Not sure where you're coming up with that.

I already said Jigglypuff is considered to have worse matchups, which is the leading reason she is considered to be worse than melee.
And http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/

Feels like a different game, bruh. Throw angles are changed, stages accommodate different types of play, and the viability of Sheilda makes it a totally different matchup. It doesn't feel anything like Melee. Either that, or I'm a really good liar.

If you are just going to point out the few differences in the game, then I could begin pointing out all the similarities. Such as: Their entire moveset, the physics of both characters, many of the stages you could fight on that were in melee, almost all of the advanced techniques available, damage numbers and many many more.

I don't know why you're trying so hard to defend this point. All you're saying is Project M is a new game, and all I'm saying is that it's similar to melee. Both of these things are true, but you just keep implying I'm wrong and not presenting any substantial evidence to support yourself.

You're either trolling, or stuck with a one-track mind, and either way, whatever.
EDIT: Also, you're the same guy that basically said I don't need to make Project M tutorials because we already have a tutorial done in melee.
Practice what you preach.

 

[Fortress]

EDIT: Also, you're the same guy that basically said I don't need to make Project M tutorials because we already have a tutorial done in melee.
Practice what you preach.

My first post in that thread was:

Spoiler

I mean, we already have this one here:

But I do like your idea of on-screen overlays displaying the inputs and whatnot. Could be handy, and commentary would be a lot better than text (using both together would probably be good).

My personal Wavedashing training 'regiment' was to pick Mario, go to Battlefield, and do 'laps'. Start at one of the bottom corners, wavedash across to the other one, jump and waveland across each of the platforms, drop after the last one, and repeat.

Pretty sure I remember saying that you had some neat ideas to expand upon the tutorial.

No, you don't, because Link has a very large amount of changes, mostly buffs, that greatly affect his gameplay. Never did I say that Link was similar to melee or that you should fight him as you would in melee.

Thought that was, you know, heavily implied with the insistence that the games are pretty much the same and could be played in the same manner.

I already said Jigglypuff is considered to have worse matchups, which is the leading reason she is considered to be worse than melee.
And http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/

If you're going to throw that thread at me, please actually comb through it and read it. Community-made tier lists are garbage. Tournament results speak for themselves in regards to character placement.

Spoiler

Couple of things about that community made tier list.

a) It was open to anyone regardless of skill level. As completely full of myself as I am, I do not for a moment believe that my *opinion* on this game, however informed or misinformed, counts for jack. It's why I'm content to contribute, poke people, discuss and learn (it has helped me uncover techs and improve my own game) but I absolutely refuse to make a definitive tier list. It is not my place, it is not the time, and even the people who are good at this game know approximately somewhere between jack and **** about eventual dominant strategies and final shape of the tier list. Please remember people actually thought Mario was the 5th best character in Melee and that R.O.B was high tier in Brawl at first (no doubt because of CPU beating Ken). Letting people of all skill levels vote without any sort of screening process is just asking for statistical garbage.

b) Taking tournament placement into account is also going to miss a lot of crucial data. Why? Seven characters, i.e. about 15% of the metagame, have only existed for TWO MONTHS. You are not going to be able to glean an accurate picture of how well Icies, Oli, Roy, Samus, Yoshi, Mewtwo or Kirby place in tournies because for the majority of the game's lifetime, they have not existed. This dramatically skews the results against them, since they haven't even been given any time to breathe, or be discovered by dedicated or high-level mains.

As unreliable as pure theorycrafting speculation is, the stats right now just reflect existing or widely accepted community perceptions of a relatively nascent meta. "Oli is trash because boring", "Foxco da bess", "Deeds has no neutral", etc. Regardless of whether I agree or disagree with any of these statements, it's not much to go on at the moment.

tl;dr we really need a lot more data points before we start going for some kind of numerical rubric. And even then I'm pretty sure it should be formed by a) people who know what they're doing and b) be a match-up chart rather than a bell curve of relative placement. P:M is new, but the design is very focused and heavily takes techs into account, unlike any other Smash game, so tier gaps will be much smaller almost by default.

(This is part of the reason why I think Jiggs and Ganon flag ... Their designs are overall poorer, weren't the 'happy accident' of Fox or Marth nor the deliberate planned-out kit that Snake received. They just hover with a half-baked playstyle that their makers did not even conceive and they suffer for it.)

If you are just going to point out the few differences in the game, then I could begin pointing out all the similarities. Such as: Their entire moveset, the physics of both characters, many of the stages you could fight on that were in melee, almost all of the advanced techniques available, damage numbers and many many more.

I am going to point out the differences. The thread is titled 'What Can/Can't Sheik do vs Melee'. Finding differences was implied. Or hadn't you forgotten? If I have to tl;dr this ****, then let me wrap it up neatly for you;

Sheik: cannot get guaranteed chaingrab with d-throw, can rely on Zelda more consistently.

Read as: It's 4:18 AM, I'm sleepy, I want to continue watching Clone Wars.

 

[Drodeka]

Yeah, it's late.
Sheik has one moveset difference from melee and now has wall clings, redevelop your strategy accordingly.
Try new things against new characters, and continue using what works because it works.

So here's the conclusion, the thread is called "What sheik can can't do vs melee".
You described what sheik can't do, and I described what sheik can do. That is literally what happened.
We suck.

 

[Drodeka]

Sheik can do basically everything she could in Melee

If you were comfortable with Melee Sheik, then PM Sheik will be little more than adjusting to the new throw angles, DI traps, roster viability, and stage viability (the latter to a lesser extent; Sheik has the tools available to have a solid performance on pretty much any stage).

This. So what you were saying in this post is that Sheik may be the same character, but you should adapt your play to thrive in the new environment.
This is also exactly what I've been trying to get at, and I'll admit I didn't convey my message very well at first.
EDIT: Shep was never a melee player, so he just wanted to know what Sheik was capable of in Melee that she isn't capable of now, which I think is only the throw changes. Aside from that, she's only received wall clings and of course the brawl changes that are engine-wide.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Dro, you're arguing over a perceived tone change. With the wrong person.

Fortress is a blunt prick. But a usually right blunt prick. Get used to it.

Also Sheik in P:M ****s up 40 characters instead of 26. /input

 

[Fortress]

Sheik has one moveset difference from melee and now has wall clings.

DI traps, more throw mindgames, way ahead of you in that department already.

We suck.

'We'?

This. So what you were saying in this post is that Sheik may be the same character, but you should adapt your play to thrive in the new environment.

I'm not sure how it could be any more clear than that. The environment that Sheik has been placed in will change how you go about using her toolkit.

Fortress is a blunt prick. But a usually right blunt prick. Get used to it.

I'm usually not right, just argumentative. I have no clue why I hear this as much as I do.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm usually not right, just argumentative. I have no clue why I hear this as much as I do.

STFU, you usually agree with me, which makes you right.

 

[Fortress]

STFU, you usually agree with me, which makes you right.

I'm going to have to ask you what you think it means when I'm usually wrong, and I usually agree with you.

 

[Drodeka]

I guess I'm just a dippy.
What are her DI traps? Shep and I would both like to know.

Also, I don't think either of us could technically be right, since we were both just giving opinions, but I would put you as more right than me, because at first I misspoke, and then I got salty.

EDIT: I wish Wi-Fi battles were more dependable, because I'm bored and I know there are players awake right now lol.
Guilty pleasure, I actually kind of enjoy arguing on forums, because people tend to explain themselves more and it's almost never "heated" as it would be in real life, so I'm fine with Fortress being argumentative.
I mean, at least he's good at it.

 

[Fortress]

I guess I'm just a dippy.
What are her DI traps? Shep and I would both like to know.

Down throw your opponent and condition them to DI away from your chain grab, then back throw them so that they DI 'away' which will put them right back into grab range. All the while tech chasing them. You can hackysack using Sheik with DI mindgames.

 

[Drodeka]

Down throw your opponent and condition them to DI away from your chain grab, then back throw them so that they DI 'away' which will put them right back into grab range. All the while tech chasing them. You can hackysack using Sheik with DI mindgames.

Okay, I thought you meant something like her jabstring couldn't be DI'd out of against walls, like Young Link in melee.

 

[Fortress]

EDIT: I wish Wi-Fi battles were more dependable, because I'm bored and I know there are players awake right now lol.
Guilty pleasure, I actually kind of enjoy arguing on forums, because people tend to explain themselves more and it's almost never "heated" as it would be in real life, so I'm fine with Fortress being argumentative.
I mean, at least he's good at it.

I throw fits like a child and raise my voice when I argue in real life, and people generally dislike speaking with me.

WHY DO YOU PEOPLE KEEP ACCEPTING ME.

I wouldn't say I'm 'good' at it, just that I tend to be the last person still running their mouth.

@ Hungry Headcrab You know it to be true.

 

[Drodeka]

I throw fits like a child and raise my voice when I argue in real life, and people generally dislike speaking with me.

WHY DO YOU PEOPLE KEEP ACCEPTING ME.

I wouldn't say I'm 'good' at it, just that I tend to be the last person still running their mouth.

@ Hungry Headcrab You know it to be true.

*Running their fingers

I'll accept you because you aren't a ****, just wanted to get your point across, which I respect. At first I thought you were a ****, but then you weren't a ****.

EDIT: I didn't know smash censored things. I was using a four letter word for male genitalia that starts with D.

 

[Fortress]

*Running their fingers

I'll accept you because you aren't a ****, just wanted to get your point across, which I respect. At first I thought you were a ****, but then you weren't a ****.

I'm pretty sure I'm one of the more prickish people on the PM boards. At least, I think so? You people will see that I'm a **** eventually, then you'll look like the fools.

@Strong Bad Back my italics and I up, here. You know there's evil in my heart.

 

[Drodeka]

Or, we'll just laugh because we either agree with you, or don't disagree with you.
Either way, you don't seem like the guy that would be inherently wrong about things.
EDIT: I screwed up twice. Damn.

 

[Fortress]

Either way, you don't seem like the guy that wouldn't be inherently wrong about things.

Really, though, I don't know why I hear things like this. I've never been to a tournament, major or otherwise, have only my experience in Nowhere, Montana to draw from, and know most of what I do because of countless hours of reading on Smash and watching Smash. I've no actual experience.

I'm calling my credibility into question.

 

[Drodeka]

Really, though, I don't know why I hear things like this. I've never been to a tournament, major or otherwise, have only my experience in Nowhere, Montana to draw from, and know most of what I do because of countless hours of reading on Smash and watching Smash. I've no actual experience.

I'm calling my credibility into question.

It's not about the experience, it's about the knowledge. I have attended exactly one tournament, an infinite percent increase over yours, yet you have roughly seventeen times my post count, which means you have much more experience in the community, regardless others experience competitively.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I throw fits like a child and raise my voice when I argue in real life, and people generally dislike speaking with me.

WHY DO YOU PEOPLE KEEP ACCEPTING ME.

I wouldn't say I'm 'good' at it, just that I tend to be the last person still running their mouth.

@ Hungry Headcrab You know it to be true.

I know it to be true.

Don't listen to this man, people. He's a menace, and, in his own words, "not credible."

Anywho, this thread sure is off-topic, amirite?

 

[Fortress]

Anywho, this thread sure is off-topic, amirite?

I'm not generally correct, so I don't know if I should agree or disagree with you, because I want you to be right.

The thread is off-topic, but I'm usually incorrect, so if I'm correct in assuming I'm incorrect and I agree that you're correct, that would make you incorrect.

 

[Drodeka]

So off topic. But, considering we've technically covered every character difference Sheik has, there isn't much left to say on the topic. This is one of those threads that gets a direct answer and then disappears, the only difference being we've made it take much longer to disappear, and created a wall of posts that need never be viewed by others.