What character has the highest potential when the game is played perfectly?

[Nixernator]

Wouldn't it be Marth? What with the counter, and DS/Dancing blade. Also large hitboxes and good spacing.

 

[Kitamerby]

Lucario.

Roll roll roll roll rolll Aura Sphere roll roll roll roll roll roll roll...

 

[kackamee]

It would be Pit for sure. Look at his arrow possibilities. I think it's either IC's, Pit, Olimar, Snake, MK or Diddy Kong. Maybe Peach.
Olimar perfect: know every single Pikmin you have, and use hem corresponding to their color

 

[solecalibur]

iceclimbers hands down some ice climber user 3 stocked 0%

 

[k00paSmAsHeR]

wario IMO, given the fact that he is sometimes condidered the best in the game due to unpridicable moves, Amazing final smash, and enhanced abilities in that mode! (and other things, but those are some lol)

 

[mountain_tiger]

I'm going to go with either Olimar or the Ice Climbers. With Olimar, if someone knows what Pikmin to use in every situation perfectly, and makes sure never to get knocked off stage... he'd be a beast. With the Ice Climbers, we all know that when you face them, it's a case of 'Get grabbed and you're ****ed.' Perfect IC players would most certainly find a way to force a grab on you, and then you may as well give up.

 

[Pr0phetic]

This is a good ques. I'd say between MK and Marth, Snake aswell. More later.

 

[Red Arremer]

...

...

...

Here's a new idea:

Only post if your account is...2 years old or older

k, I won't post my actual thoughts on the topic then. I won't whip out my '05er account either.

 

[RATED]

IMO : Snake, Olimar, Wolf

 

[~CPU~]

probably ganon since hes supposed to be perfect he can tech chase you with choke all day and then finsih you off with down-b fsmash or short hop fair

 

[noahbaby94]

probably ganon since hes supposed to be perfect he can tech chase you with choke all day and then finsih you off with down-b fsmash or short hop fair

Are You Kidding me so many people compleately shut ganon down.

 

[smashkng]

Clearly Meta Knight.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I don't know who for sure but I can tell you its not Diddy.

Everyone would be able to perfect shield his bananas.

By this logic everyone would be able to perfect shield every hit and the game would be reduced to grabs..which wouldn't ever be landed because people would know when to perfect shield to spot dodge.

Diddy has an infinite on (potentially) every character in the game. AKA the single nana infinite. So hard though that so far zero players have used even the single nana lock in tournament (a few players have reported landing the lock for 2-3 iterations before screwing up).

 

[Scott!]

It was said earlier that a top priority is not taking damage. By that logic, I doubt that the ICs could be the best at perfect level, just because I think a perfect opponent would be able to at least hit Nana.

I think we had this discussion before, except it was like two perfect supercomputers rather than people, but the same idea holds. To win, the character needs to punish perfect-shielding or at least not be punished when their move is perfect-shielded. I wonder how perfect we're talking though. Does perfect play mean making the best choice in every situation frame by frame? Or is there a deeper anticipation involved? Like, do both players know exactly how the match will end just by anticipating their and the opponent's best moves in every situation, and so both act towards having an outcome that leads to their victory? It's like chess grandmasters who see all possible outcomes of their moves and their opponent's moves and can predict the game's outcome under many different circumstances. That would be pretty hard to predict in Smash, especially with the random element with Pikmin pulling, Peach's turnips, Waddle Dees, and Luigi's side-b. But a perfect player could account for those possibilities. Jeez, the implications of what perfect could mean here...

 

[solecalibur]

when ppl say metaknight you have to relize metaknight is good in a way you can get away with messing up just something to take into consideration

 

[☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆]

wario, cuz of his invincible frames on fsmash -_- he could frame perfect fsmash into any attack that wud give him any knock back

mk, becuase of his cape he could be invis/incible forever and his edgegaurd skills... ud be gimped before the anounncer says 1

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Ice Climbers.

Does it really need explaining?

 

[Frown]

Imagine a Peach pulling up bob-ombs only.

Amazing final smash

What's a fiinal smash?

 

[King Funk]

Ice Climbers --> perfect chaingrabs

 

[goodoldganon]

Ganondorf

One over-b and he could infinite you and I think besides for 5 characters he has at least 1 guaranteed followup on for the kill.

 

[stingers]

spadefox I'm sure you're legit, 100% more legit then everyone else posting here

the fact you have a 2005 account shows that my post was probably correct

 

[Phantomwake]

I am guessing that frame perfect ice climbers would be able to de-synch and then alternate grabs that would make spot dodging useless because if you dodge popo the de-synched nana will grab you on the frame you lose invincibility, the next question is whether ic's can chain grab through frame perfect mash-outs.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Diddy has the same deal as Ice Climbers.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I honestly think it would be Pit. Assuming frame perfection, he can have arrows looping at you during his approaches (multiple arrows even), making powershields meaningless. He can make multiple arrows charge at you in a tight window (too tight to do anything even after a PS) and grab you during the lag. Reflectors also have lag so he'd be punishing that too. And with the arrows spaced correctly, he can have two come at you to prevent PS's, and have another lagging behind a little to punish spotdodges (rolling away might be safe, but you'll run out of room and he's still looping the arrows).

The strongest candidates for being the best in frame perfect play are those who have independant projectiles imo (projectiles that act seperately from the player, allowing the player to make movements while the projectile is still out)

 

[Shadow13]

if every character was player perfectly without any blemishes, they would all be perfectly equal.

otherwise, they wouldnt be perfect.

yeah..... i agree with that guy

 

[stingers]

Dark Sonic, that's an interesting point. That might be it.

 

[Mecakoto]

Without human error or reflex as a variable...

Every single attack will be perfect shielded. Everything will be foreseen and reacted to accordingly. Stage-spikes will never happen and recovery will be perfected, as will gimping. Basically, we have level 99 computers on our hands. Now, if level 9s can do what they can now, imagine something 11 times better.

For this reason, I choose Olimar or Snake. Both of their kill moves come out the fastest and thus have the best overall chance of landing.

Or, each match will be a 3 stock stalemate because every singe hit, including multi-hit attacks like Meta's tornado will be perfect shielded.

 

[Chia_Pet]

I agree with Mecakoto. Snake, can be a good character at some practice to a feel. His desonated Land mines can be really useful for those characters that like run away or use guerilla warfare tactics.

 

[JayBee]

would sonic be up there with his ability to close and escape? his side b has invincibility frames at the release of it, so he could use it to counter all attempts to attack if done perfect every time, and a side b hit is a combo automatically. id think he could dodge and run from most things, then side b invincibility frames counter your attacks, hows that sound?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Many of you guys are making points about killing/damage racking, but have missed on vital counterpoint to both. FRAME PERFECTION.

In frame perfect play, so long as a move does not come out in 1 frame IT WILL BE COUNTERED. The method of counter will vary on the move (in perfect play, you can spotdodge/roll to avoid multihits, and powershield single hits). This means that the ONLY moves that will ever land on an opponent are those that come out in 1 frame, or those that litterally have no counter (which was my Pit arrow example, where every escape option is covered). It is this reason that characters like Olimar or Snake cannot be the best in perfect play. They are fast, but they are not 1 frame kinda fast, nor do they have any guranteed setups on powershield. Characters like Wolf/Samus/Bowser/Marth (who have invincible attacks starting from frame 1) and Pit/Falco/Fox/Samus (who all have projectiles that can IMMEDIATELY be followed up with something else) are the best candidates. These characters all of strategies that are still feasible in perfect play (mostly camping lol). Out of the group it's probably safe to say that Samus and Bowser would not be the best (since they have slow movement so they'd be easily Zoned even in perfect play).

Falco has no lag on lasers, but also doesn't really have anything guranteed he can do if they're just powershielded. He's not taking damage, but he's also not DEALING damage. Eventually the opponent will close in on him and lasers will be unsafe (assuming perfect play), he has no method to prevent this as his defensive attacks are all slower than 1 frame (thus they will be shined/invincible up B'd/powershield->counter'd). Marth Fox and Wolf all suffer the same problem.

All that leaves is Pit, who's multiple arrow loops would be the perfect offense in perfect play. Where you can space looping arrows to follow directly behind each other (or whatever distance you want really), while still being able to advance with Pit himself by making use of turn around animations (so you don't move backwards) and dashes covered by your arrows (so you move forward), in order to slowly make your advance. Pit's arrows luckily do not respond to tilting the control stick a small amount just as much as they would for a large tilt, meaning you can even control Pit's walking speed for fine tuning your spacing. If you can come up with a counter strategy for having 3-4 arrows looping at specific intervals (the first 2 extremly close together so that you can't powershield them both, and a third spaced behind just enough to catch you in the vulnerability of a spotdodge), then I'd love to hear it. And before you say "invincible moves"

Marth's up B has too much lag (Pit will SDI on every possible frame so he lands right next to Marth AFTER being launched. SDI is too good like that) and Pit would punish him in his lag by grabbing on the last frame of lag, holding for as many frames as allowed, throwing, and having his looped arrows come back to do damage to him. In this way Pit would out damage him and then camp and win by time out.

Wolf's shine would hit Pit, but it would also reflect the arrows and suffer it's reflect lag. Pit then outdamages wolf with a throw (can't Pit chainthrow wolf with f-throws for a while? If not, d-throw does more damage than shine anyway).

Samus up B would be SDI'd out of and punished.

Bowser up B would be punished on hit if hit at 0%, which is all that matters because Pit can then get the percentage lead with grab->throw->looped arrow hit.

So yeah...do I get a cookie?

 

[BloodBird]

My bid is Lucas, he is just an All-Around character.
He has healing capabilities
He has Strong Smashes
He has great airal attacks
He has good get back recovering which doubles as an attack (pk thunder)
He has elemental attacks (lightning, fire, ice)
and lastly, although it isn't always the best final smash, Lucas's will kill if hit consecutively.

Of all the characters Lucas has the most potential to kick ***, and no Ike doesn't because he is way too slow to have enough of an impact.

Sidenote: in lag play Lucas sucks because his pk thunder cannot be used properly.

 

[KevinM]

You have to look at a character that can abuse the edge game, that's how it works guys. That's how it was decided in Melee and there was a CRAP load of testing to figure that out.

In my opinion it WOULD be Metaknight or GaW.

There planking in frame perfect play would be unpunishable, they have an answer for every option of stopping them from getting them off the ledge.

Then again with the 70 grab rule that kinda ruins it..

 

[BloodBird]

Metaknight is so out, he has way too many suicide attacks, his tornado, flying, spinning sword and invisible jump attack all leave him with the inability to recover and therefore make him very unstable.

 

[djm111]

I would think that a perfectly desynched Ice Climbers would be, because with both of them alternating their attacks perfectly you wouldn't even be able to punish their cooldown and startup lag.

 

[Hylian]

By this logic everyone would be able to perfect shield every hit and the game would be reduced to grabs..which wouldn't ever be landed because people would know when to perfect shield to spot dodge.

Diddy has an infinite on (potentially) every character in the game. AKA the single nana infinite. So hard though that so far zero players have used even the single nana lock in tournament (a few players have reported landing the lock for 2-3 iterations before screwing up).

I've used it twice in tournament actually when I used to play diddy after it was first discovered.

Once against a Falco all the way across FD into a dsmash kill, the other against a GW on rainbow cruise on the wall on the ship.

But then I dropped diddy.

 

[☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆]

Many of you guys are making points about killing/damage racking, but have missed on vital counterpoint to both. FRAME PERFECTION.

In frame perfect play, so long as a move does not come out in 1 frame IT WILL BE COUNTERED. The method of counter will vary on the move (in perfect play, you can spotdodge/roll to avoid multihits, and powershield single hits). This means that the ONLY moves that will ever land on an opponent are those that come out in 1 frame, or those that litterally have no counter (which was my Pit arrow example, where every escape option is covered). It is this reason that characters like Olimar or Snake cannot be the best in perfect play. They are fast, but they are not 1 frame kinda fast, nor do they have any guranteed setups on powershield. Characters like Wolf/Samus/Bowser/Marth (who have invincible attacks starting from frame 1) and Pit/Falco/Fox/Samus (who all have projectiles that can IMMEDIATELY be followed up with something else) are the best candidates. These characters all of strategies that are still feasible in perfect play (mostly camping lol). Out of the group it's probably safe to say that Samus and Bowser would not be the best (since they have slow movement so they'd be easily Zoned even in perfect play).

Falco has no lag on lasers, but also doesn't really have anything guranteed he can do if they're just powershielded. He's not taking damage, but he's also not DEALING damage. Eventually the opponent will close in on him and lasers will be unsafe (assuming perfect play), he has no method to prevent this as his defensive attacks are all slower than 1 frame (thus they will be shined/invincible up B'd/powershield->counter'd). Marth Fox and Wolf all suffer the same problem.

All that leaves is Pit, who's multiple arrow loops would be the perfect offense in perfect play. Where you can space looping arrows to follow directly behind each other (or whatever distance you want really), while still being able to advance with Pit himself by making use of turn around animations (so you don't move backwards) and dashes covered by your arrows (so you move forward), in order to slowly make your advance. Pit's arrows luckily do not respond to tilting the control stick a small amount just as much as they would for a large tilt, meaning you can even control Pit's walking speed for fine tuning your spacing. If you can come up with a counter strategy for having 3-4 arrows looping at specific intervals (the first 2 extremly close together so that you can't powershield them both, and a third spaced behind just enough to catch you in the vulnerability of a spotdodge), then I'd love to hear it. And before you say "invincible moves"

Marth's up B has too much lag (Pit will SDI on every possible frame so he lands right next to Marth AFTER being launched. SDI is too good like that) and Pit would punish him in his lag by grabbing on the last frame of lag, holding for as many frames as allowed, throwing, and having his looped arrows come back to do damage to him. In this way Pit would out damage him and then camp and win by time out.

Wolf's shine would hit Pit, but it would also reflect the arrows and suffer it's reflect lag. Pit then outdamages wolf with a throw (can't Pit chainthrow wolf with f-throws for a while? If not, d-throw does more damage than shine anyway).

Samus up B would be SDI'd out of and punished.

Bowser up B would be punished on hit if hit at 0%, which is all that matters because Pit can then get the percentage lead with grab->throw->looped arrow hit.

So yeah...do I get a cookie?

good in theory, but SDI in frame perfect play is NOT that good i know this cuz i have hacked my wii and tryed messing around with di and sdi(when u say luanched i assume its a hit where pit is at high damge, also as no GOOD marth wud up b someone at 0 percent -_-) and at low damage u can already di back to marth before he hits the ground.... and in frame perfect play pit wudnt be given a chance to fire off more than 1-2 arrows which could be powershielded andin frame perfect play a character could merely move out of the trajectory of the arrowswhich all wud be moveing in the same pattern so it wud be easy to go by all 4 (i believe thats the max it might be 5 though) or even through the loops of all 4, also in frame perfect play, powershield grab beats most if not all moves even the whorenado (the most ridiculously high priority move ever) so.... yeah none of pits moves are fast enough or have high enough priority to beat a perfectshield grab...

its anyones game really, at frame perfect play its all mindgames all day

 

[Naucitos]

Squirtle and zss have frame one jabs, zss' has more range on hers, wolf has his reflector, thats a nice argument for pit, but what stops you from powershielding multiple arrows?

 

[SMAAAASH!]

Ganondorf.

 

[JUDGE]

i think it's mk just because of hi infinte cape glitch

 

[Dark Sonic]

good in theory, but SDI in frame perfect play is NOT that good i know this cuz i have hacked my wii and tryed messing around with di and sdi(when u say luanched i assume its a hit where pit is at high damge, also as no GOOD marth wud up b someone at 0 percent -_-) and at low damage u can already di back to marth before he hits the ground.... and in frame perfect play pit wudnt be given a chance to fire off more than 1-2 arrows which could be powershielded andin frame perfect play a character could merely move out of the trajectory of the arrowswhich all wud be moveing in the same pattern so it wud be easy to go by all 4 (i believe thats the max it might be 5 though) or even through the loops of all 4, also in frame perfect play, powershield grab beats most if not all moves even the whorenado (the most ridiculously high priority move ever) so.... yeah none of pits moves are fast enough or have high enough priority to beat a perfectshield grab...

its anyones game really, at frame perfect play its all mindgames all day

All Pit needs is that one hit and then just to play frame perfect defense all day. You don't even NEED ledge games, because Marth doesn't have any 1 frame moves (and thus every attack he does will be powershielded on reaction). Suprisingly, frame perfect play has NO mindgames because powershielding only requires that you have a single frame of anticipation (i.e., requires that the other move is not instantaneous).

Pit will NEVER get to high damage because Marth has no means of getting him there. EVERY match in perfect play will be time out because there are no reliable means of killing. Unless your character has an infinite that can be landed against an opponent who has 1 frame reaction time, THERE WILL BE NO KILLS. The only combos in the game will be those that are SDI proof i.e throw->hit (since throws cannot be SDI'd).

Also, you far underestimate the power of SDI my friend. The correct SDI for getting the absolute most horizontal distance is:
up and away, away, down and away, away, up and away (since the game will not let you SDI in the same direction on consecutive frames). The majority of moves have 4 frames+ of hitlag, meaning the amount of distance traveled in such time will be MASSIVE.

Also, you forgot the most vital detail of the arrow loops. The SPACING of the arrows. The arrows would follow directly behind each other, making it only possible to powershield THE FIRST ONE. THe second one would HAVE to be shielded or spotdodged, and if you shielded, Pit got a free grab. The third arrow is for SPECIFICALLY if you spotdodge, or even jump and airdodge, as Pit can aim the arrows freely (that and airdodges have enough lag for Pit to catch even after his grab lag is over). "Moving out of the trajectory of the arrows" just puts you in the air, which is a disadvantageous position in perfect play due to your 2 frames of default landing lag that you have no control over. The next time you land, YOU WILL BE HIT. Even if you attack through me, at such low percentages that means I SDI a couple of times and hit you back. We'd repeat this until my arrows come back around and hit you, ultimately giving me my damage lead to go powershield camp for 8 minutes.


Firing the actual arrows would be a simple task. Pit can mearly fire two at the very begining of the match (the first and third of the required setup), and the third by ledge camping, using the arrows as a shield for his return.