What did items ever do to you?

[bobson]

One particular thing I've noticed since I started using the friend finder is that it seems that most people on this board despise items with such vehemence that you'd think their wife and children were killed when a party ball dropped a bunch of bob-ombs on them. I'm not talking about all-explosives-on-high type item use, as it's easy to understand why someone wouldn't want that type of chaos; I speak of reasonable item use: low spawn rate, with the bull**** items like golden hammers disabled.

"They spawn randomly" doesn't seem enough to justify the overwhelming hostility to me. In an average match, their spawn positions won't predominately favor any one opponent, and with the items that can easily change the outcome of the match turned off, you won't lose because a Pokeball spawned on top of your enemy while he was camping.

Most of them don't take that much skill to use, true, but most of them don't take that much skill to dodge, either. The real issue with items is the obscured risk:reward ratio for things like Pokeballs or fans, but, as I said, with those disabled, this isn't a problem. It shouldn't be hard to list "items on, ISP rules" in your preferences much like most list "neutral stages only" now.

Or is it just a communal thing, like how everyone hates non-neutral stages because it became normal to hate non-neutral stages sometime in the past?

 

[Grunt]

They ***** my mom.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164675

 

[Frown]

People don't use items on 1v1 stock battles. And that is very common among the people on these boards.

 

[bobson]

People don't use items on 1v1 stock battles. And that is very common among the people on these boards.

Yes, that's what I said in the first sentence. My question is why.

 

[Foxtrotter]

People just really, really don't like items because of their randomness factor. They want to be in control, so that the game relies more on skill than whether or not you get a capsule/beam sword/bumper/whatever.

Also, fans are dangerous. .__.

 

[Iron Thorn]

Simply put, items allow noobs to win because of luck. They're not fair.

 

[Talazala]

Someone else will probably come along some time soon and write some intricate explaination. Basically, we want a match where luck does not alter the result too much. Most items will help a character get a slight advantage, no matter how lousy it may seem, and people don't like that slight advantage that has nothing to do with their skill level.

What items are acceptable?

banana. mr.saturn. I can't think of any other items that don't give too much of an advantage to any character right now.

A banana and Mr. Saturn is just awkward. So we get rid of it. Hence the absence of items

 

[MarKO X]

Because people want a Street Fighter-esque game without playing Street Fighter.

You wanna know what's funny? Ninja, aka Gray Fox, from MGS, has this one saying about weapons when you fight against him in that game: "Hand to hand. It is the basic of all combat. Only a fool trusts his life to a weapon." And yet, he comes out of an assist trophy. Hillarious.

Personally, I can play with items and don't mind playing with items. And after having seen certain campy characters (TL, Wolf) and certain beast characters (Snake, MK), I think that competitive item play is the way to go sometimes. At the same time, it's not to say that those characters still can't be the way they are with the items on... people used to think that with Fox, Falco, and Matrh in Melee around my way until they realized the truth.

Another truth, if next year's Evo has items in play, I'm soooooooo going. (possibly)

 

[MPH Deku]

Or is it just a communal thing, like how everyone hates non-neutral stages because it became normal to hate non-neutral stages sometime in the past?

This.

It also seems to be standard to hate Pit, wish Sonic was never in this game, and hate the songs that I like.

 

[bobson]

People just really, really don't like items because of their randomness factor. They want to be in control, so that the game relies more on skill than whether or not you get a capsule/beam sword/bumper/whatever.

Also, fans are dangerous. .__.

You say that as if it takes no skill to use an item well. Contrary to the viewpoint of that other person, an idiot will not win if they get an item under reasonable rules because an idiot will use the item idiotically. Hell, you'll probably be able to bait them into using it and then use it against them.

Someone else will probably come along some time soon and write some intricate explaination. Basically, we want a match where luck does not alter the result too much. Most items will help a character get a slight advantage, no matter how lousy it may seem, and people don't like that slight advantage that has nothing to do with their skill level.

Arguably, slight unrelated-to-skill advantages already exist and are allowed. If you use Metaknight, for example, you will have an advantage over Captain Falcon which has nothing to do with your skill; you're simply using the better character. Similarly, characters with spammable projectiles will get a non-skill advantage if you're on a stage where projectiles can be spammed easily. The thing is, like spam, non-broken items will only be effective when used skillfully. It's easy to pick up a star rod that spawned a few feet away from you, but it's much harder to use it to influence the match.

 

[Foxtrotter]

You say that as if it takes no skill to use an item well. Contrary to the viewpoint of that other person, an idiot will not win if they get an item under reasonable rules because an idiot will use the item idiotically. Hell, you'll probably be able to bait them into using it and then use it against them.

"As if it takes no skill to use an item well"? How'd you get that from my post?

I just said that people do not like items because of their randomosity, for lack of a better word. A golden hammer can spawn next to Sonic on Battlefield and Gannondorf will be running like a scared little chick. A Smart Bomb can spawn right in front of a Lucario just as it releases an Aura Sphere. An Assist Trophy can completely mess up the game's flow in terms of who's winning, eg Isaac's golden hand move pushing an already off-stage Pit to its death.

This.

It also seems to be standard to hate Pit, wish Sonic was never in this game, and hate the songs that I like.

Oo I did not notice that.

Yes, I hate Pit, want Megaman to be in, not Sonic, and really hate all songs.

/saracasm

Spoiler

I main Pit, like Sonic because it encouraged a friend to play, and I'm open to any and all songs. 'Cept country. Eek.

People are like ducks. They follow whatever lead they're given.

 

[Sgt. Baker]

Fans ruin my day

 

[GI Josh]

Most of us on here are competitive people, so we prefer to have an uninterupted fight(the interuption would be items). But when I'm playing just for fun I'm ok with items

 

[Snail]

Meh, I don't really dislike them. I play with items off because everyone does :/ And I don't like to have the results of a 1v1 battle altered by random stuff like items.

In a free for all with 3 or 4 players, I don't mind though. Skills mean nothing there, anyway.

 

[lcampoy8]

they kill me

 

[ARX-7 Arbalest]

i only do no items if its 1v1

if its with a group of 4+ people, its always items because then its just played for fun and lolz

nothing creates a lolcano more than someone getting a waluigi AT an watchin the curb stomp of duum

 

[SuSa]

they ***** our churches and burnt our woman D:

 

[SirKibble]

Once, I threw a Party Ball, and stood under it waiting for the items. My brother was playing as Sheik, I didn't even notice him getting a few needles ready. When the Party Ball let out all Bob-ombs, he let the needles fly.

That's when I realized I hate items.

But seriously, people just don't like them because they add randomness to the game. For starters, they can spawn at any time, in any place. It's not very fair if a Hammer drops right next to one player while their opponent is clear across the stage.

And then items like Pokeballs and Assist Trophies are extremely random as well. Say my friend and I both manage to get our hands on a Pokeball. Well, we both throw them, and now we've each got an ally to fight alongside us. Sounds fair, till you account for the fact that he's got a Goldeen and I've got a Groudon.

Now let's take Smash Balls and Dragoon Parts. Aside from being extremely powerful, these items seem to have a random stickiness. What do I mean by that? Well, let's say I grab a Dragoon Part, just a single one. My bro comes up with a fan, smacks me once, and the part drops. Well, that sucks for me, but maybe that's just the way it goes. What's horribly wrong with this, is suddenly this part is so attached to him, nothing short of a Falcon Punch is going to cause him to drop it. Same thing can happen with Smash Balls.

To sum up, just about every item can and often does give an unfair advantage to one player. So for the most part, people prefer to turn them off to make the game more fair and skill-based.

I should note, however, that I usually play with items on, though on a Low frequency. So I'm not one of those people who despises items with their entire soul, I'm just well-aware of the reasons.

 

[bobson]

"As if it takes no skill to use an item well"? How'd you get that from my post?

so that the game relies more on skill than whether or not you get a capsule/beam sword/bumper/whatever.

Apologies if I misinterpreted.

I just said that people do not like items because of their randomosity, for lack of a better word. A golden hammer can spawn next to Sonic on Battlefield and Gannondorf will be running like a scared little chick. A Smart Bomb can spawn right in front of a Lucario just as it releases an Aura Sphere. An Assist Trophy can completely mess up the game's flow in terms of who's winning, eg Isaac's golden hand move pushing an already off-stage Pit to its death.

You're missing my point somewhat; no one's debating that it's a legitimate skillful kill if you pick up a starman, golden hammer and bunny ears all at the same time. All of the items you listed are big reward:little risk items, which would be disabled. When you turn off the obnoxious items and only allow items that actually take skill to use well, it adds another dimension to the game's depth. A bat spawning next to you is not automatically an advantage; it can be a boon to your game or come back and bite you in the ass depending on the environment, how you use it, and how your opponent reacts to you using it. The only truly random aspect is where they spawn, and the randomness tends to favor each player equally in your average match.


Edit: Okay, perhaps I should clarify, because people seem to be missing this:
By "reasonable item use," I mean Pokeballs, assist trophies, golden hammers, fans, and all similar low risk:high reward items are disabled. Locking your opponent in a flurry of fan attacks with your back to the wall until you upsmash them for a free kill is not a legitimate kill. Catching your opponent's thrown star rod and using it later to gimp their recovery is.

Edit part 2:

To sum up, just about every item can and often does give an unfair advantage to one player. So for the most part, people prefer to turn them off to make the game more fair and skill-based.

It's hardly unfair if your opponent hits you with a thrown Lip's Stick thrice to gimp your non-air-dodging ass. Most if not all of the non-broken items have obvious counters to their use; you'll only get an advantage if you're skilled enough to use that advantage, or if your opponent is unskilled enough to give you an advantage.

 

[Proud_Smash_N00b]

Items are only used when everyone feels like f***** around. They are not supposed to be in a fight if you plan to get better, unless you use Peach, Diddy, or Wario.

 

[-Big_-Blue 9]

People have more to john about if items are on.

 

[Sosuke]

Items make Sasuke sad. =(

 

[TraverseTown]

Uh, when I think SSB, I think "luck" and "randomness". Also "skill".

 

[MarKO X]

Lip's stick is borderline broken. Even the incredibly skilled can receive a ******** amount of damage from that thing... and it has a disjointed Lucario-like hit box.

Star Rod is an auto-semispike when tossed after a missed aerial, also borderline broken.

If you truly know how to use items, then you'll know why you don't play with them in competitive play. I'm pretty sure that noobs have even LESS of a chance against a pro with items on. (assuming items are on low and few broken items are on)

 

[theONEjanitor]

every item is unfair. if you are holding and item you automatically either have an advantage or disadvantage. that = un fair.

it is not possible for an item to spawn next to you, you pick it up and, and the advantage between both players be the same. That's completely ridiculous if you thnk that. There's no such thing as a "fair" item. if for no other reason that your character has gained a projectile, that's an unfair advantage that was not present before, that you can not prepare for.That's why Sakurai put items in the game in the first place, as sort of a "handicap" for skilled players.

A bat spawning next to you is not automatically an advantage; it can be a boon to your game or come back and bite you in the *** depending on the environment, how you use it, and how your opponent reacts to you using it.

Yes it is, you have just gained an incredibly powerful projectile. Your opponent could not have prepared for this instant gain of an advantage.

The only truly random aspect is where they spawn, and the randomness tends to favor each player equally in your average match

No it doesn't. Look up the word "random". Random means, sometimes its equal, sometimes you get all the weakest pokeballs, sometimes smashballs always spawn in the perfect spot for you, its "random".
and over the course of the match doesn't matter that much anyway. A match could be incredibly close and all of a sudden a golden hammer spawns next to a guy and he gets an easy kill in what used to be a close match.

Luck should minimized as much as possible in any thing that's competitive. Most people on the friend finder are people that are training for competitive player or at least people that want a fair match. That want to learn "how to use my character", not how to "camp around until good items show up"

If you truly know how to use items, then you'll know why you don't play with them in competitive play. I'm pretty sure that noobs have even LESS of a chance against a pro with items on. (assuming items are on low and few broken items are on)

Agreed, because pros play to win, and a pro would simply camp around and wait for a golden hammer every match. and later he would quit the game because its ****ing stupid and boring.
In casual matches, items can be great, in competitive play they are incredibly ********.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Items are fine, most players simply prefer no items.

I would suggest checking in with Jack Kieser and the Items Standard Play thread in Tournament Discussion to find other players who enjoy using items.

Its a schism in the Smash community that will never be closed, and leads to pointless debate. Play what you like to play.