What is a "good" player, really?

[Deleted member 189823]

It bothers me alot when pro players call casual players like myself "n00b" just because we aren't nowhere as good as they are. I understand they have more years of experience, but a "n00b" is a person who doesn't know how to play at all, who has no idea of what he or she is doing. And then the pro players simply say they are average level themselves despite being one of the best in their region. Players like Ally and M2K are merely "good" players, not "great/fantastic".

 

[FoxBlaze71]

Where the **** did you hear people calling nationally ranked players noobs?

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

The worse you are, the more inflated your ego usually is.

The better you are, the more humble your ego because part of being good is truly realizing how much you suck.

As a result, you'll see people who have been learning tech skill for only a few weeks call themselves average or mid-level players because they can start doing some of the stuff they see the pros do in videos, but have no real grasp of what makes a player good. Then you'll have the people who have been playing for a couple of years and understand the game well call themselves average because they know they will get dominated by the pros in real life, and they understand exactly why they're not as good as the pros, and perhaps they're the best in their region.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

^ This, but there are still pros and still noobs. Regional top player's skill depends on the region.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Where the **** did you hear people calling nationally ranked players noobs?

Hm? You misunderstood. I meant good-great players tend to understimate themselves and others even though sometimes things aren't that way. One isn't a n00b or a bad player for not being on par with M2K and Ally.

The worse you are, the more inflated your ego usually is.

The better you are, the more humble your ego because part of being good is truly realizing how much you suck.

"An ignorant man claims he knows much.
A wise man claims he knows little"

Touche.

Except the peak of knowledge is much more vast than the peak of play skill level. I don't think calling people much worse than you (who are casual players) "noobs" is being humble.

 

[Sephirothxxx]

Agreed with swei

 

[FoxBlaze71]

Hm? You misunderstood. I meant good-great players tend to understimate themselves and others even though sometimes things aren't that way.

Players like Ally and M2K are merely "good" players, not "great/fantastic".

Still, the word noob is a relative.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Hope you guys understand what I mean. On the other hand, I am coming from personal experience, mostly.

 

[Zatchiel]

I tend to see the really good players understating their capabilities the most, with the seemingly arrogant/bombastic players being either unskillful, or nowhere near as good as they suppose.

I call myself bad all the time, because, relatively speaking, I am bad. Nowhere near as good as the pundits of any game I play. I guess it depends on a mentality, since every gaming community follows a specific hierarchy, and, regardless of whether or not the hierarchy is acknowledged, they know their relative place, provided they've seen experts at play of their respective game of choice. Now, whether or not they choose to be pretentious with their category is subjective.

I'll throw a pretty accurate hierarchy out for you, a few exceptions might lie at numerous points, but I'll demonstrate nonetheless:

1.Top
2.Superb
3.Excellent
4.Outstanding
5.Relatively Adequate/adept
6.Mediocre
7.Sub-par
8.Could use improvement/lacking
9.Incompetent
10.Inept

Now, I'm certain that not every gaming community follows this hierarchy PRECISELY, though it's definitely apt in elucidating this point.

I'd say it varies by player, easily. I never call any player a noob unless I'm deliberately trolling/exasperating for benefit of entertainment.

Players that are egotistical or inflated are definitely going to affirm their place ostensibly/much higher than what they actually are. The players with experience are much more likely to be nonchalant in their category on a figurative hierarchy; they will jest about their thoughts on their skill level, but probably not their Power Ranking placement (provided they are on the latter). There are also cases whereas players deliberately get fraudulent losses to further support their claim of how "bad they are." I don't see these instances often, so I won't explain them to you unless you'd actually prefer an explanation of that.

I have a pretty broad range of thinking for this topic, since I've been on both sides of this.

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

That's more their attitude. If they have a sour attitude, there's not much you can do but shrug it off and try not to play with them.

 

[Zatchiel]

That's more their attitude. If they have a sour attitude, there's not much you can do but shrug it off and try not to play with them.

That's another thing: I'm assuming that the OP is going by online experiences, yes? That's where I find the description most prevalent. I've never heard anyone call anyone else a "noob" offline unless they both shared a laugh afterward, to indicate that it was comically done.

 

[9Kplus1]

Oh lord...

It bothers me alot when pro players call casual players like myself "n00b" just because we aren't nowhere as good as they are. I understand they have more years of experience, but a "n00b" is a person who doesn't know how to play at all, who has no idea of what he or she is doing.

I'd hate to be an ******* (what am I saying? I love being an *******), but you should really just shut up if any person who is obviously higher skilled and, for that matter, more experienced than you uses such terminology to describe someone of your caliber. The knowledge you may possess means absolutely nothing in this game, if you don't even contribute to the community, let alone boast the skill to properly show it. Despite how well you may know this game (at a... "casual" level...?), there's still a large gap between you and even the scrubs, such as myself, if you show literally no aspiration to become a significant part of this community, or simply to just improve. In other words, if you have no justification behind being, simply put, bad at this game, when playing at a competitive level, then you deserve to be called out.

You also seem to be misunderstanding the general demeanor of the Smash community. If someone -- any person, really -- calls you out on your skill, then they must have a reason behind doing so. I've played with a fair amount of players vastly more skilled than myself, and, consequently, have many memorable losses under my belt. Normally, I don't speak much when in a public setting, and constantly keep in mind that, while I certainly still have a large amount of room for improvement, am still a minor part of this community, due to my lack of experience. For this reason, I have never been called out for my lack of skill irl. No player can successfully improve without getting destroyed several times (although, it's fairly easy to any person to believe that their skill is (close to being) on par with that of a celebrated player, such as Nairo, Otario, or M2K), and you are not an exception from this. If you don't show any sign of improvement, then people are going to become bored with playing with you -- and if you complain, or show any disdain really, then you're deserving of being exposed.

No person, who plays to win, wants to gain bad habits or waste time, even, on a casual player; though, some players, such as Armada, continuously will wreck players, just to stay focused.

And then the pro players simply say they are average level themselves despite being one of the best in their region.

I believe that this was addressed already. Who are you to say that there's something wrong with broadening one's goals? IMO, at least, every person has the right to create new limits for themselves.

Players like Ally and M2K are merely "good" players, not "great/fantastic".

M2K was beaten by the best ROB (one of MK's "free" MUs) in the world. He's bad at this game

EDIT: I pray that you're referring to irl experiences. An immeasurable amount of people take advantage of the anonymity playing online gives them. By shutting up and not saying anything back, you've already shown to be on a much higher level than they are. In addition, if you're no more skilled than the more... frustratingly bad players, then be prepared to defend yourself after being called out. You should really keep in mind that there are some who believe that Brawl is a game for "skilled" players only. So, I reiterate: Ignore them. You'll be much better off doing so.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

LOL at 9kplus1 surgically taking apart your opinion. Although, many scrubs will show some stupidity bravado and call better players noobs out of ignorance.. Depending on the level of player talking adressing you, you may very well be a noob.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I'll throw a pretty accurate hierarchy out for you, a few exceptions might lie at numerous points, but I'll demonstrate nonetheless:

1.Top
2.Superb
3.Excellent
4.Outstanding
5.Relatively Adequate/adept
6.Mediocre
7.Sub-par
8.Could use improvement/lacking
9.Incompetent
10.Inept

I have a pretty broad range of thinking for this topic, since I've been on both sides of this.

That's a very good and specific ranking list.

Oh lord...

I'd hate to be an ******* (what am I saying? I love being an *******), but you should really just shut up if any person who is obviously higher skilled and, for that matter, more experienced than you uses such terminology to describe someone of your caliber.

I am not one to shut up at things I disagree with. ;/ If you'd actually know where I'm coming from with this...

The knowledge you may possess means absolutely nothing in this game, if you don't even contribute to the community, let alone boast the skill to properly show it. Despite how well you may know this game (at a... "casual" level...?), there's still a large gap between you and even the scrubs, such as myself, if you show literally no aspiration to become a significant part of this community, or simply to just improve.

ITT: Contributing to Smashboards determines your skill level.

I believe that this was addressed already. Who are you to say that there's something wrong with broadening one's goals? IMO, at least, every person has the right to create new limits for themselves.

I am afraid you are looking way too deep into what I said. That wasn't my intended message at all.

EDIT: I pray that you're referring to irl experiences. An immeasurable amount of people take advantage of the anonymity playing online gives them. By shutting up and not saying anything back, you've already shown to be on a much higher level than they are. In addition, if you're no more skilled than the more... frustratingly bad players, then be prepared to defend yourself after being called out. You should really keep in mind that there are some who believe that Brawl is a game for "skilled" players only. So, I reiterate: Ignore them. You'll be much better off doing so.

I appreciate the advice but, I am not too offended by what this player has told me. Yes, he is a professional player (the top 2-3 of Puerto Rico) and he has been playing since the game came out while I started a little over a year ago. I just don't think he is correct when he thinks I am a n00b when there are much, much worse people out there.


@FoxBlaze71: I didn't call better olayers n00bs. It was an example.

 

[9Kplus1]

ITT: Contributing to Smashboards determines your skill level.

"Contributing to the community" is not limited to activity on SWF. If you're a random with very little skill, then no one is going to give two squirts of piss about you.

I appreciate the advice but, I am not too offended by what this player has told me. Yes, he is a professional player (the top 2-3 of Puerto Rico) and he has been playing since the game came out while I started a little over a year ago. I just don't think he is correct when he thinks I am a n00b when there are much, much worse people out there.

You have nothing to prove to this person -- why continue to give a ****? Every person has a different perspective on what's important to have when playing this game. I don't see much of a point in QQing about one person calling you out, when a huge portion of the community would think otherwise.

If you're really that paranoid about other people believing the same thing, then get better. If you don't wish to get better, then don't complain.

 

[Zatchiel]

If you're a random with very little skill, then no one is going to give two squirts of piss about you.

I'm compelled to object: people of the community generally take interest in aiding a newcomer toward becoming a better player, especially offline, provided this newcomer actually seeks improvement. If the player doesn't care, the response of others should be congruent, which adheres to your statement.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Oh, I didn't come here to QQ, I was just wondering what most others thought about what defines a "good" player. Try not to be so abrasive next time. ;/

I do, however, appreciate that you didn't act like a dumb troll and kinda helped.

 

[9Kplus1]

Oh, I didn't come here to QQ, I was just wondering what most others thought about what defines a "good" player. Try not to be so abrasive next time. ;/

My apologizes. Perhaps that statement was a bit rash, if not too vague to be taken seriously?

Anyway, my point was that if one picks up this game competitively, especially via online play, then they should be prepared to be shunned by the community. Though, again, every person has a different mindset on what's important to have in this game. Honestly, it's much better for you, as a player, to create your own standards -- your own perspective on what defines a "good" player.

 

[Zatchiel]

I was just wondering what most others thought about what defines a "good" player.

Well, it's still a subjective concept. For instance, a joke can be used to describe a mentality popular among Xbox gamers: "anyone worse than you is a noob, and anyone better than you has no life."
With the given, you can construct a hierarchy of three ranks:
1."Has no life"
2.You
3."Noob"
This is a simple demonstration, but hope it helps enough. On mobile atm.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

My apologizes. Perhaps that statement was a bit rash, if not too vague to be taken seriously?

Anyway, my point was that if one picks up this game competitively, especially via online play, then they should be prepared to be shunned by the community. Though, again, every person has a different mindset on what's important to have in this game. Honestly, it's much better for you, as a player, to create your own standards -- your own perspective on what defines a "good" player.

I thank you for explaining your points well, though. Despite being a little rash, you were trying to help (or at leastI think so...).

Well, it's still a subjective concept. For instance, a joke can be used to describe a mentality popular among Xbox gamers: "anyone worse than you is a noob, and anyone better than you has no life."
With the given, you can construct a hierarchy of three ranks:
1."Has no life"
2.You
3."Noob"
This is a simple demonstration, but hope it helps enough. On mobile atm.

Thank you.

Those hierarchy ranks crack me up. xd

 

[EthereaL]

Edit: I'm going to bar all ethical bull**** of "doesn't chaingrab" or whatever, or it's "not fair he wins because he uses ___ tactic!" Abuse every cheap tactic you can. Otherwise, you're not even playing the same game. Best advice.

Brawl players in general aren't good players, they're just better players.

Play Virtua Fighter. When someone is reading your every move 8-10 moves in advance...in about half a second...consistently...

Right.

The answer to what makes a good player is a relative answer. "good" to M2K is different than "good" to randomscruv45. However, relative "good"ness, after tech skill, is completely based on how far into your opponent's mind can you read. After all, why do reaction times matter if you know exactly when your opponent will do something?

 

[zmx]

Brawl players in general aren't good players, they're just better players.

Play Virtua Fighter. When someone is reading your every move 8-10 moves in advance...in about half a second...consistently...

Right.

The answer to what makes a good player is a relative answer. "good" to M2K is different than "good" to randomscruv45. However, relative "good"ness, after tech skill, is completely based on how far into your opponent's mind can you read. After all, why do reaction times matter if you know exactly when your opponent will do something?

No.

Brawl is just not about reads. At all. That is a part of it. Spacing and tech skill is also very important. In fact reads are 100% useless without spacing.

And to answer your question reaction times matter because just because you know what they are going to do doesn't mean you can effectively punish it without good reaction timing and spacing. Likewise if you didn't know what they were going to do exactly (which is a good chunk of the time) the only way you could punish it is through reaction timing.

At times Brawl has way more option selects than your typical fighter. Because of this it can at times be much harder to read what they are going to do and even harder to punish it.

 

[R h y m e]

Glory177 is a perfect example of people who think they're good when they're not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2zHf_nGTOQ
Look at the comments here, they start at about page 5.

 

[Vermanubis]

I think being a good player is an art. To me, the most integral facet of a good player is their ability to be malleable; to adapt swiftly and capitalize on context. I don't think there's much else to being a good player than a finely hewned ability to reduce large amounts of information into a generalized projection of possibilities and options. There're two distinct aspects to art though: the vision and the ability. You can visualize an image, but you have to also be able to wield a drawing utensil with enough alacrity to translate the image.

 

[zmx]

Glory177 is a perfect example of people who think they're good when they're not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2zHf_nGTOQ
Look at the comments here, they start at about page 5.

I doubt the guy thinks he's good, he's trolling. Look at his other comments.

Anyways I'm guessing you are new here. If you want to find players to play I suggest heading over to the arena section of this site or this Xat: http://xat.com/chat/room/158124163/

This chat is pretty active around 5-9ish EST.

And I agree 100% with the initial comments about top players calling themselves bad because of humility. They realize how much they can improve on.

For instance, I play on wifi all the time. Naturally I can easily beat newbies or mid-low level players given my experience and drive to improve but when I play high-top level players it reminds me how bad I really am and how far there is to go.

 

[EthereaL]

No.

Brawl is just not about reads. At all. That is a part of it. Spacing and tech skill is also very important. In fact reads are 100% useless without spacing.

And to answer your question reaction times matter because just because you know what they are going to do doesn't mean you can effectively punish it without good reaction timing and spacing. Likewise if you didn't know what they were going to do exactly (which is a good chunk of the time) the only way you could punish it is through reaction timing.

At times Brawl has way more option selects than your typical fighter. Because of this it can at times be much harder to read what they are going to do and even harder to punish it.

This is the second time youve posted responding to me without any idea what I was talking about.

I would appreciate it if you read my posts for comprehension before you jumped on them. I know you're a brilliant guy, you don't have to "prove it" by rushing to bash anything you think is mildly incorrect.

Secondly, I said beyond tech skill, i.e. assuming perfect tech skill. Anyone can master a technique. Anyone can perfect their spacing, or their punishments. It is the "mindgames" that truly establish "good" players. And, like it or not, reaction times don't matter very much at all. M2K has a .25 reaction time (.05 slower than average), yet was one of the best players to ever play Brawl.

Thirdly, you speak about Virtua Figher with absolutely no regard for how mind-numbingly complicated it is. The variations in that exceed the options of Brawl, easily.

My apologies, but I can't stand when people say things like that.

 

[zmx]

Anyone can perfect their spacing, or their punishments.

You have no idea what spacing means. Nor do you have any idea how high level brawl is played.

I suggest you stop posting about either until you've been around longer than a week, maybe have watched some videos and listened to some commentary. If you don't like being told you are wrong simply don't post about stuff you don't know about.

 

[EthereaL]

You have no idea what spacing means. Nor do you have any idea how high level brawl is played.

I suggest you stop posting about either until you've been around longer than a week, maybe have watched some videos and listened to some commentary. If you don't like being told you are wrong simply don't post about stuff you don't know about.

1. Considering I've played smash bros. for going on 8 years, now...I have a fairly good concept of spacing.

2. You didn't respond to a single point of mine, and attacked me.

 

[zmx]

I am not attacking you. I never resort to Ad Hominem. I am attacking your argument. I'm just pointing out what you just said was so absurd that you can't possibly understand the concepts unless you are trolling.

It doesn't matter how long you've been playing the series. Comp. play is vastly different from casual play.

 

[vato_break]

everyone is pretty bad at brawl, some people are just worse than others. Everyone sucks

 

[zmx]

everyone is pretty bad at brawl, some people are just worse than others. Everyone sucks

I have seriously been thinking this for some time. Even "top" players are no where near perfect.

 

[Shawn101589]

In 2005 I was a freshman in high school and I met these kids Travis and Derrek. We started hanging out quite a bit and the first time I went to Travis' house, and saw that he had a GC. The first thing I asked was if he had Melee, and he said that was all that they played. I started telling him about how I was amazing as Smash 64, and they both kind of scoffed at me saying there was no way I could beat them. I was a bit taken aback, how could they be so sure of themselves that they could beat me in this party game?

Boy was I wrong. They were far better then I. Granted, their knowledge of the game was very basic compared to what we all know today, they didn't wd, L cancel, etc. They just knew how to space, how to spot dodge proficiently, etc. I was astounded. I wanted to learn. Could this game that I have always yearned to own have a competitive nature to it?

From my point of view, they were amazing.

So I practiced. For the next 2 years I played with them at least two days a week. We started learning about advanced techniques, practicing them often. We felt like gods.


We heard about a tournament that was happening in our local mall, and practiced even harder. I eventually surpassed Derrek,, Travis and I have been very even ever since, learning at generally the same pace. We all went to it, and we all did fairly well, but were completely destroyed by "Haiyoto" (who I think said he was on this board but idr what his name was, his tag at the tournament was "Kirby" ) and his brother who I remember dominating me with Link ._.

Then suddenly, I found myself feeling average, and haiyoto and his brother were the best people i'd ever played.


We kept playing inside our own clique, never really traveling to tournaments. Just kept improving in any way we could. Eventually, we once again reached a conclusion that we were pretty close to the top.


Eventually through a mutual friend, we met Tichinde, a marth player who happened to live around the block from us, and he came to see how good we were. When we met his expectations, he introduced us to ZoSo, and we have all become really solid friends. Kept playing. Suddenly, from my point of view, ZoSo was super top, and I was just average.


Do you see a trend here? It is all about perspective. And one thing I've learned is, it doesn't matter how good you think you are. When you put yourself on a higher horse than you should, start feeling superior, it becomes a lot harder to take advice to heart, and in general isn't a good thing. If you are being called a noob/scrub, it's probably because you are a noob/scrub. Maybe if you ask for advice instead of of claiming you are good when you clearly aren't, you'd be called out less?


At every tournament I go to, I play as many people as humanly possible, and any and every person who can be me solidly I ask for advice, pick their brains. You'd be surprised how many literally game changing revelations I have at almost every tournament I go to. This in itself gives me motivation to improve, because If I can still learn **** that blows my mind, I have a long way to go. I'm getting there, and I plan to be a major threat, but I'm DEFINITELY not there yet, and there is no shame in that.


Now you ask, What is a "good player"? My response is, it's relative. Anyone better than you is a "good player", and you should aspire to get on there level instead of taking their "insults" to heart.

I think being a good player is an art. To me, the most integral facet of a good player is their ability to be malleable; to adapt swiftly and capitalize on context. I don't think there's much else to being a good player than a finely hewned ability to reduce large amounts of information into a generalized projection of possibilities and options. There're two distinct aspects to art though: the vision and the ability. You can visualize an image, but you have to also be able to wield a drawing utensil with enough alacrity to translate the image.

This is so true in so many ways. I've learned a lot of things from people who I feel gameplay wise I am far superior to, but they seem to understand the game in a much, much greater way than I do and give stellar advice. It's pretty incredible.

 

[EthereaL]

I am not attacking you. I never resort to Ad Hominem. I am attacking your argument. I'm just pointing out what you just said was so absurd that you can't possibly understand the concepts unless you are trolling.

It doesn't matter how long you've been playing the series. Comp. play is vastly different from casual play.

If you don't believe you can learn proper spacing, then there lies our disagreement. Again falling to example, M2K learned Melee primarily on his own, yet he became one of the dominant players of all time.

Good spacing, and to an extent the ambiguous "good zoning", can be theorized, frame-perfected, and committed to instinctive play. In another thread I recently settled the question of spacing versus zoning:

"Spacing" is the battle for the sweetspots at which your moves are most effective, and your opponents are least effective.

I didn't quote myself word for word, but I've been running on 2 hours of sleep throughout my posting today (something I try to avoid; I tend not to think logically while tired), so I think it's excusable, haha.

By all means. What is "spacing" to you, then, if not the battle for the optimal placement/s for your character?

I apologize if you weren't intending to attack me. However, ignoring all of my points and resorting to the "don't talk until you know..." argument is, almost by definition, ad hominum. It's certainly not conducive to any discussion.

Now, I understand where you're coming from.

You believe that, regardless of how good your "reads" are, if not for tech skill, matchup knowledge, or the ability to react to them, they are useless, as you'll miss your punishment opportunities. This is true, to an extent.

However, to blatantly say "no" to the ablility to read your opponent's superiority to anything else is simply foolish.

Now, I'm off to take a nap before work.

 

[zmx]

You still haven't justified how any player can perfect their spacing and punishes like you said. Especially since you know, top players mess up both all the time.

You can have good spacing and tech skill and win games without ever getting any good reads if they are bad enough. You will never win a game just because you knew what they were going to do but didn't punish it. So no, reads are not far more important than spacing.

I'd say in terms of importance they are all very important and come together to make a better player. You can't say reads are far more important than spacing and tech skill because like I said earlier, reading is absolutely useless if you can't do anything with it.

And again theory is only useful when it's applied. And you can't get good at any of the three by just theory crafting. I promise you, theory craft as much as you want, face an actual good player for the first time and you will get destroyed while wondering why none of your theory craft worked. If you can even remember any of it while getting bodied.

 

[azn_tony_908]

I also think "noob" should be applied when the person brags and boasts about how good they are even though they aren't really that good,as in a spammy sam.( I mean, HORRIBLE, and then when they lose, they just say something stupid.) I'd like to say I'm average, unless I beat certain people I think are good at the game.

 

[Life]

The good player is the one who wins.

However, sportsmanship is kind of (read: very much) a big deal, too. Don't get mad when you lose (or at least don't get mad at the other player/the game itself, getting mad at yourself is totally OK in moderation, that's how some people drive themselves), don't be arrogant, and don't take the bait when someone else gets mad and/or arrogant.

Even if you're a mediocre-at-best player like myself, as long as you're chill enough, nobody worth your time will mind too much. (In fact, most people will be quite helpful, because if you can compete you're more likely to stick around, yeah?)

Also, namedropping KID Goggles, he probably has something worth sharing on the subject.

 

[EthereaL]

You still haven't justified how any player can perfect their spacing and punishes like you said. Especially since you know, top players mess up both all the time.

You can have good spacing and tech skill and win games without ever getting any good reads if they are bad enough. You will never win a game just because you knew what they were going to do but didn't punish it. So no, reads are not far more important than spacing.

I'd say in terms of importance they are all very important and come together to make a better player. You can't say reads are far more important than spacing and tech skill because like I said earlier, reading is absolutely useless if you can't do anything with it.

You only further justify my claims that Brawl players are, in general, bad, and don't give any strength to your own. You know as well as I that, ideally, players wouldn't drop their technical skill. And, again, my initial point was that assuming equal tech skill.

Regarding your spacing comments, you've yet to provide a single example of why mindgames would be less of a determining factor than anything else in "good" players versus "average". Read your own comments: "if they are bad enough."

Regardless...


There is a player Melee. His tagline is "dark". He does technically-skilled things with Fox that blow the top players' minds. He virtually never misses a technical opening, he virtually never messes up his technical skill...he, in short, plays a near-TAS character.

He sucks.

Melee, a game far more based upon technical skill and not 'dropping the combo' once you have it, far more than Brawl is...the most technical player in the game, sucks.


To take yet another example, just look for the Valle vs. Choi matchup(found somewhere in this video). The Custom Combo was the most dominant move in the game (it literally outstripped every other tactic in the game...not by a little; by a lot). Valle was the inventor, and hadn't used it until that game. In spite of Choi never seeing the move before, and being crushed in the first 2-3 games, he managed to adapt and bring the series all the way until the final game, losing narrowly.


Now, obviously, if you're too technically inept to understand how to so much as depress the buttons, then obviously the "noob" will win. However, at that point you're arguing for the sake of argument.

 

[zmx]

"You only further justify my claims that Brawl players are, in general, bad, and don't give any strength to your own. You know as well as I that, ideally, players wouldn't drop their technical skill. And, again, my initial point was that assuming equal tech skill."

I have seen players drop technical stuff in just about every popular fighting game. Again, you have to stop theorizing so much. Seriously, enter a tourny with all the theory in the world. See how far you get. I will repeat myself one last time because you fail to grasp such a simple concept. Theory without application or reality is meaningless.

And again you still have not justified your statement how anyone can perfect their spacing, punishes and tech skill when no player in the WORLD has come even close to this. If anyone had they'd be unbeatable.

You don't get better at this game by constantly theorizing without ever trying out the stuff in real situations. You get better through practice and experience at higher levels of play. You are like a student that goes to Math class, listens to all the lectures, watches a few videos and then without ever having done a single problem on their own goes into the test and naturally fails while wondering what went wrong.

 

[EthereaL]

I have never said that it was useful to theorize and to never practice your technical skill.

My stance has been, the entire time, that reads are more important in determining the better players. You have yet to refute any of my points, instead posting with increasingly frustrating _____.

How in God's name do you get "you can win if all you do is theorycraft" out of that?

I don't have to justify my position. Players can learn spacing through sheer practice. Any tech skill, too. The fact remains that most technical players still lose to the players who can "read" them better, in every fighting game, across the board. So, no, if a player "perfected" their tech skill, they would not beat everyone. Unless you're trying to say at beyond-human levels, in which case you're arguing an even more untenable position.

Also, yes, good players mess up tech skill all the time. Ideally, they should practice until it would be laughable to mess it up, no matter what pressure is there.

In summary:

1. You attacked me yet again, not providing any countering points to mine, ignoring the majority of my arguments.

2. You proposed that someone who never messed up their tech skill would be impossible to beat (other than powersheilding, which is obviously not included).

3. You're implying that players can't learn good spacing.

You've nearly reduced me to insults through your absurdity. Please, don't post again unless you want to counter the points I've made. I don't like emotionally-charged discussion; it's not conducive.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Thank you, people. I have come to accept myself as a mediocre player without feeling like a loser.