MERPIS
Smash Lord
How do we do well against him? Apparently it is 50:50.
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
I agree. Also due to our small size, we can pretty much float out of the way of nair to limit cross. Cloud's juggling is completely nulified against some one who is both a fast faller, and has 6 jumps to fake people out with. Cloud's range isn't that big of an issue considering we have dash attack and dash grab, which both go very far. And while Cloud has good kill power, you can't kill what you can't catch, meanwhile MK can just get a dthrow or dash attack to upb or a bthrow to harassment offstage, both very well securing the KO.Not to mention MK's jab and dsmash both hit Cloud below the ledge. So that's a thing.I don't main MK, but he's my strongest character after Jr. IMO...
I actually find the MU pretty easy, even though Cloud can space us pretty hard and is quite safe, he's not that hard to get offstage or to gimp as MK so I make that my gameplan when I can hit him. Of course you still mostly bait/punish as usual, though there's the pressure to act from Limit, but I don't think it's anything Meta Knight players can't work around since a good portion of the time you'll be applying counter-pressure and he won't be stood there building limit just in-case you wombo combo him. That said, a lot of the pressure you apply in this MU has to be more mental than physical since Cloud can play pretty damn safe. But again, MK players can make it work.
Of course, Cloud also beats you vertically somewhat, which is a big part of our game, but I don't think it stops you from juggling him with stuff like U-Air if you're fast or accurate (which you should be), and I think smart use of Dimensional Cape can assist in getting MK out of U-Air strings. I'm not sure about using U-Tilt as a combo extender/to beat Cloud's D-Air either, but honestly?.. -this is one of the few MUs where you probably want to play horizontal anyway and just ignore juggling too much as dealing unnecessary % will just add to his limit. The usual Shuttle Loop shenanigans still work of course, but why focus on getting to those if you can gimp him for early leads.
Cloud does have good KO power though, and MK is kind of light, so it's not like the easy KO options are totally one sided in MK's favor. This is an MU where bad moves can mean hell to pay on both sides, Cloud's recoveries - for example - have to be on point since we can just sit and Jab on the ledge if they never manage the sweetspot, and even then, the Jab Finisher can 2-frame in my experience, so timing it can invalidate a sweetspot anyway and start the cycle again.
I think as the meta progresses, we might even see MK winning this MU because he can capitalize so easily on the pros and cons, and pressure Cloud into never truly focusing on limit unless Cloud pushes back. Though, that's just my opinion on it, and I think some people would say Cloud is still just too good to have his weaknesses so easily exploited.
I actually think we have a few moves that do a good job of making mince-meat of Climhazzard. Just because we can't meteor him doesn't mean we don't have options. Most of our moves will either knock him away from the ledge and/or set us up for an easy gimp, or will outright stage-spike him. We don't even have to go off-stage if the Cloud player isn't careful since D-Tilt and Jab can knock him far enough away that without a jump he doesn't get back.I think it's either even or -1 for MK, I'm leaning towards -1. Cloud's damage output is pretty ridiculous and combined with how hard it can be to penetrate his combination of massive hitboxes and mobility, while being threatened with single moves or two-hit combos which do 20-30%, the neutral game is painful and tiring over a set (which can't be understated). But it's not too bad cause our combos almost always put him in a very uncomfortable position i.e. offstage as long as you use the right finisher, and he's a good weight for them so we get good damage on him consistently. He beats us in the killing department cause we're light af, and he loves that MK has bad ledge getup options (LCS at the ledge on reaction is ).
Utilt is the only thing we have that beats Dair from below. Obviously we can run to the side of him and Bair/Fair too, although this requires practice. It's also annoying that we don't have a good move (i.e. no meteor) to exploit the weak point of Climhazzard.
I don't think it's that easy - Cloud still pressures us and he can absolutely catch us if he needs to since he's faster than us, but our punish game is obnoxiously strong compared to his - all the time, too, instead of just occasionally like Cloud's Limit - he has to work much more for KOs, even if it's not as hard, whereas we can KO him relatively easily with a single well placed string. We apply more theoretical pressure to Cloud than he does to us, and that's why I think the MU is in our favour we invalidate his pressure game so all he has is zoning. I imagine he has to challenge our movement to avoid us being close enough to catch him off-guard too, and that means he's pretty easy to bait, which also means free, strong punishes.I agree. Also due to our small size, we can pretty much float out of the way of nair to limit cross. Cloud's juggling is completely nulified against some one who is both a fast faller, and has 6 jumps to fake people out with. Cloud's range isn't that big of an issue considering we have dash attack and dash grab, which both go very far. And while Cloud has good kill power, you can't kill what you can't catch, meanwhile MK can just get a dthrow or dash attack to upb or a bthrow to harassment offstage, both very well securing the KO.Not to mention MK's jab and dsmash both hit Cloud below the ledge. So that's a thing.
The weak point is at the back. We don't have the range to challenge it from the front. Because he's prone to stage spiking cause of the weird untechable property of Climhazzard, most characters can simply run off and Bair it or something and he's dead. But it doesn't work with multihits, which both Fair and Bair are. The only way to do it without getting hit out would be like a well-timed run-off Nair which is a big commitment.I actually think we have a few moves that do a good job of making mince-meat of Climhazzard. Just because we can't meteor him doesn't mean we don't have options. Most of our moves will either knock him away from the ledge and/or set us up for an easy gimp, or will outright stage-spike him. We don't even have to go off-stage if the Cloud player isn't careful since D-Tilt and Jab can knock him far enough away that without a jump he doesn't get back.
I dunno if B-Air is that bad for the job, honestly. Sure, Cloud can tech it, but it's still a potential stage-spike. The only bad outcome really would be to only hit the first hit (which I don't see happening), as even missing the third would spike him with the drag-down of the second hit. It might even be beneficial to drag him down as opposed to going for a stage-spike as then there's no chance to tech anything at all. It is pretty unsafe though compared to other options, so I agree probably not the best.The weak point is at the back. We don't have the range to challenge it from the front. Because he's prone to stage spiking cause of the weird untechable property of Climhazzard, most characters can simply run off and Bair it or something and he's dead. But it doesn't work with multihits, which both Fair and Bair are. The only way to do it without getting hit out would be like a well-timed run-off Nair which is a big commitment.
I do concede that we could shield it from onstage and Dsmash him after though. Need to try that, along with Drilling into the stage.