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The existence of Ivysaur should be reason enough to not go back to ledge-hogging. Having these forms of recovery be completely invalidated by such a simple maneuver...Another poll I want to do to see where people stand on this more divisive issue, hopefully a lot more divisive than my last one lol.
As always, try to articulate why you think the way you do. Discussion is always welcome.
I feel ya. It feels like the main argument against ledgetrumping is that if your opponent happens to reach the ledge before you do because you attempted to edgeguard actively, you will be put at disadvantage, so best not take the risk.I liked ledgehogging. I think it promotes going offstage more for more dynamic edgeguards. With trumping it makes edgeguarding characters with broken recoveries annoying because you might get a clean edgeguard, but if they hit the ledge just after you, suddenly you’re in disadvantage for even trying. So it’s better to stay closer to the stage with the trumping mechanic existing. With ledgehogging, you can keep edgeguarding them before they get back, so they’re forced to go onstage if they can make it back at all, which keeps your advantage state open. You also gain more depth, with both options of ledgehogging and ledge trapping being in play. As long as they keep the invincibility at the ledge to only the first grab, as well, to prevent planking. I think if this mechanic replaced trumping, we could go back to 4 stocks as a standard with Ultimate.
Or a mixture of the two - say maybe the first time you grab ledge, you can hog it, but times thereafter before touching ground again, you could be trumped. So if you want to go for deep edgeguards, you have to leave the ledge open for a moment before trying again.
I mean would a really good Little Mac ever get thrown off the stage for that to even matter?Edge trumping. Edge hogging is really cheap and free edge guard against characters like Little Mac. Good riddance.
sometimes? I mean, zero to deaths happen so I guess not getting touched is possible but isn't it more likely that a player would have to be vastly superior in skill to their opponent to not get grabbed or hit with their CQC character in order to never worry about being offstage?I mean would a really good Little Mac ever get thrown off the stage for that to even matter?
I meant it as a joke, mostly. Do people not remember "don't get hit"?edge hogging was a mistake.
It does create a risk for recovery (as if just being in the position wasn't enough) where your already disadvantageous position becomes even more dire than it should be.
- makes zero sense to prevent another character from grabbing a ledge just because it is occupied.
- characters in melee had crap recoveries anyway so why make it even harder to get back if your opponent just hugs the ledge
Offstage plays were more of a mental game than they are now this way as well. However, good recoveries and ledge trumping create way more offstage combat than what was available in melee.
I don't miss edge hogging. It just means that players have more of a chance to come back when they're off stage.
sometimes? I mean, zero to deaths happen so I guess not getting touched is possible but isn't it more likely that a player would have to be vastly superior in skill to their opponent to not get grabbed or hit with their CQC character in order to never worry about being offstage?
Makes perfect sense to me. You knocked them off and managed to keep them off, you clearly got the best of them. Why should they deserve to get back?
- makes zero sense to prevent another character from grabbing a ledge just because it is occupied.
No one "deserves" to come back. They'll only come back if you let them. Why not complain about recoveries being so good instead of the ledge system? Recoveries are great (except a few) for the most part, which is a better environment for melee and brawl style ledges. Still, attempting to come back to the stage from below in those games is barely possible unless the one in advantage Flubbed.I meant it as a joke, mostly. Do people not remember "don't get hit"?
And I disagree with this:
Makes perfect sense to me. You knocked them off and managed to keep them off, you clearly got the best of them. Why should they deserve to get back?
I used to welcome ledge trumping, but if you touch the ledge at almost the exact same time, and whatever micro-second longer it took for them to grab ends up trumping you, you are now at disadvantage. How is that a good mechanic? It's just frustrating and almost RNG in nature.
I'd be more willing to accept trumping if it were nerfed a bit - like I said before, maybe you can hog the ledge on your first grab, but subsequent grabs can can get you trumped - like what they did with invincibility. Or maybe you can only be trumped after like a timer of 2 seconds or something. Make it something doable, but add risk so you're not just hanging there waiting for an up b, just to roll back onto the stage for your free kill. Or just make it easier for all characters to get a runoff trump, kind of like how it was in Smash 4.