What would your stage list look like?

[Walt]

Because sheik can up-b stall on 60% of jungle japes. and falco is given mobility and that is just not ok. also water.

 

[Strong Badam]

ban Rainbow Cruise
make Jungle Japes legal


Sheik can up-b stall on any stage with a ledge. I guess we should ban all stages except for Mute City and Icicle Mountain?

 

[ph00tbag]

Get rid of the banning process. Get rid of the distinction between CP and Neutral. Then make this the stage list:

Singles
Final Destination
Battlefield
Dreamland
Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams
Pokemon Stadium

Doubles
Final Destination
Battlefield
Dreamland
Yoshi's Story
Pokemon Stadium

In each case, each player/team strikes two stages before the first round. In singles, the last stage is decided by a coin toss (that is, random stage select). Subsequent rounds follow the standard pattern of loser pick character, winner pick character, loser pick stage.

My reasoning here is that in the current metagame, three stages are almost always banned in the counterpick process: Kongo Jungle, Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise. And even if these stages are not banned, they are very rarely selected at the highest levels. I say cut out the middleman. Overall it simplifies the ruleset, and it doesn't impact high level play very heavily.

 

[Strong Badam]

Without Brinstar, the Fox DK matchup is 70-30 from 60-40.

 

[Varist]

Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Fountain of Dreams
Pokemon Stadium
Yoshi's Story
Dream Land N64

Counter-Pick:
Brinstar
Corneria
Onett
Green Greens
Great Bay
Jungle Japes
Mushroom Kingdom II
Peach's Castle -- (when neither character capable of wall infinite, otherwise banned)
Fourside -- (when neither character capable of wall infinite, otherwise banned)
Mute City
Rainbow Cruise


I think that as play gets more advanced, players will be open to more stages.

As long as there are no glitches or techniques that make the match-up unplayable,
the only thing separating what we currently see as fitting for a starter and fitting for a counter-pick,
is how vanilla the stage looks.

It's too bad the metagame started with FD as the fairest stage due to its basic layout.
I think we grew from there into accepting more stages similar to FD, becoming more and more lenient.
But we didn't have to start with FD in the first place.
Every stage is a stage no more or less fair than the next.
Arguable distinctions can be made for walk-off stages, because they can potentially take away a critical element of top-level play.
and stages with camping facilitation, because this game is a competitive game, and players will camp if they can.

Mastering all the different stages in the game is next to mastering all the different abilities of a character. Irregular stages shouldn't be banned for that fact.

 

[soju]

I've always wondered why they had counter pick stage options when smashers complain about a stage being too biased towards a certain character, it's called counter pick for a reason, if it troubles you so much just ban it while going against an opponent >:B I mean they banned Rainbow Cruise, Poke Floats, Corneria!?!?!(and others too) And it's not like they got a clear win advantage, you know what's going to happen on each of those stages save for maybe random lasers in Corneria, but if you're really going to be all butthurt about stage advantage, take counterpick stage system out and make all the stages neutral. It could just be me or people just ***** too much

*edit
And to the guy above me, your last comment, I agree with you all the way >:3

 

[Anth0ny]

I've always wondered why they had counter pick stage options when smashers complain about a stage being too biased towards a certain character, it's called counter pick for a reason, if it troubles you so much just ban it while going against an opponent >:B I mean they banned Rainbow Cruise, Poke Floats, Corneria!?!?!(and others too) And it's not like they got a clear win advantage, you know what's going to happen on each of those stages save for maybe random lasers in Corneria, but if you're really going to be all butthurt about stage advantage, take counterpick stage system out and make all the stages neutral. It could just be me or people just ***** too much

*edit
And to the guy above me, your last comment, I agree with you all the way >:3

I agree with this. I think there's way too many stages banned right now for the wrong reasons.

 

[Bones0]

Neutral:
BF
DL
FD
FoD
YS

Counterpick (solely for the purpose of stage striking):
PS


If you want to add in more counterpicks, I would suggest Jungle Japes and Green Greens much more than Brinstar and RC. Only thing sketchy about JJ is the water and klaptrap, and only thing sketchy about GG are the blocks, apples, and absurdly low ceiling. Those hazards seem minute compared to the entire level being engulfed in lava and the entire stage moving around with disappearing platforms.

 

[Strong Badam]

Brinstar is never 100% engulfed in lava.

additionally, a stage that favors non-fast fallers is healthy for character diversity.

 

[Lovage]

brinstars really gay because there's a 20% chance you get the type of lava that is right on the level of the bottom platform. where you can only stand on some spots without getting burned, and lots of attacks will get you burned cuz they dip into the lava. this lava level feels inconsistent as **** too, sometimes certain parts of the bottom platform are safe to stand, sometimes not, really dumb imo

 

[stelzig]

Starter:
Battlefield
Dreamland
Final Destination
Fountain of Dreams
Yoshi's Story

Counter:
Pokemon Stadium

<3 Europe

this

Plus kj64 as counterpick in teams

 

[Strong Badam]

get better oscar LOL

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Every stage would be legal, players strike from the entire stage list.

 

[Strong Badam]

...how do counterpicks work?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

People strike until there are x remaining stages left. X remaining stages = counter-picks. Then players continue striking until they reach 1 stage, that stage is the starter.

X is up to the discretion of the tournament organizer, but should be at the highest number of possible to ensure maximum game depth while avoiding broken tactics and strategies.

 

[Mahone]

Neutral:
BF
DL
FD
FoD
YS
PS
KJ64

No counter picks, just that

Also, I don't know why everyone is so in love with pokemon stadium, it heavily favors spacies, all the transformations are gay, the smoke when the stage changes is dumb, the camera at the ledge is weird...

The only reason i have it is cuz there aren't enough stages, but i have a feeling that some of the stages we have banned in the past are more fair than PS

 

[JPOBS]

Every stage would be legal, players strike from the entire stage list.

People strike until there are x remaining stages left. X remaining stages = counter-picks. Then players continue striking until they reach 1 stage, that stage is the starter.

X is up to the discretion of the tournament organizer, but should be at the highest number of possible to ensure maximum game depth while avoiding broken tactics and strategies.

this is without a doubt, the WORST suggestion I have ever heard. What you propose does not at all avoid broken tactics and strategies, in fact it fosters them.

Every stage being legal with striking is absolutely ********. There are 29 stages, 28 strikes total, so 14 strikes each per players, the last stage is the starter?

Ok I play fox, my first 8 strikes are FD, battlefield, yoshies, FoD, Dreamland, Kongo, Stadium, Brinstar, then for the rest of my strikes I remove anything I don't like at my leisure.

Essentially, once I remove ALL of the good stages with my strikes, it doesn't even matter what you strike, I've already guaranteed that I start on a dumb broken piece of crap like temple. On top of that, the only available counterpicks would be stuff like Great Bay, Yoshis Iland 64, etc etc whathaveyou because of how I've chosen to strike.

Seriously, think about the implications of your suggestions.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I don't know why anyone would rather have KJ64 over Brinstar. The only real reason to remove Brinstar is Nana gets ******** when you split up the stage and lava can be dumb sometimes, but tbh those are really weak reasons to get rid of a stage. KJ64 is a great stage when the players aren't super lame, but unfortunately thats not usually the case lol.

Overall I'm in favor of more stages. I'm old school like that. And make everything best of 5 (except pools) so losing on a counterpick doesn't mean so much.

Also, I don't know why everyone is so in love with pokemon stadium, it heavily favors spacies, all the transformations are gay, the smoke when the stage changes is dumb, the camera at the ledge is weird...

The only reason i have it is cuz there aren't enough stages, but i have a feeling that some of the stages we have banned in the past are more fair than PS

So true. People love their stadium, but some matchups are very skewed on it...

 

[Deleted member]

starter:

battlefield
pokemon stadium
dreamland 64
fountain of dreams
yoshi story

counterpick:

final destination
brinstar
rainbow cruise
mushroom kingdom 2

this takes the standard list and swaps FD with PS, then takes KJ64 off the CP list and adds MK2.

 

[Rubyiris]

starter:

battlefield
pokemon stadium
dreamland 64
fountain of dreams
yoshi story

counterpick:

final destination
brinstar
rainbow cruise
mushroom kingdom 2

this takes the standard list and swaps FD with PS, then takes KJ64 off the CP list and adds MK2.

this would make me arguably the happiest mother****er alive. :3c

 

[UberMario]

starter:

battlefield
pokemon stadium
dreamland 64
fountain of dreams
yoshi story

counterpick:

final destination
brinstar
rainbow cruise
mushroom kingdom 2

this takes the standard list and swaps FD with PS, then takes KJ64 off the CP list and adds MK2.

Though I think the MBR stagelist is perfect, this is a close 2nd. MK2 is less luck-influenced than KJ64 *cough*Barrell*cough*, but I could see those walkoffs being abused like no tomorrow. I can't really see FD as anything other than a starter, but it'd definitely be interesting to see how the metagame would change if it became a CP.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

this is without a doubt, the WORST suggestion I have ever heard. What you propose does not at all avoid broken tactics and strategies, in fact it fosters them.

Every stage being legal with striking is absolutely ********. There are 29 stages, 28 strikes total, so 14 strikes each per players, the last stage is the starter?

Ok I play fox, my first 8 strikes are FD, battlefield, yoshies, FoD, Dreamland, Kongo, Stadium, Brinstar, then for the rest of my strikes I remove anything I don't like at my leisure.

Essentially, once I remove ALL of the good stages with my strikes, it doesn't even matter what you strike, I've already guaranteed that I start on a dumb broken piece of crap like temple. On top of that, the only available counterpicks would be stuff like Great Bay, Yoshis Iland 64, etc etc whathaveyou because of how I've chosen to strike.

Seriously, think about the implications of your suggestions.

I'll respond to this properly after I get home from school, but first thing's first...

If a character has a disadvantage against another on over half of the stage list, maybe that character is just ****. Since when did being good on a variety of stages stop being considered a positive character trait?

@Uber
I can't think of any way to abuse the walk-offs on MKII.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

@Uber
I can't think of any way to abuse the walk-offs on MKII.

You're kidding, right?

BThrow -> Shine -> Waveshine. ggs. Fox proceeds to camp until you approach him.


I also despise Brinstar. But I can accept it being legal. Even though I could see Peach being very strong there.

Honestly, I would like a stagelist that is (not sorted into CP/Starter):

Battlefield
Yoshi's Story
Final Destination
Dreamland 64
Yoshi's Island 64
Kongo Jungle 64
Fountain of Dreams
Mute City
Mushroom Kingdom II
Corneria
Green Greens
Icicle Mountain
Onett
Poké Floats
Pokémon Stadium
Peach's Castle
Rainbow Cruise
Venom
Yoshi's Island

But a lot of stages on that list are out of the question because of one or two characters, or some random broken tactic.

Walk offs and walls are bannable because of waveshining/multishining primarily.

Revised list:


Battlefield
Yoshi's Story
Final Destination
Dreamland 64
Yoshi's Island 64
Kongo Jungle 64
Fountain of Dreams
Mute City
Corneria (I think I remember somebody saying Fox can't actually lock you against the wall with shine, that you can tech or something)
Green Greens
Poké Floats (not counting this, there are too few and it's relatively easy to avoid here)
Pokémon Stadium (stage transforms)
Rainbow Cruise (moving stage)
Venom (is this the same boat as Corneria? I don't know)

And then stages would get knocked off for "excessive" runaway (as anything allowing runaway or mobility for high/top tiers seems to be accepted as bad), etc.

 

[Zankoku]

As far as spltting the stage goes, Venom is like Peach's Castle on crack.

 

[leffen]

KJ camping? What? Which matchup makes KJ unwinnable with?

Oh you clueless *******.

 

[KirbyKaze]

KJ camping is really gay (character dependent).

Kage doesn't know about it 'cuz he's the warrior. I'm also convinced it's easier to troll Ganon with most characters at a certain range and then punish his reactions, rather than actually play to time him out.

 

[Niko45]

Europe got it right (5 standard neutrals + Stadium as CP).

Only possible tweak might be to make stadium neutral and FD a CP, since FD tends to skew matchups pretty badly but Stadium can be kinda bad too so it's hard to really say there.

JPOBS is dead on about striking from all stages, and this same thing would apply on a smaller scale with the idea of just removing the "CP" aspect of the 9 currently legal stages and striking from the full 9.

Some characters are just much better on neutrals or particularly bad on CPs so a character that is good on both (fox) could play to the opposing characters weaknesses by just removing neutrals and forcing you to play somewhere gay or (at best) play on Fox's best neutral. It would impact a lot of matchups, and shift a lot of matchups that normall strike to battlefield to start striking to, say, Dreamland or something. It's not a good idea.

 

[KishPrime]

Nothing is wrong with walkoffs inherently. Never banned MK2 at FC ever.

 

[N64]

Battlefield.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nothing is wrong with walkoffs inherently. Never banned MK2 at FC ever.

^This^

JPOBS is dead on about striking from all stages, and this same thing would apply on a smaller scale with the idea of just removing the "CP" aspect of the 9 currently legal stages and striking from the full 9.

No, he isn't "dead on".

Let's take... Peach vs. Fox. I'd say that it would end up on a stage like Mushroom Kingdom I or II, or maybe Rainbow Cruise, something like that. Not that good for Fox, really.

Some characters are just much better on neutrals or particularly bad on CPs so a character that is good on both (fox) could play to the opposing characters weaknesses by just removing neutrals and forcing you to play somewhere gay or (at best) play on Fox's best neutral. It would impact a lot of matchups, and shift a lot of matchups that normall strike to battlefield to start striking to, say, Dreamland or something. It's not a good idea.

What is "normal"? The current standard? The method I am suggesting is much more similar to what the game is supposed to be played like (all stages are legal and being bad on the majority of stages is punished appropriately). Yes, it would shift a lot of match-ups, it would shift them to more accurately fit what they should be.

If we are trying to cater our rulesets around making every match-up 50:50, I'd really like to know why we don't use the in-built handicap system, or ban Fox from wave-dashing out of shine against Bowser.

You're kidding, right?

BThrow -> Shine -> Waveshine. ggs. Fox proceeds to camp until you approach him.

Back-throw doesn't combo into shine unless your opponent is awful. To get wave-shined off the walk-offs, you'd have to get in-between Fox and the walk-off. Which, given the stage layout, is pretty easy to avoid while still pressuring him.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

My list is similar to the European list. The 6 stages are YS, FoD, BF, PS, FD, DL.

I am fiddling with a 3 stage strike that I like a lot:
YS, BF, DL

If not a 3 stage strike i like a 5 strike from these stages:
YS, FoD, BF, PS, DL

FD effects match-ups more severely than PS does, regardless of randomness and spacie-johns.


edit- i should mention that "neutral" stages (aka the 6 i listed above) allows for a much more diverse character selection than any other stage in the game. This is one of the main reasons many people like the idea of going to a neutral based stage list, or at least one of mine.


edit 2- also, when going to such a small stage list stage selection becomes slim. To counteract that I originally removed stage bans, but I think removing DSR while allowing stage bans is a much better solution. This allows players to go back to the stage they won on game 1, which was chosen equally by both players. Without stage bans there was a slight deviation, for example I lost game 1 to Tom on BF, CPd YS and won and he CPd FD and won. Normally those would be both our bans (i was marth he was falcon).

 

[Manondorf]

Don't know if anyone has ever asked this before. Since we now have the capability to mod (hack) SSBM, what if someone was to modify some of the banned stages so they would be [more] fair? Does anyone feel there are stages that, with a simple modification, could be suitable for competitive play?

Just for example:
Peach's castle without banzai bill,
Poke that doesn't transform ever,
Green Greens with no blocks,
Etc. Etc.

I'm not sure to what extent SSBM can be modded so this all theoretical.

 

[MasterShake]

Don't know if anyone has ever asked this before. Since we now have the capability to mod (hack) SSBM, what if someone was to modify some of the banned stages so they would be [more] fair? Does anyone feel there are stages that, with a simple modification, could be suitable for competitive play?

Yes, but not everyone owns a wii or even has the desire to hack the game at all. A nice idea for friendlies and such but I can't see it happening at tournaments ever.

 

[KirbyKaze]

No, he isn't "dead on".

Let's take... Peach vs. Fox. I'd say that it would end up on a stage like Mushroom Kingdom I or II, or maybe Rainbow Cruise, something like that. Not that good for Fox, really.

A few questions I'd like you to address on this:

1) How do you figure it would wind up there? What sort of strikes do you think the players would make? Why do you think this way?

2) How is that not amazing for Fox?

3) Are you ********?

 

[Dimitris]

Would also be boring as hell to actually stage strike all those stages before a match every time.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think the assertion that his method more accurately reflects "how matchups should be" is kind of dumb anyway because we're already playing on something that isn't the game's default mode. SSBM's default is time, not stocks. We also axed items (which are, iirc, set to medium when pulled out of the box).

Items should be brought back. 2 minute matches should be standard. All stages should be on. This is closer to and more accurately reflects how matchups should be. It's in the game, so why should it be cut from competition?

 

[Beat!]

A shiny new era of competitive melee.

 

[Varist]

To follow that line of thinking one would need to believe that everything within the game is conducive to competition, which it isn't. 2-minute matches encourage stalls, which discourage actual fighting and implementation of each player's abilities, and that is not competition.

Items, on the other hand, are not at all bad for competition, but because we have made this game something to be played for money, emphasis on fairness for both players has shut out that section of the game.

The statement, "it's in the game, so why should it be cut from competition?" assumes that the game itself is wholly conducive to what competitive and professional players seek from competition, and the word "competition" is a perspective-dependent idea.

I understand that your post was sardonic, and you do not believe in the ideas you gave, so consider this post directed at the person you were talking to for purposes of further clarification, whom I cannot discern.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

A few questions I'd like you to address on this:

1) How do you figure it would wind up there? What sort of strikes do you think the players would make? Why do you think this way?

Fox strikes Brinstar, Mute City, and all the starters. Peach strikes all the stages where Fox just auto-****s on her due to camping, she also strikes the stages the worst stages for her in the MU. Then Fox strikes any stages he doesn't like. It's mainly up to personal preference, but insta-bans for Peach would be:

Temple, Great Bay, Big Blue, Icicle Mountain (camping)

Flatzone, Yoshi's Island (wave-shining)

Next up are the still bad, but not insta-win stages: Poke Floats, Princess Peach's Castle, Fourside, Yoshi's Island N64, Kongo Jungle N64.

But anyway, stages like:
Jungle Japes (Fox can get quick gimps, but so can Peach and the stage lay-out as well as the high ceiling help her)
Mushroom Kingdom I and II: (same as above with the gimping)
Rainbow Cruise: (helps both characters in different ways, really comes down to stage knowledge who is better there),
Onett: (cars come very regularly to help avoid wall infinites, stage-layout lets her camp)
Venom: (great camping for Peach when she has the lead, just don't get shined)
Kongo Jungle: (camping the rock is very overrated, high risk-high reward)
Brinstar Depths: (Pretty similar to KJ in-terms of the camping areas)

Aren't THAT bad in the MU. That's not even counting the starters.

2) How is that not amazing for Fox?

Have you even played on those stages? They are hardly "amazing" for Fox.

3) Are you ********?

We are discussing the rule-set for Super Smash Bros, we're all ******** here.

Would also be boring as hell to actually stage strike all those stages before a match every time.

This is a legit complaint.

I think the assertion that his method more accurately reflects "how matchups should be" is kind of dumb anyway because we're already playing on something that isn't the game's default mode. SSBM's default is time, not stocks. We also axed items (which are, iirc, set to medium when pulled out of the box).

Time mode has less depth and is less competitive, so we don't use it.

Items ruin competition, so we don't use them.

Stages add depth and as long as we properly govern how to select them, then they are competitive.

There is a very large difference in "not doing things because they are good for the game" and "not doing things because I feel like it".

My point is that it makes more sense to base character balance around the entire stage list, rather than how one person or even the whole community feels the game "should" be balanced.

 

[Strong Badam]

i really don't care if you can try to argue that your way is better
NO ONE would actually implement your stage list. ever. never. ever.