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which character has the best fair?

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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Oct 13, 2007
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A2ZOMG
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I've seen the WoP mentioned several times in this thread, but isn't the WoP just a Bairspam? For what i know its used with the Bair, not Fair, i might be wrong though.
The B-air is ideal due to its power, but I think the F-air has better duration. Basically it's one more option for Jigglypuff to use to add to her impressive aerial game.

Well, you can't necessarily judge which is best because they have variant uses.

Sheik's Fair is for power and KO ability, at low percentages it can be used to string attacks together.

Marth's Fair is good for grab openings and well spaced attacks.

Falcon's Knee has limited utilities, but has great KO potential.

These are examples mind you. Each characters fair can't be the best because the utilization of each move doesn't share many common traits. Each move has potential benifits that can enhance the chances of your character winning in a battle.

=D
No, there are horrible F-airs. Mario, Fox, Falco, Pikachu, and Pichu have F-airs that should pretty much never be used since they simply have waaaay better options and since they're rather vulnerable when using these attacks. Mario's F-air has huge startup lag which nerfs any of its real uses. The F-air is essentially Fox and Falco's shortest ranged aerial attack, and if not L-canceled has pretty bad lag I recall, and it has really long duration, meaning that you can't do anything else while using this attack which is bad if you try to ledgeguard with this, not to mention the move ledgehops very badly. Pikachu and Pichu's F-airs have no knockback, and very little priority. These are all attacks that should not be used.
 

GenoBlast

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
866
Location
St. Louis, MO
Dude, that Fair tier list is all wrong at least down at the bottom, id have to say fox and falco have the worst fairs.
Pichu's kinda sucks, but Pikachu's on the other hand can be buffered into a dsmash or grab. (works really well from the ledge.)
Ness should also be much higher.
Zelda should probably be above luigi since she only has 2 moves bair and fair and about 3 will kill someone
and theres no way in hell Mewtwo's fair is better than Jiggs or Zeldas
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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A2ZOMG
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Dude, that Fair tier list is all wrong at least down at the bottom, id have to say fox and falco have the worst fairs.
Pichu's kinda sucks, but Pikachu's on the other hand can be buffered into a dsmash or grab. (works really well from the ledge.)
Ness should also be much higher.
Zelda should probably be above luigi since she only has 2 moves bair and fair and about 3 will kill someone
and theres no way in hell Mewtwo's fair is better than Jiggs or Zeldas
Did you read my tier on page 5? I dunno, I don't use Pikachu and Pichu's F-airs. Fox and Falco actually have some knockback and priority on their F-airs to my knowledge, but Pichu and Pika F-airs have zero range and bad priority. Pikachu's not getting any grabs unless it's against Bowser or DK btw since his grab range sucks soooo horribly, it's worse than Pichu's actually. D-Smash, I dunno, but I personally put Pichu's D-smash over Pika's due to it's high horizontal knockback. But yeah, since their F-airs have pretty much no range and knockback, you're asking to be punished if you use them. I dunno about you though, seen any videos of Pika's f-air used well? Anyway, here's my tier. Comment and critique.

-Top-
Marth
Sheik
Bowser

-High-
Jigglypuff
Ness
G&W
Falcon
Ganon
Zelda
Luigi
Yoshi

-Middle-
Doc
Kirby
Y Link
Link
Roy
Peach
Mewtwo
Ice Climbers

-Low-
Mario
Samus (I'm starting to think this one should be a tad higher, because of it's good priority and low startup lag.)
DK
Falco
Fox

-Bottom-
Pikachu
Pichu
 

victra♥

crystal skies
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Jan 20, 2007
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14,275
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Edmonton
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victra#0
Bowser's fair is great and all, but in comparison to the other Fairs, i don't think it should be placed as high as you have it. (Don't ban me Gimpy.)
Other then that, it's fairly accurate. Maybe have Ness under Zelda, and Mewtwo above the Links.
 

Egret

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
234
I'm sorry I think I don't know anything about this game, nvm.
 

Black_jo

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Dec 15, 2005
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Canada, Longueuil, near Grande-allée

thaxceptional1

Smash Lord
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Feb 24, 2007
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Pluto
Did you read my tier on page 5? I dunno, I don't use Pikachu and Pichu's F-airs. Fox and Falco actually have some knockback and priority on their F-airs to my knowledge, but Pichu and Pika F-airs have zero range and bad priority. Pikachu's not getting any grabs unless it's against Bowser or DK btw since his grab range sucks soooo horribly, it's worse than Pichu's actually. D-Smash, I dunno, but I personally put Pichu's D-smash over Pika's due to it's high horizontal knockback. But yeah, since their F-airs have pretty much no range and knockback, you're asking to be punished if you use them. I dunno about you though, seen any videos of Pika's f-air used well? Anyway, here's my tier. Comment and critique.

-Top-
Marth
Sheik
Bowser

-High-
Jigglypuff
Ness
G&W
Falcon
Ganon
Zelda
Luigi
Yoshi

-Middle-
Doc
Kirby
Y Link
Link
Roy
Peach
Mewtwo
Ice Climbers

-Low-
Mario
Samus (I'm starting to think this one should be a tad higher, because of it's good priority and low startup lag.)
DK
Falco
Fox

-Bottom-
Pikachu
Pichu
kirby should definitely be at high. bowser shouldnt be at top.
 

woah42

Smash Cadet
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Oct 7, 2007
Messages
35
Definitely between the knee and Sheik's. They are both powerful and send opponents far.
 
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Long Beach,California
The B-air is ideal due to its power, but I think the F-air has better duration. Basically it's one more option for Jigglypuff to use to add to her impressive aerial game.



No, there are horrible F-airs. Mario, Fox, Falco, Pikachu, and Pichu have F-airs that should pretty much never be used since they simply have waaaay better options and since they're rather vulnerable when using these attacks. Mario's F-air has huge startup lag which nerfs any of its real uses. The F-air is essentially Fox and Falco's shortest ranged aerial attack, and if not L-canceled has pretty bad lag I recall, and it has really long duration, meaning that you can't do anything else while using this attack which is bad if you try to ledgeguard with this, not to mention the move ledgehops very badly. Pikachu and Pichu's F-airs have no knockback, and very little priority. These are all attacks that should not be used.

I'm not saying that there aren't horrible Fairs, i'm just stating an example amoung the ones that can be utilized well; Sheik's, Marth's and Falcon's are just examples of which are good.
 

Yoshi'stheBombers7

Smash Journeyman
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Oct 30, 2007
Messages
436
Location
NH ... >_<
-Top-
Marth
Sheik
Bowser

-High-
Jigglypuff
Ness
G&W
Falcon
Ganon
Zelda
Luigi
Yoshi

-Middle-
Doc
Kirby
Y Link
Link
Roy
Peach
Mewtwo
Ice Climbers

-Low-
Mario
Samus (I'm starting to think this one should be a tad higher, because of it's good priority and low startup lag.)
DK
Falco
Fox

-Bottom-
Pikachu
Pichu
Falcon the top of High, under him Bowser, and under that Gannondorf. Jiggly's Fair should be in the Top.
Just what I think.
 

ChronoSquare

Smash Ace
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Sep 2, 2003
Messages
854
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Tempe, AZ
The thing that surprises me the most is how everyone's so quick to put Peach's f-air down as horrible...

Peach's fair has a lot of wind-up lag, but the knockback it does pays off for it - and with Peach she has float-canceling mindgames to play around with, like the turnip-float approach-float-canceled fair approach.

I see Peach using fair FAR more than I see Doc using his fair... A2ZOMG, Peach should at LEAST be at Doc's level within the middle tier, if above Doc and not in the high tier.
 

Dragon_Hawk

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Oct 26, 2006
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Location
Toronto, Canada
kirby should definitely be at high. bowser shouldnt be at top.
lol wtf Kirby's fair is like insanely mediocre it's only used because it's better than most of the junk in his moveset.

best fair is imho Marth's given that Marth's fair singlehandedly ***** most characters' approach options with its range/priority, combos into itself (and spikes and f-smashes and d-tilts and grabs and whole lot of crap), gimps the hell out of space animals and is ridiculously versatile. it also has almost non-existent lag.
 

BrianM

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
232
Location
Alma, Michigan
The thing that surprises me the most is how everyone's so quick to put Peach's f-air down as horrible...

Peach's fair has a lot of wind-up lag, but the knockback it does pays off for it - and with Peach she has float-canceling mindgames to play around with, like the turnip-float approach-float-canceled fair approach.

I see Peach using fair FAR more than I see Doc using his fair... A2ZOMG, Peach should at LEAST be at Doc's level within the middle tier, if above Doc and not in the high tier.
I totally agree. I'm not saying it is more useful than Marth's by any means, but I was shaking my head when people put her down as being at the very bottom. I'd argue that it's more applicable than Sheik's fair as well. Hell, I'd cry if Peach didn't have the same fair in Brawl, because I use it so much with spacing, particularly with people recovering from the ledge, and the knockback off the stage has given me a lot of wins combined with turnips, d-smash, and b-airs.
 

A2ZOMG

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Okay, here's where I agree and disagree about stuff.

The thing that surprises me the most is how everyone's so quick to put Peach's f-air down as horrible...

Peach's fair has a lot of wind-up lag, but the knockback it does pays off for it - and with Peach she has float-canceling mindgames to play around with, like the turnip-float approach-float-canceled fair approach.

I see Peach using fair FAR more than I see Doc using his fair... A2ZOMG, Peach should at LEAST be at Doc's level within the middle tier, if above Doc and not in the high tier.
Yes indeed. I'll move that one up. When I think about it, it's about equal to Doc's f-air I guess. Doc likewise pill spams into combos, and his move I think does more damage and knockback, although I think on the other hand it's a tad easier to combo into Peach's f-air. *shrug* Moved them both to the bottom of high tier slot.

kirby should definitely be at high. bowser shouldnt be at top.
Moved him up very slightly. I still don't think he's quite got a high-tier f-air, although his is above average certainly. Moved Yoshi down below his, since well, it has significant startup and doesn't really send people anywhere unless you try to spike someone with it, which is meteor cancelable, not to mention dangerous for Yoshi considering his awkward recovery, but it's still viable considering the potential of DJC.

And Bowser literally does have a top tier F-air. Comes out faster than the majority of moves in the game, has HUGE range, almost comparable to Marth's F-air. It also sets up for what Bowser does best, and that is ledgeguarding, thanks to this move's great knockback. Bowser himself isn't that good, but this f-air just happens to be waaay too good considering how much it helps put the match in Bowser's favor.

Falcon the top of High, under him Bowser, and under that Gannondorf. Jiggly's Fair should be in the Top.
Just what I think.
Eh, why not. I'll move it up. At least relative to Ness's. Ness's can't kill, even though it does make a nice a approach and a nice defensive tactic. Ganon's however has either the same range, or outranges it, so I'm moving that above Ness's. Bowser's f-air is a lot more practical than Falcon's though. Jigglypuff, yeah maybe. From reading the guide to her, it's the other part of her Wall of Pain, so yeah. G&W's F-air is better though. Comes out with negligible lag, really REALLY big disjointed hitbox (not as big as Marth's though. D= ) that lingers and when sweetspotted does lots of damage and knockback.

Bowser's fair is great and all, but in comparison to the other Fairs, i don't think it should be placed as high as you have it. (Don't ban me Gimpy.)
Other then that, it's fairly accurate. Maybe have Ness under Zelda, and Mewtwo above the Links.
Bowser's f-air and Fortress are godly, unlike most of him. Bowser's f-air is faster than most attacks, and has great range. Great knockback sets up Bowser for ledgeguarding, which he's top tier at doing if anything. Basically it's the kind of move that makes you actually have to fear Bowser. Bowser is all EXAGGERATED strengths and weaknesses, and his F-air is no exception to his exaggerated strengths.

Zelda's F-air is situational and needs to be sweetspotted. It has somewhat similar problems to Mario's F-smash, since a good chunk of Zelda's moveset is close range, and not to mention EVERYONE is anticipating a Zelda f-air (or b-air). So yeah, it's not better than Ness's, and it's not spammable like Ness's either. Mewtwo yeah, his F-air comes out faster and gets vertikills which are better than horizontal kills IMO. Dunno, I guess I'll move that up.

So yeah, I hope you guys enjoy. =P
-Top-
Marth
Sheik
Bowser
Jigglypuff

-High-
G&W
Falcon
Ganon
Ness
Zelda
Luigi
Doc = Peach

-Middle-
Kirby
Yoshi
Mewtwo
Y Link
Link
Roy (not sure about this one. Any pseudo Ken Combos out there? speed+range >> the Link f-airs so...)
Ice Climbers

-Low-
Mario
Samus
DK
Falco
Fox

-Bottom-
Pikachu
Pichu
 

BrandonOwnageking

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Aug 12, 2007
Messages
396
Location
SoCal Sandiego
i could have sworn i commented already whatever id say shiek because its quick and stronge although i like marths because its good for setting up combos
 

GenoBlast

Smash Ace
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Dec 18, 2005
Messages
866
Location
St. Louis, MO
Did you read my tier on page 5? I dunno, I don't use Pikachu and Pichu's F-airs. Fox and Falco actually have some knockback and priority on their F-airs to my knowledge, but Pichu and Pika F-airs have zero range and bad priority. Pikachu's not getting any grabs unless it's against Bowser or DK btw since his grab range sucks soooo horribly, it's worse than Pichu's actually. D-Smash, I dunno, but I personally put Pichu's D-smash over Pika's due to it's high horizontal knockback. But yeah, since their F-airs have pretty much no range and knockback, you're asking to be punished if you use them. I dunno about you though, seen any videos of Pika's f-air used well? Anyway, here's my tier. Comment and critique.
I see whats your saying, but just because an attack doesn't have much knockback doesn't mean its no good. Fox's Dair is very similar and I think its one of his bests moves. I guess its because I play with one of the best Pikachus in the nation and he ALWAYS!! uses it and it works really well. Fair to Dsmash is almost the same as dair to shine with fox and its a lot easier to grab after an fair than you think.

Also , I still think Fox and Falco fairs are worse. Just because it has more knock back, I dont think justifies it as a better move than pika's. Pichu's on the other hand just really sucks hardcore. Its like 4 dmg on yourself every time you use it......

Pika vids
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qaUd9To_Sjs
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8h6yxVS1nPs&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-CtHmEO5tUY&feature=related
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
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Dec 25, 2002
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27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
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choknater
ice climbers belong in the low tier of fairs

pikachu's fair is awesome what are you noobs talking about

pichu's is equally effective but if you miss you take a crapload of damage. sometimes i do even more damage to myself than the opponent. but its priority and setup ability is still good so whatever.

anyways, it's good to know fox can be bad at something LOL

brianM your sig is hilarious
 

Cereal Rabbit

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 13, 2007
Messages
1,536
Location
Davis, CA
So yeah, I hope you guys enjoy. =P
-Top-
Marth
Sheik
Bowser
Jigglypuff

-High-
G&W
Falcon
Ganon
Ness
Zelda
Luigi
Doc = Peach

-Middle-
Kirby
Yoshi
Mewtwo
Y Link
Link
Roy (not sure about this one. Any pseudo Ken Combos out there? speed+range >> the Link f-airs so...)
Ice Climbers

-Low-
Mario
Samus
DK
Falco
Fox

-Bottom-
Pikachu
Pichu
Falcon's Knee is God Tier.
 

_SSnakeKen

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
33
Using AR
I have tested the usable ability of the fair i have accounted the effectivity in combo creativity also in opening/defense and in trajectory output

Cpt . falcon
Sheik
Yoshi
DR.mario
Ganondorf
Falco
Fox
DonkeyKong
Ice Climbers
Mario
Peach
Ness
Zelda
Game and Watch
Browser
Samus
Marth
Link
luigi
Kirby
Young link
Mewtwo
Jigglypuff
Pikachu
Roy
Pichu
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
-Top-
Marth
Sheik
Bowser
Jigglypuff

-High-
G&W
Falcon
Ganon
Ness
Zelda
Luigi
Doc = Peach

-Middle-
Kirby
Yoshi
Mewtwo
Y Link
Link
Roy (not sure about this one. Any pseudo Ken Combos out there? speed+range >> the Link f-airs so...)
Ice Climbers

-Low-
Mario
Samus
DK
Falco
Fox

-Bottom-
Pikachu
Pichu
Samus could go up quite a bit. You have to keep in mind that her fair is not in any way a kill move, but it is one hell of a combo move. An ledgehopped and L-canceled fair almost always leads into something else, and it almost always has a high-priority follow-up when used in the air. It's got great priority, low start-up lag, and not much wind down. It's definitely one of her more spammable moves.

Also, Knee for God Tier.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Using AR
I have tested the usable ability of the fair i have accounted the effectivity in combo creativity also in opening/defense and in trajectory output
so...

you're saying that IC fair is more usable than Marth's fair and allows better combos?

lol.

your list is bad.

why do people keep upping kirby's fair. it's par on a good day. it's not trash, admittedly, but not that great either. the only reason kirby players use his fair is because aside of kirby's tilts, bair and fair his entire moveset is trash.
 

A2ZOMG

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A2ZOMG
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Psh... Samus' flamethrower ftw! No... seriously knee>all
No srsly, knee is overrated. EVERYONE knows that it is Captain Falcon's most important finisher, so naturally nobody is going to be hit by it easily since it's got rather pathetic range, and is situational due to short range and necessity to sweetspot it. You have to combo into it. It makes a bad approach, which is perhaps the one of the most important tactics to be good at in Melee, especially for Captain Falcon who fights at close range. Captain Falcon isn't particularly good at approaching either since his ground game is just so-so. His aerial attacks tend to be very situational, as the F-air and D-air have significant startup lag. His B-air needs to be sweetspotted, and his N-air you should ideally hit with the second kick. Captain Falcon requires mindgames to approach effectively, where many characters have a much easier time using a Sex kick which unlike Falcon's B-air doesn't go to the extreme where if you don't sweetspot it it sucks.

Point is the Knee is very situational unlike a lot of F-airs. It's not even his only kill option, since he can ledgeguard with U-airs, get a few kills with B-airs, spike with the D-air, ledgeguard with U-tilt, and occasionally using Smash attacks or Falcon Punch. There are a number of F-airs that IMO do better at specifically putting the match in your favor. Saying Falcon's knee is god tier would mean several more f-airs like G&W's, Zelda's, and Ganon's would also be god tier IMO.

Falcon's Knee is God Tier.
O RLY?

Using AR
I have tested the usable ability of the fair i have accounted the effectivity in combo creativity also in opening/defense and in trajectory output

Cpt . falcon
Sheik
Yoshi
DR.mario
Ganondorf
Falco
Fox
DonkeyKong
Ice Climbers
Mario
Peach
Ness
Zelda
Game and Watch
Browser
Samus
Marth
Link
luigi
Kirby
Young link
Mewtwo
Jigglypuff
Pikachu
Roy
Pichu
The first thing I noticed is how you put Falco, Fox, and Donkey Kong above Marth. Unless if somehow they can beat out the Ken Combo, which is VERY UNLIKELY impossible, yeah no. That just doesn't work.

Samus could go up quite a bit. You have to keep in mind that her fair is not in any way a kill move, but it is one hell of a combo move. An ledgehopped and L-canceled fair almost always leads into something else, and it almost always has a high-priority follow-up when used in the air. It's got great priority, low start-up lag, and not much wind down. It's definitely one of her more spammable moves.

Also, Knee for God Tier.
First point, I'll agree and see what I can do. Second point **** no since it's very situational and anything BUT spammable.

I see whats your saying, but just because an attack doesn't have much knockback doesn't mean its no good. Fox's Dair is very similar and I think its one of his bests moves. I guess its because I play with one of the best Pikachus in the nation and he ALWAYS!! uses it and it works really well. Fair to Dsmash is almost the same as dair to shine with fox and its a lot easier to grab after an fair than you think.

Also , I still think Fox and Falco fairs are worse. Just because it has more knock back, I dont think justifies it as a better move than pika's. Pichu's on the other hand just really sucks hardcore. Its like 4 dmg on yourself every time you use it......

Pika vids
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qaUd9To_Sjs
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8h6yxVS1nPs&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-CtHmEO5tUY&feature=related
Oh well, I guess those videos don't lie. But I still think other characters, even DK and Mario have slightly better uses with their F-airs. *moves Pika to bottom of Low tier, moves Fox and Falco to bottom tier LOL*

Yeah whatever. Keep the feedback coming. I don't claim to know EVERYTHING about f-airs. =P

Top-
Marth
Sheik
Bowser
Jigglypuff

-High-
G&W
Falcon (I'm not moving this any higher srsly but if this move works for you, lol great)
Ganon
Ness
Zelda
Luigi
Doc = Peach

-Middle-
Kirby
Yoshi
Mewtwo
Samus
Y Link
Link
Roy

-Low-
Ice Climbers (moved them into low tier since I wanted at least four people in there. ><)
Mario
DK
Pikachu

-Bottom-
Pichu
Falco
Fox
 

GenoBlast

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
866
Location
St. Louis, MO
The knee is NOT overrated a successful Dair at like 60 percent usually means death. Darkrain will never miss the opportunity and neither will most good players. You can nair into knee or even uair into knee without touching the ground.

And I really dont see what you mean about falcon's ground game being so bad. he has the best dashdance in the game not to mention fastest runner, nair has good priority and is good for approching and he can mookwalk which makes him more difficult to predict. If anyone could throw out a fair randomly and have it connect, falcon would have a better chance than most characters.

Im not saying his is the best but hes up there with Marth and Shiek thats for sure. Bowsers and G&W are really good too but theres no way Falcon is lower than them.

Not to mention EVERY character in the game can be Kneed out of a throw at certian percents regardless of DI. works on jiggs at any percent it just depends on what throw you use.

Another thing, ledge hop knee is AMAZING. using the reverse knee as you get up from the ledge can be used to edgeguard. works really well against space animals, falcon and Shieks.

Random Falcon vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJMvy_W_riE <--- Watch
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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Messages
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Location
RPV, California
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A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
The knee is NOT overrated a successful Dair at like 60 percent usually means death. Darkrain will never miss the opportunity and neither will most good players. You can nair into knee or even uair into knee without touching the ground.

And I really don't see what you mean about falcon's ground game being so bad. he has the best dashdance in the game not to mention fastest runner, nair has good priority and is good for approaching and he can moonwalk which makes him more difficult to predict. If anyone could throw out a fair randomly and have it connect, falcon would have a better chance than most characters.

Im not saying his is the best but hes up there with Marth and Sheik thats for sure. Bowser's and G&W are really good too but theres no way Falcon is lower than them.

Not to mention EVERY character in the game can be Kneed out of a throw at certain percents regardless of DI. works on jiggs at any percent it just depends on what throw you use.

Another thing, ledge hop knee is AMAZING. using the reverse knee as you get up from the ledge can be used to edgeguard. works really well against space animals, falcon and Sheiks.

Random Falcon vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJMvy_W_riE <--- Watch
Eh, good point. I can't exactly disagree that there are multiple ways for Falcon to set up for a knee. Great Falcon video btw. Those two really knew what they were doing and when to use their knees. =P

But as I was saying, Falcon isn't particularly good at approaching. His strategy is generally faking out his opponent, although I guess his n-air happens to be one of his better approaches. But I mean mindgames apply on both sides, and really if it comes down to approaching by spamming an attack, the N-air is almost Falcon's ONLY option, because his dash attack, tilts, and Smashes are all in all just okay, and the D-air has startup lag, same with the F-air, and the B-air isn't a proper sex kick unfortunately, so either it works, or it fails badly. In terms of using attacks to approach, Falcon is surprisingly limited, so faking out enemies is very key for him, where someone like Peach, spamming the Dash attack works incredibly well by itself. So Falcon may have the most interesting mindgame options, but we need to be aware that the opponent to Falcon can be perfectly aware of his mindgames too, and they may have more spammable attacks than Falcon to go against his rather awkward approachability. 1 predicted N-air probably equals a free grab against Falcon if he doesn't space himself well. Approaching is a big deal for Falcon, considering how a good number of characters have projectiles, such as Falco, Sheik, Doc, Peach, Link, Mario, yeah. Approaching as I see it is overall is a problem for Falcon that he needs to minimize carefully with mindgames more than other characters. And the fact that his Forward Aerial (and most of his other attacks) is unreliable for approaches doesn't really help his case, I mean by default the direction you will normally DI in order to approach your enemy is forward, so it helps a bit if your forward aerial can be used reliably in approach, which in Falcon's case it can't.

But anyway, you've got me thinking about the Knee a bit more. It's certainly an excellent combo finisher, and then there is the infamous Triple Knee combo. And yes, it ledgehops particularly well. I'm not really decided on moving it up yet, and I hope that more people will contribute to the discussion on why things should be moved up or down on the tiers.
 

Endless Nightmares

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The knee IS overrated just a little. It's a ****ing AWESOME move, a great combo finisher, and satisfying to land, but it is NOT the best fair.
 
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