Who are the most difficult characters in general?

[Rekeah]

Everyone knows some characters are more difficult to master than other characters. Those same characters may be hard to pick up in the beginning as well, while some are so easy to pick up yet hard to master, that there is a visible gap between the experts and the casual players.

Who are the easiest characters in general? (to master and to pick up)
I would assume many low-tier characters are easy overall because of their lack of potential setups and useful strategies to counter specific move-sets. This is something that is inevitable when it comes to characters who aren't as good when compared to higher-tier characters.

Who are the hardest characters in general? (you can easily tell a nub from a pro)
The one with the most advanced strategies that are actually useful in battle will prove to be more useful than one with few strategies. Also, it's common sense to presume that projectiles will add to difficulty of the specific character using them, mainly because projectiles have a certain characteristic of increasing the amount of situations that can occur (yomi).

I want everybody's opinion on the difficulty of characters and I would like for you to categorize them in three groups: easy, normal, and hard. I'd appreciate it if you can also point out any characteristics from the characters you will mention.

I should also point out that most characters (more than half of the cast) should be considered medium, otherwise it will throw off the entire system and it will be unbalanced.

I'll start:
Metaknight: Medium.
He cannot be considered "n00bish" or "anybody can play MK", because he's a little difficult to master. Yes, I understand how easy it is to spam Dsmash, but just how easy is it to spam tornado? It can land you in a helpless state and put you in a position of terrible punishment if used incorrectly. The rest of his B moves need some practice to master in tournament situations, especially his Shuttle Loop. His lack of combos and easy-approach is why I would consider him to be medium, even though you might use most of his moves in any given situation.

Diddy Kong: Hard.
Without a doubt, he should be considered a hard character to master because of his bananas. I'm sure everybody has seen ADHD and the potential that Diddy has to wipe the floor against his opponents. Also, he's not a very n00b-friendly character, since misuse of his bananas can completely turn the tide in the opponents favor. All I really have to say is "bananas" and "ADHD", and you should know why I consider Diddy to be hard.

Ice Climbers: Hard.
Do I really have to discuss the iceys? Over four different types of chaingrabs, one of them being subject to change in three different ways for certain situations, including the fact that each chaingrab is frame-specific... Oh, I also forgot to mention their desyncing capabilities... Yea, Definitely hard.

King Dedede: Easy.
I know many people might argue with me against this, but putting his infinites aside, his chaingrab is easy to master. There is only one option for chaingrabbing with Dedede, compared to Falco as he has many options. There aren't many uses for his smashes, and he doesn't have many strategies to win besides his grab game and his aerials. Speaking about his grab grame, it comes nowhere in difficulty as Falco. Sure, I like the amount of jumps he has and what he can do with Dair and Uair, but... would he really be considered Medium or higher? His lack of advanced strategies doesn't help either.

So let me know what you guys think of the rest of the cast.

Also, I think this can be considered a 'top ten most difficult characters' thread now, since we got enough information from smashers other than myself to at least make a rough draft.


Top Ten Hardest Characters

1. Olimar
2. Ice Climbers
3. Diddy Kong
4. Marth
5. Falco
6. Pikachu
7. ZSS
8. Toon Link
9. Pokemon Trainer
10. Samus

Let me know who is missing from the list and who you think should be replaced if that is the case. (Because giving me a name without suggesting who to remove isn't enough)

 

[Kunx990]

Snake: Hard
You need to learn to DI like a god, escape every GC in the game, keep track of your gernades, C4s, mines, live though a grab out of a cypher, tech godly, wavebonce, perfect spacing, zoning, not stale utilt, and most importantly BOX GIMP!

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Low tiers in general are difficult to play well.

 

[Rekeah]

Low tiers in general are difficult to play well.

one reason why half the low tiers are in their current position is because of their lack of strategies and setups to compete in tournament situations. compare someone of low tier (falcon or ike) to high tier (falco or pikachu) and you'll realize that many high tier characters have, overall, more advanced techs than low tier characters.

they might be difficult to play, but compare them to the entire cast and see which low tier really stands out from the high tiers in terms of difficulty. a few, i believe.

 

[Kunx990]

Olimar : Medium
Easy to use but has bad recovery and many people can't seem to multitask when fighting so Pikmin management might be hard for them, or for people who spend 6 hours working out down b.

Marth : Easy
Combo friendly, just need to remember where the tip is but that make Marth go from Medium to easy after that.

Pokémon Trainer : Hard
Squritle and Charizard carrying Ivysaur but it is mastering 3 Characters at one. Squritle and Charizard can old their own ground but Ivysaur is low on the *** tier list for a reason.

 

[Rekeah]

Olimar : Medium
Easy to use but has bad recovery and many people can't seem to multitask when fighting so Pikmin management might be hard for them, or for people who spend 6 hours working out down b.

Marth : Easy
Combo friendly, just need to remember where the tip is but that make Marth go from Medium to easy after that.

Pokémon Trainer : Hard
Squritle and Charizard carry Ivysaur but it is mastering 3 Characters at one.

Olimar has a lot of potential, and one can only wish to memorize EVERYTHING about each type of pikmin WHILE using them to their utmost potential in a fight. that means that the ultimate god of Olimar will know the order of his first 6 pikmin (or however much he has at the time) and know how to use each one in successive strikes or throws, WHILE using mindgames and such that every character uses. so is he really medium? I'm not sure, but I think he should be hard.

Marth DOES seem easy, but if you go to the marth forums, they have over 20 guides on him! So I'm not sure of that either.

And if your'e going to say that PKT is hard because of the 3 characters, then i'd agree with you. But in this case, I think each pokemon should deserve its own ranking for now.

 

[Greave]

Marth I would actually consider medium. Despite the fact that his moves are quite basic (in terms of how they work and what they do), getting the necessary tip on all of his attacks takes practice. Zoning well with him and spacing properly aren't things that can be utilized at first pick-up. You use every single one of his attacks, and for multiple purposes, so his options are quite vast. Add to that the momentum-altering properties of his DB and SB, and some pretty strange ATs and you have a character that takes time and patience to use.

Luigi = medium. His floatiness forces you to take a different fighting posture than most characters. You're forced to spend much of your time in the air, so if you're used to characters like Marth, then it may take awhile to adopt a Luigi mindset. That being said, each of Luigi's moves generally have few purposes, which makes selecting an option for a situation a simple matter. However, his movement and combos can get a bit technical, and they take a good knowledge of Luigi to pull off effectively.

Kirby is a scrumptious piece of cake. His B moves might require you to practice their timing and usage, but once you learn how to bAir, you can handle yourself well with Kirby. The higher levels of Kirby play, though, require some control-stick intensive combos. But a day or two of practice is really all that's required to get it smooth.

Samus is Difficult. Missile Canceling and its followups take quite a bit of experience to utilize effectively, learning the several different versions of the AT, and when would be optimal to use them. All of her projectiles can be used to set up traps and mindgames, which increases her options drastically. On top of that, overcoming her lack of killing power takes a lot of effort and serious gimpage.

 

[Kunx990]

Marth DOES seem easy, but if you go to the marth forums, they have over 20 guides on him! So I'm not sure of that either.

Snake has a guide for everything too so it's just based on how the players feel they should talk about their characters.

 

[Kunx990]

Mario: Medium

Play him like Luigi and you should do well other then the fact that your down b is for rofl gimping and not recovering.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Rofl, Marth is probably the hardest character to play in this game.

Technicality should not be in consideration for the difficultly of playing a character, since you can learn it in the comfort of your own solitude, and nothing in Brawl is so difficult that it takes more than a few sittings to learn to an applicable point.

Your wording is strange. It's fairly easy to assume based on your opinions that you probably haven't even mastered your OWN character. "Mastery" is something that is fairly constant for all characters in my opinion, since Brawl is less about characters and more about predictions and reads. The measure for difficulty in my opinion is how much leeway your character has in punishing and execution.

Metaknight cannot possibly be considered anything but easy to play since it takes all of 10 games with him until you realize that even if you make a mistake every other attack, you're probably still in a better place than a Link who spent a month perfecting his craft.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

I'd say Link is the hardest character, he's got many important ATs and that awful recovery doesn't help him.

 

[Variable]

Link being bad, and hard to use are two very different things. As a whole Link in general is an all around pretty easy character to use, It's just hard for him to win against better players because he's not very good. Just because a character is bad doesn't mean he's hard to use...

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

What he said. Zelda, for instance, is very one dimensional. Land her lightning kicks. GG.

 

[Rekeah]

Rofl, Marth is probably the hardest character to play in this game.

Technicality should not be in consideration for the difficultly of playing a character, since you can learn it in the comfort of your own solitude, and nothing in Brawl is so difficult that it takes more than a few sittings to learn to an applicable point.

Your wording is strange. It's fairly easy to assume based on your opinions that you probably haven't even mastered your OWN character. "Mastery" is something that is fairly constant for all characters in my opinion, since Brawl is less about characters and more about predictions and reads. The measure for difficulty in my opinion is how much leeway your character has in punishing and execution.

Metaknight cannot possibly be considered anything but easy to play since it takes all of 10 games with him until you realize that even if you make a mistake every other attack, you're probably still in a better place than a Link who spent a month perfecting his craft.

Ok so I'm not sure if what you're trying to prove with the first paragraph, as it is clear that technicality is related to difficulty. That is something that is obvious. You are also assuming that everything in brawl, when related to the characters, can be learned in an even rate with any character, and that is just not true. It doesn't take the same amount of time to learn how to thunderstorm cancel with Ganondorf as it does to learn how to chaingrab infinite with Ice Climbers.

Second, whether I have mastered my main or not wouldn't make my arguement invalid as long as the reasons I give are sound. Mastery is not a constant with all characters, as each character have different scales of progressing through them.

Also, If that scenario you pointed out is true (about an MK player who played 10 games with him is better than a Link player who spent a month mastering him)... I never said that MK would win because he's better in general. I said that the top half of the tier list are, overall, more advanced than the lower half because those are the people who are more extensively researched. Those higher tier characters above the middle mark have proven that they are there for a purpose, and one reason for that being is that they have more advanced techniques in general. I did say there were exceptions to what I said, and I mentioned projectiles. Link has three of them, which obviously makes him unpredictable in the hands of someone who mastered him. Whether he still loses a planking MK doesn't mean that MK is harder to play with. You're twisting my words here. In fact, the example that you guys gave of Link is perfect because it shows just how much you understood my original post.

Low tiers in general are difficult to play well.

If there is to be a medium to be considered in which most character are normal in difficulty while the game, overall, might be whatever you want it to be (easy to master, hard, w/e) then I find it hard to believe that low tiers in general are hard to play. Then that would mean that they are harder to play than mid and high tier characters, unless most characters are just hard in general, and that really isn't helping out much.

 

[dahighii]

I'm an Olimain (no way, right?) and I'd have to say that playing Olimar is pretty difficult. As a couple ppl before me said, Olimars have to keep track of who's in their line next and after that and so on. For instance, if I'm recovering against a Metaknight, I should fair with yellow pikmin, uair with red, and throw purple ones, and that's pretty simple as pikmin management goes. And since each pikmin kills effectively in a different way (some of them not in any way at all) and certain types of deaths work against certain characters, getting a KO can be a bit of a chore against good players, as whiffing a KO means you have to either go for a less viable option or wait til that pikmin comes up to bat again.

EDIT: Oh yea, I'd give him an easy to pick up, but hard to master and use effectively.

 

[Rekeah]

I'm an Olimain (no way, right?) and I'd have to say that playing Olimar is pretty difficult. As a couple ppl before me said, Olimars have to keep track of who's in their line next and after that and so on. For instance, if I'm recovering against a Metaknight, I should fair with yellow pikmin, uair with red, and throw purple ones, and that's pretty simple as pikmin management goes. And since each pikmin kills effectively in a different way (some of them not in any way at all) and certain types of deaths work against certain characters, getting a KO can be a bit of a chore against good players, as whiffing a KO means you have to either go for a less viable option or wait til that pikmin comes up to bat again.

EDIT: Oh yea, I'd give him an easy to pick up, but hard to master and use effectively.

hmm ok. I also think Olimar should be in the HARD category. It also helps that M2K believes that Ollimar should be in A tier, so yea.

 

[Roie]

Yeah well people vs olimar, you need to watch what is next in line too, so that argument doesn't apply.

 

[Rekeah]

Yeah well people vs olimar, you need to watch what is next in line too, so that argument doesn't apply.

Not really, lol. Of course that argument applies to Olimar and ONLY the Olimar player. If you can pay attention to the pikmin and how they are being used by your opponent, then good for you. But it is the idea of mastering your pikmin and paying attention to the game so you don't get hit that really makes Olimar stand out. "watching what is next in line" as the opponent of the Olimar player doesn't mean that my argument is invalid.

Rofl, Marth is probably the hardest character to play in this game.

Oh yea, I almost forgot. Explain to me how Marth is the hardest character in the game.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

In high levels of play, where people know how to space, and if they're not totally ignorant to the Marth matchup, you might find it very difficult to get a kill. Marth's gameplay is entirely based around his fair walls, juggles, and racking on damage with Side+B, so you, as an opponent, generally know what he's going to do.

He's difficult to kill with because he has to tipper if you DI. Has to. And you, as a knowledgeable person, would definitely be trying to get into his dead zone, which is right next to him. So in total, you cannot play Marth aggressively in the long run. He must resort to a game of cat and mouse, finding opportunities and then retreating. Aggressive Marths get grabbed, punished, and probably won't be able to kill until close to 200%.

He's really easy to play if people go overly aggro on the Marth, or if they suck at airdodging, or do so predictably, though. You really see his flaws (they aren't really flaws, experience lets you overcome them) when people start to camp you.

EDIT: In fact, I've found that the only way to even hit people with lots of Marth exp is to intentionally bait airdodges, read the direction they move, then follow up with another aerial (generally Nair or Uair). And in general, fair is the only aerial that's fast enough to do this. This gets pretty aggravating after a while, but it makes him a pretty satisfying character to play.

 

[Nova9000]

The most difficult characters...IMO it's a toss up between a few characters:

ICs obviously. Their CGs require precise timing and to set up for a grab is a chore alone, especially when the opponent expects them to try and land a grab. Add the fact that their only solid aerials are Uair and Bair, and you have a task on your hands playing with them. But if you pick them up, even MKs fear a grab by the duo.

Diddy. The bananas open up a plethora of possibilities and with them he can control so much space. However, it reqiires a lot more than GT the naners to be good. And just like with the ICs, playing a one-dimensional game when your opponents expect that is a recipe for failure. So if you cannot fight w/o bananas, then you're screwed. But if you manage to acquire the knowledge needed to master Diddy, then you picked up something great.

Olimar. The previous posts elaborate on why he's so difficult to master so I don't have to input much. But Olimar requires a LOT of focus on him and the Pikmin alone, as well as a know-how of how to use each of them. This alone is adequate reason enough to make him difficult, but factor in timing his whistle and recovery, and only the mentally dilligent can be successful with Olimar. He's one of the best characters for a reason, and if you learn him you'll see why.

These are my votes for the most difficult character. I would also mention PT, but I think these 3 are a lot more advanced than he is.

 

[dahighii]

The most difficult characters...IMO it's a toss up between a few characters:

ICs obviously. Their CGs require precise timing and to set up for a grab is a chore alone, especially when the opponent expects them to try and land a grab. Add the fact that their only solid aerials are Uair and Bair, and you have a task on your hands playing with them. But if you pick them up, even MKs fear a grab by the duo.

Diddy. The bananas open up a plethora of possibilities and with them he can control so much space. However, it reqiires a lot more than GT the naners to be good. And just like with the ICs, playing a one-dimensional game when your opponents expect that is a recipe for failure. So if you cannot fight w/o bananas, then you're screwed. But if you manage to acquire the knowledge needed to master Diddy, then you picked up something great.

Olimar. The previous posts elaborate on why he's so difficult to master so I don't have to input much. But Olimar requires a LOT of focus on him and the Pikmin alone, as well as a know-how of how to use each of them. This alone is adequate reason enough to make him difficult, but factor in timing his whistle and recovery, and only the mentally dilligent can be successful with Olimar. He's one of the best characters for a reason, and if you learn him you'll see why.

These are my votes for the most difficult character. I would also mention PT, but I think these 3 are a lot more advanced than he is.

Totally agree with all of these, in the same order too :bigthumbu I guess I kind of want to put Zamus on the list somewhere too, mostly for the same reasons as Marth; she's entirely a spacing character, and for people who know how to space properly it can be very difficult for her to rack damage and get kills. Of course Marth's still harder because Zamus has her stun gun to help her out, not to mention a few more options, but she's still extremely difficult to master

 

[Nova9000]

Totally agree with all of these, in the same order too :bigthumbu I guess I kind of want to put Zamus on the list somewhere too, mostly for the same reasons as Marth; she's entirely a spacing character, and for people who know how to space properly it can be very difficult for her to rack damage and get kills. Of course Marth's still harder because Zamus has her stun gun to help her out, not to mention a few more options, but she's still extremely difficult to master

Thx lol. I also considered Zamus, as she is also another character that has a very high learning curve, but I thought these 3 edged her out. Plus she has more control over her than say PT, who if is gimped is a entire new character. I think she is harder than Marth though. Another one I considered was Pika, but he also fell in the same boat with Zamus with me.

 

[dahighii]

Thx lol. I also considered Zamus, as she is also another character that has a very high learning curve, but I thought these 3 edged her out. Plus she has more control over her than say PT, who if is gimped is a entire new character. I think she is harder than Marth though. Another one I considered was Pika, but he also fell in the same boat with Zamus with me.

Truf. One thing I can say about them is at least they have good recover, maybe Zamus more than Pikachu, but they can get back on the stage (though Pika can be gimped by pikmin). Zamus has a lot of options to get back on the stage; it's true that her whip can be ledge-hogged, but she's still got her third jump, which is great because people don't always know what you're going to do. Pika has quick attack, so at least he can get some distance. I'm not sure about how PT fares in all of this, though I do know that Ivy's recovery sux. (Just a whip? REALLY!?! Oh wait, that's just like Oli well his is at least longer.)

 

[Rekeah]

I'm not sure about how PT fares in all of this, though I do know that Ivy's recovery sux. (Just a whip? REALLY!?! Oh wait, that's just like Oli well his is at least longer.)

Well if you were to count PT as nintendo intended, which is one character with three distinct playstyles then I believe that's triple the amount of effort you would spend to master a character on average (You also need to spend triple the amount of time needed to read up on matchups, etc.). So I think PT as a whole can be considered difficult, but that is not what I think should be discussed when people mention the difficulty of PT. I think people should point out the differences in learning curves between each of the three pokemon.

In high levels of play, where people know how to space, and if they're not totally ignorant to the Marth matchup, you might find it very difficult to get a kill. Marth's gameplay is entirely based around his fair walls, juggles, and racking on damage with Side+B, so you, as an opponent, generally know what he's going to do.

He's difficult to kill with because he has to tipper if you DI. Has to. And you, as a knowledgeable person, would definitely be trying to get into his dead zone, which is right next to him. So in total, you cannot play Marth aggressively in the long run. He must resort to a game of cat and mouse, finding opportunities and then retreating. Aggressive Marths get grabbed, punished, and probably won't be able to kill until close to 200%.

He's really easy to play if people go overly aggro on the Marth, or if they suck at airdodging, or do so predictably, though. You really see his flaws (they aren't really flaws, experience lets you overcome them) when people start to camp you.

EDIT: In fact, I've found that the only way to even hit people with lots of Marth exp is to intentionally bait airdodges, read the direction they move, then follow up with another aerial (generally Nair or Uair). And in general, fair is the only aerial that's fast enough to do this. This gets pretty aggravating after a while, but it makes him a pretty satisfying character to play.

That makes a lot of sense, and maybe Marth CAN be considered HARD by the general smash community if most people can agree. I'm still unsure whether Marth should be considered the hardest character like you claimed, but I still find your post enlightening, so thanks for the useful information.

Also, I think this can be considered a 'top ten most difficult characters' thread now, since we got enough information from smashers other than myself to at least make a rough draft.

(This list is in no particular order, until I get enough opinions from smashers)

Top Ten Hardest Characters

1. Olimar
2. Ice Climbers
3. Diddy Kong
4. Marth
5. Falco
6. Pikachu
7. Pit
8. Toon Link
9. Pokemon Trainer
10. Samus

Let me know who is missing from the list and who you think should be replaced if that is the case. (Because giving me a name without suggesting who to remove isn't enough)

 

[Nova9000]

Take off Pit and put Zamus on there. Pit is easy compared to Zamus. And since you don't really have an order going, that looks pretty good.

 

[dahighii]

I was also going to mention that Zamus isn't on there as well, I'd replace either Pit as Nova mentioned or Falco (not saying he's easy, just saying that in comparison I think everyone else has a harder time)

 

[Rekeah]

Take off Pit and put Zamus on there. Pit is easy compared to Zamus. And since you don't really have an order going, that looks pretty good.

Ok so I took off Pit and put in ZSS (why do people call her Zamus? I thought ZSS was faster...) and I'm open to suggestions to change the order of the list. Remember, The hardest characters (to master, really, because nobody cares if a character is easy to pick up) should have many advanced techniques, they should be able to use most of their moves in different scenarios for different purposes (each move has a specific function in certain situations), and they should have the potential to be more unpredictable than the average characters, which is the best way to distinguish a nub from an expert. Oh yea, and projectiles naturally boost the difficulty level of any character because Yomi is increased.

And for no reason at all, I would like to hear your opinion on who is the easiest character to play.

I would say Wolf, because he is the most n00b-friendly character in the game. His Fsmash moves him forward, so when against casual players, it can be very effective and spammable. Casual players tend to roll dodge more often than not, and Wolf's roll dodge is in the better half of the roster. Almost every single one of his moves are extremely easy to learn the timing. Does he even have an AT? (I hope nobody from the Wolf boards reads this...)

 

[Ray Robo]

There is a difference between the amount of AT's and the learning curve. IC"s has CG and i think thats pretty much it besides dysnching. They have an extremely high learning curve compared to someone like Falco/Snake. They have alot of AT's and imo they're medium. Also i think wolf,MK,or ike is the most noob friendly character in the game. Wolf and ike can spam smashes and get lucky.MK is MK. Nuff said.

 

[dahighii]

I use Zamus just cuz I think it's clever and I like it =)

Anyways, this is a rough mockup of where I'd list everyone, though I'd still have to think more about it:


1. Samus
2.Diddy Kong
3.Ice Climbers
4.Pokemon Trainer
5.ZSS/Zamus
6.Olimar
7.Marth
8.Toon Link
9.Pikachu
10.Falco

I put Samus at the top because she's REALLY bad, and in order to be good with her you have to learn the spacing like you would with other characters, you have to learn precision timing to land her attacks, and you have to have a deep knowledge of the movesets of other characters in order to know which 2 (maybe 3) of your attacks you can actually use against them. That might be a slight exageration, but of the ones we have here I feel like Samus would definitely have the worst time.

Towards the bottom of the list, I started listing the characters I don't know much about; I don't believe they need to be higher, but that may just be because I haven't played around with them or seen them in action enough.

For Diddy, you have to memorize banana throw combos, master stage domination, learn several situational combos, become good with a bad projectile, and basically mindgame the h3ll out of the opposition.

And Ice Climbers, oh ICs. I truly do hate them, but these guys are all about getting a sucky character REALLY close to a good one. If you were to take away their chaingrabs, no one would ever play ICs, because even with the desync their moveset is just to awful to warrant usage. ICs have to get really good at knowing when to swoop in for the grab, especially since their grab range is pretty small. Maybe they could be moved down one or two spots, but they're up there.

Pokemon Trainer, you have to learn three completely different characters, have one less special than the rest of the cast, and must make yourself vulnerable every 2 minutes or suffer from a decrease in power and damage dealt. That's pretty self explanatory.

I've already said my piece about Zamus.

Been over Oli too.

Ledger covered Marth fairly well.

I haven't thought much about how people play Tink, but I do know it requires keeping track of several things at once (boomerang, bombs, arrows) and knowing how they'll combo into one another depending on what the opponent does.

And Pikachu I just don't know much about, perhaps I've placed him too low. Not sure.

Falco, while he may have a few techs to master, I still feel is easier just from being such a good character, kind of Samus' opposite. He's fast, he's got priority, and he's got those d*mn lasers. While he may be difficult to pickup, I feel the others have it worse.

 

[Rekeah]

For Diddy, you have to memorize banana throw combos, master stage domination, learn several situational combos, become good with a bad projectile, and basically mindgame the h3ll out of the opposition.

Pokemon Trainer, you have to learn three completely different characters, have one less special than the rest of the cast, and must make yourself vulnerable every 2 minutes or suffer from a decrease in power and damage dealt. That's pretty self explanatory.

I haven't thought much about how people play Tink, but I do know it requires keeping track of several things at once (boomerang, bombs, arrows) and knowing how they'll combo into one another depending on what the opponent does.

And Pikachu I just don't know much about, perhaps I've placed him too low. Not sure.

Falco, while he may have a few techs to master, I still feel is easier just from being such a good character, kind of Samus' opposite. He's fast, he's got priority, and he's got those d*mn lasers. While he may be difficult to pickup, I feel the others have it worse.

As for Diddy, everybody seems to forget that bananas can't be spammed (because your opponent can pick it up and use it against you) which is why he's so hard to play with. His best playstyle, making sure you don't put yourself in a bad position with those bananas, is so critical that it's often overlooked. Without a doubt, he's one of the most underrated character in terms of difficulty. I'm sure most people here can agree that Diddy should be in the top 5 hardest characters to master.

And of course PT is hard. Triple the amount of time to master different playstyles. But which pokemon is harder to master and why?

And the only reason why I mentioned Toon Link is because he plays like Link except he's better in every way. No really, he even has more advanced strategies than Link because his speed allows for more different situations to occur. And have you ever seen Santi play? You'll see what he can do with three projectiles. MIND GAMES!

As for Pikachu, everybody knows about his precise timing required on his many infinites and combos. He has crazy locks, too. I threw him in the list because I couldn't think of anyone else who would replace him that isn't already on the list. Also, this thread exists to find out the hardest characters to play with at a TOURNAMENT LEVEL. I believe that the current meta-game allows for Pikachu to be considered top 10 hardest. Why? Just take a look at Anther/ESAM videos...

When it comes to Falco you should watch Underground/DEHF videos. You'll be surprised at the amount of things they pull off in a game. The reason why I keep on bringing up professionals is because through them you can easily distinguish the gap between a casual player and a pro, which clearly says something about the expertise needed to play that particular character at tournament level.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

I agree that IC's are the hardest to play, not because of their chaingrab, but because getting the grab is DIFFICULT. I believe someone very recently just made their first guaranteed grab follow up, I don't remember what it is. You know all they are going to do is whack Nana until she's dead, then you're left a useless character with an awful moveset.

Why do people hate on Falco? He's gay, but not easy. On top of the immense patience it takes to play him as gay as possible, it takes a lot of reading to get those KO's. Plus every character has some form of combo on him, the curse of being a fastfaller. And your day is ruined when you find someone who can perfect shield like mikeHAZE. All of a sudden your character is reduced to going hand-to-hand, and while Falco's moveset is not bad, it is lacking range other than Bair, which is probably better saved as a kill. He gets proportionately more difficult to play when the people you play get better and learn the matchup. That is true for most characters, but the shocking difference in how badly Falco ***** newer players compared to seasoned is immense.

Whoever mentioned that ZSS is as difficult as Marth for the same reasons, you're right. But for different reasons. ZSS obviously has range zoning capabilities, but she's weaker than Marth in her deadzone, so they're pretty close, actually.

Rofl, Pit is not hard. Pit has many advanced techs, some of which are very hard to execute and look very flashy (Wingdashing... why are you so useless), and some of which are very flashy and take a huge amount of practice to be slightly applicable (circle arrows), but you have to remember that all of these actions take away from time you could spend jamming that B button more. He's one of the easiest to play correctly, imo.

Toon Link is also deceptively not difficult. Sure, he's always pressing buttons, with theoretically 4 different projectiles out at once, but he's pretty lacking in other things he could be doing. It's more educated than just spam, but it's not so different, in the end. It generally comes down to how well your opponent can perfect shield. He's not easy, but definitely not one of the hardest.

I agree that PT should be there, as well. 3x the characters, and two of them are trash. Charizard has like, 1 good attack, period, and a good grab range, so his difficultly isn't really that large, and Ivysaur... is well, Ivysaur, and utterly useless garbage unless your spacing and zoning are perfect. Squirtle is broken though.

EDIT: I forgot, why is no one mentioning Peach? Has no one realized that she has a subpar projectile that leaves her vulnerable for a near second, one of her main spacing moves is her best kill move (fair), and even that doesn't kill until 5000% on people with good DI. She has the Falco syndrome that you're just going to be camping and retreating until above 200%, but she doesn't do it by choice, that's pretty much the only way she can be played. Get lucky with those Usmash reads I guess. Also, she has a new "true combo," in the form of her Uair strings, which are actually difficult to do, like, IC's chaingrab difficult. 0->death on Fox, and leads to huge percentages on almost everyone else, including Metaknight. Easy to set up too, apparently all you have to do is land a falling Dair on someone.

 

[Nova9000]

I use Zamus just cuz I think it's clever and I like it =)

Anyways, this is a rough mockup of where I'd list everyone, though I'd still have to think more about it:


1. Samus
2.Diddy Kong
3.Ice Climbers
4.Pokemon Trainer
5.ZSS/Zamus
6.Olimar
7.Marth
8.Toon Link
9.Pikachu
10.Falco

I can't see Samus as 1. Yes she is difficult to play with, but so are Jiggs and Ganon. Jiggs has a hard time getting kills as well that aren't gimps. Her best kill move is fair and is't stale most of the time. Ganon is just....Ganon. Unless it's teams, I can't see how he makes it lol. But I haven't seen a lot of vids of great Ganon players such as Ray_Kalm, so that may be on my behalf that I don't know much. Either way, Samus is tough to play with but her keep away playstyle is easier to masteronce you get the hang of missile canceling.

The reason why I keep on bringing up professionals is because through them you can easily distinguish the gap between a casual player and a pro, which clearly says something about the expertise needed to play that particular character at tournament level.

This is what I agree with. Can't base a playstyle on someone who doesn't know their character.

I forgot, why is no one mentioning Peach? Has no one realized that she has a subpar projectile that leaves her vulnerable for a near second, one of her main spacing moves is her best kill move (fair), and even that doesn't kill until 5000% on people with good DI. She has the Falco syndrome that you're just going to be camping and retreating until above 200%, but she doesn't do it by choice, that's pretty much the only way she can be played. Get lucky with those Usmash reads I guess. Also, she has a new "true combo," in the form of her Uair strings, which are actually difficult to do, like, IC's chaingrab difficult. 0->death on Fox, and leads to huge percentages on almost everyone else, including Metaknight. Easy to set up too, apparently all you have to do is land a falling Dair on someone.

This I agree with as well. peach takes some skill to master as well.

With all of that said, here's my list for the top 10 harderst characters to play with/master:

1-2: /
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

I covered the top 3 already. At first I thought ICs were the hardest, but after the tourney I went to yesterday I realize how hard it is for Diddy to do some things with the bananas and controlling the ground. So I gave that one a tie/toss up since everyone agrees they are hard to master. Oli I covered as well.

PT has 3 characters to master. Trying to win under controlled circumstances is tough, but factor fatigue and whether you want that pkmn to die to swap and trying to find an outlet to do so is tough.

ZSS has a tough curve as well. trying to have a setup for aerials can be tough and the side-B is tough when everyone expects it to come out. So trying to get kills with that can be a bit tough.

Marth was covered by Ledger.

Peach was covered by Ledger.

Falco is tough at a compeptive level already. Ledger covered it pretty well but until planking is banned/ ever considers being controlled, Falco is going to have a hard time. He can't control it nor do anything about it. Trying to win against that is another obstacle that has tobe looked at.

Pika has so many QAC and CG combos, but actually aplying it to real matches is tough. But when you do, it's worth it. That's what makes Pika so good. But there a a scarcity of good Pikas and his curve may be the reason why.

TL may be at the bottom, but I think he requires more skill. I play a very good TL on a eregular basis and I know Lobos personally, so the things that they do as TL mains requires some patience and skill and strict timing. If you know how TL operates, it's spamming with a purpose. Bombs, hookshot, QD arrows, and boomerangs all set up TL's sword attacks. That takes some skill to pull off consistently.

That's my list. Other characters could be swapped in there (Yoshi, Lucas, Luigi), but that's why it's for discussion. Oh and BTW, Wolf isn't a noob character. AC his aerials make him as good as he is at a pro level. His F smash is his worst smash honestly, and it's really just used for punishing when other moves can't reach there in time. Noob friendly characters are DK, G&W, Ike, Zelda, and DDD. Noobs can pick them up easily and it's why their metagames are dropping except for DDD.

 

[dahighii]

1-2: /
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Nice list, and good call on taking Samus out, I wasn't really quite sure what to do with her. The only change I might make is putting Peach ahead of Marth; I think the precise timing necessary to do a lot of Peach combos is more difficult than Marth's spacing issues.

 

[Nova9000]

Nice list, and good call on taking Samus out, I wasn't really quite sure what to do with her. The only change I might make is putting Peach ahead of Marth; I think the precise timing necessary to do a lot of Peach combos is more difficult than Marth's spacing issues.

I could see that as well. I guess, like the tier lists we have now, you have to take it all with a grain of salt.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

My Opinion:

1. Ice Climbers
2. Marth
3. Pokemon Trainer

---

4. ZSS
5. Yoshi
6. Peach
7. Sheik
8. Pikachu
9. Falco
10. Samus

These are in no particular order past the first three, which are my contenders for the top three most difficult characters to learn. As I have previously stated, I do not include technicality as part of my reasoning.

I disagree wholeheartedly with Olimar and Diddy even appearing on this list. Yes, you have to pay attention to Pikmin color and properties, but you've got the best grab range in the game, and one of the best camping games, which means you can keep away and pressure almost any character in the cast, and that camping on it's own will intrinsically build up damage for an early smash kill. Experienced Olimars don't get gimped easily, which is the hardest part of learning this character, in my opinion.

I only think people perceive Diddy as difficult to play since no one knows how to fight against him yet. Or at least the people that have figured it out have really yet to spread the wealth of information. There is a massive amount of inevitability when playing as Diddy. You have guaranteed setups to kills, and a veritable wall of projectiles at your disposal, a side+B that goes through shields, etc. Diddy can just put so much pressure on an opponent that I can't see him being difficult once you have his basics down.

EDIT: As an aside, Samus deserves to be up there, just because you almost literally have NO kill options. Dtilt, Dair, and Charge Shot? All weak, slow, and highly telegraphed. To score a kill, your opponent pretty much necessarily has to be at huge percentage, and screw up. Your main spacing tool does like 4% or something, too (Zair).

 

[Damage Points]

how come you didnt play at the last NCSU... i saw you there but you didnt enter!

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Oh, hey, I think I remember who you are

I didn't participate in that one in particular because I opted to go to a M:tG prerelease event instead. And I don't enter singles in general because I highly dislike camping, and for good or bad, that is a huge part of what Brawl is. That and I haven't settled on a single character due to severe character ADD, and I tend to do badly in singles tournaments because of nerves and impatience at camping tactics in general. I don't like to enter tournaments when I don't have practice, and I don't have a Wii anymore, so I don't get much time to play this game. I go to tournaments mainly to hang out and get matchup experience.

I might enter for this weekend's biweekly, maybe I'll see you there. I might have some new characters that I'll bring to the table, who knows . This thread in particular has me interested in giving Olimar and Pikachu a second shot. I'll try them out this week if I have the opportunity to play.

EDIT: Were you at The Last Bill?

 

[Rekeah]

EDIT: As an aside, Samus deserves to be up there, just because you almost literally have NO kill options. Dtilt, Dair, and Charge Shot? All weak, slow, and highly telegraphed. To score a kill, your opponent pretty much necessarily has to be at huge percentage, and screw up. Your main spacing tool does like 4% or something, too (Zair).

Why Sheik? her DACUS?

I think we have different ideals when it comes to judging who is hard to master because you incorporate killing as an option. For you, the less kill options a character has, the harder it is to kill with that character, and in turn the harder it is to play with that character. That is great and all, and might make sense to a certain degree, but if your character has no kill moves except a few spare ones, then how hard must that character be based on those kill moves (if any)? Being able to kill someone easily or with difficulty shouldn't be included as a reason to make a character be placed differently on these types of lists.

That's my list. Other characters could be swapped in there (Yoshi, Lucas, Luigi), but that's why it's for discussion. Oh and BTW, Wolf isn't a noob character. AC his aerials make him as good as he is at a pro level. His F smash is his worst smash honestly, and it's really just used for punishing when other moves can't reach there in time. Noob friendly characters are DK, G&W, Ike, Zelda, and DDD. Noobs can pick them up easily and it's why their metagames are dropping except for DDD.

Noob-friendly doesn't exactly mean that it's the easiest character to play with. It just means at casual level (complete opposite from the current metagame) there are certain characters that exceed pretty well due to abilities that are hard to control. Most casual brawlers would have a harder time finding punishing a Wolf who Fsmashes and roll dodges all the time than a Falco who also spams smashes and roll dodges. And when you mention everything else about Wolf, which includes his aerials and his smashes, anybody can pick him up and do surprisingly well at casual levels. That is not to say he really doesn't have advanced techs that are hard to master, or that he has specific setups that make him somewhat hard to master, but none of that would matter in a nub game. If a Wolf player knows how to play Wolf substantially, it is no longer a nub game. Wolf is also the only example I gave as the easiest character to play with, while certain characters that you mentioned I have a hard time picturing how nubs can play with them easily. For example, a smash-spammy DK will burn against a slightly intelligent player. D3 might be easy but only after you have seen which moves are good and which moves fail while setting up for that grab and always trying to get it (I'm not saying D3 is hard, just saying I don't think he is the most noob-friendly character when compared to somebody like Wolf or Ike(spare me the jab cancels lol) ).


OPTIONS = MINDGAMES
MINDGAMES = DIFFICULTY

 

[Nova9000]

Noob-friendly doesn't exactly mean that it's the easiest character to play with. It just means at casual level (complete opposite from the current metagame) there are certain characters that exceed pretty well due to abilities that are hard to control. Most casual brawlers would have a harder time finding punishing a Wolf who Fsmashes and roll dodges all the time than a Falco who also spams smashes and roll dodges. And when you mention everything else about Wolf, which includes his aerials and his smashes, anybody can pick him up and do surprisingly well at casual levels. That is not to say he really doesn't have advanced techs that are hard to master, or that he has specific setups that make him somewhat hard to master, but none of that would matter in a nub game. If a Wolf player knows how to play Wolf substantially, it is no longer a nub game. Wolf is also the only example I gave as the easiest character to play with, while certain characters that you mentioned I have a hard time picturing how nubs can play with them easily. For example, a smash-spammy DK will burn against a slightly intelligent player. D3 might be easy but only after you have seen which moves are good and which moves fail while setting up for that grab and always trying to get it (I'm not saying D3 is hard, just saying I don't think he is the most noob-friendly character when compared to somebody like Wolf or Ike(spare me the jab cancels lol) ).


OPTIONS = MINDGAMES
MINDGAMES = DIFFICULTY

Ok. Well let me rephrase that then. The characters that I mentioned all have way easier learning curves in comparison to Wolf. Yes, you can spam smashes with Wolf, but you can do the same with Wario, Pikachu, and ROB. Yet these characters require more time to actually pick up. Spamming the C-stick doesn't determine if a character is easy to pick up, but it is a factor. And let me explain how each characters is nub material to me:

G&W and Zelda all have spam happy smashes since they're powerful. Zelda may need a bit of work for the LKs, but besides that it's rather easy to pick her up. G&W nubs spam turtle unwisely and rely on d-throw to d-smash for kills. The problem is, G dubs has terrible start up time for all his smashes and his turtle isn't as invincible as we first thought. And SDI kills Zelda.

Ike has the jab canceling. That takes no time to pick up. And DDD only needs to pick up a chain grab and he beats a few heavy characters already. They can't spam smashes like the first two can, but their techniques used at a low level really make their game one sided in the hands of a noob. So Ike will be looking to Jab and DDD to get the grab in. If thats what a noob saw on YT, then that's all they're going to pick up.

And about DK, he falls in between these two. you can spam smashes with DK, but they have to hit. And considering DK has a fast Dsmash and a long Fsmash it can be done. Throw in a few Bairs and a punch and you have a noob DK. I disagree with Wolf because of the things you have to worry about (recovery, AC aerials, ect.), but he's one of the easier characters to play with. I think Fox is easier to use than Wolf. But this is my opinion.

 

[Berserker.]

1. Diddy and ICs
Diddy takes a lot of technical ability. You have to know a lot of important ATs like SNL and PSNL and all other complicated techs.

ICs is hard to get with. You need to learn how to control Nana so you can lock your enemy in CGs. Also the part when you attempt grabbing

2.) PT
You need to master the 3 pokemons. The hardest to master would be Ivysaur.

3.) Triforce tier (Link, Zelda and Ganondorf)
Link's recovery is terrible and his attacks have considerable lag.

Ganondorf's attacks are too slow and he is slow. He also has a terrible recovery

Zelda has a terrible recovery, no projectile and virtually no aerials

----------------------------
4.) C. Falcon
5.) Yoshi
6.) ZSS
7.) Samus
8.) Marth
9.) Pikachu
10.) Peach

And by the way, Snake is HARD to master. Not easy.