Who are the most difficult characters in general?

[Ledger_Damayn]

I think killing is a huge deal. The harder time the character has to kill, the harder in actual application against an intelligent opponent you're going to have getting that kill. You said it yourself, that options are correlative to difficulty. Well, if you have only 1 or two options, that's not too much for the opponent to keep aware to never get in the range of.

As for Sheik, she has her Ftilt combos and her Bair as a poke, and maybe grab release DACUS for an "easy" kill... but what else. None of her easier to hit with attacks have any significant knockback, she's not the easiest character in the game to grab with. She pretty much has to get those gimps in, or she will fall behind in the game. I'm not actually sure why I put her in the list, she's just held a place in my head as being very difficult to learn. I'll come up with a more detailed explanation at some point.

I think you hit the nail on the head though when you said, "for you, ____ means that this character is difficult." Difficulty is a subjective concept, because people find different parts of different games difficult. Some people struggle with technicality, some people struggle with spacing, some with killing, etc. Some people like to play faster/slower, so character speed is a factor of difficulty for them. Some people are good/bad at handling projectiles, so characters with many projectile options or too few projectile options might be factors for them...

 

[Damage Points]

I hate fighting agaisnt projecticles. Good thing I play a character who spends most of the time in the area or camping on a nice safe platform.

 

[Finn_Nahon]

I have to disagree with that list, as i found the hardest character to win with was King DeeDeeDee. he's the slowest character in the game as for Marth, Olimar etc, i found them easy to master, and i am the best with them now. as for characters like Metaknight (considered the best... how? how?) im fine with, but Metaknight and fox etc, have attacks you can just outright spam with. and thats not proper gaming.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy isn't THAT difficult honestly. Sure, lack the pro skill but I cannot picture him too hard to learn. The character simply has a lot of advantages over others. All you really have to do is learn how to glide toss and master his arials and landing and combos. The only thing that is REALLY difficult about Diddy is his Side B. Overall the character simply has a lot going for him.

My vote for most difficult character goes to the Ice Climbers. Then Falco. Pokemon Trainer and Olimar are also difficult. However, I don't think Charizard is that horrible of a character at all.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

I have to disagree with that list, as i found the hardest character to win with was King DeeDeeDee. he's the slowest character in the game as for Marth, Olimar etc, i found them easy to master, and i am the best with them now. as for characters like Metaknight (considered the best... how? how?) im fine with, but Metaknight and fox etc, have attacks you can just outright spam with. and thats not proper gaming.

Sig'ing this.

 

[tekkie]

And for no reason at all, I would like to hear your opinion on who is the easiest character to play.

I would say Wolf, because he is the most n00b-friendly character in the game. His Fsmash moves him forward, so when against casual players, it can be very effective and spammable. Casual players tend to roll dodge more often than not, and Wolf's roll dodge is in the better half of the roster. Almost every single one of his moves are extremely easy to learn the timing. Does he even have an AT? (I hope nobody from the Wolf boards reads this...)

if we're listing how hard characters are to pick up for noobs, wolf is pretty high but will still be outplaced by olimar, MK, ike, etc.

the second half of that paragraph is pure garbage anyways. have you ever even used wolf? have you ever even seen a good wolf player? play wolf against a good MK and rewrite your statement.

as for my opinion on hard characters (assuming at pro/pretty good/whatever levels), lucario, toon link, ZSS, wario, sonic, and pikachu are up there. wolf is really tricky too, but i only know that because he's my main.

 

[superlucario]

I would say Lucario is medium because as soon as you master his Aura ( meaning his power changes) he is easy to play

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

I mean... there's nothing stopping you from roll dodge/aura sphere camping with Lucario for all %'s. It's pretty necessary when his damage and knockback are low, but then it just gets more effective at higher percentages, since he's not exactly a heavyweight.

 

[superlucario]

Yea but for some reason I servive alot of hits at high percent

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

I guess it's related to the fact that at high percentages, your hits send them REALLY far away and stack on tons of percentage, so you're bound to live longer just because your character is essentially broken at that point.

Lucario makes me sad sometimes. Rolldodge away -> Aura Sphere. Punish bad spacing from far away with Fsmash. Punish bad spacing close up with Jab -> Jab -> Force Palm or OoS dair. So one dimensional. So effective.

I mean, until someone learns how to perfect shield, then Lucario gets *****, rofl.

 

[Grizzer]

I guess it's related to the fact that at high percentages, your hits send them REALLY far away and stack on tons of percentage, so you're bound to live longer just because your character is essentially broken at that point.

Lucario makes me sad sometimes. Rolldodge away -> Aura Sphere. Punish bad spacing from far away with Fsmash. Punish bad spacing close up with Jab -> Jab -> Force Palm or OoS dair. So one dimensional. So effective.

I mean, until someone learns how to perfect shield, then Lucario gets *****, rofl.

if lucario plays as gay as he can, you will lose.
i once lost to my brothers lucario whilst ONLY getting hit by aura sphere and fsmash, its impossible to land if he does it right -.- so frustrating...
cant land in front, cant land behind because of fsmash/aura sphere, my brother is the most pro motherfcker in shieldgrabbing O.o he can shieldgrab marths tipper nair between the 2 hits, i mean, thats framewise and range wise impossible especially with lucario...

i dont get it, he can get alot of guaranteed aura sphere hits and if hes high percent those will kill at like 80%, and if you manage to dodge he'll fsmash you on landing, only way to win is to read EVERYTHING.

im not saying lucario is impossible to beat, just saying that lucario has the options and gayness to make it hard as *** to win

 

[superlucario]

HAHA I laugh at your lucario trobles


yea he is awsome but I use him more like this


Dtilt> jump up>fAir>Fair Dair Dair Dair

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Rofl combos in Brawl. The people you're playing against don't DI, is why that works.

No, but to the guy who was complaining about Lucario troubles, just run in with a shield to buffer a perfect shield against the F-Smash. If they go ahead and Fsmash anyway, you will be in your shield, and worst case scenario, you get pushed back and they can't grab you. If you perfect shield it, you can get in any attack or grab in the lag.

If they don't Fsmash, you can then grab.

 

[superlucario]

if lucario plays as gay as he can, you will lose.
i once lost to my brothers lucario whilst ONLY getting hit by aura sphere and fsmash, its impossible to land if he does it right -.- so frustrating...
cant land in front, cant land behind because of fsmash/aura sphere, my brother is the most pro motherfcker in shieldgrabbing O.o he can shieldgrab marths tipper nair between the 2 hits, i mean, thats framewise and range wise impossible especially with lucario...

i dont get it, he can get alot of guaranteed aura sphere hits and if hes high percent those will kill at like 80%, and if you manage to dodge he'll fsmash you on landing, only way to win is to read EVERYTHING.

im not saying lucario is impossible to beat, just saying that lucario has the options and gayness to make it hard as *** to win

A good way to beat lucario is to 1. Don't use weak attacks that raise his attack 2. Stay out of the air That is our house

 

[pkmntrainer]

Meta Knight- Easy

Snake- Hard

Diddy Kong- Medium

Falco- Easy

Ice Climbers- Hard

Marth- Hard

Wario- Medium

King Dedede- Easy

Pikachu- Medium

Olimar- Hard

Lucario- Easy

Mr. Game and Watch- Medium

Pit- Easy

Toon Link- Easy

Zero Suit Samus- Medium

Kirby- Medium

R.O.B.- Hard

Donkey Kong- Medium

Peach- Hard

Fox- Easy

Luigi- Hard

Wolf- Easy

Shiek- Medium

Pokemon Trainer- Hard

Sonic- Hard

Ness- Medium

Bowser- Medium

Lucas- Easy

Ike- Easy

Yoshi- Easy

Mario- Medium

Captain Falcon- Medium

Samus- Hard

Jigglypuff- Medium

Zelda- Medium

Link- Medium

Ganondorf- Lets just say.... you cant be good with him

 

[superlucario]

Meta Knight- Easy

Snake- Hard

Diddy Kong- Medium

Falco- Easy

Ice Climbers- Hard

Marth- Hard

Wario- Medium

King Dedede- Easy

Pikachu- Medium

Olimar- Hard

Lucario- Easy

Mr. Game and Watch- Medium

Pit- Easy

Toon Link- Easy

Zero Suit Samus- Medium

Kirby- Medium

R.O.B.- Hard

Donkey Kong- Medium

Peach- Hard

Fox- Easy

Luigi- Hard

Wolf- Easy

Shiek- Medium

Pokemon Trainer- Hard

Sonic- Hard

Ness- Medium

Bowser- Medium

Lucas- Easy

Ike- Easy

Yoshi- Easy

Mario- Medium

Captain Falcon- Medium

Samus- Hard

Jigglypuff- Medium

Zelda- Medium

Link- Medium

Ganondorf- Lets just say.... you cant be good with him

Sorry to say this but IMO this is almost compleatly wrong

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

I stopped reading after:

"Snake - Hard"

I'm going to assume the rest of it is as bad.

EDIT: Continued to read. Rofl roflroflroflroflrofl. My life is that much more complete.

EDITEDIT: Great Ganondorfs **** bad players. Look up chain choking.

 

[Kunx990]

Meta Knight- Medium

Snake- Hard

Diddy Kong- Medium

Falco- Easy

Ice Climbers- Hard

Marth- Hard

Wario- Medium

King Dedede- Easy

Pikachu- Medium

Olimar- Hard

Lucario- Easy

Mr. Game and Watch- Medium

Pit- Medium

Toon Link- Easy

Zero Suit Samus- Medium

Kirby- Medium

R.O.B.- Medium

Donkey Kong- Medium

Peach- Hard

Fox- Medium

Luigi- Hard

Wolf- Easy

Shiek- Medium

Pokemon Trainer- Hard

Sonic- Hard

Ness- Medium

Bowser- Medium

Lucas- Easy

Ike- Easy

Yoshi- Easy

Mario- Medium

Captain Falcon- Medium

Samus- Hard

Jigglypuff- Medium

Zelda- Never going to be good.

Link- Medium

Ganondorf- Easy

Fix'd

10 chara

 

[Coney]

itt:

MY CHARACTER IS HARD

YOUR CHARACTER IS EASY

I AM BETTER THAN YOU

PLEASE BELIEVE ME

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Hey, coney, I remember you. My roommate followed you around Pound 4 assaulting you with DDD questions, iirc.

 

[Gamer10]

Its kinda hard to say in general, but I say that pikachu's final smash has absolutely NO control what so ever. Low tiers are pretty hard to handle, but I did get used to Yoshi and Sonic though. (Yoshi may not count at all because I played him through all 3 smash bros. games, and hes no different in Brawl.)

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Except lacking the DJC, which was the majority of his game in the previous two games, so actually, he's extremely different than his previous incarnations.

 

[Nova9000]

Lol @ coney.
I forgot about this thread lol.
But I gave my ideas.

 

[Coney]

Hey, coney, I remember you. My roommate followed you around Pound 4 assaulting you with DDD questions, iirc.

hahah, really? ddd questions? i don't remember it but i'm flattered!

also this thread is worthless; certain playstyles gravitate to certain characters. every character in the game is difficult to use at a high level, and anything lower than that it's really just playstyles. someone that's great with ICs isn't a better player than someone who's great with G&W, their playstyle just attracts them to a character like ICs because that character feels natural (or EASY, if you want to call it) to them. trying to establish objective skill beyond character choice is a fool's errand.

 

[Kitamerby]

Coney, I'm starting to think that this thread isn't so much about easy as it is technical skill, how much practice you need to keep using the character in peak condition at high levels, etc. in which case one probably could make a small list for the characters requiring the most practice...

In which case the list would probably just be ICs, Diddy, Ganon, and then everyone else in the next tier.

 

[Yonder]

Sig'ing this.

Aw that may make the poor guy feel unsignifigant.

Anyways, IC's and their grab shenanigans are tough to master...

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Coney, I'm starting to think that this thread isn't so much about easy as it is technical skill, how much practice you need to keep using the character in peak condition at high levels, etc. in which case one probably could make a small list for the characters requiring the most practice...

In which case the list would probably just be ICs, Diddy, Ganon, and then everyone else in the next tier.

Yeah, I have a feeling this is the primary factor in the general public's view of character difficulty.

I can't agree, but then again, at high level, you can pretty much play whatever character you want and probably do well (to a point). It's very obvious, especially when you meet IC's players who only play against computers, know all the chaingrabs, but then get 3 stocked and double eliminated because they don't get any grabs, or because they don't know how to deal with Nana getting *****.

It's a very false general concept that once you learn a character's tech, you learned the character. It couldn't be farther from the truth, and it annoys the crap out of me when people try to make this statement.

@Coney: Though the thread has gotten to a stupid point, I became interested because it is actually valuable to know which characters have a less steep final learning curve. I.e., How many reads, predictions, and how often do I need to perfectly space before my character is viable competitively? (Compare MK to Ganon)

Or for the people that are obsessed with technicality, you may ask "How difficult is it comparatively to apply my techniques in such a way that they are actually useful and not just flashy, or even worse, a liability to my playstyle?" For this question, for instance compare Pikachu's QAC (Which will probably get you killed until you learn to perfectly space with it) or IC's chaingrabs to desynching (Chaingrabs only work if you're excellent at getting the grabs, whereas desynching Blizzard to Blizzard/Ice Block/Uair is a really easy wall that not very many characters have means around).

I mean, I guess I was reading too much into the intent of the thread, since it turned into "IMO, because I played this character for longer, this character is [subjectively] easier to me, so it must be so for everyone else." Source: My signature.

 

[Nova9000]

LOL at the fact you actually sigged that. And I agree with you.

 

[Rekeah]

if we're listing how hard characters are to pick up for noobs, wolf is pretty high but will still be outplaced by olimar, MK, ike, etc.

the second half of that paragraph is pure garbage anyways. have you ever even used wolf? have you ever even seen a good wolf player? play wolf against a good MK and rewrite your statement.

as for my opinion on hard characters (assuming at pro/pretty good/whatever levels), lucario, toon link, ZSS, wario, sonic, and pikachu are up there. wolf is really tricky too, but i only know that because he's my main.

lol k. look:

I never mentioned that Wolf is the easiest character to use in a competitive environment. You should reread my posts about Wolf, or if you want, I'll explain it: 2 nubs playing who don't know how to punish and just roll dodge all the time... who is the easiest character to succeed more often than most other characters? I think its Wolf, some people think its MK, etc. This is assuming nobody knows how to play the game. I think YOU need to rewrite your statement.

 

[pkmntrainer]

These 10 are the hardest to use in order in my opinion

1 Ice Climbers

2 Marth

3 Diddy Kong

4 Pokemon Trainer

5 Sonic

6 Peach

7 Luigi

8 Snake

9 Zero Suit Samus

10 Wario


Top 10 easiest to use in order, in my opinion

1 Meta Knight

2 Ike

3 Falco

4 Pikachu

5 Wolf

6 Toon Link

7 Lucas

8 King Dedede

9 Yoshi

10 Mario

 

[quirkynature]

These 10 are the hardest to use in order in my opinion

1 Ice Climbers

2 Marth

3 Diddy Kong

4 Pokemon Trainer

5 Sonic

6 Peach

7 Luigi

8 Snake

9 Zero Suit Samus

10 Wario


Top 10 easiest to use in order, in my opinion

1 Meta Knight

2 Ike

3 Falco

4 Pikachu

5 Wolf

6 Toon Link

7 Lucas

8 King Dedede

9 Yoshi

10 Mario

IC definitely. I can't chaingrab for my life. Marth is fairly easy to use (Dancing blade cancelled into f-smash or what you will). Diddy Kong I just don't get. PT is DEFINITELY hardest (Ivysaur is just bad), Sonic is too fast for my liking (and has too few killing moves), Peach I just don't get, Luigi is manageable, Snake's tilts and standard jab combo are pretty much what I use. As an alt ZSS, it's my duty to inform you that her neutral b and d-smash are beastly combo starters. Wario, however, should top that list.

For easy, Meta Knight isn't up there. Ike, sure (I spam his f-air), Toon Link, sure. Link is easy to use (owing to hard hitting and relatively fast moves--not counting FF d-air or grab). Apart from that, you have the list down pat.

 

[Damage Points]

you have to have kirby on your easy list. hes so **** simple. move d3 up a few spots too... i learned ddd in like a week and can wreck havoc with that fattie.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

you have to have kirby on your easy list. hes so **** simple. move d3 up a few spots too... i learned ddd in like a week and can wreck havoc with that fattie.

Don't even. There is literally 1 good, tournament placing Kirby in the entire world, and the second best Kirby doesn't place in anything. There are a LOT of characters that are easy to use badly. Spam bairs moar please.

IC definitely. I can't chaingrab for my life. Marth is fairly easy to use (Dancing blade cancelled into f-smash or what you will). Diddy Kong I just don't get. PT is DEFINITELY hardest (Ivysaur is just bad), Sonic is too fast for my liking (and has too few killing moves), Peach I just don't get, Luigi is manageable, Snake's tilts and standard jab combo are pretty much what I use. As an alt ZSS, it's my duty to inform you that her neutral b and d-smash are beastly combo starters. Wario, however, should top that list.

For easy, Meta Knight isn't up there. Ike, sure (I spam his f-air), Toon Link, sure. Link is easy to use (owing to hard hitting and relatively fast moves--not counting FF d-air or grab). Apart from that, you have the list down pat.

Because your subjective opinions based on your limited experience with characters you don't even main should be considered at all. Since you justified all of your opinions with totally incorrect analyses, I don't see where you're coming from at all. Your reasons for why characters are easy/hard make no sense (i.e. "Snake's tilts and standard jab combo are pretty much what I use").

Rofl at Link's fast attacks. He's easy to use because he doesn't have any good options, so the correct option to use in most cases is to run away and spam.

-----

TL:DR :: Just because it's really easy for people to play characters badly doesn't mean that that information is in any way valuable or even relevant to how difficult a character is to actually play.

 

[Deboog]

How is Metaknight hard to learn? People pick him up as a back when they have a losing matchup with next to no experience. Tornado Tornado Tornado UpB Tornado, Tornado, DSmash DSmash Dead.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Pretty much what he said. You can say whatever you want about Tornado being punishable or whatever. It's a LOT (x1000) easier for him to keep on tornado'ing than it is for you to stop it.

 

[Rekeah]

How is Metaknight hard to learn? People pick him up as a back when they have a losing matchup with next to no experience. Tornado Tornado Tornado UpB Tornado, Tornado, DSmash DSmash Dead.

Ok. First of all, I never said he was hard. I said he was medium. MOST of the cast would be medium, because then the definition of the word "medium" would be faltered. Few characters should be considered Easy and Hard put together by the general smash community, because that's just how AVERAGE works. Second of all, just because MetaKnight is the most superior character in the game does NOT make him easy to use. It might be easy to spam the moves you mentioned to win, but that does NOT mean anybody can use him will full efficiency. Your argument is invalid based on the assumption that, in general, The higher the character is on the tier list, the easier it is for him to use. This is WRONG, and people need to realize WHY. Third of all, his moveset is exactly why I don't think he's easy like some people agree. Whether you think so or not, every single one of his specials take some sort of strategy to pull off at a competitive level. Not only can his Tornado be punished, but so can the rest of his specials. Also, they require skill so that you're never in a bad position if you mess up. The fact that you use most of his moves (with the exception of Utilt and Dash attack) for a different purpose, that shows how much diversity there is with the moveset of MK. Even if he is in the bottom half of "hardest characters to master", there should still be very few "EASY" characters. I BELIEVE that MK is not one of them.

 

[Kitamerby]

MK is easy to learn.

He has so many options, you can literally pick 3 moves that you feel like using, spam them, and you'll still win the match against pretty much anybody not Snake.

My favorites are Dtilt, Dair, and Nair.

If you're going to continue this silly topic, you're better off not arguing about a verdict as easy to set down as Meta Knight's difficulty of play.

 

[Meru.]

Ehh let me try...

1 = somewhat easier
3 = average
5 = somewhat harder

I'm not very knowledgeable about every character have mercy please

Meta Knight- 2 (1?)

Snake- 2 (1?)

Diddy Kong- 4 (5?)

Falco- 3

Ice Climbers- 5

Marth- 3 (4?)

Wario- 4 (3?)

King Dedede- 1

Pikachu- 4 (5?)

Olimar- 2

Lucario- ??

Mr. Game and Watch- 1

Pit- 2??

Toon Link- 3

Zero Suit Samus- 4

Kirby- 1

R.O.B.- 3?

Donkey Kong- 3

Peach- 5

Fox- 3

Luigi- 3

Wolf- ??

Sheik- 5

Pokemon Trainer- 4

Sonic- 3

Ness- 3

Bowser- 4 (??)

Lucas- 2

Ike- 3

Yoshi- 3

Mario- 3

Captain Falcon- 3

Samus- 5

Jigglypuff- 3 (4?)

Zelda- 3 (2?)

Link- 3

Ganondorf- 3

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

@Rekeah: Grounded Shuttle Loop has invincibility frames on startup, and ends laglessly with Glide Attack before you land. It's not punishable if your do it OoS.

Same thing with Tornado done reactively instead of proactively.

Entire characters can be shut down by simply pressing jump and C-stick down at the same time over and over and over again.

etc. etc.

 

[superlucario]

Please don't explode when I say this, But you can camp Metaknight really easy. Because he has no projectiles