Why A Tier List Is Not For Brawl!!

[MaximoSmasher]

It's not elitism just because you happen to not qualify for something.

He's not insulting you for being a Casual player. He's insulting you for being an idiot.

I know you're gay, but do you have to suck on every posters ****?

Oh. I'm not insulting you for being gay, I'm insulting you for being an idiot! :D!

As for tier format, I'm not sure if speed or defense tiers would work out. (but who knows, I'm no tier expert). But the other day I was thinking of assigning classes to characters. Like characters who are (currently) good for projectile spamming could be in a projectile class. Characters good at punishing mistakes could be in a punishment class etc. These "classes" could simply be written by the characters name on the tier list or something. Just an idea though.

Well the more info, the better. But yeah a disclaimer of what a tierlist is, and more of a notion to how better each character is, I think is important.

 

[COMMOFDOOM]

I know you're gay, but do you have to suck on every posters ****?

PS I'm not insulting you for being gay, I'm insulting you for being an idiot! :D!

I know you're gay, but do you have to suck every ****?

PS I'm not insulting you for being gay, I'm insulting you for being an idiot! :D!

 

[MaximoSmasher]

( Man the lag on this board is irritating )

 

[MaximoSmasher]

I know you're yuna, but do you have to suck every ****?

PS I'm not insulting you for being yuna, I'm insulting you for being an idiot! :D!

 

[SilintNinjya]

i think a chart of who counters who most effectively is better than a tier list, but it does require more work.

maybe work them into 4 or 5 groups. A counters B counters C counters D, blah blah. people "across" from your group are considered neutral fights.

 

[Yuna]

Hope you didn't miss the irony there.

At least I know how to debate adequately. You have yet to defeat a single counter-argument/argument in this thread and categorically ignore counter-arguments and arguments that destroy your arguments.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

i think a chart of who counters who most effectively is better than a tier list, but it does require more work.

maybe work them into 4 or 5 groups. A counters B counters C counters D, blah blah. people "across" from your group are considered neutral fights.

Yeah I don't see why people are against that.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

i think a chart of who counters who most effectively is better than a tier list, but it does require more work.

maybe work them into 4 or 5 groups. A counters B counters C counters D, blah blah. people "across" from your group are considered neutral fights.

Yeah, I don't see why people are against that.

 

[OddCrow]

Maximo Smasher, you want all the wrong things, for all the wrong reasons, and will likely get your head bashed in with a ban-hammer for being derogatory in your posts.

What are you even fighting for anymore? A trophy? A cookie? I for one hope you want some common sense, as you seem to have none. You just seem like someone who should belong to the ACLU.

 

[Yuna]

Yeah, I don't see why people are against that.

Why would we be against it? Especially when we've already made such a chart.

Did you totally miss it when it was posted a few pages back? A list where every single matchup is ranked. We did it for Melee. We'll do it for Brawl (most competitive fighting games also have such a chart made for them by the community).

Not surprisingly, the Top Tiers had the least bad matchups and most often only against each other.

It's yet another tool to help people seeking quick answers. But why aren't you against it? I mean, shouldn't people try to figure it out on their own through extensive play (you argued this yourself)? What if people misuse it? They'll just play as the character(s) with the least bad matchups and then get a secondary to handle the bad one(s). This would concentrate gameplay on those specific characters, making the metagame exploration of the rest of the cast suffer.

Woe is you!

 

[OddCrow]

I'll post on behalf of MaximoSmasher on this one

"It's yet another tool to help people seeking quick answers. But why aren't you against it? I mean, shouldn't people try to figure it out on their own through extensive play (you argued this yourself)? What if people misuse it? They'll just play as the character(s) with the least bad matchups and then get a secondary to handle the bad one(s). This would concentrate gameplay on those specific characters, making the metagame exploration of the rest of the cast suffer." - Yuna

I'd waste time arguing that but they are all good points, so, instead, I'll dodge around the obviously relevant points you made and just call you gay, use the word tierwhore a couple times, and just generally dig my grave deeper.

You're welcome MS, I just saved you some time on this one.

 

[Kashakunaki]

This... is... ugh... I'm doing my best not to be blunt and go on a raving tangent..... errgh

This is... very... very simple.

Brawl... is a fighting game. Like Real Time Strategy games, such as Star Craft and Age of Empires, balance is key to the success of such a game. No character or unit or whatever can out do all other units, or a unit, without a counter or balance of some sort.

However, you can work on a game of this calibur... for any number of years... and still not achieve total balance... for this reason.......... a RTS or fighting game... will never be COMPLETELY balanced...

That is why tiers exsist. Tier is basically another way of saying "this character's advantages over all other character's"

If you... believe that this game is entirely balanced... or that character advantages and counters don't exsist... you... are ********...

 

[KageJuin]

Tiers are 4 Queers

I agree that you can make a Tier list though, but it's only the product of who people play as

in melee characters were pretty unbalanced, but in Brawl it's different, I guess there might be a Tier list, but it'll be way less extreme than the melee one

 

[SilintNinjya]

Did you totally miss it when it was posted a few pages back?

yes, i did. and i still dont see it. if would be so kind as to re-post or even just tell me the number of the post that its in, ill shut up.

 

[Yuna]

I'll post on behalf of MaximoSmasher on this one

I'd waste time arguing that but they are all good points, so, instead, I'll dodge around the obviously relevant points you made and just call you gay, use the word tierwhore a couple times, and just generally dig my grave deeper.

You're welcome MS, I just saved you some time on this one.

You captured his essence perfectly! What a marvellous artist you are.

 

[Mooplet]

Okay, this has sorta... got off track from the original discussion.


@ Specific tier lists:

Speed tier, defense tier etc doesn't make sense IMO because the tiers are supposed to be more holistic than that, e.g. Marth is top tier because he has the most favorable matchups, not Marth is top speed tier because he has the most favorable matchups in terms of speed. If that makes sense...

I don't think it's possible for anyone to 'abuse' the tiers anyway. What's the worst that can happen, they'll play good characters?


@Yuna: Earlier in the thread I just commented on your phrasing, that's all, hehe sorry. I know that (obviously) all we know is present-tense and is reflected therefore in the tiers. But someone else had said that the tiers breeding high-tier-players would result in lack of playing another character and the halt of game progression among other, low-tier characters. Which is why i wanted to make sure it sounded like tiers have to be constantly fluid, or at least have the capacity to change.

Yes, Yoshi sucks balls as of now, lol.

 

[SilintNinjya]

i still dont see the chart =[ i went back like 8 pages and saw nothing =[ =[

 

[Yuna]

i still dont see the chart =[ i went back like 8 pages and saw nothing =[ =[

It was actually 7 pages ago (page 13). The pic itself was not posted, though.

Just a link to the thread with it:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92025

The chart is not completely accurate, though (Melee also suffers from regional differences). But there are matchup threads in each characters' Sub-forum where we debate each matchup. In time, we'll try to compose an as accurate as possible chart for Brawl.

 

[Crizthakidd]

i dare you to make a tier list for brawl. not only would u have to wait a full year and countless tournaments, you have to take into account that the smartest smashers will be insanlely biased. they will just have to much melee in their heads to judge right.

dont compare the game to melee. im for a tier list as long as you recongnize this new game with a lot of new techs but the same "smash sense"

 

[SilintNinjya]

It was actually 7 pages ago (page 13). The pic itself was not posted, though.

Just a link to the thread with it:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92025

The chart is not completely accurate, though (Melee also suffers from regional differences). But there are matchup threads in each characters' Sub-forum where we debate each matchup. In time, we'll try to compose an as accurate as possible chart for Brawl.

ooooo....ya, i knew there was one for melee....but we need one for brawl is what i meant. i think its MUCH more accurate than a tier list, and i think this holds MORE true for brawl than melee. i can easily see this game coming down to what type of character you are against the type the other person is, more so than just which character you are. i see it breaking down into the following types (imo, and your welcome to disagree)

A- hard and heavy - ike, bowser, ddd, etc (pretty obvious)
B- hard and light - zelda, lucas and some others (very strong, but very light)
C- ranged - falco, link, maybe pit (again, obvious)
D- fast and light - lucario, shiek, etc etc

i think that Bs can defeat As, As can defeat Ds, Ds can defeat Cs, and Cs can defeat Bs. diagonal matches are much more neutral. for example, zelda vs lucario - as long as zelda can keep lucario off of her back and at that slight range (think about her fair and her smashes) then she has the advantage.

but, i think a character can also occupy more than 1 of these groups, and that can lead them to be a very strong character. pit and lucario maybe the best examples. they can fight ranged and they can combo rather effectively.

dont go on about brawl not having combos, thats not the point

 

[Yuna]

ooooo....ya, i knew there was one for melee....but we need one for brawl is what i meant. i think its MUCH more accurate than a tier list, and i think this holds MORE true for brawl than melee. i can easily see this game coming down to what type of character you are against the type the other person is, more so than just which character you are. i see it breaking down into the following types (imo, and your welcome to disagree)

In time, there will be one.

Doesn't mean a Tier List can't be made as well. The Tier List will be equally as accurate if enough time is invested into both. It's just that one will elaborate more than the other.

A- hard and heavy - ike, bowser, ddd, etc (pretty obvious)
B- hard and light - zelda, lucas and some others (very strong, but very light)
C- ranged - falco, link, maybe pit (again, obvious)
D- fast and light - lucario, shiek, etc etc

It's not that easy.

dont go on about brawl not having combos, thats not the point

Umm... what?

 

[SilintNinjya]

In time, there will be one.

Doesn't mean a Tier List can't be made as well. The Tier List will be equally as accurate if enough time is invested into both. It's just that one will elaborate more than the other.


It's not that easy.


Umm... what?

im sure there will eventually be one for brawl...id rather them take their time and get one out that is GOOD...but i just think that, for how my mind thinks, that kind of chart works better and makes more sense.

maybe it isnt that easy...but i dont think its too complicated either.

a lot of people on these boards rant about there not being combos in brawl and i had a combo group. i was worried someone was going to explode about "THAR ERNT NE COMBOS IN BAWL"

 

[OddCrow]

Um, they could make a tier list today based on the current status of the game.

It would be just as accurate as one made in 2 years, even if they are totally different.

A tier represents the current trends of tourney goers and an advantage if played at the top of the metagame.

 

[Yuna]

im sure there will eventually be one for brawl...id rather them take their time and get one out that is GOOD...but i just think that, for how my mind thinks, that kind of chart works better and makes more sense.

And how long would it have to take for you to be satisfied? A year? Two? Five?

No one's advocating a definite tierlist be created right now. Some people, however, are advocating that no tierlist ever be made. To oppose this notion is not tantamount to wanting a tierlist at this very minute.

 

[shadydentist]

I anticipate it will be at least six months until SBR releases a tier lists. I could be way off the mark, but I would imagine they would want to see some major tournaments first.

 

[SilintNinjya]

And how long would it have to take for you to be satisfied? A year? Two? Five?

No one's advocating a definite tierlist be created right now. Some people, however, are advocating that no tierlist ever be made. To oppose this notion is not tantamount to wanting a tierlist at this very minute.

well im not advocating a tierlist so much as i am a counter chart. and how long? well i think we should wait perhaps a year till the list gets made, and then update it as often as needed. i dont think the list is made once and set in stone.

 

[Yuna]

well im not advocating a tierlist so much as i am a counter chart. and how long? well i think we should wait perhaps a year till the list gets made, and then update it as often as needed. i dont think the list is made once and set in stone.

Tierlists are never set in stone. If new information surfaces that changess the list, it will be changed. It's not a matter of what you or I think, it's fact.

History shows us this. Tierlists are made and if changes are needed, changes are made.

 

[SilintNinjya]

well if you believe that, why was it necessary to ask when the tier list would come out if its always changing? in theory we could make one right now. it might be shody, but we could technically do it. then we would just update it as time went on.

......is it just me or do you enjoy debates? it feels like you look for something to "debate" about. maybe you dont even mean to do it. i know thats how i am in real life (on forums i try to stop and read through what i say after its typed and sometimes i decide just to not post).

 

[Mama]

well if you believe that, why was it necessary to ask when the tier list would come out if its always changing? in theory we could make one right now. it might be shody, but we could technically do it. then we would just update it as time went on.

......is it just me or do you enjoy debates? it feels like you look for something to "debate" about. maybe you dont even mean to do it. i know thats how i am in real life (on forums i try to stop and read through what i say after its typed and sometimes i decide just to not post).

Lol.

Well I think the only reason we don't have one yet is because it just feels too early. Even though people know the lists change when new information surfaces. I guess they just feel like its too early. People probably still feel like they're newbs in this game and aren't comfortable with what they're doing. That and the metagame is still a bit too shaky to judge (imo). But who knows. We could make one now and yes it would be just as valid as one made months later but it would be based off of a very very limited amount of knowledge about this game.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

......is it just me or do you enjoy debates? it feels like you look for something to "debate" about. maybe you dont even mean to do it. i know thats how i am in real life (on forums i try to stop and read through what i say after its typed and sometimes i decide just to not post).

That's basically what I was doing, but now I just continued to post because I think Yuna is a misreble little boy who hates Sakurai because he didn't make the game he wanted ( oh BOOO HOOO )....But I shouldn't be posting just to annoy him so I won't continue anymore.

 

[SilintNinjya]

Well I think the only reason we don't have one yet is because it just feels too early. Even though people know the lists change when new information surfaces. I guess they just feel like its too early. People probably still feel like they're newbs in this game and aren't comfortable with what they're doing. That and the metagame is still a bit too shaky to judge (imo). But who knows. We could make one now and yes it would be just as valid as one made months later but it would be based off of a very very limited amount of knowledge about this game.

true true. i do agree with you. that was the point i was trying to make, but it would appear you are better with words....

That's basically what I was doing, but now I just continued to post because I think Yuna is a misreble little boy who hates Sakurai because he didn't make the game he wanted ( oh BOOO HOOO )....But I shouldn't be posting just to annoy him so I won't continue anymore.

...and that was just uncalled for. yuna is allowed to like melee more. there will always be people that like the "other" game. i bet you cant name a SINGLE sequel where at least ONE person though that the first game was better.

personally, i really love brawl. its a lot more fun for non-competitive matches, and i realllllly love the pace for competitive matches. i know a lot of "higher ups" might disagree with me and i miss crouch canceling (from a run, to lower knock back, and the ability to cstick down while crouching)...too me, thats been the biggest loss. i dont like tripping either. but at least for now, its a welcome change from melee. while i know that there arent any more true combos like their used to be, i feel like its more about mind games. i know what this game is missing, and its not perfect, trust me, i know. but its FUN. and thats what games are about.

 

[GoForkUrself]

I still haven't adjusted to the lack of crouch cancelling and take a nice 20% sometimes from fox's rapid neutral A attacks.

Anyway, my thoughts are that a counter list would be more appropriate for this game than a standard tier list. My favorite character is Ike, and he is probably who I can use the most tricks effectively with(JC, RAR, both spikes, hyphen smash, grand viper etc.) however he is horribly matched against Wolf, Marth and sometimes Pit and I struggle vs those characters. Now if I use King Dedede, I effortlessly own Wolf, Marth and Pit, but then struggle against characters like kirby and olimar(no chain grab ). Now with Ike I own Kirby and Olimar easily.

It's because of things like this that I would prefer to see a counter list, and maybe a 2-3 rank tier list just so peach, captain falcon, and yoshi and a couple others have a place they fit in because besides the few unusable characters, they are pretty much all are well-matched against a good portion of the characters and well-countered by fairly equal portion as well.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

...and that was just uncalled for. yuna is allowed to like melee more. there will always be people that like the "other" game. i bet you cant name a SINGLE sequel where at least ONE person though that the first game was better.

Please read what I said, there is a BIG DIFFRENCE in prefering Melee, and calling someone clearly more intellgent, talented, and creative than you are "stupid".

 

[Yuna]

Please read what I said, there is a BIG DIFFRENCE in prefering Melee, and calling someone clearly more intellgent, talented, and creative than you are "stupid".

"calling someone clearly more intellgent, talented, and creative than you are "stupid""?

Did you also just call yourself more intelligent, talented and creative than I am? I'll give you creative if we're talking about the arts since I draw only humans (I did a pretty good job at drawing a still life a bottle the other day, but it's not something I do often).

Talented? In what, Brawl because you think a tier list is not necessary? Intelligent? Because you ignore all arguments and counter-arguments you can't refute, haven't been able to refute a single one of my arguments insofar, regularly flame people in order to reduce their credibility (in your mind) and stick to your argument which is 100% opinion with zero facts to back it up?

Oh yeah, I bow down to your superiority.

At least my opinion of you has nothing to do with what you think about Melee or Brawl.

 

[BC-Chris]

your dumb and there gonna make a teir list for brawl

 

[ledhead]

That's basically what I was doing, but now I just continued to post because I think Yuna is a misreble little boy who hates Sakurai because he didn't make the game he wanted ( oh BOOO HOOO )....But I shouldn't be posting just to annoy him so I won't continue anymore.

Please read what I said, there is a BIG DIFFRENCE in prefering Melee, and calling someone clearly more intellgent, talented, and creative than you are "stupid".

That's just pure immaturity. GTFO, and grow a pair before even considering coming back.

It's because of ppl like Maximo why forums are ruined really fast.

@Maximo:

Get over the fact that your opinion is not shared by everyone else, actually try to understand what they're trying to tell you. Cease posting until you realize why you are failing at arguments. The only real support you have for you opinion is your own ego. Stop trying to emotionally hurt people by using immature statements I laughed at in 3rd grade. It does not work. It is because of behavior like this that certain people are classified as "n00bs".

 

[Tino's White Horse]

Where's my Team Fortress 2 tier list?

Top tier
Soldier
Demoman

High Tier
Pyro
Sniper

Middle tier
Heavy
Scout

Low Tier
Medic
Spy

Bottom Tier
Engineer

NO PICKUPS
NO CRITS
SOLDIER ONLY
MELEE MOUNTAIN

 

[Grmo]

This would be fine, but your arguments are strange.

1) It's well known that a skilled Bowser player in Melee could **** a Fox player (See: Gimpyfish, Arash). Nothing has changed in that respect.

2) This is my biggest problem with this post: how is it that Melee promoted identical playing styles? There are tons of different playing styles, especially at higher levels. Compare Azen and Mew2King's marth...do they seem at all similar? If you had actually looked carefully at how people play at tournaments, you would know this already. By looking carefully I also mean observing your opponents while you play.

3) How does Brawl promote individuality in playing styles? You didn't make that very clear. The only thing you really said was that there's a lot of diversity (which there was also in Melee) and that characters are more balanced out. That doesn't really make sense.

4) Melee was all about edgeguarding? So you're saying that everything happening off the edge was meaningless? I'm not sure about this, but it seems like you're missing the most important part of the game: how to get combos, get your opponents off the edge, and get a stock off of them. There's an enourmously deep world of strategy in that game that you sort of skipped in your argument. Anyway, even if it was true that Melee's tiers were based off of edgeguarding ability...it doesn't mean that since Brawl's edgeguarding system is harder, that tiers are irrelevant. There's a whole world of playing on the ground. Obviously if edgeguarding is gone, then there will have to be new ways of killing people. Whoever can do that best is top tier, which is why tiers are still relevant.

5) None of the differences you pointed out are really differences. For example, "Players make new play styles based on the character and none of them play the same." Why is that? You didn't back it up. Again, it's not true that everyone in Melee played the same. If that was true then there would never be anyone who was better. Let me remind you that those who have typical or common playing styles are the ones that lose.

In conclusion: tiers are still relevant because there will always be those who are better unless every character is exactly the same. On that note, I seem to remember people thinking Melee was mre balanced at one point too. Like when they thought Roy was good. It's possible that our opinions on this game will change too. IMO they already are, but we'll just have to see. It's good that you're sharing your ideas with the community though. This kind of stuff will help people learn.

 

[Yuna]

This would be fine, but your arguments are strange.

1) It's well known that a skilled Bowser player in Melee could **** a Fox player (See: Gimpyfish, Arash). Nothing has changed in that respect.

And? I can **** Foxes as Zelda. It depends on which Fox I'm playing against.

Any character can **** any character if the gap in skill is large enough. The tierlist assumes that both parties are of roughly equal skill. Also, individual matchups. Even Low Tiers have favourable and even matchups against the Top Tiers.

 

[kamekasu]

And? I can **** Foxes as Zelda. It depends on which Fox I'm playing against.

Any character can **** any character if the gap in skill is large enough. The tierlist assumes that both parties are of roughly equal skill. Also, individual matchups. Even Low Tiers have favourable and even matchups against the Top Tiers.

This is the problem. MaximumTomato and his friends do not understand what a tier list is. Maybe they should find out how it works, and how it is developed? Quoted from the SmashWiki:

"Controversy arises periodically over the existence of tiers, most notably during the "tier wars" at GameFAQs and Smashboards. Some smashers, called "anti-tiers," argue that every character can be played equally well. In support of this argument, they claim that the tier list creates a cycle in which players choose only higher-tiered characters, and thus only those characters develop an advanced metagame, thereby reinforcing the tier list.

The unanimous consensus of competitive players, however, is that tiers do exist. They argue that it would be almost impossible to balance a game of unlike characters - without specific redesign, characters would have the tendency to fall into tiers, by dint of their myriad variables (differing attack power, running speed, etc.). Furthermore, the developers cannot foresee top-level strategies, and thus even their deliberate efforts could fail to balance the game at a professional level. Years of empirical results support this conclusion as well; national tournament-winners of Melee almost always use Marth, Fox, Falco and Sheik.

The list itself, of course, is subject to change at any time: the metagame shifts largely, changing the tier list throughout the years. Anti-tiers use this point to argue that the tier list can't be true if it changes. Pro-tiers respond by pointing out that it may be true for a particular, static metagame, and that this argument doesn't weigh against the existence of tiers themselves, but merely against a particular meta-game.

Tiers exist at all levels of play, though the rankings are highly changed from casual play to competitive play, due to different strategies and a different meta-game from the tournament level."

Notice the bolded text.

I don't think any of these people realize that Yuna is a BRoomer, and actually takes part in the development of the tier list.