Why aren't there seasons?

[prog]

Sorry to close out the 64/Brawl crew, but I really don't know enough about their scenes to speak about what I've observed.

I spent a bit of the weekend watching MLG Dallas and realized that there really isn't a feeling of ending with our events. We have Apex, we have Genesis. But the paths there are muddled and kind of...uncertain.

So, was at my desk, and this came to mind:

Spring Season and Fall Season.

We have our two major events in APEX and Genesis. We have a lot of great semi-majors/regionals (Impulse, Tipped Off, DGDTJ, Northwest Manifest,The Big House, FC, Pound, Kings of Cali, RoM, etc.). Why don't we attempt to turn these into circuits? Those major events give out seeding points to be used at that season's final tournament. So, the winner of The Big House gets as many points as the winner of say, Kings of Cali, as the winner of Tipped Off, as the winner of RoM (and we also factor in events in Mexico, Europe, etc.).

In addition, we have these regional events...what if certain locals lead up to them? For example, the Atlantic North circuit. One month, it might be a No Johns that has the seeding points. The next, they head to Xanadu in MD/VA. Then Mass Madness, etc. Those points are all given out toward seeding of regionals. In addition, it makes locals matter for more than just bragging rights.

This is all being hashed out as I'm eating lunch, so sorry if its not making too much sense.

So, lets just make a quick example.

Mango wins a local that was on the circuit toward the fall finale. He gets X points for that. Meanwhile, Silent Wolf wins a local in his area, same circuit, same amount of points. M2K wins one in NY, Hbox wins one in the south, Ice wins one in Europe, etc. They all have the same number of seeding points for the fall qualifiers. So, as the season goes on, these points are cumulative. If mango goes to Big House, KoC, NWM, and whatever other "qualifier" is out there, the seeding points are applicable to each of them.

He wins 2 out of those 3 events, those points are only applicable to the season finale of APEX, etc.
-------

Again, this needs refining, just a thought.

 

[MattDotZeb]

I think this is great.

All in all it seems to be that there is very little reason this could not happen.

New England put into effect it's own mini-season last year that encompassed 5 events leading into a finale that, quite literally, was put together in 2 weeks. With semi-majors/regionals having relatively set date blocks I would think that having a Fall Season beginning this year is 100% possible. Something like Tipped Off (SouthEast), BH (MidWest), Something (Cali/West Coast -- WC Speak up!), RoM (NorthEast), Something (South/SouthWest -- Texas, help out! I have no idea what sort of major tournaments are in your vicinity) and whatever major intl events are around around between July 1st and December 31st should be sufficient.

 

[CanISmash]

There'd have to be a colloboration between tourney hosts.
I don't really see the point though, it seems like it's just adding meaningless numbers to players who we already know more or less where they stand for seeding. And something like mang0 going unseeded wouldnt really affect him as much as all the people he'd be eliminating.

For it to work i think there needs to be an incentive. Like whats the clear difference if mango shows up at apex vs goes to all the tourneys leading up to it.

On an unrelated note as far as evo goes, i was wondering how we were helpin build the community, as opposed to one tourney than back in the shadows. Maybe we should have some new player / fgc player incentive. Like the highest fgc player wins x amount of money so long as x new fgc players enter

 

[hectohertz]

i think this is a good idea

esp if it helps establish "end of season" big events and gives us some regularity. it can be hard to track what all the big majors are during the year (not the HUGE ones like apex, but the majors)

a schedule/season kind of deal would be great

 

[HollaAtchaBoy]

Sign me up.

 

[Nintendude]

I feel like trying to implement seasons into competitive Smash is kind of like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole (pardon the cliche). This isn't like team sports where there is an offseason during which players get traded around, players retire, and rookies join the sport. In Smash there is no abrupt change from year to year. Everything gradually comes and goes (with Armada's abrupt retirement being kind of an exception).

The only major value I see to adding seasons is to have more structure, but I'm not sure how feasible that is in practice. A lot of our tournament dates tend to get set based on venue availability which is kind of out of our control at times.

I'm not trying to say this is a bad idea, but I think we need a really clear idea of what we can accomplish with seasons that we aren't already able to achieve. Something I think would be AWESOME is collecting and reporting player statistics like every "real" sport does. Imagine if you could preview a match based on stats such as winning percentage, counterpick win percentage, edgeguarding percentage, average stocks lost per game, etc. Obviously this would require an extraordinary amount of effort, but sports analysts love crunching numbers and people love talking about them. It would make Smash even more fun to follow as a spectator, which is kind of what having seasons tends to accomplish anyway.

 

[Ether]

Something I think would be AWESOME is collecting and reporting player statistics like every "real" sport does. Imagine if you could preview a match based on stats such as winning percentage, counterpick win percentage, edgeguarding percentage, average stocks lost per game, etc. Obviously this would require an extraordinary amount of effort, but sports analysts love crunching numbers and people love talking about them. It would make Smash even more fun to follow as a spectator, which is kind of what having seasons tends to accomplish anyway.

This is the coolest smash idea I have ever heard, EVER.

 

[pokemongeof]

I like this!

 

[clowsui]

nintendude i'm gonna tell you that stats have been tried before for FGs and they're a tremendous effort lol. glenn cravens (@gyt) quit doing them after a while because they were so tedious to do on his own + no one seemed to care

also to counter your point about venue availability: it's an increasing trend that large tournaments that have good hosts try to scout out their dates 6-8 months ahead of time. all you really have to do is announce the names and which time period of the season they'll be in (early/middle/late), and then have TOs collaborate w one another in terms of securing dates

 

[prog]

I feel like trying to implement seasons into competitive Smash is kind of like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole (pardon the cliche). This isn't like team sports where there is an offseason during which players get traded around, players retire, and rookies join the sport. In Smash there is no abrupt change from year to year. Everything gradually comes and goes (with Armada's abrupt retirement being kind of an exception).

The only major value I see to adding seasons is to have more structure, but I'm not sure how feasible that is in practice. A lot of our tournament dates tend to get set based on venue availability which is kind of out of our control at times.

I'm not trying to say this is a bad idea, but I think we need a really clear idea of what we can accomplish with seasons that we aren't already able to achieve. Something I think would be AWESOME is collecting and reporting player statistics like every "real" sport does. Imagine if you could preview a match based on stats such as winning percentage, counterpick win percentage, edgeguarding percentage, average stocks lost per game, etc. Obviously this would require an extraordinary amount of effort, but sports analysts love crunching numbers and people love talking about them. It would make Smash even more fun to follow as a spectator, which is kind of what having seasons tends to accomplish anyway.

That first point, agreed, this isn't a team sport. There is no designated offseason. However, players do move (Vanz becoming Midwest after years in NYC). Players retire, look at Armada. Heck, I can't think of the last time I saw PC at an event. Wife apparently hasn't entered anything since early 2012. Rookies joining the sport? Hanky Panky coming out of nowhere. Things are generally gradual, yes, which means we have an easier compass to work with while marking all of this. A fan of Westballz wants to see his rise from season to season, its easy to do. Kage is declining, a ganon main wants to bring it up? There are figures. RaynEX comes out of retirement, can he keep up? The numbers are there. Player X wants to see their own evolution, their first season getting 4 points before eventually making it to top 4, etc.

Yeah, I know when every FGC major rolls around GYT took notes on everything, first hit leading to victory, etc. That would be fascinating, but again, would require a lot of effort from someone.

 

[pokemongeof]

However, players do move (Vanz becoming Midwest after years in NYC). Players retire, look at Armada. Heck, I can't think of the last time I saw PC at an event. Wife apparently hasn't entered anything since early 2012. Rookies joining the sport? Hanky Panky coming out of nowhere. Things are generally gradual, yes, which means we have an easier compass to work with while marking all of this. A fan of Westballz wants to see his rise from season to season, its easy to do. Kage is declining, a ganon main wants to bring it up? There are figures. RaynEX comes out of retirement, can he keep up? The numbers are there. Player X wants to see their own evolution, their first season getting 4 points before eventually making it to top 4, etc.

Yeah, I know when every FGC major rolls around GYT took notes on everything, first hit leading to victory, etc. That would be fascinating, but again, would require a lot of effort from someone.

I definetley agree with this! I feel i'm a new edition to the rookies!

I hope there is a season with a tourney like Apex! I WANT TO GO TO MORE REGIONAL/INTERNATIONAL TOURNAMENTS!

Please, don't close Apex 2014 and beyond, and Revive Revivial of Melee!

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

just want to point out tennis which is not a team sport has seasons. Plus i have always felt the tennis system with majors fits smash pretty nicely

 

[Nintendude]

Good responses all around. I must admit I know nothing about competitive tennis but I can picture that being a good comparison since it's all individuals just like Smash is.

The stat keeping thing was just an idea - I don't expect that to ever happen. In order for that to become a reality, we'd need to create a scorecard that we can train people to fill out properly, particularly when matches aren't recorded. It would require a ton of individuals (who would likely want to be paid) and is really prone to error. It just isn't practical for our community right now but I could see it happening on a very small scale involving only a few of the top top players.

 

[pokemongeof]

Just wondering, will Apex still be going on?

Also, will RoM, Genesis, etc. be revived?

If RoM is, then I can go to another big tourney!

 

[prog]

The stat keeping thing was just an idea - I don't expect that to ever happen. In order for that to become a reality, we'd need to create a scorecard that we can train people to fill out properly, particularly when matches aren't recorded. It would require a ton of individuals (who would likely want to be paid) and is really prone to error. It just isn't practical for our community right now but I could see it happening on a very small scale involving only a few of the top top players.

Maybe something basic for just stream matches:

1. Percent when player that gets first hit gets first kill
2. Percent when player that gets first grab gets first kill
3. Average death percent for each character per game (to show stage variety)
4. Number of kills off the top, side, etc.
5. Failed edgeguards
6. How many techchases per game, etc.

I might just tweet Glenn later and ask what he'd collect if he were doing this for a smash event.

 

[MattDotZeb]

Maybe something basic for just stream matches:

1. Percent when player that gets first hit gets first kill
2. Percent when player that gets first grab gets first kill
3. Average death percent for each character per game (to show stage variety)
4. Number of kills off the top, side, etc.
5. Failed edgeguards
6. How many techchases per game, etc.

I might just tweet Glenn later and ask what he'd collect if he were doing this for a smash event.

Oh man. I've done a ridiculous amount of thinking on this. Posting ideas after work today.

Oh I hope there stays an effort to make melee incorporate more statistics.

 

[Nintendude]

Here's the stats I'd be particularly interested in that wouldn't be that hard to keep track of:

Matches played
Winning percentage (just an overall stat for matches)
Counterpick winning percentage - would indicate how effective a player's counterpicks are
Average stocks lost per game (or something similar) - analogous to something like ERA (baseball) or GAA (hockey)

These would require a notetaker or recorded footage:

Edgeguarding percentage (this would be particularly interesting imo)
Average death percent
Average KO percent
Percent vertical KOs
Average SDs per game

Something else that could be cool is to sort of emulate the "coaches poll" systems seen in many college sports, We could have a panel of prominent TOs be the "coaches" and do it monthly rather than weekly. This wouldn't be hard to do at all but it would have more significance if there were some basic stats to present alongside it (winning percentage, at the very least).

 

[Ryobeat]

prog, i think you should discuss this on MIOM with the host of major tournaments to see how they feel (Alukard, Juggleguy, Boback, etc) and also take call ins. and start a summer circuit nation wide.

 

[ChKn]

So prog, are you saying for Local tournament results to feed into regionals then regionals into nationals? The bridge from locals to nationals would be much more difficult than say if you just did regionals to nationals, at least in terms of coordination. Plus, you'd have to figure out what system to put everyone on (ELO, basic points, etc.).

Do like the idea BTW. Right now in LA, we have sponsored locals for Brawl/Melee/64 which feed into finale tournaments in the summer and winter.

 

[Kason Birdman]

I think it sounds feasible. Honestly, it actually sounds easy.
We would need a few things. One list of all the guidelines and rules and what-nots of how everything would be formally constructed. Someone can right this, put it into a thread, get the ***** stickied.
and then I feel that there would need to be one person from each region designated to coordinate events that would distribute points, and keep track of those points. (like a head TO for each region, maybe more than one)
points at locals awarded for regional seedings
points at regionals awarded for nationals/season finale major thingies (gen/apex)
winner of majors crowned best player of that season

 

[N1c2k3]

I've thought something like this would be cool for quite a while. I feel like players get more ambitious when there's something to work towards (an end of season "major", etc) and that it generates more hype. I feel like Melee's lost a good deal of hype the past few years with the tech ceiling plateauing for the most part, as well as a lot of the old school players retiring and the top tourney results being fairly consistent as of late. I think a smart shift in the way tournies are run, with a more substantive title or prize ("season champ", etc) would help to re-invigorate the community, possibly...

 

[Kason Birdman]

wow also stat collection would be AMAZING! add such depth to commentary.

 

[Vulcan55]

I've thought something like this would be cool for quite a while. I feel like players get more ambitious when there's something to work towards (an end of season "major", etc) and that it generates more hype. I feel like Melee's lost a good deal of hype the past few years with the tech ceiling plateauing for the most part, as well as a lot of the old school players retiring and the top tourney results being fairly consistent as of late. I think a smart shift in the way tournies are run, with a more substantive title or prize ("season champ", etc) would help to re-invigorate the community, possibly...

Two words;


Championship.

Belt.

 

[pokemongeof]

Two words;


Championship.

Belt.

Genius.

Also more low tier and new player tounrmanets

 

[KrIsP!]

Seasons in the context of esports is an interesting idea but you have to ask what it really brings to the community.

Having a group of tournaments lead up to Apex or Genesis in order to give out seeding points to multiple regions is nice and all, but we expect the TOs of those tournaments to do proper seeding anyways and I'm sure they take the results of large tournaments into account anyways. Of course, being able to name the champion of each season and count up the points to find our champion of the year, that would be a cool idea. A points system does go along with the player recognition ideas although the SSBPD sort of does this and solves seeding for us.

So other than having a season in order to have a formal title, what's the point? Not saying I don't like the idea, I think it just needs more to it before we can get a bunch of TOs behind the idea. If, for example, it was possible to monetize the seasons, whether it be a season's pass for people who plan on going to more than 3 tournies in the season or sponsors who would like to have their name in front of the season and be the official sponsor for every tournament accepted into it. This does fall under how we can attract sponsors, though. Being able to have stipends for the season closers and pot bonuses to attract the big competition to the smaller tournaments would help grow the scene immensely...but you need to get money for that.

I do like the idea of having two formal seasons for the year, but it needs to have a purpose. I believe Nintendude said that we don't have offseasons or a need for them like athletic sports, so why do we need to have seasons like them? I mean, there definitely are reasons, I just want more people to help flesh out this idea rather than pat prog on the back and have it go no where like the badge system everyone apparently liked (but disagreed on the implementation of).

 

[Kason Birdman]

I think the formality and structure of it all is in itself beneficial enough. It would present the community better, make us seem more professional. Which of course, as you touched on krisp, would garnish interest from big name sponsors and communities.
It may be tough to make a transition into it, and it would take loads of initiative, but once a groovy flow is established it would really just add a nice sense of structure to the community as a whole. All in all, it would give people more incentive to get better, something to strive for. From there the community could only grow more and more.

 

[prog]

I think the formality and structure of it all is in itself beneficial enough. It would present the community better, make us seem more professional. Which of course, as you touched on krisp, would garnish interest from big name sponsors and communities.
It may be tough to make a transition into it, and it would take loads of initiative, but once a groovy flow is established it would really just add a nice sense of structure to the community as a whole. All in all, it would give people more incentive to get better, something to strive for. From there the community could only grow more and more.

Yeah, locals are bragging rights, why not make X locals per region count for seeding at the regionals?

Of course, this requires a lot of organization, a few TOs to stop their rivalries and work together.........so yeah, probably won't happen.

Prove me wrong.

 

[Kason Birdman]

Prove me wrong.

you heard dat call out.
lets see some people step up.

by all means I am down to help organize this in ontario, running tournaments in hamilton and the st.
i'll talk to another TO this sat

 

[Juggleguy]

just want to point out tennis which is not a team sport has seasons. Plus i have always felt the tennis system with majors fits smash pretty nicely

I do really like the "Grand Slam" of majors in tennis and I think Smash could have the same thing with the proper collaboration on the part of the national TOs. Four majors per year, one in each broad region in the US, with each major expected to be heavily Melee-focused and comfortably draw at least 100+ every year. The only three currently active series I can think of that fit the bill are Kings of Cali, Big House, and RoM... so step it up South, we need you guys to complete the quadrangle.

 

[Nintendude]

South already has Tipped Off. People have just chose to ignore it the past couple years though.

 

[Juggleguy]

I don't think it has exceeded 100 entrants in any of its eight installments, though. That's gotta change, and it's up to the players to show up in numbers.

 

[metalmonstar]

I had thought about this a while ago. I was thinking of trying to create a regional TO organization. Were we planned and organized events, worked together on marketing and advertising, and shared resources. In the East Coast their used to be a East Coast Regional Circuit, but that died out it seems in the early years of Brawl. The idea of locals leading to state, leading to regionals, leading to Nationals, and then possibly international is such a great idea to me.

The advantage of such a system is that it encourages participation amongst not only players but organizers as well. In order to create something so organized TOs would have to pull together and collaborate on events. TOs would learn so much from working with each other. Not to mention the quality of events would naturally go up as TOs in the local area would work together to plan and prepare for states and regionals.

On the player side, more players would attend as each event would have meaning. More players is almost always a good thing. Especially when tournaments have such a large social value as well as the competitive value. Also for the players it would bring in a sense of unification and organization. It removes a lot of the guesswork for players. Will this be worth my time? Will the event be run well? Will people even show up? Which event should I go to if I have to choose? All the questions will fade away.

For the community, such an organization would open the door to more sponsorship possibilities. Sponsors would now be getting in on an organized set of tournaments instead of just one. Also streams would likely begin getting more viewers as players would take events more seriously. Increased sponsorships and streams means that more awareness will be brought to the scene. More awareness means growth. More growth, sponsorships, and streams means that their will be more big events. Also hosting a Regional or National won't be as risky of a venture as it used to be.

Now their are cons, well actually more of concerns. The first concerns is that a structure so large demands a high level of organization. A high level of organization is easily obtained by becoming rigid and controlled. One of the benefits our games have is their flexibility in characters, stages, in rules. TOs are able to create a ruleset that best matches their area. Likely local TOs will be a bit resistant to the idea of having to follow a set of rules (In fact I think we saw this with the Unity ruleset). I think at the very least locals and possibly states should allow the ruleset to be a bit more flexible and lax. Of course at the higher end regionals and nationals there would need to be a standard. The other concern is such an organiztion could become very tight nit or closed. This isn't how esports should be. We should be welcoming of new TOs and players. I think the group would have to strive to be welcoming, encouraging, and make space for new TOs to arise. The last concern is implosion. With so many people working together, butting heads is naturally going to happen. Hurt feelings will lead to divides which eventually leads to collapse. It would have to be kept very mature and very professional at the upper levels. As well as very open and collaborative.

To me that is a lot of advantages for a few cons that likely could be avoided. The main issue though is that this would need a huge amount of organazation, collaboration, and work. Will TOs and the community be willing to do this with so much daunting work just to even get started?

Then we have the question of how do we even start in the first place? I think a bottom up approach is best. Start with uniting locals, then states, then regionals, then the nationals. Before that the groundwork needs to be lain though. Willing TOs should start an organized group. That will have some governance. Then progressive and proactive local TOs will need to start building their local area and tournaments into more unified events. The locals TOs should then report their progress to the group for feedback and encouragement. Once locals are arranged seasonal circuits should begin. After a season or two the circuits should then start connecting with each other. Over time the process will become natural and it will simply be connecting the regions together.

 

[Ryuker]

Liking a lot of the ideas in this thread. Especially the last post that kinda summarizes it.
The advantages sound very appealing, especially a more organized united scene coming across more professional to potential sponsors and players having more reason to attend more events. Also like the idea of crowning a seasons champ since it's a lot more justifiable then arguing who is the absolute best after every big national each time.

I share the same concerns though regarding the organisational structure but that's why I like the idea of implementing it gradually on the local level first and reviewing that progress rather then forcing it down everyone's throat in one go.

Biggest concern in my mind is the increase in workload it could present for the ones that already have a big workload as it is, with the uncertainty of it having any real return since the advantages are just speculation right now and the most obvious benefit 'improve seeding' isn't that big of a issue right now.

I don't think the number gathering is that big of a deal. Sure in the beginning collecting all the data will be a lot of work but as you learn what data is important and the formula's to derive them you can automate a great deal of it. We have enough tech savy members of the community that would be willing to look into implementations for that. The non digital part of it would be the most labor intensive though and I have my doubts if players are willing to commit to that.

What I'm kinda wondering about is if this would only focus on the high to pro players. I think those already have plenty incentive to attend events and do. It's the mid to low level players that need more incentive and are likely to drop out of the scene. It would be nice to have some form of seeing your growth/ show your achievements/ have something to reach for even though your likely not to be part of the top 32. Or am I wrong about that?

Interested to see if this gets of the ground in some form and what form it will take.