• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Why Brinstar Should be Banned (or Jungle Japes should be added to to the stage list)

Status
Not open for further replies.

SaveMeJebus

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
4,371
Brinstar is a stage that gives way too much of an advantage to aerial characters, characters that can shark and characters that can scrooge. Some people may argue that other legal stages such as Delfino Plaza and Halberd also give these characters these same advantages and yet, they are not banned. However, there is a big difference between the advantages gained from stages like Halberd or Delfino and the and the advantages gained from a stage like Brinstar

First, let us discuss the advantages that this stage gives to aerial characters. Characters that primarily play in the air have no trouble with the rugged terrain of Brinstar since they rarely will spend time on the ground. This however, is not the case for characters who primarily play on the ground since they have to not only deal with their opponent, but the stage as well.

Now, let us discuss the advantages that this stage gives to characters who can shark. Characters that can shark have an advantage in this stage because they get the opportunity to attack their opponent with vary little risk. Since Brinstar is a small stage, this forces players to retreat to platforms which puts them at a greater disadvantage. The lava my stop them from sharking temporarily, but it does little to prevent sharking overall since the opponent can still shark for more than 70% of the match. Also, one things people forget to mention is how easily sharking opponents can refresh their moves. All they have to do is hit the stage from below. Characters that are on stage can also refresh their moves using the stage. The difference is that they have to be a lot more cautious.

Finally, lets discuss the advantages this stage gives to characters who can Scrooge. Scrooging is a powerful tactic. Many characters can do little to stop this tactic without putting themselves at risk. The few characters that can punish this without risking themselves somehow do so through the use of projectiles. As many of you may know, Brinstar has these things (I will call them pillars) that connect the two outer platforms to the stage. These pillars stop any projectiles from hitting the scroogee. This makes Brinstar the the hardest stage to combat Scrooging. In order for a player to stop the opponent from scrooging, they must first destroy these pillars. Forcing a player to destroy an object (not one, but two) in order for them to get a chance to attack ? It seems pretty obvious who has the advantage in this situation.

These advantages on their own aren't that much of a problem. But when you have all three in one stage, that's when the problems arise. I hope that this may change your mind about the legitimacy of this stage.

EDIT: I think that Brinstar and Jungle Japes would make great counter picks if they are used in the same stage list. Both stages are Great at what they do. Brinstar is a great stage for characters who mostly play in the air. Jungle Japes is a great stage for characters who mostly play on the ground. Characters who are great in one are usually bad in the other (although, DK is great in both).

When you have both of these stages together, even a character like MK doesn't seem to have as much of an advantage as he used to. MK doesn't seem to be as great on Jungle Japes as he is on other stages. He may even have to worry about certain characters that can give him trouble there.

I honestly can't see how you can allow one of these stages and not the other. They both seem to go great together
 

milesg2g

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
2,335
Location
EA, Georgia
Bloodynite wrote at 7:25 PM on Feb 2, 2011 :
its a good stage for ganon, your argument is invalid
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,626
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
This thread is awful.

This entire thing can be defeated in 3 counter-points.

1) Ground characters are bad in the air. This is not news, it's an archetype weakness. Deal with it.

2) Sharking is a strong strategy, no doubt. So is camping. So is running away with lasers. Are any of these strats unbeatable? No, so don't ban or limit them.

3) Best scrooging stage? Are you KIDDING ME? This stage is possibly one of the WORST scrooging stages. The acid constantly interferes, the blast zones make it extremely dangerous to mess up, and the platforms actual AID you in combatting the scroogee. Find me a legitimate tournament match of someone scrooging on Brinstar, maybe I'll believe this then.

Bad thread is bad.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
I'm gonna ask one question for the people who want the stage banned.

If MK was gone, would this stage be acceptable?

Raziek where have you been, I've missed your insight on stages. D:
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,626
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
If MK was gone, they'd ***** about Wario.

As for me, I've been off in the land of "barely giving a ****", since the BBRRC is laughable, and my interest in Brawl is sharply declining as MVC3 grows ever closer.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,626
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
*points at that one Crew battle where DMG basically played his campiest game ever, thanks to no timer.*

It's completely beatable, but people will still ***** and try to use it as a reason to ban the stage.

Just like scrooging.
 

Seagull Joe

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
10,388
Location
Maryland
NNID
SeagullJoe
Brinstar sucks. I didn't read the OP, but I can already guess what it says regardless. I agree with Jebus for once.
 

SaveMeJebus

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
4,371
This thread is awful.

This entire thing can be defeated in 3 counter-points.

1) Ground characters are bad in the air. This is not news, it's an archetype weakness. Deal with it.

2) Sharking is a strong strategy, no doubt. So is camping. So is running away with lasers. Are any of these strats unbeatable? No, so don't ban or limit them.

3) Best scrooging stage? Are you KIDDING ME? This stage is possibly one of the WORST scrooging stages. The acid constantly interferes, the blast zones make it extremely dangerous to mess up, and the platforms actual AID you in combatting the scroogee. Find me a legitimate tournament match of someone scrooging on Brinstar, maybe I'll believe this then.

Bad thread is bad.
1) MK. That is all that needs to be said to prove this wrong.

2)This is a strategy that comes from a stage, not character design

3) Acid doesn't matter if it can't stop a player from scrooging the majority of the match.
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,186
Location
Rainbow Cruise
I'm kind of on the fence about brinstar being banned, but this thread is pretty terrible as well as the arguments being made and does little to support banning brinstar
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
9,632
I'm not mad and me having to pick up MK to win just proves my point
LOL you have no idea what your talking about!!!

if only MK can beat a strategy done by MK then MK should be banned!
 

SaveMeJebus

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
4,371
LOL you have no idea what your talking about!!!

if only MK can beat a strategy done by MK then MK should be banned!
But it's where this strategy is being done that is the problem. It's beatable in any other place
 

Yink

The Robo-PSIentist
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
7,419
Location
Osaka, Japan
NNID
SSBYink
1) MK. That is all that needs to be said to prove this wrong.

2)This is a strategy that comes from a stage, not character design

3) Acid doesn't matter if it can't stop a player from scrooging the majority of the match.
What? It stops tons of scrooging haha. I mean I'm not going to lie that I'm a little biased because I use Ness (and it's my best stage), but it sure stops me from scrooging (you know, what with the whole "you have to get on the platforms and when the acid gets to that part you don't have a whole lot of room to move around").

Also you really didn't talk about his other points, which I was really curious to see your remarks to...
 

Yink

The Robo-PSIentist
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
7,419
Location
Osaka, Japan
NNID
SSBYink
Oh and btw:

. . .

3) Best scrooging stage? Are you KIDDING ME? This stage is possibly one of the WORST scrooging stages. The acid constantly interferes, the blast zones make it extremely dangerous to mess up, and the platforms actual AID you in combatting the scroogee. Find me a legitimate tournament match of someone scrooging on Brinstar, maybe I'll believe this then.
Please talk about the other points besides the acid. You really didn't. I'm actually curious.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
The traits that make MK so good at sharking and scrooging aren't present in any other characters. He is basically a flying supermarth. People might complain about Wario, but Wario does what he does above the stage.

Brinstar can be a big time campy time wasting stage like many other stages (delfino, ps1 and 2), but the stage itself isnt broken.
 

Life

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
5,264
Location
Grieving No Longer
You missed the point.

"MK is unbeatable on Brinstar due to sharking"

Well, MK is unbeatable everywhere else due to perfect planking (and I could say IDC, but let's not go there). Sure, MKs are still beaten in those places, because they can't/don't pplank. But MKs also get beaten on Brinstar all the time (usually due to sharking fail). We have LGLs, sure, but let's not beat around the bush: without MK, a LGL is not needed, and LGL does more collateral damage than an MK-only limit or a straight-up ban. LGL as it exists now is a band-aid. (And btw, how do you propose to shark all day as MK? You can only stay under the stage for so long. You either have to SL onstage (leaving you open to punishment depending on where you do it) or grab the ledge (LGL). And then what happens when the lava rises?)

tl;dr The bat is overpowered. Get used to it, he's not getting banned (I'm actually neutral on MK-ban, I think I could argue it either way).
 

SaveMeJebus

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
4,371
You missed the point.

"MK is unbeatable on Brinstar due to sharking"

Well, MK is unbeatable everywhere else due to perfect planking (and I could say IDC, but let's not go there). Sure, MKs are still beaten in those places, because they can't/don't pplank. But MKs also get beaten on Brinstar all the time (usually due to sharking fail). We have LGLs, sure, but let's not beat around the bush: without MK, a LGL is not needed, and LGL does more collateral damage than an MK-only limit or a straight-up ban. LGL as it exists now is a band-aid. (And btw, how do you propose to shark all day as MK? You can only stay under the stage for so long. You either have to SL onstage (leaving you open to punishment depending on where you do it) or grab the ledge (LGL). And then what happens when the lava rises?)

tl;dr The bat is overpowered. Get used to it, he's not getting banned (I'm actually neutral on MK-ban, I think I could argue it either way).
I don't see any REAL reason why a tournament host would use a LGL other than the fact that it makes the game more fun to play (according to some people). I say this because you are right in the fact that a LGL does nothing to stop MK from actually planking. Also, most tourney hosts don't listen to the BBR about not using a LGL and yet, they use one. They could go one step further and just put a LGL on MK only, but they don't. I always wanted to prove how hard it is to beat a character (other than MK) that is planking, but I can't because of the LGL
 

Kole

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
1,434
Location
UCLA
don't take away Brinstar, it's Lucas's safe haven

except vs. a lot of characters
 

ぱみゅ

❤ ~
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
10,010
Location
Under your skirt
NNID
kyo.pamyu.pamyu
3DS FC
4785-5700-5699
Switch FC
SW 3264 5694 6605
This thread is bad... Arguments for ban are weak, and they involve MK everytime....
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
12,542
Location
RPV, California
NNID
A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
Bloodynite wrote at 7:25 PM on Feb 2, 2011 :
its a good stage for ganon, your argument is invalid
On the contrary, this is a terrible stage for Ganon. One extremely situational and risky gimmick that MIGHT result in a free kill =/= good stage for Ganon.

Ganon does kinda like the lava (strictly for recovery! It's awful for Ganon outside of that) and the low ceiling, but the terrain messes him up BADLY. Not being able to consistently retreat D-air hurts a lot, and uneven terrain makes it even harder for Ganon to hit short characters.

Honestly I feel what makes MK broken on Brinstar isn't necessarily the fact he can shark (although it doesn't make things better). It's the low ceilings and narrow blastzones and how much easier it is for MK to score kills from accidents. Seriously, it's stupidly easy for MK to get a kill on this stage. Although MK cannot shark during the lava rises, he has a lot of options for punishing people who desperately need to avoid the lava. As if getting Shuttle Loop gimped wasn't bad enough on regular stages...

That being said, aside from MK who has unrivaled platform control strategies, I feel the one character who benefits most from Brinstar is Mario. Every non-MK matchup is better for Mario on Brinstar. Low ceilings are **** for Mario, given that he has a lot of KO moves that are easy to land, but simply don't kill quite early enough. Having all three Smashes killing at 100-120 reliably is ****, and having B-throw being viable for kills at around 140 is even better. Mario's projectile is also nearly perfect for camping on the side platforms, and his D-air is also amazing for platform pressure (SH D-air for low platforms, fullhop D-air for top platform, the best part is on a read, he can punish jump out of shield attempts).
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
4,665
Location
Australia
Not really, if the mk knows how to play on RC really well its worse then brinstar for lots of characters
I'd say it's the other way around.

If the other player doesn't know how to play on RC than it's worse than Brinstar against MK, but once they learn the stage it shouldn't be too bad for most characters.

@A2ZOMG
Ganon needs all the situational gimmicks he can get really, Brinstar allows him to pressure opponents better than normal due to the lava as well doesn't it?

I wouldn't say it's his best stage or anything but it's above average imo.
 

DunnoBro

The Free-est
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
2,864
Location
College Park, MD
NNID
DunnoBro
No, Ganon really is bad on brinstar. A big chunk of his most reliable playstyle (s) is thrown out the window. He's just harder to kill here, really.
This stage can be a lot of fun in non-mk matchups. Too bad it's enough to drive anyone crazy against a mk who knows this stage. how to play mk.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom